Farmer Lobbying Group Sells Out Farmers, Helps Enshrine John Deere's Tractor Repair Monopoly (vice.com) 148
Jason Koebler writes: The California Farm Bureau, a group that lobbies on behalf of farmers, reached a "right to repair" agreement with the Equipment Dealers Association (which represents John Deere and other manufacturers) last week. But the specifics of the agreement were written by the manufacturers, and falls far short of providing the types of change that would be needed to make repairing tractors easier. In fact, the agreement makes the same concessions that the Equipment Dealers Association announced in February it would voluntarily give to all farmers. The agreement will not allow farmers to buy repair parts, break firmware DRM, or otherwise alter software for the purposes of repair.
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Dude. This place is a cesspool of libertarians (both right and left wing). You know what we think about your imaginary property and or right to do whatever we want with the product we bought with our MONEY.
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Cue the Cuecat here...
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Then stop pushing for stupid laws that affect my life and raise my taxes.
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:5, Insightful)
If they wanted to be left alone, maybe they should tone down the criticism of how everyone else are living their lives...
Er, wut!?
Seriously.
If someone is trying to control how you live your life, then they are the nearly polar-opposite of a small-'L' libertarian. Believing that everybody should stay out of other people's business and leave everyone else the hell alone to think, believe, marry, smoke this or that, or say stupid and hateful shit or sing beautiful music, etc etc is the short version of being libertarian. Not some stupid shit about lawlessness/Somalia and no government.
Just a government that isn't in your grill all the time micro-managing, regulating, invading your privacy and violating civil rights, and taxing the shit out of everything and everyone, all resulting in the US having the world's largest percentage of a nation's citizens incarcerated in prisons.
Yeah, libertarians are a real scary bunch, alright.
Watch out, some sneaky libertarian could be covertly leaving you the hell alone right NOW!!!1!!
Strat
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Union carbide did nothing wrong!
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From the Libertarian point of view, John Deere is a party equal in standing to any farmer. Anyone disliking John Deere's or Digital Convergence's prices or policies should simply take his business elsewhere.
My complaint, however, was not about the nature of the disagreement between (some of) the farmers and a company, but the inflammatory tone of the headline. There was no complaint, that someone "sold out" anyone during the CueCat discussions, was there?
DMCA is not a libertarian principle (Score:1)
Anyone disliking John Deere's or Digital Convergence's prices or policies should simply take his business elsewhere.
If laws were fair and just then that would be true.
But we have an organization that is abusing ill-conceived laws to apply force against us. The government is acting as an agent of John Deere. The main belief of Libertarians is that the government isn't to use force against its citizens, not to extract taxes, and not to saddle them with needless regulation. Individual freedom is sacrosanct, but because often such regulation is heavily biased towards one party we cannot allow them to exist.
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:5, Informative)
The divergence from Libertarianism is when they prevented reverse-engineering of the DRM. In a truly free market, John Deere is free to try and lock in as much as possible, and third parties are free to try and break that lock and undercut them.
And how did tractors get this special right, I'm sure game console manufacturers would love to be able to legally lock out the third party controller market...
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Better lobbyists obviously. Deere dumped millions into buying lots of votes in congress to exempt tractors from the same repair laws that cars are subject to.
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Um... game companies can do that (Score:3)
Re:Um... game companies can do that (Score:4, Interesting)
> If you want to make a controller for a game console expect to buy a license.
So a special agent in every house, and watching your every move? To each his own I guess. Personally, anyone who buys a piece of hardware/software and takes it home should be allowed to do what they want in the privacy of their home. And even be able to share what they learned with anyone they want. That is the only way to have a free society and freedom of speech. Now the government doesn't have to allow you to make a profit, and we can agree on reasonable terms to require licenses for profiting if it is built on the work of others... But making it illegal to figure things out, find the truth so to speak, and share it should not be infringed by the government in the USA. Those who want that are not the friends of the people.
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John Deere is a party equal in standing to any farmer.
John Deere being a bit *more* equal to any farmer by virtue of having laws *specifically* written in a way to cause problems for their customers for their benefit.
here was no complaint, that someone "sold out" anyone during the CueCat discussions, was there?
What is a bit egregious is that a group that names itself for and accepts money from farmers to nominally represent their interests are seemingly completely folding to what John Deere wants. John Deere wanted the legislation to not proceed and their first offer was what they ended up with. One would expect either for them to get more concessions
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:4, Insightful)
Ummm.... No. Not even close. John Deere has the right to make whatever products they like and market them however they want. As does Husqvarna and Kubotai and every other manufacturer. But they are ALL required to deal honestly with the customers, and restrictive "terms of use" must be FULLY DISCLOSED at the time of sale.
And once the product is sold, it BELONGS TO the purchaser. They can break it, modify it, fix it, whatever they want. "Right to Repair" laws ought to be unneeded because they should be flipping obvious. If Deere wants to sell tractors that cannot be repaired, then the dealer needs to have big signs up in the showrooms. And they'd better make sure sure that you can't take them apart with ordinary tools.
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:5, Funny)
Dude. This place is a cesspool of libertarians (both right and left wing). You know what we think about your imaginary property
There is no single "libertarian" view of intellectual property.
Libertarian perspectives on intellectual property [wikipedia.org].
From the citation: Libertarians have differing opinions on the validity of intellectual property.
I grew up in a farming community, and the political views of farmers is basically: The damn government should keep their hands off my crop subsidies!!!
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:4, Insightful)
It's against the hacker ethos. Period. RMS started his software crusade because he couldn't change a printer's software driver. I'm pretty sure the gun nut ESR would be against this as well. Lessig was also against this kind of legislation and he was working for a Supreme Court judge appoint by Reagan. I think our opinion is quite broad across the political spectrum. Unfortunately there is a Cult of the Mac in the house which seems to think it's better to discard our values in the name of... what?
How well did the lawsuit of Apple vs the repair guys go exactly? Yeah right.
If this went to court I can expect what would happen to John Deere.
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This is a classic shell game applied to political theory. They hide their real beliefs and the fact that Libertarianism is a bankrupt philosophy designed to concentrate wealth amongst the already wealthy.
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:4)
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Or better yet, why don't they put their money into buying tractors from one of John Deere's many competitors (like Case, Massey Ferguson, etc.)?
Oh yeah, because farmers are cheap bastards who want John Deere's low prices but without all the gotchas.
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John Deere, low prices? Where and when did that happen?
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Well, then go buy from Case then. Is there some law that says a farmer has to buy Deere?
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Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:5, Informative)
The (power takeoffs/accessory wiring) are like lens mountings for cameras.
They get locked into ecosystems.
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No tractor manufacturer gives right to repair these days. John Deere has the legal bullseye because they're the most ubiquitous, because they're the best value in a sea of pirates.
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Or better yet, why don't they put their money into buying tractors from one of John Deere's many competitors (like Case, Massey Ferguson, etc.)?
Which one of those is repair-friendly?
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Hire a small tech company to design print open-source circuit boards and replace the "guts." A tractor isn't that complicated - some lights a few moving "limbs" / threshers.
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If you think that right to repair has nothing to do with nerds, go back to playing Magic the Gathering (tm) and watching My Little Pony. The adults are conversatin.
Re:Headline from "Pravda" (Score:5, Informative)
I thought right to repair laws were interesting to Slashdot?
For many large farms, their farming equipment is far more advanced and cutting edge, then most silicon valley firms.
If you really want to play with the high tech stuff go into farming.
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These aren't the same days as when my grandfather bought a tractor in the 40s and kept it going for 30 years. A relative did some contracting with John Deere and said that those tractor cabs were nicer than any car he had ridden in. Turn on the A/C, push the "go" button, and it plows the field while you take a nap.
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Nothing. What happened to you that you don't like your Slashdot talking about DRM, technological bypasses and laws that infringe on the rights of hackers and tinkerers? When did your inner nerd die?
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BTW your "complaint" is sheer mud slinging and has no content or logic. Typical for a right wing troll, or a Russian government troll trying to destabilize the United States.
How does it feel to be working for Putin?
Question for John Deere (Score:5, Insightful)
If farmers do not actually own the vehicle they pay for, but instead only receive a âoelicense to operate the vehicleâ as John Deere claims, shouldn't repairs all be at the cost of John Deer, and any losses due to mechanical or software failure mean John Deere is liable for damages...
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It all depends on the sales contract. Could open-source tractor plans be an option?
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There's a rule lawyers have; it doesn't matter so much what the contract says, as what the judge says.
If farmers are being subjected to unreasonable repair costs, even if they agreed to them in the contract it could be ruled that John Deere was not acting in good faith by hiding the total cost of ownership (for things like multi-hundred dollar visits just to clear alarms).
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Because the EULA says otherwise.
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They own it, just like you own a copy of a software application. The ownership of said product does not entitle you to disassemble, reverse engineer, or modify the app. They can diagnose and repair problems, they just can't modify or hack their equipment. They're all a bunch of welfare queens anyway, so what does it matter. The government will just give them more cash to offset any losses.
Re:Question for John Deere (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine if all of these 'welfare queens' stopped running their farms tomorrow. How long do you think it would take for you to go hungry?
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How do they diagnose and repair, if they don't have access to the tools or spare parts?
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This
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Unless some law explicitly forbids disassembling, reverse engineering...
Of which there are too many. Our parliaments have been far too generous to the industry lobbies.
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Our parliaments have been far too generous to the industry lobbies.
True, but the industry lobbies are the ones paying for the parliamentarians, so they should get fair value.
I'm pretty sure it was George W Bush who said "You gotta dance with the ones what brung ya".
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Common law requires that a contract have considerations for it to be valid. Essentially a consideration is that there is an exchange between two parties, it can be money, a promise, or goods. A judge can decide if an exchange is valid, and legal code often clarifies these for certain areas of interest. It's a centuries old principle that still generally applies today in simple contracts.
There are six basic requirements in a legally enforceable contract:
An offer.
An acceptance.
Competent parties who have the l
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well maybe some should counter sue saying if (Score:2)
well maybe some should counter sue saying if John deer is just renting the hardware to me then they need to pick up the repair tab on there own dime.
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I would equate this more to a vehicle lease. While the car is under warranty the dealership takes care of the repairs, but not normal maintenance like oil changes, tires, etc. Once the vehicle is no longer covered by the factory warranty the lessee is then on the hook for any repairs to the vehicle for the remainder of the lease.
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No (Score:2)
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The establishment and the populists are on opposite sides, you know? The megacorps and other big money donors never mat an immigrant they didn't like - anything to increase labor supply and bring down wages - and free global trade benefits the largest players,
Def. California Raisins (Score:5, Funny)
Should have let the California Raisins negotiate instead.
The best part of having the California Raisins represent you, is that if they fail and you are in danger of starving you can feast on the tasty flesh of your negotiation team.
The best negotiators are always the ones with skin in the game, however wrinkly.
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stop buying them
Not an option. This isn't happening in a vacuum. As a result of both IP laws and regulatory hurdles/capture the farm equipment market place is — like almost every other god damn thing in the Western world — an oligopoly, and they all inflict the same terms on the buyers. Three to four manufacturers control nearly 90 percent of the farm equipment market in the US. Naturally you'll be told this is all the fault of "capitalism," despite the fact that this situation is the consequence of IP laws
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Case, Massey Ferguson, and dozens of others. But farmers like John Deere because they're cheap. But that cheap comes with strings attached.
Farmers are basically cheap bastards who want to have their cake and eat it too. They want Deere's cheap prices, but they don't want the repair center lock-in that allows Deere to sell so cheap.
Re:So Stop Buying John Deere (Score:5, Informative)
lol, you obviously haven't compared tractor prices in a while. The reason they stick with John Deere is the high tech pieces can all communicate with each other. Do some research on precision farming, where the everything talks to each other (tractor/planter/sprayer/combine). When the tech has problems, or when a a particular techie farmer wants to do something different it is a pain in the ass. When it works they get increased yield for less expenditures.
Now I know a few who are keeping "an old" tractor in the shed in case they have electronics problems they have something to use for the couple days until it gets fixed. The big farmers don't care because they have multiple units. The guys who really get burned are the little farmers with a mid range $100k tractor that can't afford a backup....but honestly, they are being driven out of business by a lot more things than downtime from computer failures on a tractor.
John Deere isn't the only option, but Case IH and New Holland are really the only other two that are in the same league for broad equipment. Sure you could get a Claas or Gleaner combine if you have a specific need like long crops or higher moisture but you won't have a planter by either of them.
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So John Deere offers better value for the price then, because they invested the R&D to have their equipment communicate better while their competition sat on their asses. Either way, there's nothing to stop their competitors from investing in some R&D and offering that same technology too, and nothing forcing anyone to buy Deere.
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la la la la it's all free market la la la la la la this is all perfectly fair and just la la la la la la
"but what about all the lobbyist-driven regulations and laws that led to this blatantly not-freemarket situation being notfree-manipulated by a closed-market olig-"LALALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA INVISIBLE HAND
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Obviously the farmers who are buying Deere think they're a better value than the competition, or they wouldn't be buying them would they? It's not like John Deere doesn't have plenty of competition to choose from. Shit, I used to work on a farm and I never rode a Deere in my life. My farm bled red, thank you very much.
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If not being able to fix them makes them worse than other tractors, stop buying them. If it's still a better tractor even after all of this, then maybe you keep buying them. It does suck, but if you keep putting money in their pockets, they'll just keep doing what they're doing.
Most farmers already have a substantial investment in machinery that hooks up to John Deere tractors, etc. They'd have to throw all that away.
Most of them simply can't afford to do that, no matter what the cost of continuing with John Deere is.
Re:So Stop Buying John Deere (Score:4, Insightful)
I take it you haven't been inside a modern tractor?
Most attachments are electronically controlled from the drivers cab, it all has sensors, it all needs to communicate, it all refuses to do a damn thing until you hook it up to an approved tractor.
Printer cartridge protection is nothing by comparison.
Why is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
Any group that "lobbies on behalf of $group" will whore their services to the highest bidder.
It just happens that the Equipment Dealers Association offered them a sweeter deal than the farmers that they ostensibly represent.
Not that they will return the farmers' money or anything like that.
Re:Why is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Interesting)
whore
You can bet a son or daughter in-law of some California Farm Bureau board member recently landed a $300K/year no-show "chairman" job at a Deere funded NGO. Some $200K and $150K/year vice-chairmen spots were doled out as well.
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Any group that "lobbies on behalf of $group" will whore their services to the highest bidder.
It just happens that the Equipment Dealers Association offered them a sweeter deal than the farmers that they ostensibly represent.
Not that they will return the farmers' money or anything like that.
Thank you. I'll go one further and say it's sad just how many fools out there think "BBBUT they are our guys"
Compelling them to sell you parts (Score:2)
Okay, I get that farmers should be able to repair their own equipment (if they actually own it, not leased) using 3rd party parts and mechanics. But Deere absolutely SHOULD NOT be forced to sell parts to someone if they don't want to. They are a private company, and as such, they get to choose the customers they serve and sell their shit to--period.
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Their equipment has DRM to prevent 3rd-party parts, I believe. They SHOULD be forced to because those are the terms they wanted.
Re:Compelling them to sell you parts (Score:4, Informative)
Okay, I get that farmers should be able to repair their own equipment (if they actually own it, not leased) using 3rd party parts and mechanics. But Deere absolutely SHOULD NOT be forced to sell parts to someone if they don't want to. They are a private company, and as such, they get to choose the customers they serve and sell their shit to--period.
The problem is that in order for an official repair to take place, famers have to truck the equipment to the nearest repair center ($$$ and time to arrange a truck), have the repair done by authorized techs ($$$$$), and then truck it back ($$$ and more time to arrange a truck). Not only does that waste a lot of time for the farmer (and potential cause crop loss due to the wasted time), it is quite expensive, especially if the equipment needs to be brought to the shop multiple times.
Most farmers are pretty handy and can do their own equipment repairs, and don't need to spend all these gobs of money on trucking the equipment and paying someone else to repair. All they need is the manuals & schematics to help troubleshoot, the diagnostic equipment that connects to the onboard computer, and the necessary replacement parts, and most can do an on-site repair in a fraction of the time and cost.
JD on the other hand, doesn't want to give out the paperwork, doesn't want to release the diagnostic tools to private owners, and doesn't want to sell parts to private owners.
Basically, the whole argument comes down to money. Farmers want to be able to perform cost effective repairs on equipment that they *own*. JD wants to make money off repairs and wants to prevent owners from doing their own repairs since they won't make much money from repairs that way.
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It sounds like Deere agreed to give them the manuals. So let them DIY their own parts then, or buy them from a third party.
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except for the software locks that dont allow for those third party parts.
Essentially John Deere is afraid to be held to the same standards as the automotive industry, this is because they have repeatedly used software to limit hardware performance and don't want the farmers to get to those extra levels of performance and extras that they haven't paid for. JD was betting on the stupidity of farmers to just go along with it and not put up a fight.
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They are a private company, and as such, they get to choose the customers they serve and sell their shit to--period.
According to a rather famous court case concerning a wedding cake that's not true.
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LOL. Are farmers a protected class under the Civil Rights Act?
Golden opportunity for Mahindra et. al. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not sure if Mahindra does the same thing or not; but I've noticed a few ads for them up here now and then, on radio stations where ag people might be listening.
The Deere hats are seen by some as being as American as the flag almost; but real patriots don't sit still for shit like this. I'd be all over this if I were in marketing for those other companies. Suggested slogan: "Shoot your Deere this season".
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Re:John Deere is Apple of their industry (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a lot of factors that work against them here.
At this point, it's an effective monopoly. They'll call it "market leader," but their "lead market position," makes it hard to produce cheaper tractors, or to compete in the same market for new equipment, either at scale or dollar for dollar.
For large farms, it works in their favor, so the biggest of the big appreciate having single vendor suppliers with dedicated staff and a rotation of equipment. So the big bucks still favor them anyway, and that's not likely to change.
However, this hits small farms especially hard. The equipment is good, but it's far more complex than your average commuter vehicle. Blow a sensor and your land lies fallow for a few days because the system will refuse to start the motor. You need an authorized repairman to come out, suss it out, source a replacement, and fix it. Half the time it's just them putting their authorization code in to restart while you're chasing daylight. Imagine every time your computer crashes, you'd need to get a microsoft tech out - even if you're running linux - to authorize you to reboot your machine? That's a 300-450 cost, a few hundred for the appointment plus $150/hr.
Not only that, these farms are on a fairly high risk/reward system. They have to pay out now, and the weather and markets dictate later what their effort was worth. They're risk adverse. It's hard to go with a new tractor, system, etc. Sure, the ability to fix it yourself is great, but not if you're required to exercise that right 5x more than you would with the known brand.
So there are folks out there trying to make replacements, but it's like trying to sell linux to the stereotypical mom. Sure, it can do as much, and yeah, technically it might be able to do more than that old chestnut, buuuuuuttt.... well, find a folk who refers to "the facebooks" and starts browser searches with "please," and see how far you get with them installing, configuring and using linux on their own. Oh, and it costs more than windows too.
That's the problem with a monopoly, it doesn't compete fairly in a capitalist market. They've locked down the product, the repair and replacement parts AND the repairmen, and ensured there's no realistic competition in any of those markets, and unlike apple, who's faced a lot of flack for attempting to deliberately lock out third party parts or repairs, they've successfully lobbied state and federal governments to double down on their farm equipment cartel. They're actually trying to make it not only difficult to do manually, and impossible to get the parts elsewhere, but they're trying to make it literally illegal. The claim is that you COULD modify software or settings which impact emissions and other features, which are protected by law, and therefore consumers can't be allowed to do so.
The fact that they could get a farmers right lobby group to effectively cave shows the power of their monopoly, and that's just another sign that it's not a free market.
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but their "lead market position," makes it hard to produce cheaper tractors.
Oh, you're just racist against smart farm equipment and Gigantic Corporations. You Luddite, you ... you ... I can't even say the words in polite company. (Heh, company -- get it?) Go find and pick on someone slightly or greatly smaller than you, like WE do. It's easier that way.
Corporations (AKA People v2) have feelings, too! "Hey, that's MY rube you're fleecing! Go away and find your own!"
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I actually worked for several years writing software that acted as both parts finder and deal match making between dealers in the replacement part market business, and agriculture parts were a large part of that market. AGCO in particular was an especially important customer of ours, and we put in quite a great deal of extra effort on their behalf.
It's just you were at the point where you needed specialists to even begin to approach the problem, and third party and aftermarket replacements were being squee
Farm Bureau (Score:1)
The Farm Bureau represents interests of those individuals and groups that are involved in agriculture. Some of them are farmers many others are businesses or trade associations involved in agriculture. The Farm Bureau protects the interests of bankers and farm credit providers and equipment manufacturers to name just a few. It is no surprise to me that they would take this position on equipment repair. Farm Bureau is right wing but there are more centrist or even left organizations such as the Farmers Union
No Surprise... (Score:2)
Category:Tractor manufacturers of the United State (Score:2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Tractor_manufacturers_of_the_United_States
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Did you click through? You realize they list manufacturers that went bankrupt a 100 years ago, right?
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You do realize, this doesn't appear to have anything to do with what farmers agreed to when they buy a tractor, new or used. This is a manufacture burying DRM into their product, and it doesn't matter if the customer knows, the manufacture can choose to enforce the DRM at any time. This is likely coming to you, Tesla for example has do not fix/update VIN code lists of cars they will not sell parts to or update software on, because they appear to them to have unauthorized repairs.
Without the right for owners
Sounds like we need an OpenTractor standard (Score:2)
With all of the "yet another worthless Maker projects" all over the place, why not start something like OpenTractor?
After all, do we really need another binary clock or overly-complex conference badge?
Interesting parallel to IoT inside my house (Score:1)
The problems faced by the farmers with closed access proprietary technology remind me of the brick wall I ran into trying to find a smart outlet to control a simple 115V hot water recirculation pump.
Every smart device seems to need to talk to to a central plant somewhere to gain authorization. I don't want to speak to Alexa or Google Assistant to control the pump. (I cannot bear the idea of Experian selling logs of my hot-water-recirculation habits to the highest bidder.) All I want is an internal web int
What free market? (Score:2, Insightful)
What free market? It is a special, weird law (DMCA) that is preventing them from repairing the tractors. A free market wouldn't ever have anything like DMCA.