Fearing Coronavirus, a Michigan College is Tracking Its Students With a Flawed App (techcrunch.com) 105
Schools and universities across the United States are split on whether to open for the fall semester, thanks to the ongoing pandemic. From a report: Albion College, a small liberal arts school in Michigan, said in June it would allow its nearly 1,500 students to return to campus for the new academic year starting in August. Lectures would be limited in size and the semester would finish by Thanksgiving rather than December. The school said it would test both staff and students upon their arrival to campus and throughout the academic year. But less than two weeks before students began arriving on campus, the school announced it would require them to download and install a contact-tracing app called Aura, which it says will help it tackle any coronavirus outbreak on campus.
There's a catch. The app is designed to track students' real-time locations around the clock, and there is no way to opt out. The Aura app lets the school know when a student tests positive for COVID-19. It also comes with a contact-tracing feature that alerts students when they have come into close proximity with a person who tested positive for the virus. But the feature requires constant access to the student's real-time location, which the college says is necessary to track the spread of any exposure. The school's mandatory use of the app sparked privacy concerns and prompted parents to launch a petition to make using the app optional.
There's a catch. The app is designed to track students' real-time locations around the clock, and there is no way to opt out. The Aura app lets the school know when a student tests positive for COVID-19. It also comes with a contact-tracing feature that alerts students when they have come into close proximity with a person who tested positive for the virus. But the feature requires constant access to the student's real-time location, which the college says is necessary to track the spread of any exposure. The school's mandatory use of the app sparked privacy concerns and prompted parents to launch a petition to make using the app optional.
College education is not a right in the US (Score:2, Insightful)
If the college thinks it needs the data to track/prevent further outbreaks, they can require the students to have the app. If the students don't like the privacy implications, they can (a) find another school or (b) leave their phones in their dorms when they go about. I don't see the actual issue here.
So THAT's how the app is flawed. (Score:5, Insightful)
If the students don't like the privacy implications, they can ... leave their phones in their dorms when they go about.
Or shut them down or disable the app ...
AHA! So THAT's how the app is flawed! It would fail to detect exposure in such circumstances, producing a false sense of security.
Re:College education is not a right in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Your privacy should not be a commodity that you're forced to trade in exchange for services.
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Disagree - people should be generally free to make contracts. Right now there is a potential that handful of sick people could make it impossible to continue operating a college campus. If (private) schools want to impose rules that may help mitigate that risk and students agree to it; I don't see a problem. However if its a change in terms since the student enrolled than I absolutely think they should also be entitled to a pro-rated refund
Re:College education is not a right in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
Except the students are being forced into a sophie's choice between giving up their privacy or making a massively life-changing and expensive change in schools. There are better ways to do contact tracing that protect your privacy and don't force this ridiculous decision on the students. Contracts have negotiations with favorable terms to both parties. This isn't a contract negotiation. This is an ultimatum.
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I agree. College selection is a big and expensive decision such that one shouldn't be coerced by their all-or-nothing sledgehammer. It's a lopsided negotiating position.
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I tend to agree, but how is this policy any different then any other policy on a college campus. If the school decides you can no longer say 'offensive' words while in the dorm and they expell you when you do. Pretty much the same. The problem is , in most univerisy enviorments students are completly helpless to defend themselves agianst 'the system' which generally treats 20 years olds like 3 year olds who can take no personal responsibilty and have no real rights.
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Two wrongs don't make a right. But the "free speech" issue is kind of big side topic. I would note that such speech restrictions do prepare one for the real work world, where fear of company harassment lawsuits often results in an employee getting fired for certain statements. I'm not saying that alone is necessarily reason enough to tolerate it; it's just a point to consider.
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This issue also prepares you for the real world. Sometimes you have to make a choice between two options you don't like. You can either act like an adult, think hard about what is most important to you, and decide based on that. Or, you can whine and cry and stamp your feet about how it isn't fair and someone else should fix the problem so you don't have to take any personal responsibility for your decisions. Choosing the second option comes with free lifetime enrollment in the democrat party.
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With each of these there are specific principles involved and the general principle of learning to deal with annoying organizations. Sometimes the first over-powers the second in importance.
It's my opinion that corporations shouldn't require employees to be tracked outside of work hours as part of their conditions of employment (although there are probably exceptions). If the college said, "you have to switch on (or allow) tracking when ON campus", I'm okay that, but not outside.
Why not? (Score:1)
Your privacy should not be a commodity
Why do you get to decide that for other people?
Other aspects of people are commonly a commodity. People sell access to their own bodies for sex work for example.
Why is privacy something you should not be able to barter?
In fact I would argue it's already done on a massive scale just min terms of actors. Actors chose to eliminate some degree of privacy in their lives in return for recognition, a long tasing benefit... so why is it so different for students to be able t
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Your privacy should not be a commodity
Why do you get to decide that for other people?
Other aspects of people are commonly a commodity. People sell access to their own bodies for sex work for example.
Why is privacy something you should not be able to barter?
Because it isn't really a choice. Voting with your wallet and changing schools is not a quick and easy thing to do, particularly with so little time to do it. There's no trade or bartering here. It's accept the privacy invasion and get the education, or bugger off and lose a year waiting to go elsewhere.
Most students will have no choice. That's why sometimes someone has to say "I'm not going to allow this", to protect those who can't.
With your example, are you suggesting for example, an employer can request
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Because it isn't really a choice. Voting with your wallet and changing schools is not a quick and easy thing to do,
How so? It's actually pretty easy to transfer colleges, people do it all the time. Often you can get a lot of course credit to transfer.
College itself is a pretty long-term affair so it doesn't matter if if takes a semester to move, if you truly feel you need to.
With your example, are you suggesting for example, an employer can request sex from an employee in exchange for a raise?
Do you feel
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According to the article, they're required, so leaving your phone in your dorm is not an allowed option. I bet they're also required to have a phone (a student not having a phone would not be tolerated by this school) and the phone must run one of two (and only two) OSes.
If you aren't doing personal business with either Apple or
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At this point in the year what is a student to do? Admissions process takes time, credits do not transfer a lot of the time, and they are already signed up, took out loans, etc.
This isn't a screw you I'm going to the local supermarket instead of Walmart. This is a bigger life changing event. Maybe they could swing it by next semester but it will likely cost them thousands to make that change.
Simply put, the college has them by the balls.
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I think you meant to post this reply to the person above me?
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wait, how do they know I left my phone in the dorm. ... doesn't it?
Offical: So you spent the last month in your dorm room before you came here?
Student: Yep!.
Offical: what did you do with all that time:
Sudent: I had a big long Sh**t
Offical: I think you are lying
Student: My phone doesn't, It proves where I was
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If the college thinks it needs the data to track/prevent further outbreaks, they can require the students to have the app. If the students don't like the privacy implications, they can (a) find another school or (b) leave their phones in their dorms when they go about. I don't see the actual issue here.
or c: Use a phone that is not compatible with the app. Will Albion give them a phone with service in that case? As for leaving it in the dorm, I'd suggest periodically during the day wandering around so you leave a "normal" movement pattern and any extracurricular activities thus are easier to mask.
give them a phone with service?? just add it loan (Score:2)
give them a phone with service?? They just say you need to buy one and we can just add it to your student loan
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State College are part of the govment so rules do (Score:2)
State College are part of the govment so rules do not let them to just do anything and the laws covering privacy to apply.
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State colleges are usually separate from the government in Michigan, per their charters. Of course, Albion College is a private college in any case, so it doesn't matter.
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it does matter because the students are the paying customers, a vendor is getting big for their britches here
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Your comments relate to a context that we're not discussing though. We're talking about governments in this particular subthread.
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nope, the state schools are separate entities and the students are paying customers too.
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The top post of this thread is indicating ineloquently that state schools have to follow the constitutions because they're an arm of the government. I'm countering that (a) in Michigan, this isn't true, and (b) this isn't a state school. So, this discussion isn't about consumer choice or paying customers at all. It's not that your points aren't valid; it's that you're spamming them everywhere else, and we can talk about them in a sub-thread where it's being discussed. In this sub-thread, your observations a
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wrong, my point about students being paying customers is appropriate for this thread. if you don't appreciate the truth that's your problem.
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This is NOT a State College, it is PRIVATE
Phone required to attend college? (Score:2)
So if it is problem , what do they do if you tell them you DON'T OWN A PHONE !? Is that not an allowed status anymore? Do they sell the required hardware in the bookstore? The distance between I don't own a phone, and I don't own a phone you have any business knowing I own is not very far.
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Wrong. Students are PAYING CUSTOMERS. Tail is trying to wag dog here.
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Re:College education is not a right in the US (Score:4, Insightful)
Not only that, but what happens if someone mingles around the campus all over, and then falsly reports that they've tested positive. No one has discussed the possible negative ramifications of someone falsely reporting that they've tested positive and sitting back and watching the chaos insue when half the school's students get alerted and have to then get tested themselves. This theoretical problem is not just a school campus issue, but could be a work or public issue as well. I'm fairly certain there are no laws preventing someone from self reporting they are positive when in fact they are not.
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What they're getting is not what they paid for.
I see an issue.
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Everyone is so addicted to their gods-be-damned smartphones that they have to be told this. Sad.
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A contact tracing app has to be always on I suspect the real fear is that parents will know there is a different person in ones bed each night. But that is important information. A mask while having sex may not prevent the spread.
This is the most reasonable back to s
How is the app flawed? (Score:2)
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What effect do you think that'll have on today's discourse?
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Or a flawed belief that people have a right to hide their infection status. WRONG.
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I tell you what, do you think people should be forced to have thier bodies violated ? Do you believe women should be forced to carry children full term as well? If I don't want a stick shoved up my nose or my blood tested. Is it 'my body , my choice' or not. After all it isn't like either situation involes human beings directly being kiled?? ...
libralism -- they name is inconsitancy.
Install on what? (Score:2)
What about students that can't afford or don't have a smart phone for one reason or another? Isn't the assumption that all students have an Appledroid phone elitist? Maybe racist?
And from a liberal arts school to boot. I'm ashamed of them (but not surprised). Minorities must be admitted to your schools, not ours. <nose_in_air.gif/>
Re:Install on what? -- Exactly ... (Score:2)
When I was a student I was often making choices between work and class hours ( i worked up to 3 part time jobs). Eating ramen to save money because I could not afford the cafiteria. I looked for the cheapest place to buy books and scaped by ... just bearly. Every policy that raises cost on students and is not required for actual education ( ie books, lab fees) on some level disadvantage the poor , who are predominatly minority and represents structural racism.
This is no exception. unless the univerisity
can't afford that is what unlimited student loans (Score:2)
can't afford that is what unlimited student loans are for! When the banks and schools have no skin in the game they can make you pay anything.
Cornell still has the swim test and you may have to pay for that.
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The article says quite plainly that it is required for students to download and install the app. It also says that students that turn off their location information would be "removed from campus" (which I assume is the same thing as being expelled).
The logical interpretation of that is that if a user does not have a phone that can download and install the app in the first place, regardless of the underlying reason, they would not be allowed to be on campus.
Needs its own device (Score:3, Interesting)
Nobody should ever be required to run mysterious software on their own personal computer, since those are used to access personal information. No way should such be co-mingling be tolerated. If the school (or your employer or your government) wants people to run possibly-unsafe things, it should be on their computer.
It could be a school-issued phone, or possibly something even smaller, simpler and cheaper.
This is not a flaw (Score:1)
A contact tracing app, in order to work, has to be able to track you. The trick is that it should be possible to implement that without any personal information being stored about the student.
I am about to send a kid back to college, and I am happy for them to use a similar app. The tracking should be anonymous, and being aware of potential exposures should help keep the student body as a whole safer. We'll see how it plays out.
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Google and Apple are both using bluetooth as the means of tracking No location data, just "who you were near" data. Much less intrusive and can still solve the problem.
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Yes, that's the best way to do it.
Crying Wolf (Score:3)
So these tracing apps typically use GPS position to know where you are and keep that detail over time and they can compare your path with a person that tests positive and can notify you if there was an intersection. Fine, I get how it works.
However, if I'm on campus on the second floor and you walk across my same position but only on the first floor, according to GPS track this is likely going to trigger a notification of possible exposure.
Clearly it is a false positive, being on different floors exposure is not possible. If I were notified immediately, I could look around and see if there really was anyone close to me at the time.
But when I get the notification a week later or even days later when the person actually tests positive, how am I going to know the notification itself is a false positive? And what about the people on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... floors? All of these notifications are pretty much worthless at that point.
Which then gets you towards a point where the app starts crying wolf all the time and people just start ignoring it (I know I would if I had a handful of false positives like this).
I think the only real tracking that would work would be NFC-based, but that's gotta be hard with so many different platforms to get right...
Re:Crying Wolf (Score:4, Informative)
So these tracing apps typically use GPS position to know where you are
No, the system recommended and supported by Apple and Google uses Bluetooth LE, so works indoors or underground etc where GPS would be unreliable. It works on proximity, not location.
But when I get the notification a week later or even days later when the person actually tests positive, how am I going to know the notification itself is a false positive?
Contact tracing is almost by definition something that is done after the fact, not in real time. Someone who knows he is positive with COVID should not be walking around triggering alarms, he should be isolating. The point is to alert people who have spent time in the recent past in the vicinity of a person who is discovered to be infected, so they too can isolate themselves.
I think the only real tracking that would work would be NFC-based, but that's gotta be hard with so many different platforms to get right...
NFC not much good since it is intended only to work over a distance of 4 cm / 1.5 in.
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So these tracing apps typically use GPS position ... However, if I'm on campus on the second floor and you walk across my same position but only on the first floor, according to GPS track this is likely going to trigger a notification of possible exposure.
GPS calculated altitude as well as x-y coördinates, so if the tracker doesn't know that you're on different floors, it is a poor algorithm.
It also should be able to tell if you're on the other side of a wall in a different classroom
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GPS calculated altitude as well as x-y coördinates, so if the tracker doesn't know that you're on different floors, it is a poor algorithm.
GPS basically doesn't work at all indoors. At all. You typicallly lose the relatively weak signal from the GPS satellites the second you walk into the door. With dedicated GPS receivers that have multiple antennas, I can *sometimes* get a signal inside wooden structures. In a concrete classroom or dorm building, you basically have to put your phone within a foot or two from the window. And even then, the location will probably be off, because it won't be able to see any satellites except those that are
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GPS calculated altitude as well as x-y coördinates, so if the tracker doesn't know that you're on different floors, it is a poor algorithm.
GPS basically doesn't work at all indoors. At all.
Since you are wrong with the very first sentence, I didn't read the rest of your comment.
Once, a decade or two back, GPS was pretty poor indoors. No longer; unless you live in a Faraday cage, that problem is mostly solved.
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Umm, no. If you're getting location data indoors in a concrete structure, it almost certainly isn't from GPS. It's from Wi-Fi triangulation or Bluetooth beacons.
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Where's the problem? (Score:2)
I do not see a problem with this. Albion is a *private college* which means to attend, you must abide by their rules.
Summarily, if you're a student and wish to protect yourself from infected students, faculty, and staff, Contact Tracing is an important way to do this.
Opting Out = not sharing your infection status. That's unsafe. It's like sneaking onto campus, potentially infecting everyone with whom you come into contact.
Security/Privacy for individuals goes right out the window when gathering in public ca
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I see a problem with this, the students are paying customers and a seller is pissing them off.
You spew lies, people can take the normal precautions everyone else is without a spy system. Stop spewing alarmist crap to push your nanny agenda.
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"Security/Privacy for individuals goes right out the window when gathering in public can KILL YOU"
This is exactly the problem. Excessive and objectively dishonest FEAR being used to strip people of thier rights. The chances of catching Covid if you are exposed to someone who has it are 20% the chances of living if you are infected are much better then 95% even by the worst estimates. (You can verify these numbers with WHO and the CDD).
This "risk" level could possibly justify some of our current measure
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It's like sneaking onto campus, potentially infecting everyone with whom you come into contact.
Knowingly exposing others to a pathogen is at the very least a form of battery and perhaps you can make an argument negligently doing should should also be subject to penalty.
Security/Privacy for individuals goes right out the window when gathering in public can KILL YOU.
dead Wrong, I don't care what courts have said what, I don't care how many useful idiots you have on your side. We have an explicit rights to assembly and security in our persons and effects, you have only an implied right to safety. Explicit rights SHOULD ALWAYS superseded implied ones without consideration of the consequences. If
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___Knowingly____ exposing others to a pathogen .... who said anything about knowingly. What about NOT knowing and NOT caring? is that also a crime?
What about other "pathogens"... where is the line? How about if I show up to work with the common cold? Before I kiss someone do I need to get them to sign a consent form in case i 'might' have cold sores?
Here's the thing. you will die. until you are at peace with that , you won't ever really live. But you should, at least , stop trying to force others to
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As there a private colledge. They get to have thier own rules. However , since it is a new policy , anyone who objects should recieve full refund of all expensis for this year, plus possibly a refrund on credits that don't transfer. They are basically forcing people to capitulate or lose a lot of money. They should assume libility if the alianate students with policy changes. ( fat chance of that) but it is what SHOULD happen.
Burner phone (Score:2)
many workarounds (Score:2)
If a student really is concerned about privacy they could
*get a used phone and install the app and leave it in their dorm room
*install the app and turn bluetooth off
*turn on airplane mode
*install the app in a simulated phone on a PC
*get a $30 burner phone and not carry it around
*install one of those GPS testing app (like people used to game PokemonGo) and make it look like they are traveling the world all the time or in the middle of the Atlantic
*not carry their phone on their person 24/7
*let their phone ba
Here is how to opt out... (Score:2)
Don't go to Michigan State University.
Schools have been trying this for decades (Score:3)
Schools have been trying to track students for years: within the school, on school grounds, at home, online. They try to control what students say and do outside of schools. Ironically, schools are supposed to be places for open thought and exploration, but too often they feel like the opposite.
So do not trust that this is for coronavirus protection. While that is a valid intent, they will surely use this as an opportunity to extend their control of students.
dedicated device (Score:2)
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Probably check-in to classes. In order to tally attendance, they used to do it by name when I was young, about a decade ago you had to swipe your ID, now you just scan into an app (or automatically with some sort of beacon).
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Turn Bluetooth Off (Score:2)
Simple Solution (Score:2)
Make yourself a custom smartphone sleeve out of aluminium foil.
Place smartphone inside sleeve
Problem solved
Good lesson to teach (Score:2)
It's over (Score:2)
money (Score:1)
They should do it like the canadian app (Score:2)
Canada's official contact tracing app works like this:
1) Each phone with the app broadcasts a random number a few times a minute on bluetooth
2) Phones log both their own random numbers, and the ones they hear.
3) If a user is infected, that user can click a button and upload a list of the numbers that their phone sent into a public repo
4) Other users can then compare the numbers their phones heard with the numbers in the public repo, and know if they were exposed.
This methodology is pretty straightforward, a
The biggest flaw (Score:2)
The availability of cheap burner phones from your local drug store.
One of the phones gets the tracking app, and you take the other one with you.
FAIL
Meh (Score:1)
Maybe this is just my inner fascist showing, but I don't see the problem. Albion's policy seems like a reasonable way to deal with an extraordinary situation. Any students unwilling to put themselves out for the good of the community can transfer to Liberty U.
But the security flaws need to be fixed, and the app shouldn't be mandated till then.
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for the good of the community can transfer to Liberty U.
Speaking of Inner Fascism, your transfer would be to the "renowned" Hillsdale College.
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It is not. Bluetooth has proven to work for this use case. It detects when you are close to someone and can exchange information. We don't need to know where we are, we need to know who is around us.
Unfortunately both solutions require EVERYONE to have the same app or all apps to post to the same database.