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Privacy Technology

Investigation Reveals It's Possible For Anyone To Find Geographic Coordinates of Ring Devices Using Post from Amazon's Neighbors App (gizmodo.com) 66

Posted by msmash from the privacy-woes dept.
An investigation by Gizmodo has revealed that it's possible to obtain the locations of Ring doorbell cameras from post on Amazon's Neighbors app. An anonymous reader writes: Amazon has continuously deflected criticism and claimed it is dedicated to user privacy. The company insisted Ring users have a "choice in what information, if any, they share with law enforcement." It turns not only can law enforcement access the exact location of users, but anyone, anywhere can find out where users live. Gizmodo was able to locate geographic coordinates for more than 20,000 camera. Some of the coordinates placed you directly in front of the Ring device, while other coordinates were a couple hundred feet yet identifiers from posted videos made it easy to locate the user's home. "People have been misled into buying these devices because Amazon tells them it will keep their family safe. But it's a lie. Amazon's surveillance network puts us all in danger," said Evan Greer, deputy director of Fight for the Future. "Any bystander caught by a Ring device could be located using the geographic coordinates found. People can be tracked going into buildings, like clinics, for private appointments. Children captured on video could be located by people with malicious intentions. The possibilities are endless. Amazon has failed to put any protections in place. Now, we're all vulnerable to the consequences of their dragnet. We need Congress to investigate, and hold Amazon accountable for these dangers."
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Investigation Reveals It's Possible For Anyone To Find Geographic Coordinates of Ring Devices Using Post from Amazon's Neighbors More

Investigation Reveals It's Possible For Anyone To Find Geographic Coordinates of Ring Devices Using Post from Amazon's Neighbors

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  • A spray can and a face mask.
    • You don't even need that. Just watch suitcases be put into a car, conclude that the ring owner or one of his neighbours in the field of view is going for a holiday, and use a map to see how to avoid the camera and go around the back.

  • Iterate fast, break things (Score:3)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:15AM (#59504628)

    Privacy is just another “thing” to be broken.

    • Re:Iterate fast, break things (Score:4, Interesting)

      by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:25AM (#59504652)
      Outside of it being difficult to get right (in much the same way that security is really hard) I suspect that part of the problem is that people in the U.S. don't really value their privacy because they never really understood what it's like not to have it. I suspect that's starting to change and we'll continue to see more and more push back as time goes by. We'll never get 100% to care, but I think you can get pretty far with 5% so long as they're noisy enough.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by cusco ( 717999 )

        Until the advent of large cities where one could become relatively anonymous there **was** no privacy as people think of it today. I grew up in a small town, one rainy day when the power was out my grandparents sat down with the phone book (about 1/2 inch thick with the yellow pages) and figured out that they were related to around 1/3 of Leelanau County. Privacy? What privacy?

        • That must have been some phone book, if it told your grandparents what was happening at each of their relatives' residences that afternoon!

          Privacy isn't just about who you are. Privacy includes things like what you're doing right now.

          Ring isn't some phone book that gives you inconclusive information about who your relatives might be. It's a real-time (and historical) active recording of what is happening at your residence at all times. There is a universe of difference between those two things.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by cusco ( 717999 )

            No, it's a record of a very narrow slice of what is happening in front of the device. Unless we happen to be walking in the front door or gardening directly in front of the camera there is no record of what is happening at my house.

            On the other hand any of the neighbors can see far more in much more detail from their front windows.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          On the other hand, there was parity. You knew about the people who knew about you.

    • What do you mean, break things? My Juicero press still works perfectly.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Dog-Cow ( 21281 )

      You'd be funnier (just kidding) if you used a phrase that came from Amazon, instead of Facebook.

  • We are cheap, so when we see these devices that are affordable, we jump on them and buy them, often insult the older device for being so expensive while having comparative specs. However we are now paying the price in privacy because the companies now offset the prices in sales price with collecting your information.

    Back in the 1990's we had PC Companies like eMachenes that sold dirt cheap PC's because you needed to buy 3 years of MSN service as well.
    or get your cell phone at a reduced rate with a 3 year c

    • The parts cost of these devices is around $30. They are making plenty of money selling them for $99.

      • You're paying for the assembly, the one time a code monkey programmed it and the cloud crap too.

      • I am sick of the cost of the parts arguments. Companies who price of the cost of parts, normally go out of business quickly because the cost of a product is much higher.

        Parts, Manufacturing Labor, the cost of rejected devices (having to make a replacement), There is the R&D Cost which also has to included the other rejected ideas, Sales, Marketing, Packaging... For $30 worth of parts you probably should expect to pay $120 for the product. As selling it for $99 is at cost.

        So lets assume your privacy i

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Chaset ( 552418 )

          Because the whole Ring thing creeps me out, I opted for a Raspi Zero+camera when I went shopping for a camera. (We had some vandals come through the neighborhood; I'd like some evidence to take to the police next time.) Zero W was $10, I think the camera was less than $20. The SD card was $6. I already had a power supply. Software was free, and I have full control of the images taken by the camera. (Assuming no back doors in a popular Linux distro... if we have that, lots more people than I would be in

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sjames ( 1099 )

      Very few of the cheap devices are loss leaders. A manufacturer COULD sell at those prices and make a fair profit (especially since they wouldn't have to maintain servers in "the cloud" for them.

  • This argument applied to every security camera in existence.

  • Why are people suddenly up in arms? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ravenscar ( 1662985 ) on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:46AM (#59504736)

    This article seems like a lot of fear mongering and I'm not sure of the real intent. If you have gone to any public place in a city of any size for the last 10 years you have been recorded. Buying gas - you're recorded. Buying groceries - recorded. Going through an intersection - recorded. Walking into your doctor's office or a hospital - recorded. Planned Parenthood - recorded from every angle six ways from Sunday. Walking down the street - recorded. And no, in most cases, it's not difficult for police to get their hands on such recordings. Most camera owners are glad to help when they can. Few are going to demand a warrant. Not to mention that, in most states, anyone who wants to can record or photograph you anywhere you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy (which for most is inside their own home and nowhere else).

    The same thing goes for sharing videos and photographs online. Most stuff is geotagged so anything someone puts on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc. can probably be easily located. None of this is new. If you don't want people to know where your photo or video were taken don't put them online. As far as I know Ring is the same. Your videos are kept private unless you choose to share them.

    So what's the deal? Why is this suddenly such a huge thing? Is it "OMG, people in the suburbs might get recorded in their neighborhoods just like everyone in the city has been for the last decade"? Is it "I finally found a security company everyone has heard of so let's make them sound super evil." I mean it's hard to drum up hatred and fear for an unknown security company, but Amazon is a household name. Is it general concern about the state of surveillance in the world? If so, it seems like it should have started a long time ago. Maybe when tow trucks started installing cameras to record and log license plates of all the cars they drive past. Perhaps when phones equipped with GPS info starting sharing all of that info with app providers. It could have been when cameras were placed on every bus, train, intersection, taxi, etc. Apparently Ring, a device primarily used by private homeowners to keep an eye on a sliver of their own property is the true evil we should fear.

    • Exactly. I guess because it is Amazon and people don't like video or something.

    • Most stuff is geotagged so anything someone puts on Facebook, ...

      Why in Sam Hill didn't you try to glomp the EXIF from some photos on Facebook?

      Just why?

      Facebook strips that shit.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by at10u8 ( 179705 )
        True, fb strips the metadata from what they republish, but they keep it internally, and really the motivation for stripping what is published is to obfuscate claims of copyright violation.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by jwymanm ( 627857 )
      I've been following this closely. There have been 1-2 articles a week against Ring on many sources. It's most likely competitor driven just like the anti Google stuff in EU can be traced to Brave in many cases. Just normal part of business these days is to use the media to try to fight your competitor and make government do your dirty work. You change the appearance of Ring from people happy about its service (it's great btw, I love my Ring device - it works constantly and I know my gf's kids get home safe

    • While it's true that we are likely under surveillance by someone's camera, we have a patchwork of hardware and software, at least in the US.

      It's not like in the UK where the word "CCTV" universally implies centralized police surveillance of the public.

      However, Amazon's Ring cameras may be the first to gain widespread popularity to the point it does indeed become the "CCTV" of the US. And then all of a sudden the fact the data is owned by an opaque private company and not by the public (even in limited capac

    • I'd suspect it's A) because there are SO many more of them today, and B) cops used to have to visit a location to get the video tape, etc., meaning there had to be intent. Today, because of the Internet, it won't be long before law enforcement (and their contractors, and maybe those with money who are hidden in the fine print) can click around these cameras in real time.

      My only head-scratcher: Where's the actual safety from these things? The daily TV news has a report with video clips every month showi

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        Most private and gov CCTV is now shared via "networks" in real time.
        Re "Why is the general consensus to shrug shoulders?"
        Who the criminals are and the world seeing city crime has not stopped after decades of city/state "spending" on police.
        So a massive US city govs effort to stop people seeing, commenting, uploading... for privacy...

    • You asked "why are people suddenly up in arms?" I think there are two reasons.

      1) People who buy Ring doorbells largely do so out of some level of fear, and the idea their home might be individually locatable thanks to the device just feeds on that.

      2) People who buy Ring doorbells are fine with giving up other people's privacy, but did not think they were giving up their own.

      • You asked "why are people suddenly up in arms?" I think there are two reasons.

        1) People who buy Ring doorbells largely do so out of some level of fear, and the idea their home might be individually locatable thanks to the device just feeds on that.

        2) People who buy Ring doorbells are fine with giving up other people's privacy, but did not think they were giving up their own.

        But you're assuming that the people up in arms are the Ring owners. On the contrary, I think they're perfectly willing to accept the t

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by cusco ( 717999 )

        Actually Ring doorbells are very popular among people who have Airbnb rentals, in fact the company recommends that people install a video doorbell if they aren't going to be personally receiving the guests. Where I work (Amazon) they're also popular among parents so that they know when the kids get home.

    • Apparently Ring, a device primarily used by private homeowners to keep an eye on a sliver of their own property is the true evil we should fear.

      Even more interesting is that Google, with their Nest cameras which directly compete with Ring, get a total pass on this "Amazon and Ring are the harbingers of facism" meme.

      I really have to wonder if there's some truth to the theory that all these anti-Ring news stories are being encouraged by the competition.

    • It's not the single device which is a problem. It's the network of multiple devices.
      • Being recorded walking your dog in front of a neighbor's house, or while you're eating at a restaurant doesn't bug people.
      • Being recorded on dozens of cameras connected to the same network so someone could piece together your entire dog walk with a curiously long stay outside camera coverage right where the house of the local drug dealer is; or your entire restaurant visit from your home, to picking up your mistress, to t

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by thomn8r ( 635504 )

      If you have gone to any public place in a city of any size for the last 10 years you have been recorded

      The problem isn't that you're being recorded, it's that someone can trace the recording back to where you live. You see some hot chick on the gas station security cam - no big deal; but in the Ring ecosystem you can can figure out where she lives.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        Re 'it's that someone can trace the recording back to where you live. "...
        Police can do that with CCTV networks all over any large USA city.
        Every drivers face and any passengers face into and out of a larger US city is tracked via CCTV.
        Same with rail, ports, bus, truck use. Every face, 24/7.

        Now people in city ares filled with crime have the same ability to see who is stealing from them.
        A poor person who had to work for many hours to buy something only to have the delivery stolen by criminals...

        Now

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by cusco ( 717999 )

        in the Ring ecosystem you can figure out where she lives.

        Yeah, good luck with that. If you're willing to spend the amount of time it would take to do that you're already in the "seriously mentally disturbed" category. It's far more likely that you would have just followed her the old fashioned stalker way, since it's a lot faster and easier.

    • The slim hope that Amazon for a change might care for their image and not steamroll over everyone like the other guys did?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Re "So what's the deal? Why is this suddenly such a huge thing?"
      Inner city US politics.
      Less crime and much better police work is not good for US political leaders who like their city areas as they have been for decades.
      Seeing the criminals and the crime they do does not fit with their side of SJW politics.
      Who is doing the crime and why the crime is not stopped after decades of "trying".

      The world can now see the criminals and knows what US city gov allow crime to stay the way it is.
      Stop crime? No,

    • Why?

      Because there is money to be made by spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

  • I don't get all the hand-wringing. (Score:3)

    by TigerPlish ( 174064 ) on Tuesday December 10, 2019 @11:48AM (#59504742)

    All businesses video you goin in, looking around, and going out. This was going on long before Ring was a thing.

    Don't wanna end up on a poster at the entrance of the business? Stop stuffing your pockets with their merch!

    As for ring proper, do'nt wanna end up posted on Neighbors? Then for fuck's sake don' ring my ring at 2 AM even if you're "lost". "Lost" is a convenient excuse for "casing the joint"

    And in Neighbors, I"m not "TigerPlish." or eve Jose Pingalarga. I'm "neighbor" and then a rando number. Same for all the others. It's not like Nextdoor, where names are "required".

    If others can verify that yes, Neighbors is leaking lat/longs, then shame on Amazon and fix that shit rightnow. But the rest of it?

    Sounds like a bunch of man-bun-wearing latte-sipping Che Guevara-ewaring high school communist journalists. Just like /.'s alleged Eds. They lap this shit UP!

    • The problem is with Ring that the recordings are no longer yours and they get uploaded to Amazon to do with as they please. In this case leaking data and handing the keys over to the cops. But hey taking five minutes to read up on the subject is too much apparently.

      • Why does that matter? Do people who buy Ring cameras care if the "video is theirs"? And normal people don't dislike the cops having access to the video.

        • Find me one fucking link with HARD EVIDENCE that cops can get into your Ring and get footage without you giving it over willingly.

          Go ahead. I'll wait.

          Not heresay -- evidence. Verifiable evidence. Can you accommodate my request?

      • Cops can't automagically get your Ring footage. You are the one who hands it over (or not hand it over, which is my default preference unless the video shows an actual crime)

        Understand *THAT*?!

  • well that do be the point of all this!

    I grow tired of telling people that I can take their property, privacy, and liberty... while also making them love me for it. This is one small example of doing just this.

    Just apply a little deception and I will make you think everything you actually do not need is needed... especially when it comes to your safety. The fear of the unknown will allow me to control you and not only will you not resist, you will beg me!

  • Cameras to monitor the public space in front of your door can actually monitor the public space! How is this possible? We must FIGHT to keep our public lives totally private, NO ONE has a right to even see me on the street, let alone capture a picture of me! How dare they invade my publicity!

    I have to go post a few dozen Instagrams to share my outrage...

    • Exactly. And there are EIGHT trackers on this webpage and probably a dozen others on the "investigation" website.

  • We need Congress to investigate, and hold Amazon accountable for these dangers.

    No gubmint intervention required - surely the free market will just take care of this, right? /sarc

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