Alabama Tracking Students' Locations To Penalize Them For Leaving Games Early (nytimes.com) 114
The University of Alabama is taking an extraordinary, Orwellian step to reward students who attend games -- and stay until the fourth quarter -- by using location-tracking technology from students' phones to see who skips out and who stays. If students stay until the fourth quarter, they will be rewarded with improved access to tickets to the SEC championship game and to the College Football Playoff semifinals and championship game, which Alabama is trying to reach for the fifth consecutive season. The New York Times reports: Greg Byrne, Alabama's athletic director, said privacy concerns rarely came up when the program was being discussed with other departments and student groups. Students who download the Tide Loyalty Points app will be tracked only inside the stadium, he said, and they can close the app -- or delete it -- once they leave the stadium. "If anybody has a phone, unless you're in airplane mode or have it off, the cellular companies know where you are," he said.
The creator of the app, FanMaker, runs apps for 40 colleges, including Clemson, Louisiana State and Southern California, which typically reward fans with gifts like T-shirts. The app it created for Alabama is the only one that tracks the locations of its students. That Alabama would want it is an example of how even a powerhouse program like the Crimson Tide is not sheltered from college football's decline in attendance, which sank to a 22-year low last season. The Tide Loyalty Points program works like this: Students, who typically pay about $10 for home tickets, download the app and earn 100 points for attending a home game and an additional 250 for staying until the fourth quarter. Those points augment ones they garner mostly from progress they have made toward their degrees -- 100 points per credit hour. (A regular load would be 15 credits per semester, or 1,500 points.) Adam Schwartz, a lawyer for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy watchdog, said it was "very alarming" that a public university -- an arm of the government -- was tracking its students' whereabouts.
"Why should packing the stadium in the fourth quarter be the last time the government wants to know where students are?" Schwartz said, adding that it was "inappropriate" to offer an incentive for students to give up their privacy. "A public university is a teacher, telling students what is proper in a democratic society."
The creator of the app, FanMaker, runs apps for 40 colleges, including Clemson, Louisiana State and Southern California, which typically reward fans with gifts like T-shirts. The app it created for Alabama is the only one that tracks the locations of its students. That Alabama would want it is an example of how even a powerhouse program like the Crimson Tide is not sheltered from college football's decline in attendance, which sank to a 22-year low last season. The Tide Loyalty Points program works like this: Students, who typically pay about $10 for home tickets, download the app and earn 100 points for attending a home game and an additional 250 for staying until the fourth quarter. Those points augment ones they garner mostly from progress they have made toward their degrees -- 100 points per credit hour. (A regular load would be 15 credits per semester, or 1,500 points.) Adam Schwartz, a lawyer for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy watchdog, said it was "very alarming" that a public university -- an arm of the government -- was tracking its students' whereabouts.
"Why should packing the stadium in the fourth quarter be the last time the government wants to know where students are?" Schwartz said, adding that it was "inappropriate" to offer an incentive for students to give up their privacy. "A public university is a teacher, telling students what is proper in a democratic society."
Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:3, Interesting)
"That Alabama would want it is an example of how even a powerhouse program like the Crimson Tide is not sheltered from college football's decline in attendance, which sank to a 22-year low last season. "
Every year, fewer and fewer people give a shit about overpaid grunts playing a children's game.
Maybe there is hope for humanity after all.
Re:Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly true, and this is a strong reason why I don't see how this will help. The "reward" for sticking with the sporting match is more sporting match. So presumably if you're already interested in sportsball, you already have an incentive to stay?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Not all games are equally interesting. Everyone wants to go to games against big rivals and other similar skilled teams that will make for an interesting game. But there are also plenty of games against smaller schools with much worse off teams. You are pretty sure who is going to win and the games are rather boring when one-sided.
At a lot of the universities the students can go for free, however there are more students interested in the big games than they have seats for. So usually there is a lotter
Re: (Score:2)
This is the problem -- for TV money, ticket and concessions revenue, and inflated win records, college football has padded its schedules with non-competitive games. Even though the smaller schools get shellacked, they're in on it, too, collecting big paychecks for serving as a chump to teams like Alabama.
It's not all surprising that people lose interest once the B squad has scored 3 touchdowns after the A squad scored the first 5 in the first half of the game.
It was different a few decades ago when teams p
Re: (Score:2)
Especially for the smaller schools, getting on TV is a huge deal. It's money in their pocket and free nation-wide advertising. It's a no-brainer to sign up to be crushed for them. But as you noted, that makes half the season pointless to watch.
Re: (Score:2)
So what's in it for the colleges to make people stay until the end? It looks better on TV or something?
Re: (Score:2)
I am not into college football. But I don't see how such clichéd comments about sports contribute to anything but the poster's sense of self-importance.
However, as to your second question, I hold that, like art, sports showcase a form of human excellence that should be celebrated. It's generally very hard to be good at any sport.
For this reason, I continue to play baseball (badly), and ride my bike somewhat seriously (although not competitively).
Re: (Score:2)
The question remains - if you aren't interested in sport, why would the lure of access to more sport mean anything? Why should it? Thats the issue here - forced involvement in something you aren't interested in, and more than that, forced involvement in supporting something you aren't interested in.
Why can't people simply accept that some people do not like sports - or if they do, they don't necessarily like the sports that are available at a college level. This year, I will watch precisely 21 specific s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thanks for noting below that you misinterpreted/misread my question. Appreciated and noted.
I will note for completeness that I do have a big ethical issue with gridiron specifically. The evidence seems to be that thanks to brain injury, it is inherently unsafe to play in its current form. But I am happy for you that you find fulfillment in sports that don't have that problem.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
News just in: some people care about things that you don't.
How DARE they! Those people should probably be put to death.
Re:Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:5, Informative)
One could make the same argument about soccer, baseball, or any other sporting event. Or any type of entertainment, for that matter. From my experience on college campuses, interest in college football has declined for a number of reasons.
(1) Student bodies are much more diverse than twenty or thirty years ago. Many undergraduates come from cultures where American football means nothing to them, so why should they become fans?
(2) Students have many, many more opportunities for entertainment. Thirty years ago, you either went to the football game or you watched TV on Saturday. Today they have a multitude of entertainment choices.
(3) The crackdown on underage drinking put a huge damper on Saturday pre-game and post-game parties at many campuses.
(4) College football sold its soul to ESPN, allowing ESPN to dictate fan-hostile game times of 12 noon, 3:30, or 7 p.m. for all games. If your team isn't a big network draw, guess when most of your games get played? It doesn't take many noon games in the August or September heat for students to decide to stay home. Other teams' fans get equally sick of having to deal with constant night games to accommodate ESPN.
So yes, college football is dying. The fan base is aging out, and the NFL is suffering from it as well.
You Forgot Price (Score:4, Informative)
If they are still charging as much - or more - than they did back then, then even with a student discount price may be a significant factor.
I thought it was odd so I googled it (Score:2)
Anyway it's mostly a) modern college kids are even broker than we are and can't afford the tickets and
Re: (Score:2)
The last point doesn't hold up -- the NFL deliberately doesn't play Saturday games until the college season is over, so as not to cause such dilemmas. In the post-season, they do play Saturday games, but the college season is done by then.
Re: Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:2)
Every year, fewer and fewer people give a shit about overpaid grunts playing a children's game.
As college athletes they are unpaid amateur athletes.
Re: (Score:1)
If they're playing on the field during the game, they are on a sports scholarship, often a full scholarship.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not interest in "college football", it's the tune-up games against some shitty team no one cares about that Alabama (one of the top couple teams in the country) wins by 60 points. A better solution to stalking students and forcing them to watch crap is to have good teams only play good teams and not bad teams, so the games are interesting. But that wouldn't work well for the sports ecosystem which profits from these stompings and rarer powerhouse on powerhouse matches.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Ever watch a ballgame in Denny Stadium when the heat index is over one hundred? I have, and it's miserable.
Damn...if only I could find a way to pay a shitload of money for the privilege of standing in line, buying overpriced stadium food, and sitting next to obnoxious, drunken sports fans in 100 degree heat.
Re: (Score:2)
While you deserve the insightful, I think you were also pitching for "funny" and I'm sorry I don't have a mod point for you.
The American versions of the Roman Empire's "bread and circuses" seem to have flaws. The bread side is producing excessive obesity and the circus side is too perfectly adapted for destroying minds, both for the players and the television viewers.
(More could be said, but it's a dying story and I've already satisfied my minimum daily requirements for heresy and blasphemy.)
Re: (Score:1)
Money isn't the only way one can be paid.
Re: Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:2)
College football players arenâ(TM)t paid retard.
Why would a student paying too much for an education be mandated to attend an extra-curricular activity? Turn off your stupid phones, leave them off until you are clear of school property. You are not there to pay for an athlete. If the University has issues with that, tell them to refund your money and be on your way. WEE TODD
Re: (Score:2)
Why would a student paying too much for an education be mandated to attend an extra-curricular activity?
They're not.
Re: Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:2)
paying too much for an education
Student loans? Not everyone is independently wealthy.
Re: (Score:2)
They may or may not be paying too much. They are not, in the context of the article under discussion, being mandated to attend a sporting event.
I hope that provides useful clarification.
Re: (Score:1)
College football players aren’t paid retard.
They're paid in room and board, scholarships, travel costs, course materials (books and other "essential class supplies"), off-the-books perks, etc etc.
But yeah, that stuff has no value whatsoever, especially the attend-college-for-free part.
Re: (Score:1)
College football players arenâ(TM)t paid retard.
They are paid with athletic scholarships.
Retard.
Re:Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:5, Informative)
Gee, according to the NCAA (http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/scholarships) at least some college athletes receive compensation such as tuition, room & board, books, etc. Apparently NCAA Divisions I and II schools provide more than $2.9 billion in athletics scholarships annually to more than 150,000 student-athletes.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And right when you said "student-athletes" you went into fantasy land. Football players at major programs are athletes. Period. Nothing wrong with that, but they are unpaid employees. Yeah, tuition... that's like saying that your employer letting you into work is giving you "tuition".
Re:Interest declining? Sounds good to me. (Score:5, Insightful)
They're taking up places that would be better occupied by people who are there to learn something useful to society.
Re: (Score:2)
They're also making a pile of money for the university that they use to provide educational services to non-athletes. The question is how much beyond their own stuff do they fund. Would removing the sports program defund other academic services?
I honestly don't know the answer to that, but it's way more complicated than saying that they are taking up spaces in classes that others could use.
For example, my undergrad had "rocks for jocks" to fill their science requirement. Take that class away, and now you've
Re: (Score:2)
Show me one university where the athletics program supports academia.
Re: (Score:2)
Show me one university where the athletics program supports academia.
University of Florida.
But yes, it is rare.
ugh, such a fuckwit (Score:1)
HEY FUCKWIT: I didn't say "student-athletes" it was part of the NCAA's URL. Talk about fantasy land. Also, since their "employer" is paying for their food and lodging, as well as providing a college degree along with an introduction to the professional sports network, that's a nice bonus when they "retire". That's much more than most employers provide these days.
I suppose that you do not realize that thousands and thousands of people pay outrageous sums of money for the same tuition, room & board, b
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Prove that they are paid. Oh wait you can’t. You’re just a incel soy boy.
College football players aren’t paid retard.
What about all those "scholarships"?
(...and the free passes for getting out of rape accusations)
Re: (Score:1)
Yeah, that certainly seems like monetary consideration to me.
They're absolutely paid.
Re: (Score:2)
I could not make this stuff up.
I'm sure you could, but, sadly, it is not needed.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, this app could report to the parents that their students were at some dumb Bama game instead of in their room studying?
Re: (Score:2)
So what stops people from leaving their devices in their rooms, or handing them to each other for the day to massively mess with the tracking?
what permissions??? (Score:2)
wonder what other permissions it asks for when installing the app.
Obviously a field-test (Score:2)
For larger things to come. Also to test how tolerant people are to this. Another step in a very bad direction.
Re: (Score:2)
Penalizing them?? (Score:5, Informative)
It's not really "penalizing them" so much as "not rewarding them".
If they stay till the game ends, they get discounts on the championship game(s). I'm not sure I see the problem - if you don't care about the games, no problems. If you care, and want the discounts, you let them verify you were at the games. And if you care, but don't give a rat's ass about the discounts for the championship game(s), you refuse the tracking, and you're golden....
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Penalizing them?? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's not really "penalizing them" so much as "not rewarding them".
But wait for the NEXT step: That's a nice looking diploma you're working towards, it'd be a shame if something happened to it.
But they really need to do stadium face recognition -- anyone can fake out their phone's GPS address with enough lead-time.
Re: (Score:2)
Why do people even have their phone's GPS turned on when they're not actively trying to navigate? Turn it off. Your battery life will be greater. (Nobody cares about the latitude and longitude of where you took that picture of your lunch.) And, unless the Alabama officials have a deal with the cellular carriers to provide cell tower information that might be used to put you in the vicinity of the stadium, they're out of luck.
Re: (Score:2)
Before I quit, my ex employer's health insurance company offered us a $300 annual discount if we submit to their "wellness program" and submit blood tests. The idea, according to them, was not to discriminate against unhealthy people (that would be illegal!), but instead to better identify ways to coach us on our health. You know, they were just trying to help us.
Naturally, our premiums went up dramatically, so if we participated in the program, we would only break even compared to the previous year. Nex
Not really a privacy violation (Score:3)
They're just using the app to verify students are still there through the 4th quarter.
A lower tech method could accomplish exactly the same thing... For example: "Insert your ticket stub into this machine as you are leaving, and scan your fingerprint to verify your identity."
Only the 100 points will be available when scanning out, and not the 350 total -- until after a staff member turns a key or pushes a button indicating that the prescribed time has been reached for that award, And your points award depends on when you scan out.
Re: (Score:2)
For example: "Insert your ticket stub into this machine as you are leaving, and scan your fingerprint to verify your identity."
Way too slow and complicated. Verifying the student is in the stadium doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if the students understand that the app will verify their location while it's open (like pretty much every other app on your phone).
Re: (Score:1)
A lower tech method could accomplish exactly the same thing... For example: "Insert your ticket stub into this machine as you are leaving, and scan your fingerprint to verify your identity."
I can't imagine anyone complaining about that.
Re: Not really a privacy violation (Score:2)
So the university maintains a fingerprint database of all students? You may want to think this through a bit more.
Re: (Score:2)
So the university maintains a fingerprint database of all students? You may want to think this through a bit more.
These type of systems do not store anybody's fingerprints: they store a set of fuzzy hashes which are unique to the authentication system that can later be used to confirm a match.
Also, they don't need to be linked against a student, and they do not need to be retained after the event -- just get the fingerprint when they come in and record it against the TICKET not the student, and wh
Re: Not really a privacy violation (Score:2)
That sounds way more cumbersome and expensive than running an app in the cloud.
Think of it, the server only has to run during the game, all it does is collect location pings from the app running on the phone, and not one new piece of actual electronics needs to be installed at the stadium. Plus, itâ(TM)s completely passive, it requires no change in entry/exit points.
Re: (Score:2)
it requires no change in entry/exit points.
Neither does this, and my understanding is their facility already has computerized Kiosk at each level already, and they already have such gates and terminals as required for students to scan their ID to access their event tickets
That is likely equipped with a general-purpose computer and peripherals which are standard on kiosks -- as in Touch screens,
Camera, Reading devices for cards and/or scanner, Or can be easily added.
In any event, adding a small numbe
Re: (Score:1)
So the university maintains a fingerprint database of all students? You may want to think this through a bit more.
I was being sarcastic. I guess I thought readers would think it through a bit more. ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
Alabama has 8 home games this year. You and 3 friends agree that 4 games probably won't be close in the fourth quarter, and you would each like to reclaim some, or even all (your friend could enter with his ticket, leave and enter with yours) of the game time for three of the four weeks. You sit together, and anytime you're ready to leave, you give your ticket to the friend who is staying to the end that week. You leave, and he turns in your ticket at the end of the game getting you the end of game timestam
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Photography of the stands would be error-prone an not a very practical way to reliably verify the presence of every student.
Everyone wants their points, but there would be many ways for a student to not appear in a photograph at some snapshots in time --- Such as a student being obscured by other students, clothing, adornments, etc, so you would need effectively multiple photographs or a continuous system, Or capture their photos as they are leaving.
Once you get computers involved in identifying student
Re: Not really a privacy violation (Score:2)
Advocating for facial recognition of crowds?
There are tens of thousands of seats, fans wear hats and sunglasses, and some will paint their faces. Not to mention, I have to believe such an effort would require many, many hundreds of very expensive cameras, or maybe a fleet of drones to scour the stands, harvesting faces... How long before Homeland Security asks to tap into the face photo feed to find âoebad guysâ?
Re: (Score:1)
I don't have a smartphone. Can I still participate?
Yes, visit the Tide Loyalty Points kiosk at each level of the student section upon arrival at Bryant-Denny Stadium to receive your points for attending the game. Visit the kiosk before exiting the stadium to receive your points for staying until the fourth quarter.
Re: (Score:2)
That is cool. I imagine visiting the Kiosk involves waiting in line however; and the mobile App is likely more convenient for the students. The app actually provides a quality of life improvement. The Privacy Advocates are just completely tone deaf to the students wishes and desires: concerned only about privacy --- I think its important to recognize that the organizations advocating privacy do Not necessarily represent the students' interests, wishes, and desires: They just have a political/ideo
Is a phone obligatory? (Score:2)
Re: Is a phone obligatory? (Score:2)
No, it's an opt-in loyalty program, you can attend the game without participating, and if you choose to participate you can load the app before the game, get credit during the game, then delete the app after you leave the game.
Grad-student seminar? (Score:2)
So this could be used to track attendance of first-year grad students who get course credit for attending seminars?
Re: Grad-student seminar? (Score:2)
Are the seminars in the football stadium?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Is a phone obligatory? (Score:2)
Itâ(TM)s an opt-in loyalty program, you are free to attend the game without participating.
This isn't A ticketing system, think of it like those radio station promotions where the person that keeps their hands on a new car the longest wins the car, only in this case people that sit thru all four quarters of every home game gets preference for post-season tickets (early access, lower price, or better seats, whatever that means).
If you want to game the system get a bunch of burner phones, install the app
Oh please (Score:4, Insightful)
The tracking is plainly disclosed. If you do not want to be tracked, do not use the app.
And by "penalize" you mean... (Score:5, Informative)
From the /. summary:
Students who download the Tide Loyalty Points app will be tracked only inside the stadium, he said, and they can close the app -- or delete it -- once they leave the stadium.
So it's an opt-in program, it only tracks you while in the stadium, and you can delete it after the game without issue.
And why do this? Because you want preferential access to post-season games.
There is no more penalty in this than there is in a raffle you choose not to enter!
As an opt-in program, I don't see any invasion of privacy.
Students that choose not to participate can still attend any in season game they want, and if they want post-season game tickets there are other ways to get them.
Can't skip indoctriatnoinon. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is all these sports are good for these days. They drain funds that could be used for genuine education and provide almost nothing in return. They preach teamwork while deifying individuals. A simple bread a circus to entertain and make idiots think they belong to something greater.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Its negative against them due to the fact that they should be forth or fifth on the list of any schools needs but end up number one. They do not teach the kids any useful skill. PE provides physical education a hint is that its literally the name of the class. Students could compete for scholastic honors. They do not teach teamwork except in the mob mentality kind of teamwork. Sports in universities create rapist and yes men who lack critical thinking skills. Sounds like your narrow minded because I d
$10 for student tickets? (Score:2)
Crap, I got into my college football games (undergrad and grad) for free by flashing my student ID. Of course, the teams sucked like a tornado most years so, for many, attendance was mainly a way to meet up with other students you hadn't seen all week, to find out if there were any good parties to go to, or to see what rock song the marching band would cover that week. But $10 admission for a student? Just another way for Big Time College Sports(tm) to add to its cash flow. Shame on Alabama for soaking the
Hoping game attendance continues to drop (Score:2)
teaching (Score:2)
"A public university is a teacher, telling students what is proper in a democratic society."
democratic society. in the 21st century. ahahaahahaa. ahahahahaahahaaha. i'm sorry, i'm back now, after falling off my chair at the joke.
they're teaching them that orwellian society is the norm.
The tracking is plainly disclosed. If you do not want to be tracked, do not use the app
and what's the penalty for not being trackable?
remember the argument "if you have nothing to hide, you should be fine with us tracking you. therefore if you refuse to be tracked, you must have something to hide"?
SEC championship tickets can be scalped (Score:2)
SEC championship tickets can be scalped
Re: (Score:2)
Retrieve running apps? WHY?? (Score:2)
The location tracking part of the app I was kind of on the fence about.
When I was working at an university, the network team had your device MAC address and the what/when of the university public wifi access points the devices had associated with. Confirming with the system administration team in the same department could result in discovering the IP address and what university systems that IP address had signed into. If we had problems with a misbehaving laptop such as malware that impacted universit
Everything is an entrepreneurial opportunity (Score:1)
Just skip it (Score:2)
Why isn't American football banned yet? (Score:2)
Or completely redone with new rules?
Everyone knows that the damage done when playing is gruesome and IMHO it would be irresponsible to let people pay or even build a business on it.
Re: (Score:2)
Because it's fun to watch people getting hurt?
Look on the bright side, when the jocks are bashing each other's heads in, at least they can't stuff ours in the toilets.
Why care about rears in seats? (Score:2)
Sorry for the naive question, but I just don't get why anyone cares if people show up for the entire game.
Once you've made the ticket sale, you got your rmoney, so what do you care if someone actually stays the whole game or not? More money from beer sales?
Or, once ticket is sold, who cares if someone even shows up at all?
And if the game is bad, say for example it turns into a total blow out, why force people to suffer through watching the end of it?
And BTW, I'm completely with the folks who want t
Re: (Score:2)
If the game is your entertainment product, knowing how long attendees stay might have some value. But sports have random elements that scripted and edited television does not, so the information is less valuable than it seem. People leaving early from a one-side game and staying at a close one isn't telling you anything surprising.
Plus the surveillance is creepy.
Re: (Score:2)
Here's the solution (Score:2)
Get a burner phone, one of you collects them, sits through the whole ordeal and pretends that you're there.
Get that guy Netflix or Amazon prime so he can at least watch something interesting while he has to sit there.
PRIVATE COMPANY (Score:2)
Remember that HUR DUR PRIVATE COMPANY nonesense all these retards kept spouting the last ten years every time our privacy was erroded and we moved closer and closer to a privatized version of China's "social credit" system?
YOU WANTED THIS WORLD, now you get to live in it, you hipster bastards.
Teamwork (Score:2)
This will work for about three minutes until they decide which of them will stay behind with a backpack full of phones and then meet up with the rest afterwards.
Actually, wouldn't it be more useful to collect data on when attendees are leaving right away, when they are staying for most of the game, and when they stay to the end voluntariliy?
false equivalency (for clickbait, basically) (Score:3)
"rewarding people who opt in and then stay to the end" != "penalizing people who opt in and leave early".
Edumacation (Score:2)
Glad to see such amazing investment in education by an educational institution [sic].
Re:Thank God (Score:4, Interesting)
I for one am glad that the world's leading universities are finally prioritizing the important problems.
None of the institutions mentioned are anywhere near the caliber of the world's leading universities. LOL.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. This is Alabama. If it wasn't for football, no one would know or care that they even had colleges in Alabama. They probably wouldn't now that I think about it.
Re: (Score:1)
Not true. I know Clemson University has an excellent engineering program and I'm aware LSU has a very good one too.
You'll never guess which later to be famous Civil War general was Louisiana State University's first leader.