Tesla Files Patent For Automatic Turn Signals (cnet.com) 161
Tesla has filed a patent for automatic turn signals. The filing details a system that uses Autopilot sensors to determine when drivers are going to make a turn and signal automatically. CNET reports: Tesla wants its vehicles to signal automatically without the driver needing to go through the agony that is lifting their finger and moving it up or down by several inches. The way that Tesla envisions it working is that the car detects the driver's intent to change lanes or make a turn by using the Autopilot hardware at its disposal, it then works to sense if there are other vehicles nearby and if it detects them, it puts the signal on for the driver. If it works, it will be brilliant but given the fact that Tesla has remained adamant that it doesn't need driver monitoring systems for Autopilot, it seems questionable that the vehicle would be able to detect a driver's intent to turn based solely on external observation.
Snark misses at least one important point (Score:3)
From TFS:
Here's the thing. A very large number of drivers out there are too... something... to signal when they're going to be making a turn. Lazy, stupid, incompetent, rude, selfish, clueless... pick your adjective. Or all of them. So this is a very good thing, in that the rest of us will get more warning that memaw or peepaw is about to
There is no "important point" here (Score:3)
This is the usual pseudo-futuristic mumbo-jumbo from Tesla they sprout out to change the subject when they are about to miss a financial or a production goal. It used to work, but these days even the rabidly pro-Tesla media are starting to stay away from peddling these musk nuggets, and fewer and fewer people fall for them.
Remember how Tesla announced a few weeks ago how their "security" was second to none and how they would be graciously gifting it to the rest of the automobile world to save it from mista
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This is the usual pseudo-futuristic mumbo-jumbo from Tesla they sprout out to change the subject when they are about to miss a financial or a production goal.
Your criticisms of Tesla are perhaps correct (I do not know), but they are irrelevant here. Here we are just making fun of Tesla because we think it is fun to mock this patent. It does not really have anything to do with anything important about Tesla. It is a potentially bonding moment for the bros who both like and dislike Tesla. Get with it, dude.
Unless you show me the citation where Tesla is publicly proclaiming this patent as some awe-inspiring reason for higher company valuation, I think that the
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You'd make a fortune in Kentucky. When I lived there ~20 years ago if you saw someone use their turn signals on I64, it was even odds that they had out-of-state plates.
I have no idea what the situation is now, but based on my co-workers being surprised when I turned my head to check my blind spot when changing lanes, I'm guessing it hasn't changed much.
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Seriously.
How will the former BMW drivers disable it?
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Yes, the fact that he said "marques of car" gave it away.
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Or were about to turn in the opposite direction. I gave a summer seminar at the University of Louisville years ago, and I never saw so many drivers who were clearly totally wasted. They make some nice bourbon down there, so it was totally understandable. I knew tenured professors there who kept a bottle of Pappy or some other fine bourbon
Re:Detect Intent? (Score:5, Insightful)
So Tesla is doing mind reading tech now?
If you are using the built in GPS, then the car knows the destination. If the directions say to turn at the next intersection, and the driver merges into the right lane and slows down, it is reasonable to assume the intent is to turn. They can also keep a count of how often the driver turns without signaling, and "help" those with poor habits.
Anyway, 99% of "obvious" patents posted on Slashdot are really not so obvious. You have to read the "claims" section, written in dense legalize, to understand what is actually being patented, and it is usually very different from the headline written to manufacture outrage.
Disclaimer: I have not read the patent.
Re:Detect Intent? (Score:4, Informative)
If ... the driver merges into the right lane and slows down
Which should only happen after a turn signal is activated, and a head and mirror check. Right?
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If ... the driver merges into the right lane and slows down
Which should only happen after a turn signal is activated, and a head and mirror check. Right?
Well the indicator should only go on after mirrors have been checked and if it is safe. So I cant imainge Telsa managing to install automated indicators without installing driver monitoring (which they are adamant they don't need)
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Well the indicator should only go on after mirrors have been checked and if it is safe.
I learned that you turn on the turn signal before checking your mirrors. Of course, when I learned to drive, it was because the driver in the lane next to you might be polite enough to slow down a bit to let you change lanes.
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Then every once in a while some idiot in the fast lane will suddenly brake. When I see this I know they're about to miss their exit and will try to cross 4 lanes of traffic in just as many seconds.
Other case
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But you are a human being with actual intelligence.
Artificial "intelligence" comes nowhere close to the intuitive understanding humans have of other human behaviors.
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Maybe in 70% of the cases, a car edging towards another lane means they're trying to change lanes. If you drive for a million miles, you'll be able to come up with that using just statistics. If you record and label those m
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In all fairness, actual intelligence also comes nowhere close to understanding human behavior.
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And here I thought I was the only person that watches other drivers and freeway ramps as I approach.
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They can also keep a count of how often the driver turns without signaling, and "help" those with poor habits.
It probably is a lot easier to detect if a driver should have signalled (and didn't), so that's not a bad idea. Especially if by "help" you mean electroshock to the groin.
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That's how my mother-in-law's been driving for years.
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In other words, Tesla will force their "autonomous" cars to drive like the worst driver you can imagine. Have they learned nothing from Uber killing pedestrians left and right?
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It doesn't really matter what you are supposed to do if nobody does it we shouldn't be holding out until we attain better than actual human behavior. In the wild seeing someone signal a turn is rare enough let alone a lane change (with a few exceptions in very den
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Have they learned nothing from Uber killing pedestrians left and right?
Hey, Chicken Little, a grand total of 1 pedestrian has been killed by an autonomous Uber vehicle. That's one. Singular, not plural.
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How many human lives are O.K. to kill recklessly? Is "a grand total of 1" the right number for you?
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Don't move the goalposts. You said "Have they learned nothing from Uber killing pedestrians left and right?"
That's like you losing your virginity and immediately talking about how you're sleeping with women left and right.
You're just wrong, "pedestrians" have not been killed, that's just a simple fact. "A pedestrian" has been killed.
At least get the facts right.
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Ummm.... I'm not sure I've ever seen news about political events that wasn't designed for political impact.
Re:Detect Intent? (Score:5, Informative)
Why don't people actually read the patent?
The patent is an extension on an already-extant concept of automatic turn signals based on a person about to leave a lane. These suffer from an excessive rate of false negatives and can annoy the driver. The patent extends the concept to reduce the rate of false negatives by checking to see if a turn signal would actually even benefit anyone, and if not, not bothering to turn it on. The flow chart (as spelled out in Fig. 12-14) is "Is vehicle about to cross lane line?" -> "Is driver applying steering action?" -> "Is another vehicle in the vicinity that would benefit?" -> "Activate turn signal". Other elements of nuance include things like where the road is going and thus whether the steering input is likely simply to keep the driver within their lane; and looking at the route the user has selected in navigation to see whether they're likely to (or at least supposed to) be taking a given exit and are likely switching lanes for that.
It's basically just taking more data into account in order to reduce the false positive rate on an already-existing concept.
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Probably correct about the sensors they are using now.
But the clever engineers designing these control systems are also imagining sensors Tesla might use in the future. Noticing that it is possible to improve an algorithm is important, even if it is a theoretical exercise in the medium term.
When the Musk is asked to write the checks to improve the sensor array from X to either Y or even swankier Z, he will want a list of the delta that Z enables. This could be one bullet point on that list. Now this part
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This is the car "saving you" from violating this law. It's OK if it tries to only do it when it's pretty sure you forgot and not other times when it thinks you chose not to signal on purpose or that signalling may not be appropriate.
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Yeah, but the moment you add a feature like that to catch cases where a person forgets, people come to rely on it. That's why they got rid of the automatic landing gear extension feature on the Piper Arrow - they found that pilots were relying on it and leaving the control in the "retract" position at all times.
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I don't see why it's bad for the car to blink the turn signal to notify other people what's happening if the driver has failed to. It seems to deeply offend you, though.
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Turn signal effort is an enforced exaction, not a voluntary contribution.
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I could see how this might be cool from a technology perspective, but I have a lot of difficulty believing that it could reach a level of accuracy that could have any practical value.
The real solution is that any driver relying on "automatic turn signals" needs to be taken off the road and not allowed to drive.
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The patent is an extension on an already-extant concept of automatic turn signals based on a person about to leave a lane.
Really? Never heard of it. Even if all the claims held what you essentially got is an auto-blink that'll start after the person is already crossing into a different lane. Which is legally too late in most jurisdictions and would lead consumers to believe they don't need to blink because the car will do that. But I guess that's the same story as the autopilot, who needs to drive when the car can do that? Tesla makes really great electric cars, but when it comes to self-driving features they're one notch abov
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The patent extends the concept to reduce the rate of false negatives by checking to see if a turn signal would actually even benefit anyone, and if not, not bothering to turn it on... "Is another vehicle in the vicinity that would benefit?"
What about people?
When I'm walking down a road and reach a side road I need to cross if there's a car approaching parallel to me I'll pause and check to see if its indicators are flashing before I cross - call it a sensible self preservation tactic. Not that it's a particularly useful tactic though, as it's almost funny how many drivers only indicate after I've stepped into the road. My right of way at that point is somewhat moot.
Honestly this strikes me as just another aid in training bad drivers to be com
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It would be better if instead of turning the turn signal on it just warned the driver that they were turning without indicating. Otherwise people are going to start relying on it like they started to rely on autopilot, and not bothering to do it themselves or pay any attention.
A loud an annoying warning would train people to be better drivers and indicate properly. False positives would be annoying but are going to affect this system just the same.
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I have no question a system which had enough data could do better than random chance at anticipating a turn. The question is how far in advance and how much better than chance?
It's a long established result in neuroscience that your conscious awareness of deciding to move voluntarily actually lags the activation of your motor neurons to actually move by hundreds of milliseconds. Our conscious timeline in which we are aware of the desire to move and the move follows is actually an out-of-order fiction cons
The point of turn signals (Score:5, Insightful)
The point of turn signals is not to engage when the turn is in progress, but to indicate the intent of a turn. Doing it when the drive is pulling on the wheel to make the turn will go against the road rules of many locales.
Unless of course Tesla has developed a telepathic module for their cars. In which case I take back what I said.
Re:The point of turn signals (Score:5, Insightful)
The point of turn signals is not to engage when the turn is in progress, but to indicate the intent of a turn. Doing it when the drive is pulling on the wheel to make the turn will go against the road rules of many locales.
In the addition, turn signals are supposed to be used whether *or not* there are other cars around. Technically some jurisdictions don't require signaling if there are no other vehicles around, but good driving practices suggest always signaling because 1) you might be wrong about no other vehicles being around (and if you haven't seen the other vehicle that is actually there, your signaling might just give the other driver enough warning that you are about to encroach on their space), and 2) always signaling builds a good habit and reduces one piece of driving cognitive load. If your brain isn't thinking about "do I have to single at this time" it has more cycles to think about other driving safety related issues.
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I like how you think.
Re:The point of turn signals (Score:4, Insightful)
Turn signals are not interpreted only by other motorists on the road but also by pedestrians.
This is very useful on parking lots, for instance.
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That drives me nuts when trying to cross the road as a pedestrian. Some drivers just don't bother indicating whether they are going straight on or turning left when they pass an intersection. So they make the turn without indicating.
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It varies by state law and details. It is unwise and perhaps impolite to impede traffic. But under certain conditions in, say, CA, the pedestrians have the right of way and the cars are required to immediately stop.
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I leave my turn signals on, never know when I'm gonna turn turn turn
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Unless of course Tesla has developed a telepathic module for their cars. In which case I take back what I said.
I haven't read the patent but telepathy probably isn't necessary. Humans leave a lot of subconscious clues about their intents and, if you have the right sensors, in many cases, you can detect what they are about to do before they have consciously decided to do it. My favorite example of this is FMCW Lidar and pedestrians at a crosswalk. You can literally see subtle doppler shifts in how they are distributing their weight well before they've taken a step and probably before they've even consciously decid
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According to my local rules of the road, if you want to take a freeway exit, you have to start signalling 1000 ft before the exit. What kind of unconscious action would you expect to be able to pick up at that distance ?
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The best I can suggest is that if you make a particular trip often (e.g. your commute) it could assume that you are going to do it. But ideally you'd want it to say "Dave, I suggest you signal turning off the highway now".
Even with GPS I would not suggest it automatically going as far as signalling. Sometimes there is only part of a journey I need the GPS for, but it will be on for all of it as I don't want to stop part way to turn it on. But, say, returning home I might decide to stop at the grocery store
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The problem with these kinds of automatic things is that I want to work flawlessly, or I'd rather do it all myself. Having to turn off automatic signalling lights that come on at the wrong moment is much more annoying than having to turn them on at the right times.
Voice reminders at the wrong time are also annoying and distracting.
Re: The point of turn signals (Score:2)
How about using informatiom from navigation software?
How difficult is to connect green wire from Waze to the white wire of the turning light?
At first I though they are going to patent that ine which would be also ridiculous
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It's funny how naive people will be just because the want the Jetsons future so badly. I saw a huge discrepancy with google maps just last week, it had me turn 3 streets too earlier to get to my destination, which is only accessible from one street, being a dead end with no side streets.
Oh the agony (Score:2)
the agony that is lifting their finger and moving it up or down by several inches.
Several inches? Is that what it takes on a Tesla? On all my cars, and my parents cars, going back nearly forty years of driving, the turn signal only takes (or took) a half and inch or so – up or down – to activate.
OTOH, getting drivers – Tesla or otherwise – to put down their phone or coffee to signal a turn probably is asking a lot.
In other news I predict a fresh rash of accidents as people pull out in front of a Tesla that has its turn signal on.
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Think roundabouts (or whatever you call them in whichever country you reside). You are required to indicate according to the direction in which you intend to leave the roundabout (or not at all if you're going straight ahead). This could be literally the reverse of the direction you turn upon entering the roundabout, which would be a major source of confusion for other drivers trying to figure out whether or not they could safely enter the roundabout or not.
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Why? (Score:2)
The way that Tesla envisions it working is that the car detects the driver's intent to change lanes or make a turn by using the Autopilot hardware at its disposal, it then works to sense if there are other vehicles nearby and if it detects them, it puts the signal on for the driver.
Except the law requires you to signal when turning even if no other cars are nearby in many states. Similarly for lane changes. This needs to be done ahead of time, say 100 feet for example. So it would have to be fairly floolproof or it could wind up backfiring if it failed and tickets were issued or an accident happened. Sometimes when a company files patents like this it is simply and attempt to create a wall of IP such that others find it difficult to compete or sometimes it's simply to pad a portf
GPS? (Score:1)
Presumably if the car knows where my destination is and the route I intend to take, it can use the turn signals appropriately without my input - no sophisticated body-language-reading AI required.
Actions hard to interpret (Score:2)
Decent drivers give a fairly early indication of a turn with small movements of the steering wheel (invisible from outside the car), but plenty of not-so-good drivers will turn the steering wheel left before starting the intended right turn. And you wait till it's clear you have turned to turn on the turn signal that's maybe avoiding a ticket with no improvement in safety. Unless this is really meant for slow city traffic and pedestrians in which case...ok...maybe.
A better idea would be... (Score:1)
Have autopilot execute the turn, but only after the turn signal has been activated (by the driver) an appropriate amount of time.
That is, make it so that the cars make turns that have been properly signalled.
It reduces driver workload and enforces safe driving habits.
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That is a feature that Autopilot already has [tesla.com].
seems unsafe! (Score:2)
seems unsafe!
Hm (Score:2)
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I've got a better idea (Score:3)
How about a patent to automatically turn OFF the turn signal that has been left on for the past 5 miles...and the car is still in the same lane? You know the type of driver I'm talking about. The one in the left lane, 10 MPH below the speed limit, driving the late 90s or early 00s Cadillac. Yeah...the one with the tuft of blue hair just barely above the dashboard. On the way to the bingo or shuffle board tournament.
Yes, the dreaded Snow Bird. The only thing worse than no signal is the perpetual signal. You have no idea what their true intention is. All you know is that you need to get the heck away from them. NOW.
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Seems silly, but... (Score:2)
While this seems a little silly on the surface,
I've noticed since moving to LA that almost nobody uses their turning signals here. It's gotten much worse over the past 7 years.
I'll take any additional help that the car can give these idiots, but I'm concerned that common adoption of features like this will make people even less likely to signal in advance of doing something stupid.
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What you need is an Augmented Reality app that will superimpose turn signals on any cars it perceives as turning? Maybe some AI that will even watch for the drivers eyeing their blind spot before turning? Way more likely to work than hoping everyone in LA starts driving a Tesla.
Patent ? - but free for all (Score:1)
Not so impressive, BUT .... (Score:2)
I think I'd like a feature like this if it at least FORCES the signals to come on as someone is starting to turn, in case they were otherwise going to skip using them at all.
As others said, half of the purpose of a turn signal is to indicate you'd like to turn ... hoping other drivers will cut you some slack and open up a space for you to begin doing it. Automatic signals will be totally useless for this.
So you wouldn't want to get rid of the signal lever here, IMO. But you might want the automatic functi
Prior Art? (Score:2)
Some racing video games had this feature where when you changed lanes, the car would start to signal in that direction. There is a game on the Google Play store right now that does this.
Or is prior art negated because it is virtual and doesn't send the actual CANBUS command to trigger the turn signal?
P A T E N T S
-dk
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Some racing video games had this feature where when you changed lanes, the car would start to signal in that direction. There is a game on the Google Play store right now that does this.
Or is prior art negated because it is virtual and doesn't send the actual CANBUS command to trigger the turn signal?
It's only prior art if it covers every element of the claim. If the video game just did "player turns steering wheel -> turn on signal", then it would only be prior art if that's all that's in a claim in Tesla's patent application. I looked at the patent application very briefly, and Claim 1 requires four different data sources, two of which are used to determine if there's another vehicle nearby.
Recurring Trips (Score:2)
I'm sure they will use recurring trips / timing to calculate likely destination.
Home -> School
School -> Work
Work -> Shop | Work -> Home
[Shop -> Home]
Please! (Score:2)
Donate a license to use this tech to BMW users.
They need it bad!
Driver monitoring systems (Score:2)
Anyone who thinks Tesla cars are capable of self driving is drinking too much kool aid. The car can manage itself in some limited scenarios but even there it requires an attentive driver to hit the brakes or overrule the car if it does something dangerous. As such it should be a legal requirement that every semi-autonomous vehicles MUST enforce driver attenti
AGONY (Score:1)
signal automatically without the driver needing to go through the agony that is lifting their finger and moving it up or down by several inches
Oh! So THAT'S why no one ever signals. Didn't realize it was causing them such torment.
nice post (Score:1)
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If you drive a SAAB or older Jaguar, the wiring is such crap that it does not matter if you try to use the indicator light.