In Stores, Secret Surveillance Tracks Your Every Move (nytimes.com) 173
In retail stores, Bluetooth "beacons" are watching you, using hidden technology in your phone. From a report: Imagine you are shopping in your favorite grocery store. As you approach the dairy aisle, you are sent a push notification in your phone: "10 percent off your favorite yogurt! Click here to redeem your coupon." You considered buying yogurt on your last trip to the store, but you decided against it. How did your phone know? Your smartphone was tracking you. The grocery store got your location data and paid a shadowy group of marketers to use that information to target you with ads. Recent reports have noted how companies use data gathered from cell towers, ambient Wi-Fi, and GPS. But the location data industry has a much more precise, and unobtrusive, tool: Bluetooth beacons.
These beacons are small, inobtrusive electronic devices that are hidden throughout the grocery store; an app on your phone that communicates with them informed the company not only that you had entered the building, but that you had lingered for two minutes in front of the low-fat Chobanis. Most location services use cell towers and GPS, but these technologies have limitations. Cell towers have wide coverage, but low location accuracy: An advertiser can think you are in Walgreens, but you're actually in McDonald's next door. GPS, by contrast, can be accurate to a radius of around five meters (16 feet), but it does not work well indoors. Bluetooth beacons, however, can track your location accurately from a range of inches to about 50 meters. They use little energy, and they work well indoors. That has made them popular among companies that want precise tracking inside a store.
These beacons are small, inobtrusive electronic devices that are hidden throughout the grocery store; an app on your phone that communicates with them informed the company not only that you had entered the building, but that you had lingered for two minutes in front of the low-fat Chobanis. Most location services use cell towers and GPS, but these technologies have limitations. Cell towers have wide coverage, but low location accuracy: An advertiser can think you are in Walgreens, but you're actually in McDonald's next door. GPS, by contrast, can be accurate to a radius of around five meters (16 feet), but it does not work well indoors. Bluetooth beacons, however, can track your location accurately from a range of inches to about 50 meters. They use little energy, and they work well indoors. That has made them popular among companies that want precise tracking inside a store.
Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Call me a weirdo: but I'm fan of targeted advertising. Why would I be against a system that gives me coupons tailored to things I'm thinking of buying anyway?
Same goes for ads on the internet. Most websites use ad revenue to survive... fine.... the least they can do is show me _relevant_ ads.
I really have never understood why people are against targeted advertising...
OK... (Score:5, Funny)
You're a weirdo.
There. Now don't say no one on the internet never showed you random kindness.
Re: (Score:1)
Frankly it is pointless to fight it. Once facial recognition and micro drones are everywhere nothing anybody does will be anonymous or secret anymore.
Re: Are you channeling Kendall now? (Score:2)
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is you think they aren't fucking you on the price. Some places have those digital price tags, they'll bump it up then give you 15% off. You'll think it's a great deal.
So he is right then (Score:2)
The problem is you think they aren't fucking you on the price. Some places have those digital price tags, they'll bump it up then give you 15% off. You'll think it's a great deal.
Yep but then he's still just paying retail. He's still winning; it's people buying at the original marked up price that are being taken by the store in the form your vernacular describes.
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In my example retail price doesn't really exist. Computer picks up that SuperKendall is in the store. He usually buys carrots at around $3 a lb, but he's spent more. So it raises the price to $3.75 a lb. As you go near a coupon pops up, 15% off, so they are now what, $3.19, and you think, oh sweet deal since you buy carrots anyway and you don't look too hard at the price. But the retail is really $2.99 but this place always marks it higher.
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What store has digital price tags? I've never seen them. AFAIK stores in the US are required to print prices in a particular format.
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"AFAIK stores in the US are required to print prices in a particular format."
Nope AFAIK. Maybe for certain things, food labels sure, tobacco, poisons... Generally no.
Re: So he is right then (Score:4, Funny)
Kohls
Who the fuck shops there?
I mean..besides women and homosexuals?
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Informative)
Amazon already does this to people. We can both look up the item at the same time and see different prices. Using enough data it can be figured out how much you'll pay for something and how much of discount off another price will make you want to buy it. As to the no phone, I've been in stores that have auto coupon machines, and using other people's info and most likely your store shopper card they'll know a lot about you.
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Then don't buy the item. Stop trying to pretend you are being forced to buy most of the crap they are peddling.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Informative)
Why am I not entitled to...
The world owes you nothing.
even though I’ve got Bluetooth turned off?
I just discovered a setting on my Android device. "Let apps use Bluetooth for more accurate location detection, even when Bluetooth is turned off" Better get out your Faraday cage, for now they let you turn it off. Next release you won't have that option.
Re: Sounds good to me (Score:2)
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Why should different people see different prices for the same item at the same story at the same time?
Uh, because you're willing to pay different prices?
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Nobody is willing to pay more than the guy standing next to them, if they see it happen.
Not unless they think paying more adds value to the good purchased (certainly in a hotel, you'll get extra service drool if you're paying full freight).
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
If I see onions for $.49/lb I will buy a bunch. A tub of yogurt for $7.50 marked down from $12 will be a hard pass.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Interesting)
If it was coupons, in isolation, then perhaps I would agree with you.
Actually, even then, not so much: https://www.forbes.com/sites/k... [forbes.com]
But that's not the issue. This is:
https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
Today, it's coupons. Tomorrow, it's your ability to get a mortgage or rent an apartment. It's whether your food purchasing habits affect your health insurance premiums. It's a fully indexed, searchable dossier if you decide to run for public office. It's a dataset that can probably be used against you in a court of law, but that you'll probably never have access to if its contents can exonerate you.
Targeted ads isn't the problem. The technology behind them and the lack of transparency is the cause of concern, and it's completely and utterly justified.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
This is part of the bean counters trying to run every system to peak efficiency for their organizations. It causes flash crashes on Wall Street. It cause rumors to flash around the world faster than the speed of truth.
The problem with this is it leaves systems we rely upon with no hysteresis. Any small jolt can send the system careening into unanticipated and frequently chaotic behavior. Decent engineer designed systems are built to gracefully degrade in adverse conditions. Bean counter designed systems are like dirty snowballs, accumulating offensive behavior that only really gets noticed when the system breaks. The things that cause it to break are like cracks in the system. When the system is run under too much strain, any one can break it wide open.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
This shit is here already, and is here to stay. Still want to go cashless for everything?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-05/daily-coffees-could-prevent-lenders-granting-home-loans/10970244 [abc.net.au]
The article is more focused on people getting a loan, rather than the fact that the banks are using all of the information they have on their customers, including all spending habits every time they use their card.
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You're not a weirdo, you're just outside the norm like me; I'm exactly the opposite. I don't like ANY ads. I find ads intrusive and annoying. Targeted ads are just ads focused enough to increase the frequency of people buying things they didn't intend to buy in the first place. That's not a benefit, it's a more efficient parasite. I'm the same way about entertainment bundles ... don't like them and won't pay for one. They sell bundles of dozens of channels of crap with maybe 3 or 4 channels I'll ever watch;
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
"buying things they didn't intend to buy in the first place"
That's a problem of personal weakness... not the advertiser's problem. No amount of ads are going to "make" me buy something I don't need/want. But they might show me something I didn't know I needed/wanted because I didn't know about it.
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Quick to the name calling.
Over the years I've found out about numerous things I wanted because of advertising. Often it's a case of not even knowing that a certain thing was _possible_ in the first place. If I don't know it's possible... how am I going to go searching for it?
That doesn't mean that advertising "made" me buy it... it only showed me something new. I was then able to research it and decide whether or not the price was worth the utility gained... just like any capitalist exchange.
plastic = au
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It doesn't matter how low they could go: all that matters is that I gain a sufficient amount of utility in my life in exchange for the money I am giving them. That is all.
If I'm happy with the utility and they're happy with the profit then both parties have made an equitable exchange...
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Call me a weirdo: but I'm fan of targeted advertising.
Actually you are pretty representative of the public at large.
Most people will take convenience above all else.
People, especially younger ones, place less and less value on privacy and autonomy.
The public is more and more turning over their lives to "AI"/machine learning, which makes decisions for us.
People will be told what to like, how to think, when to sleep, what is funny, what is healthy, how to play, etc, etc, all in the name of convenience.
Good intentions paved the way to hell.
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"People, especially younger ones, place less and less value on privacy and autonomy. " I think that is because the youngin's didn't grow up with examples of what happens when there is no privacy and autonomy. They will learn the hard way, and take the rest of us with them when it helps generate a dictatorship. China is a good example of what can happen. I hope the people there will get fed up. But then again, when the central system has that much power, is there any hope people can change it?
Re: Sounds good to me (Score:2)
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
No, that's the wrong type of targeted advertising. Think about it from the store's perspective. If they're giving coupons to people for stuff they already had a high probability of buying, then the store would be losing money. Better not to give them a coupon so they pay full price for stuff they're already going to buy. Coupons only make money for the store if they get a person to buy something they initially weren't going to buy. A coupon sent to a person for something they were going to buy anyway is a money loser for the store.
The good type of targeted advertising is the kind which notifies you of deals and products which you want, but didn't know about yet. I learned this when I lived for a couple years without a TV. Whenever my friends and I were trying to decide on a movie to watch, I was completely lost. I hadn't seen any of the commercials and trailers, so I had no idea what movies were playing and what they were about. Ads can actually inform you about the choices you have, allowing you to make better purchase selections. In this context, targeted ads are even better because you'll see fewer ads you're not interested in. And (theoretically) you won't see as many repeat ads.
So coupons for products you're already staring at while in the supermarket are a bad idea for the store. The ratio of people who wouldn've bought it anyway without a coupon, to people who were thinking of buying it but decided not to until your coupon came along, is too high and the coupon ends up costing the store money. Saavy shoppers would get into the habit of pausing in front of everything they need to get, hoping that a coupon for it will arrive on their phone, costing the store even more money. The best coupons (for the store) are the ones which get a person who wasn't going to shop at that store, to shop at that store. Usually they won't just buy the coupon item - they'll grab a few other things as well "since I'm already here." Same way fast food places make most of their money on drinks and fries added on to burger orders.
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What are you talking about? If you are standing looking at widget X and you get a coupon 20% off of widget X it is going to incentivize you to buy widget X. Plus most of these are manufacturer coupons anyway, not the store. So the coupon is an added incentive to buy widget X over competing widget Y.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Interesting)
First, coupons are in general a bad idea for the consumer.
Yes, people like them, but they are bad for you. You like them because you think you are getting a deal. You are not. They raise the price by that amount and offer a coupon. EVERY TIME. It's called Price Discrimination. The idea is to charge every single person the maximum they will pay. So the guy making 100k pays $5 for the ice cream cone, because he will reluctantly pay it, while the the guy making 40k pays only $4 for the same cone.
So you are actually being forced to do more work, collecting and using the coupon to help the manufacturer sell the wealthy guy the same thing at a higher price.
Coupons are the worst thing that ever happened to the consumer. It lets a businessman make the poor person do extra work so the business can charge the wealthy guy more money.
They do NOT save you money.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
No idea what you're talking about here.
I recently had a child. That child needs formula. The formula he likes/tolerates is (let's say) $30. It's always $30 (at every store, give or take a few dollars).
I (and everyone else) pays $30... often.
Sometimes there is a coupon (often through the mail, sometimes in-store) that allows me to purchase the formula for less than $30.
How exactly is that _not_ saving _me_ money?
When the coupon is out the price of the good doesn't go up to compensate. It stays right at the price it's always at.
As for "wealthy" vs "poor"... I make plenty of money and can afford the formula at $30. But that doesn't make me just throw away a coupon that's going to save me money. Often, I see that it's the other way around: people who have money _have it_ because they are good at not spending it frivolously. They look for deals and coupons and think critically about what they need. Coupons often play a role in that.
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This. Right here. Fried has it 100% correct. If you are willing to jump through hoops to get a better price, then you will come out ahead of the person that doesn't want to expend the extra added effort.
I work in a grocery. We have an app that does digital coupons. Every fucking week you have to go through it and find stuff. I usually just add my employee discount and a few things I need every Wednesday. Takes me a few minutes on my break. Totally worth the saving I get through out the week on items I will
Re: (Score:1)
Because without the coupon, the manufacturer could charge EVERYONE a price somewhere between the regular and coupon price(with same profit) and you would save money on average. Just like health insurance, all that extra paperwork costs money, be it printing and processing coupons or haggling back and forth between the doc and insurance. Nothing is free. Problem is human nature and the store trying to extract the maximum profit. So keep clipping to save a buck.
you don't get it (Score:1)
You're viewing it from the perspective of the individual within the existing system. Like with the prisoner's dilemma, your rational choice is clear. But that doesn't mean that the system is on the whole benefiting you due to your choice.
GP's exact point is that while you might be able to save or not by clipping coupons, the aggregate sum of consumers is paying more/unit due to advertising costs and price discrimination.
GP's point is that the system putting you into a prisoner's dilemma is bad for you, rela
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Call me a weirdo: but I'm fan of targeted advertising. Why would I be against a system that gives me coupons tailored to things I'm thinking of buying anyway?
I agree entirely.
Give me ads for shit I am interested in, not a bunch of shit I wouldn't take even if it were free.
Re: Sounds good to me (Score:2)
Yes, I would prefer no ads. However, those pushing ads will not honour that request.
Re: (Score:2)
Call me a weirdo: but I'm fan of targeted advertising.
You can think ads are great if you want. It isn't actually relevant. Ends don't justify means.
Why would I be against a system that gives me coupons tailored to things I'm thinking of buying anyway?
Same goes for ads on the internet. Most websites use ad revenue to survive... fine.... the least they can do is show me _relevant_ ads.
The problem is not advertising. It's the installation of sophisticated spy grids which follow everyone around in the real world as well as online building profiles of everyone to be used by whoever has money without the knowledge or consent of the person being stalked.
Re: (Score:2)
Not only are you a weirdo (and I'm not trying to be kind like the guy who got the funny mod), but you don't understand much about freedom.
Why can't you explicitly select which advertising you get to see? Why should you have to trust someone else's (actually some computer's) decisions about which ads for which products are most likely to persuade you into sending the money?
Actually, the implementation I'd prefer would put the entire thing up front. I'd be able to select various kinds of advertising and even
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Why should you have to trust someone else's (actually some computer's) decisions about which ads for which products are most likely to persuade you into sending the money?
A Pepsi doesn't decide who should drink it. That's absurd. (You are the product.)
Re: (Score:2)
Let me know if you ever fig out any part of my sig.
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Why has Slashdot sunk so low? (Score:2)
Apparently you have chosen to close your mind that way. I'm trying to imagine your justification, but I'm afraid it simply seems to quality as yet another case study to be cited in support of one of my current books, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck by Mark Manson.
Really. On the cover there's no "u" in the last word, just a splat. He does spell it out under the cover. Claims to be a "#1 International Bestseller", but I'm slightly skeptical of that particular claim, notwithstanding the subtitle "A Count
Re: (Score:2)
Public masturbation of 1976930 (Score:2)
Z^-1
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Z^-2
Re: (Score:2)
Call me a weirdo: but I'm fan of targeted advertising. Why would I be against a system that gives me coupons tailored to things I'm thinking of buying anyway?
Same goes for ads on the internet. Most websites use ad revenue to survive... fine.... the least they can do is show me _relevant_ ads.
I really have never understood why people are against targeted advertising...
I have a blood sugar issue, I like women... I can occasionally get thrush (women can carry it with zero symptoms). When I'm walking through the store with my sister and 7 yr old Nephew I don't want to explain why coupons for Canesten (yes it works on men too) and flucanozole are popping up, explaining why I like to travel to South America is hard enough. Advertisers would love to use targeted embarrassment to sell you things.
Besides, if the best targeted advertisers, Amazon, are any indication to go by,
Is this possible with wifi (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If the device is hooked to multiple wifi signals or is detectable then sure. If not all you can do is know if it's in range or not.
Re: Is this possible with wifi (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
You don't have to. Ruckus wireless included this feature in their access points 5-7 years ago. They are used in schools and hospitals to know where people are that need to be located quickly. I imagine other vendors have started including this feature in their higher end access points, too. They also rely on the implementation of multiple antennas in the AP to determine which direction the signal/response came from.
Multiple APs can triangulate a position, but a single one can still give a good idea.
Ruck
Became suspicious of this a few years ago (Score:3)
Was in a store and waiting on my wife. Strolled down the coffee maker aisle and loitered there, looking at my phone, not at coffee makers. Not in the market for one, have two, I'm not even looking to upgrade, and wasn't googling them at home. Later that night on Facebook: Coffee makers!
My wife thought I was paranoid, but I explained to her this is how it would work, albeit I suspected it was triangulation on the wifi network.
Re: (Score:1, Insightful)
And I bet you’re still stupid enough to keep your Facebook account despite this latest lesson in how they are only interested in tracking you to sell your information to others.
Jokes on them. (Score:3)
I have Bluetooth disabled on my phone (along with NFC) and often don't even bring my phone with me to the store.
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Some manufacturers have made certain that you will seldom turn off your bluetooth if you hope to listen to music from their gadget.
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Same here, by default Bluetooth is off, as well as wi-fi, and normally when I'm in a store I've powered down my phone. Only exception is if I'm there to buy a sale item, and even then the Bluetooth and wi-fi are off. Usually I just use paper coupons.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Same here. Keeping this things one without a specific need is asking for abuse.
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I have Bluetooth disabled on my phone (along with NFC)
Unless you've physically removed NFC tag disabling simply prevents your phone from detecting other NFC tags. It doesn't prevent something else from detecting you.
Imagine... (Score:1)
Imagine you are shopping in your favorite grocery store. As you approach the dairy aisle, you are sent a push notification in your phone
And the store can imagine back when I was a customer of theirs. If it eventually becomes too prevalent that I can't avoid it, I'll start turning off Bluetooth and WiFi on my phone or turn off my phone all together when I go there.
App hygiene (Score:2)
How about simple things:
1. you don't install crap that is responding to unrecognized
2. you install firewall on your phone
3. you use whatever privacy features are available for your phone OS
4. ???
5. Problem solved.
An app you installed (Score:5, Insightful)
an app on your phone that communicates with them... Bluetooth beacons, however, can track your location accurately from a range of inches to about 50 meters.
That last part is pretty misleading, the bacons do zero tracking at all. They are just like little floating uniqueIDs than an app can pick up on, from a farther distance than NFC tags.
That app is something a user installed, because they were interested in a particular company, enough to install the app... so it seems like the large majority of them would want to be given special offers via this detection, I mean why would you install something like a Target app unless you were after some kind of offers??
If I have install the Target app and it offers me a discount on yogurt because I've not been there for a while - yes please! I have decided by installing the app that I am OK with Target knowing more about me than some random wandering around the store with no signed relationship.
I didn't install it because I'm interested (Score:2)
Maybe if my wages hadn't dropped 20%+ in the last 20 years (inflation adjusted) I would care a little more about my privacy, but as it stands I'm just trying to stay afloat. I'm reminded of this comic [thenib.com]. I live in the society I was born in, not the one I want.
Re: (Score:3)
That last part is pretty misleading, the bacons do zero tracking at all. They are just like little floating uniqueIDs than an app can pick up on, from a farther distance than NFC tags.
They exist to facilitate tracking.
That app is something a user installed, because they were interested in a particular company, enough to install the app... so it seems like the large majority of them would want to be given special offers via this detection, I mean why would you install something like a Target app unless you were after some kind of offers??
TFA might be of some help in this department:
"So a hidden industry of third-party location-marketing firms has proliferated in response. These companies take their beacon tracking code and bundle it into a toolkit developers can use.
The makers of many popular apps, such as those for news or weather updates, insert these toolkits into their apps. They might be paid by the beacon companies or receive other benefits, like detailed reports on their users."
If I have install the Target app and it offers me a discount on yogurt because I've not been there for a while - yes please! I have decided by installing the app that I am OK with Target knowing more about me than some random wandering around the store with no signed relationship.
Here is the app descri
Beer Sale! (Score:2)
10% on your favorite beer but ONLY if you buy the 12 Pack.
Free buns today with Hotdogs purchase.
It isn't ALL bad!
Re: Android Zoo allows this type of app (Score:2)
But I powered down my phone (Score:2)
Damn you, interrupting robots!
Think! Turn the &#%@ phone off! (Score:1)
Unlike some, who've surrendered themselves to Bigcorp's constant surveillance, I refuse. When I'm out, I turn the phone -off-. It's an open secret that stores use your celly to follow you on premises and "serve" you nuisance notifications and ads.
I'm an adult, and I don't allow it. I value my privacy, and follow all the best practices to maintain it. My phone exists only to serve ME, I'm not serving my phone, and all the carp Bigcorp would love to "serve" me.
Take your privacy
a coupon for stuff, terrifying (Score:2)
what can be scarier
some of you people are as dumb as old people who think there is a real person on the other end doing this work manually and knows everything about you. Either you're dumb or you think people actually care about you.
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Yogurt (Score:2)
Chobani sucks. Fage was better, but then Fage went and changed their shit to lower calorie and ruined it. The "fruit" bit you get is now a congealed mass of pulp that you can't easily add to your yogurt (let alone mix it in, though Fage recommends against stirring). If Fage still sells the non shit varieties, they don't do so near me.
Really? (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure this has never happened to me, and I carry my phone everywhere, with wifi and bluetooth enabled. Maybe some of my security apps are blocking this, but it sounds like when you use someone else's computer and get totally spammed with ads. Not my experience at all.
- Necron69
Kroger/Fry's (Score:5, Interesting)
The local Fry's food store is covered in signs stating "That you are under video surveillance to provide an improved and enhanced shopping experience." They are so busy forcing people to check and scan their own groceries so they can 'dis-associate' their employees that they can't even locate which aisle has the items I want to buy. It seems like every other week they are relocating items in some strange order determined by an algorithm to maximize how many feet I have to walk and ensure I have to cover every in of the place to buy groceries.
YAWN (Score:3)
THis is 2013 tech. Why is Slashdot posting about this now? This is news for nerds not news for Grandmas
They can't track paper (Score:2)
Wouldn't I have to install malware first? (Score:1)
I can easily believe they can "track" my phone, because it has all sorts of network interfaces enabled and always looking around. But "push notifications"? That sounds like something where I would need to download, install, and run their code first, in order to make it work. _What_ would I get the notification _from?_
"Hidden technology"? WTF? (Score:2)
Bluetooth is not "hidden". Anybody with some minimal tech competence knows it is there.
Bluetooth off now (Score:2)
It's bad enough being pestered by shop staff without my phone being spammed as well. This why we can't have nice things.
Luddites win again (Score:2)
Not having a "smart" phone pays off bigly. Again. No worries about stores hounding me for this or that, no tracking (other than cameras), no delving into my personal life (except when I ask where there the gallon jugs of lube are located). Nothing but pure, quiet bliss as I go about my business, unhindered and untethered from the dystopian nightmare of big data.
Fuck that bullshit (Score:2)