The Fierce Legal Battle at the Heart of the Fight Over Reclining Airline Seats (slate.com) 471
An excerpt from Slate's interview with law professor Michael Heller, who has co-written a book called 'Mine!: How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives': Heller: Just to give you a concrete example, there's a guy named James Beach who was flying from Boston to Denver, and he had actually a little plastic clamp called a Knee Defender, which you can buy online. It's really very effective. You stick it on the seat in front of you, on the little tray table, and it keeps the seat in front of you from leaning back. On this particular flight, the woman in front of him tried to lean back. She couldn't; she realized what was wrong. She asked him to take them off. He didn't comply. She turned around and threw her water at him. The pilot did an emergency landing right away. They were taken off the flight. The plane went on to Denver an hour and 38 minutes late.
But those little Knee Defenders turn out to reveal a tremendous amount about the ownership conflicts that are all through our lives. The woman in front is saying, "That space behind my seat, it's mine, because the little button reclines the seat." And the guy behind, like the kids in the playground, he's saying, "No, it was mine. I had it first, for my laptop," or "I possessed it first with my knees." So that wedge of space is an ownership battle, it turns out, between attachment and possession and first-in-time.
When I talk to audiences about that conflict, I always poll them, and it's amazing to me that invariably half say the person in front is in the right, and half say the person in back is in the right. What's most amazing is how each side is just amazed that anybody else could have a different view. It feels and looks and seems so obvious, what's mine, the same way it is to toddlers on a playground. But that little conflict on the airplane seat is not just an accident, it turns out. It's deliberately engineered by the airlines so they can sell that same space twice. Most of us are just polite; we try to work it out, and that's true in all of the ownership conflicts we go through throughout our day, throughout our lives, in the Starbucks line, to line up at Disney World.
Anywhere that we're trying to make something mine, our experience is being engineered and designed by some owner to shape our behavior. And on the airplane seat, the design is to get us to fight with each other instead of being mad at the airlines, to not realize that they're selling that same space twice. And what they're using is one of the most advanced tools of ownership design that Jim and I have uncovered in doing this work, which is what we call strategic ambiguity. Ownership is ambiguous a lot more often than people realize. And that ambiguity is really valuable, in this case to the airlines.
But those little Knee Defenders turn out to reveal a tremendous amount about the ownership conflicts that are all through our lives. The woman in front is saying, "That space behind my seat, it's mine, because the little button reclines the seat." And the guy behind, like the kids in the playground, he's saying, "No, it was mine. I had it first, for my laptop," or "I possessed it first with my knees." So that wedge of space is an ownership battle, it turns out, between attachment and possession and first-in-time.
When I talk to audiences about that conflict, I always poll them, and it's amazing to me that invariably half say the person in front is in the right, and half say the person in back is in the right. What's most amazing is how each side is just amazed that anybody else could have a different view. It feels and looks and seems so obvious, what's mine, the same way it is to toddlers on a playground. But that little conflict on the airplane seat is not just an accident, it turns out. It's deliberately engineered by the airlines so they can sell that same space twice. Most of us are just polite; we try to work it out, and that's true in all of the ownership conflicts we go through throughout our day, throughout our lives, in the Starbucks line, to line up at Disney World.
Anywhere that we're trying to make something mine, our experience is being engineered and designed by some owner to shape our behavior. And on the airplane seat, the design is to get us to fight with each other instead of being mad at the airlines, to not realize that they're selling that same space twice. And what they're using is one of the most advanced tools of ownership design that Jim and I have uncovered in doing this work, which is what we call strategic ambiguity. Ownership is ambiguous a lot more often than people realize. And that ambiguity is really valuable, in this case to the airlines.
A serious issue for taller people (Score:5, Insightful)
As a 6'5" person, I don't need the plastic device to block reclining. I don't have a choice in the matter. But I've still had people try to insist that they should be able to recline their seat.
Ditto (Score:3)
My seat defender is my femur. Go ahead and try to recline. Unless I origami my legs under the seat nothing is going to happen.
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That plastic device may still help... I've been woken from a dead sleep before by the person in front of me slamming their full body weight into the seat, not understanding why it won't recline, and later started using them when in regular coach to reduce the chances of it again.
On the plus side: Flight attendants often come running when you scream out in pain as a result.
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Same with 6'5" me. I had a guy banging my knees over and over again one time. When I asked him to stop, he told me if the seat reclined, he should be able to do it.
I said, "Why don't I stand up, you get the seat the way that you want it, and I'll try to get back in." I stood up to my full height, bending my neck sideways with my ear hitting the ceiling
The guy said, "Oh ... ... can we switch seats?"
Re:A serious issue for taller people (Score:4, Insightful)
The root cause comes down to in a race to the bottom, airlines are using planes designed for X people to transport X *1.5 people.
Airline tickets simply need to cost more and put fewer people on each flight.
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Airline tickets simply need to cost more and put fewer people on each flight.
There are already tickets that cost more. They're called Economy+ or Premium or whatever. Or business class, which costs what flying cost 50 years ago.
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I have a bad back and sitting bolt upright on a long haul flight is a problem. Reclining a little really helps.
The issue is that airlines don't offer enough legroom. You can pay extra if you need it, but if the seats are that close together perhaps the argument should be that you should get more due to your size, just like (in Europe at least) someone with a wheelchair can bring it on at no extra cost.
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the argument should be that you should get more due to your size, just like... someone with a wheelchair
*roflmfao*
The face of slashdot, right here.
Big and Tall Rights -- Vary seat sizes (Score:4, Interesting)
One problem is the one-size-fits-all mentality. The difference in height between the smallest and largest person is pretty extreme. They should have different sized seats for different heights and widths without charging extra, especially for long flights. You'd get measured before boarding. The measurement would be valid for a year so that frequent flyers don't have to repeat.
The average number of seats will be about the same such that the airline is not losing seats, because some will be smaller than the current default and some will be larger, averaging out.
It may be a problem for couples and families with small children who need close monitoring, as mixing seat sizes per row would be tricky. Maybe alternate sizing so that varied couples and families with older children can be just one row apart.
Re:A serious issue for taller people (Score:5, Interesting)
Tall people on average earn more money. Therefore they can afford to pay more for an exit row or business class seat.
"each additional centimeter of height is associated with a 1.30% increase in annual income."
If you're 195.6cm tall you are 20cm taller than the avg male height of 175cm. 20* 1.3% = 26% increased income.
The median US income is $36k a year * 26% = +$9,360
A premium economy seat is usually about $100 more per round trip. That means you can fly 96 times a year and still come out even.
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Well, since we're into "why don'ts"...
Why doesn't the airline prominently publish a clear policy on who wins in these conflicts? Why doesn't the airline clearly publish the actual dimensionfs of the space you're buying with any given seat? For that matter, why doesn't the airline clearly publish the algorithm it's using to price the seat? And why doesn't the government force the airline to do those things?
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"Why doesn't the airline prominently publish a clear policy on who wins in these conflicts?"
Because then can't play it both ways at once. As the summary says, "And on the airplane seat, the design is to get us to fight with each other instead of being mad at the airlines, to not realize that they're selling that same space twice." If they clearly say who's in the right, they can't claim the space belongs to both people to convince people that they're getting more space than they're actually getting.
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I usually do now, but why should I have to pay more money for how I was born? It wasn't an issue many years ago, but as the airlines have shrunken space to make more money it has become one. I hate the idea of insisting I get upgraded because of my height, but the alternative is that I am forced to pay more because of their profit motive.
Re:A serious issue for taller people (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I'm 6'4" myself. But I don't think it's obvious that all spaces should be sized for me, nor that I should pay the same as everybody else. Space and weight on airplanes have easily measured direct costs. If I cost more to carry, why shouldn't I pay more?
I also eat more than a smaller person, but nobody suggests that food prices should be adjusted so that I pay the same.
None of this, of course, excuses an airline trying to muddy the waters and profit from information asymmetry.
Re:A serious issue for taller people (Score:4, Informative)
If seats had always been that way, I might agree, but this has changed since I first started flying, and while I now expect it, when I first came across the issue, it was a shock. They never warned me about the change and discovering the issue for the first time on a 10-hour flight was not pleasant for me or the person in front of me. And even now, the issue varies even with the same airline. I have to go to third party sites to see if there is enough legroom because they deliberately withhold that information. If they were transparent about it, I could use that information to choose between airlines. It's why, if I have the choice, I use Southwest.
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Rarely is there a "need" to fly. It is almost always a "want".
Some travel is leisure travel. Obviously not a "need" as the destination activity is not a "need".
Some travel is business. Much such travel is not a "need" but rather a desire for the person traveling to maximize profit by meeting (prospective) clients in person vs. via zoom. Of course, since the motive is profit, the person can always forgo a bit of profit and fly business or first class.
Very little travel is a "need" - perhaps a few medical cas
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I'm fine with this the moment they make fat people buy two seats. I'm paying for my whole seat, it's not my fault you spill over, get the fuck out of my seat.
DIY (Score:5, Informative)
Knee Defender [gawkerassets.com]
Odds are that this will get you banned from flights, since it's pretty obvious and if the cabin crew sees it and asks you to remove it, failure to follow CC instructions is a federal offense.
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The bottle trick is not very effective because there is a good chance that as the person in front rocks back and forth trying to figure out why their seat won't recline it will slip out, possibly flying towards your face. Takes up some of the room for your laptop too.
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Well over a decade ago, I accidentally opened my laptop a bit too far on a flight and the screen got caught under the lip where the tray table goes. This was fine until the person in front of me tried to recline. Rather then checking to see why the seat wouldn't fully recline, they started slamming themselves into the seat to get it to recline. (The laptop was fine, aside from a bit of cracked plastic. And the person in front of me was able to recline after I moved it, though I had to recline too. Laptops w
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Re:DIY (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been asked to remove my Knee Defenders before, and quickly & calmly noted my height (as tall as you) and how they are there to try to prevent injury to my knees. Each and every time the flight attendant allowed me to keep them in place, realizing the person in front of me, not I was being unreasonable and a potential issue. Heck, on several occasions the person in front of me was moved to another seat.
I've never been arrested, warned or banned... odd that eh?
It's really very simple. (Score:3, Interesting)
If the plane seats allow for reclining, you don't have a right to block me from reclining. Period. I paid for a reclining seat on airlines that have reclining seats. If that bothers you and you are behind me, you can fly airlines that do not have reclining seats. You actually did not pay for the space in front of you; you paid for a seat.
I am not sure if they do, but Airlines should be advertising or letting folks know if the seats recline on their airplanes. If they don't, this is something easy to regulate, as we regulate a bunch of things airlines are required to let folks know about. But at the end of the day, on airlines with reclining seats, I am paying for a reclining seat, and you not allowing me to recline is you depriving me from what I paid for. This seems like a simple legal issue to me.
However, the last two flights I was on (United and Alaska) did not have reclining seats, so this seems like a more common thing than it was before.
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If that bothers you and you are behind me, you can fly airlines that do not have reclining seats.
I am not sure if they do, but Airlines should be advertising or letting folks know if the seats recline on their airplanes.
Uh-huh.
Translation: "I don't know if it's even possible to figure out in advance, but anyway, the onus is on you to do so".
And of course, even in the fantasyland where airlines are required to offer this information, that still doesn't work for routes that aren't heavily served. Or are you proposing that airlines double the amount of flights to and from podunk flyover airports, one reclining, one non-reclining, just to accommodate everyone?
Poorly-reasoned thinking like this kinda end up making the Knee Defe
Re:It's really very simple. (Score:4, Interesting)
On the other hand, I NEVER recline my seat. It's more important to me to not annoy people than to insist that I am right. Other people however think that being an annoying asshole is their god given right, which trumps their goal of maintaining a harmonious society (if they ever had that goal to start with).
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If the 5' 1" people fit in seats that are closer together, then let them do it.
(I'm above average height btw.)
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Are you short or tall. (Score:3)
If you are short for the seat, the back of your knees are against the chair, putting stress on your back, so to be more comfortable you want to lay back. If you are tall your knees are already lifted upward and squished against the chair, so it is more comfortable sitting more upright.
The real party who is in the wrong is the airlines, who try to cram too many people in a small area for hours long flights.
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The problem is that people are not putting up with the discomfort. Hence why some people bring in things to prevent someone from reclining, and the other getting angry to the guy who stops them. While they are saving money, they still spent a lot of money for the flight, more than what most people normally want to spend. So because they have spent so much, they still feel entitled to a better experience, and some people get angry when they don't get what they feel like they had paid for.
Back when I was
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The problem is twofold...
1) people compare products purely based on price, even products of differing spec can be considered equivalent.
2) greedy companies will often try to sell their lower quality products at a higher price if they can get away with it. Because of this, a higher quality brand has to earn a reputation before anyone is willing to pay their higher prices.
When i was a kid, my mom's laundry machine was often faulty and we'd have to take our laundry to my grandma's house, her machine was never
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But today, the cheap machine and the 4K machine are the same under the shell and you can't tell until you own it for a few years. The great 4K machine your neighbor bought may or may not have been "value engineered" by the time you buy one at the same price.
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Thing is it's not 100 seats verses 150 seats, it's 200 cattle class seats vs 208 cattle class seats. Taking out one row would give everyone an extra few centimetres.
Re: Are you short or tall. (Score:2)
I can't wait until airlines cram 500 people in a plane and force them to wear straight jackets and ball gags throughout the flight. Maybe strap people to the wings as well.
They would do this if they could.
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If only I could see the leg space while selecting a flight, I'd be happy to pay 10% extra for 10% more, space (specified in cm). But that's not how it works. You can choose between standard (whatever that may be for that airline and route), an emergency exit seat for a surcharge that's quite a bit more than 10%, or business class for triple the price.
Re:Are you short or tall. (Score:4, Insightful)
Bandwidth Contention Ratios (Score:2)
In this specific case it would be interesting to see what claims regarding legroom the airline made for the class of seats in question. Then, if the act of reclining the seat r
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>>But beyond that, the airline deliberately [we might say knowingly, since surely they specified the layout of the aircraft when ordering]
Most passenger jets have slotted rails in the floor, which the airline can adjust to get more seats into the plane, resulting in taller people's knees and shins hitting the seat in front of them
They can also configure them for more leg room, but that means less ticketing money per flight so...
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On newer Japanese high speed trains they have a plastic cupped back that the seat reclines into, so the back of the seat is fixed and doesn't move at all. Of course they have a lot more leg room on the trains.
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The claims of ISPs are often subject to technical details that users aren't even aware of, and extend beyond the physical line between you and the isp...
Is there any traffic shaping or prioritization, what is the contention ratio, how good are the peering and transit routes, do you have routable addressing or cgnat, do you have ipv6, dynamic or static addressing etc.
It's a matter of being polite. (Score:4, Informative)
The flight etiquette is that you should not recline your seat during meal time, but at night time it is perfectly acceptable.
The knee defender is also banned on many airlines. Buying that pretty much means you are a jerk.
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I never was a fan of movie theaters but I hear they are now like a chatty cafeteria that happens to have a Movie screen. Etiquette and respect decline each year - now I sound like an old guy.
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If the seat infront of you is reclined and yours isn't, you end up with the back of the seat in your face too. Often if the seat infront is reclined you're forced to do the same. If you're not able to do so, then it becomes especially uncomfortable.
I'm right (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately, the ultimate arbiter of who is right in this case is the airline. They have provided the person in front with the ability to recline their seat in a way that is unpleasant for the person behind. They did not sell the space that is reclined into to the person behind; the person behind knew full well that they were buying space that might be used by the person in front. It's obvious that they knew that if they acquired knee defenders. If they want more space, they can buy a higher priced ticket, or opt for a row behind seats that don't recline, such as the wing exit row in some planes.
That takes care of who has what right. It does not adjudicate who is the asshole. If the person in front refuses a reasonable request not to recline for some period of time, then they are the asshole. If the person behind prevents reclining without any negotiation, then they are the asshole. If both, then they are both assholes.
Next case, bailiff.
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But, to complicate matters, the airline may have also sold the seat behind to a person whose body size is such that reclining is no longer physically possible for the person in front. I wonder if one could have a class-action lawsuit on the basis of a reasonable expectation that all the major functions of the seat work correctly.
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Of all days not to have mod points. I'm wondering if they stopped teaching the concept of "sharing" in kindergarten at some point.
The only answer. (Score:2)
Re:The only answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
The only answer to this,
No. The answer to this is to restore flying to its former glory. Give people legroom and stop making these planes cattle cars.
Re:The only answer. (Score:4, Insightful)
Then prepare to more than twice the price, times about 8-9 for inflation. Your discount $239 fare would have cost about $485 in 1960, and inflation would bring that to $3,880 or more. Additionally it would have been slower, louder inside the cabin, people would have been smoking, and there would have been multiple stops. Oh, and there would probably have only been one or two flights per day.
Ah, the 'Good Old Days' (TM), damn they were awful!
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It's meaningful to me, I don't buy a jumbo jet's-worth of fuel at a time. I buy a ticket. I'm glad to pay $239 rather than $3880 even if it's not as comfortable, and I'm **really** glad the cabin isn't full of cigarette smoke any more.
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People say they want that, but they don't really. You see an airline could easily do that . . . but they'd need to charge more. And time and again when faced with comfort or savings, people have proven that they'd rather save the money.
I can accept that about myself: sure extra legroom and such would be great, but when it comes time to actually buy the tickets and I see "Bob's Discount Airline with tiny seats" has round trip tickets for $125 and "Dave's Comfy Airline Deluxe" has tickets for $400, I'm goin
Re:The only answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. The answer to this is to restore flying to its former glory. Give people legroom and stop making these planes cattle cars.
Every airline offers you this, but you need to be prepared for former glory ticket prices as well. Why do you buy such cheap shit only to anger yourself? They are literally providing exactly the service people want. People wanted cheaper, so airlines made it cheaper. A small subset of people wanted more space, so airline made some of the seats larger and charge a premium for them.
Your poor life choices are not the airline's fault.
Well the lady should have called the steward (Score:2)
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The tray table moves with the seat back, have you never noticed that?
The answer (Score:2)
Here's the answer from the article:
"there is a law for the airplane seat. Every airline has a rule, which is that the person with the button can lean back, but they are super deliberate about keeping that rule quiet. They do want the ambiguity, because the ambiguity is quite valuable to them. So they do put the pressure on the flight attendants to solve it, and they often aren’t sure of the rule themselves."
So it's not a fierce legal battle. It's solved.
geometry (Score:2)
I see the comments by taller people about blocking the recline, but does the geometry of the situation really make that much difference at knee height?
If you deliberately raise your knees up, maybe. But the recline is mostly at headrest level, at knee level it is pretty minimal unless you choose to make a bad situation worse.
It does affect using a laptop, but so far I haven't seen anyone complain about that here
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The distance between knees and an upright seat can be pretty small, so yeah, reclining moves the headrest more but it can still eat that knee clearance pretty quickly.
They should give people a choice (Score:2)
Have a section that can recline, a section that can't, seats that can recline behind seats that can't are premium seats, seats that can't recline behind seats that can are the cheapest. Make it explicit that people are allowed to recline if their seat can do it.
Have airlines optimize the configuration based on passenger preferences, and profit.
Flying is such a shitty experience now (Score:3)
The true solution (Score:3)
Re:The true solution (Score:4, Informative)
Seat recline is an obsolete function (Score:3)
The recline button was designed for the days when there was more seat pitch (distance between seat rows) so that a reclining passenger did not get significantly in the way of the person behind. Today there is not enough room to recline.
Flying is too phy$ical (Score:2)
To hell with flying. Between this, the security line gropings, the TSA helping themselves to the contents of your luggage (and of course, breaking guitars), passengers and even crew flaking out, it's not worth it. Amtrak is much easier to deal with even if it does take a lot longer in most instances.
Of course the annual Thanksgiving and Christmas cattle runs are coming up, so we will be treated to fresh new videos of more people flaking out in airports and on airplanes.
Do we need an Minimum Airline Seat Pitch law? (Score:3)
Do we need an Minimum Airline Seat Pitch law?
It's the airline's plane. They decide. (Score:2)
Simple enough (Score:3)
The obvious solution is to require that airplane seats "recline" by tilting the seat and keeping the back fixed. Solves complaints between customers and make air travel just a little bit worse, so it's totally a win-win for the airlines.
Strange mixture of entitlement and sociopathy (Score:5, Interesting)
I fly to Florida a lot for work and family...where a lot of the USA's shitty people like to concentrate. Somewhere between 33 and 20% of all flights I take all over the USA has one person who blatantly violates the rules. Boarding zone 4 & 5? He boards in zone 2. He's not disabled...not caring for a baby or disabled person...just a routine business yuppie with a weird sense of entitlement who wants to ensure he gets the most overhead space he can...and most of the time you can get away with it because the flight attendant needs to do her job and can't argue with every man-Karen who thinks the rules don't apply to him. At first I noticed it and thought it was odd. He stood out. He wasn't with a baby or an elderly relative. All the legit early boarders were relaxed and had a different vibe. These guys always have a hostile confrontational vibe...kind of a psycho look, but in a suburban entitled way, no like the ones that mug you in bad neighborhoods.
So this body language and energy stood out, but what puzzled me most was where I had seen it before...those guys at the gym who lay towels on different pieces of machinery and "defend their territory" at peak hours. Every gym I've been to has at least one. They will literally lay a towel on once piece of weight lifting gear while using another. One guy in a downtown area did it on 4 at a time. If you went near it, seeing an abandoned towel, he'd get really hostile. He wasn't a gym meathead...not even in great shape...just an entitled yuppie with some mental disorder. Because I hate bullies, I have no problems poking the bear, if I need to use the machinery, I'd move his towel to the side and use it. He'd finish his set and get in my face and demand I get up. He'd give body language like he wanted to start a fight. I'm 15 years younger and in much bigger/fitter, so I'd call his bluff. It shifted from aggression to passive aggression. In his brain, he couldn't fathom that other people, who pay the same membership he does, have the same right to use equipment, particularly when he's not using it.
He's an extreme example of someone who can't use a shared resource. They think that just because someone won't arrest you, it's OK. The people who board early are exactly like him, down to all the nuances of body language. That guy using the knee protector is just like him. The Karens who make up excuses to why they're special and can't wear a mask in Trader Joes and end up as viral videos are the same people. That cooper lady who "weaponized racism" in NYC and made a false claim against that black birdwatcher because he wanted her to follow leash laws is the same.
It's some strange mental illness...a mixture of entitlement and sociopathy. Being a large guy, I have a habit of standing up to those sort of people. They remind me of bullies and I fucking hate bullies. But I seem to encounter it more often. I think there's a general trend where people can't share, can't muster minimal empathy needed for a functioning society, etc.
Clamshell Seats (Score:3)
Make it so that reclining moves the seat bottom forward into your legroom. You have full control over how you want to allocate your space, and 0 control over anyone else's. Problem solved.
Normal (Score:3)
"it's amazing to me that invariably half say the person in front is in the right, and half say the person in back is in the right."
50% of people have an IQ over 100, 50% under.
I'll destroy your seat defender (Score:3)
Frankly, I purchased the seat knowing it reclined, and you purchased the seat knowing it reclined. You are decided to deny me a function of the seat I purchased because you don't fit in the seat you purchased. Get an exit row or buy a better seat. I'd like to see what happens when I destroy your seat defender and you lay hands on me.
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Eh, I always take the window seat, but not for the view. I usually sack out on a flight, and fall asleep leaning against the sidewall of the aircraft. If you'd rather me fall asleep leaning on you, cool... but sleeping against the side wall is generally more socially acceptable. (For reference, I tend to fall asleep almost immediately on any aircraft, be it a commercial airliner, helicopter, or military cargo plane).
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Not all seats recline. Not those at the far back of the plane, and not those immediately in front of the emergency exit rows.
There are two types of people when it comes to the seat reclining debate: Those who recognize that not all can recline and doing so may take space from others... and psychopaths.
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Don't children need to fly with an adult?
Maybe next time you can get your mommy to talk to the other person
Re:I'm normally good at staying calm... (Score:4, Insightful)
But if someone pulled a Knee Defender on me, I'd punch the person in the face as hard as I possibly could.
How about we all recline our seats. Take a rest.
Three reasons:
1. Punching someone in the face is assault
3. It will disprove your claim of being good at staying calm.
2. Reclining the seat does not change to position of the knees. The person behind you will still experience the pain and discomfort regardless of how far back they recline their seat. In fact reclining the back is often coupled with pushing the seat forward which will make it even worse.
The fault here is with the airlines. The reclining backs are engineered with some average human in mind that requires certain minimal spacing between seats. As they push the seats closer to stuff more of us in the tube they break the minimal spacing. I also suspect that the "average human" is of a rather short stature. The solution is to enforce a minimal standard with the airlines and when on the plain not be a selfish jerk. Think about the person behind you.
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Don't forget the no-fly list!
Re: I'm normally good at staying calm... (Score:2)
"But if someone pulled a Knee Defender on me, I'd punch the person in the face as hard as I possibly could"
You do that, and you get to be slammed down to the deck and cuffed by an air marshal, and maybe spend time in jail in a strange city because your actions prompted the pilot to do an emergency landing there. Then you will be facing assault charges and maybe federal charges as well.
Good going, sport!
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Part of the new generation that thinks that it's ok to punch people for any provocation but will promptly scream and cry "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!?!?!?!" as soon as the person isn't the punching bag they expected and hits back.
Major lesson to learn: I don't care how big you are or how much you've trained - you throw hands you're always rolling the dice and whether or not you're going to carry an ass whipping for it (not to mention the criminal implications).
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My convenience takes precedence over yours.
Yes, of course. Nobody likes to give in when a confrontation arises.
The point of the article is that the airline knows this and to pack more people on the flight has oversold the space. They have promised both passengers something that they both can not have. Further they know that if anyone carries the conflict too far instead of negotiating, the airline will not be blamed, has the law on their side, and kicks both of them off the flight further deflecting blame from the seating design.
I fondly remem
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**sigh** I remember Eastern Airlines.
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Well there seems to be general lack of politeness.
I normally like my seat reclined. When I do such, I will often recline slowly as to not hurt or startle the person behind me, if I hit some resistance I will stop and go back a little, If they politely ask me not to, I will normally comply. I also don't have much of an issue if the person in front of me reclines, as I am lucky in that aspect that I am not tall enough for it to hit my knees.
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The simple, 100% correct answer is to install those seats that "recline" by making the base of the reclinees seat move forwards instead of making the upright part of their seat tilt backwards.
The reclinee loses their leg room and it doesn't affect the person behind them in the slightest.
Re:Reclining Seats? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Reclining Seats? (Score:5, Informative)
It really is shocking how close together seats are getting. I couldn't believe it the last (and I do mean the last) time I flew United. I am not a claustrophobic person but the thought of sitting sandwiched between those two rows of seats for a 6 hour redeye was not pleasant. There wasn't even room to lean my head on the tray table -- leaning forward slightly put my forehead on the seat in front of me.
Some airlines are still better than that --- I've exclusively flown Southwest (best), Jetblue (pretty good but getting worse) and Alaska for the last few years. But where United goes, the industry will doubtless eventually follow.
Also f*** United.
Re:Reclining Seats? (Score:5, Informative)
Its pretty sad that they both had to get off when she was the one who was behaving in a bad manor.
Better read the whole story [www.cbc.ca]. He started it by tampering with the seat. The woman mentioned to a flight attendant that her seat wouldn't recline. The flight attendant then asked the guy to remove the Knee Defender, which he did. The woman then reclined her seat, he got pissed that she reclined the seat as far as it would go and knicking it into his laptop, then he rammed it forward and slipped the Knee Defender back in. At that point the woman threw water at him.
Seems only fair they both got removed from the flight. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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If reclining is so rare, why did the guy need Knee Defender. Its sad that they both had to get off, and its sadder that everyone had to experience a late flight, but the airline sill fit another row of seats in so I guess somebody got what they wanted.
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What airlines do you fly on?
On every flight I"ve been on in the past decade or more it still remains common to see most seats reclined.
Re:Reclining Seats? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, when someone leans back, it is considered the mark of an inexperienced traveler and the behavior of a jerk.
Or how about they want to take a nap and use the service provided by their ticket (a reclining chair)?
Honestly, I think you're applying your own personal world view to the world. Prior to Covid I flew a good bit and saw plenty of people recline on longer flights. I've never heard of this taboo you talk of and strongly suspect it's something you came up with in your head.
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Well what if the person in front of you wants to take a nap? Now you're comfortable and they're not.
One person or another gets inconvenienced here. I say that it's an offered service and if you have issues with that take it up with the airline.
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Consent over personal (and super tiny) personal space. No matter how uncomfortable they might be not reclining, I am *not* entering their space or their seat. Them reclining though *literally* moves their seat into my space. I think it's perfectly reasonable for us all to consider everyone around us and ourselves to have a little box that is theirs while they exist in it. Say give them an inch in every direction (adjust as possible and correct for the situation, some situations may need more space!). Re
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I think it should be illegal for the chairs to recline.
If they are going to pass any law, they need to pass a law that requires a minimum chair to chair distance. If all airlines have to follow this rule, nobody will have any cost advantage over the other. This space issue has become a race to the bottom (minimum?) between large corporate airlines.
Re: Reclining Seats? (Score:3)
As someone also 6'4 I tilt the seat back to maximize the angular length of space I have, and to reduce the chance of my knees getting banged up. I don't begrudge the person in front of me putting their seat back.
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For daytime, domestic flights, reclining is an extraordinarily rude and terrible practice. As someone who is 6'3", I hate when others do it to me and I refuse to do it to the people behind me. If you want to nap, feel free, but the onus is on you to accept the discomfort in doing so, rather than it being the responsibility of someone behind you to bear the discomfort on your behalf. It's unreasonable to expect that the people behind you should accommodate your activity, in much the same way that it's rude w
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Now, when someone leans back, it is considered the mark of an inexperienced traveler and the behavior of a jerk.
I've flown plenty of times since 9/11, and I've never once seen or experienced this. I lean my seat back without a second thought, and nobody has said squat to me. The people in front of me have leaned their seats back plenty of times, and I've never worried or complained about it. But I do like that you have decided for everybody else how they should or shouldn't use the seat's built-in function that they paid for by sounding like the be-all end-all expert on this subject.
Its pretty sad that they both had to get off when she was the one who was behaving in a bad manor.
The guy physically blocks her s
Re:Reclining Seats? (Score:4, Insightful)
I blame it on the modern "I've got mine and everyone else can go fuck themselves" mindset so common today. Share, people! You're all going to be uncomfortable for the next couple of hours, then it will be over. Just fucking deal with it like adults, don't stake out "your" territory like a bull moose in rut, you'll just piss everyone else off for no reason.
Re: Reclining Seats? (Score:3)
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You paid for a seat that just happens to recline. The few seats that do not recline don't because of safety reasons, not due to price or choice. Courteous people don't do things that they know will make another person completely miserable for a few hours. I'm 6'2 and as I get older and gain more ailments, the more painful it gets when someone reclines in to my lap and the longer after the flight that the discomfort lasts.
Front seats in cars also recline and can slide backwards. Do you push your seat all