WWV Shortwave Time Broadcasts May Be Slashed In 2019 (qrz.com) 305
New submitter SteveSgt writes: A forum thread on QRZ.com indicates that the shortwave time broadcasts by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) from stations WWV (Colorado) and WWVH (Hawaii) may be slashed in budget year 2019. [One of the proposed reductions includes "$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii."] While the WWV broadcasts may seem like an anachronism to some Slashdotters, they remain a crucial component in many unexpected services, from over-the-air broadcasters and traffic signals, to medical devices, wall clocks, and wrist watches. The signals serve as standard beacons for radio propagation, and as a frequency reference for alignment of a broad range of communications equipment. It's easy to imagine that not even the NIST knows every service and device that could be impacted by this decision.
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
This, coincident with a $717B Defense Authorization?
We need to have a very serious conversation with the god who blessed America. Fucker's high on something.
Re: WTF? (Score:2, Insightful)
American politics is no longer about big government vs. small government. Both parties like big government and increase spending. The primary disagreement is what type of big government to support. The Democrats favor entitlement spending while Republicans favor defense spending.
We also have an obsession with worshiping the military and pretending they can do wrong. It's a form of excessive political correctness, with particularly strong support from Republicans. I assume it's partly an overreaction to the
Re: WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
Be of good cheer, the military-industrial state will soon collapse.
Meanwhile, we must do all in our power to oppose, resist, and subvert
its desperate aggrandizements. As a matter of course. As a matter of
honor.
-- Edward Abbey, _Down The River_
Re: WTF? (Score:5, Informative)
Eisenhower
Re: WTF? (Score:4, Insightful)
His warning, while true, was as it would be were Trump to declare that pathological narcissism is a threat to democracy. Eisenhower was the chief promoter of the military-industrial complex.
Re: WTF? (Score:3)
Re: WTF? (Score:2)
So he warned against technocrats. Nothing wrong with that.
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The military-industrial complex or the scientific-technological elite?
Re: WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
I assume it's partly an overreaction to the awful treatment of troops returning from Vietnam.
I assume it's because the US military learned a lesson from Vietnam, which was that they needed to control the narrative.
That is why reporters were "embedded" during the Gulf Wars, and also why the US military pays the NFL so much money every year for those very strange "salute to service" games which look an awful lot like Nuremberg rallies to those of us who live outside the US.
It's called propaganda and the US has the most effective propaganda machine the world has ever known.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean like the 'nazi salute' that everyone knows was actually an American thing?
It was called the Bellamy salute - which was adopted by the nazi's for being so effective. Of course, after this, the American version became that you put your hand over your heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
How quickly we forget...
Re: WTF? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's called propaganda and the US has the most effective propaganda machine the world has ever known.
That's quite a stretch. It's really nothing more than the DoD marketing campaign. I'll agree with you, in that the pendulum has swung from one extreme to the other, but I'm also just starting to see signs of a turn back toward the middle. Calling every veteran a hero, and all the "thank you for your service" stuff is a bit much for me, and I'm a veteran...one day a year is enough for me, thank you very much.
Re: (Score:3)
and also why the US military pays the NFL so much money every year for those very strange "salute to service" games which look an awful lot like Nuremberg rallies to those of us who live outside the US.
Right.
Remember when NFL games were just that. A quick SSB at the beginning and then "get ready for some football". Since 9/11 its turned into this masturbation of faux patriotism that the vast majority of fans could give two fucks about. They just want to see the game.
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"a strong work ethic brought from Western Europe"
FTFY
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We need to have a very serious conversation with the god who blessed America. Fucker's high on something.
I'm sure he has been smoking weed ever since he created the universe. I call it The Big Bong Theory.
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I'm sure he has been smoking weed ever since he created the universe. I call it The Big Bong Theory.
That could be a new Netflix show.
Cheech and Chong, along with the Trailer Park Boys, would play a comical version of Greek Gods, meddling with mortals and having a good time.
Re: (Score:3)
One of these (defense) is actually constitutional
You opened this can of worms, not me. :)
The constitution definitely clearly lays out a place for spending by the federal government for common defense, that certainly is not in dispute.
However, there was a big fear at the time about standing armies - so much so that we got the 2nd Amendment as part of the Bill of Rights. The idea was that we would try to provide for the common defense with militias of citizens, who would even provide their own weapons. In hindsight, this was a terrible idea. There were seve
Re: WTF? (Score:4, Insightful)
Where does the Constitution authorize the creation of an Air Force, a Space Force, or to maintain standing armies? It doesn't.
Even if we assume the Constitution implicitly allows such defense spending, it doesn't mean that it's good for the country. Why not reduce defense spending and cut taxes?
While entitlement spending is larger than defense, the difference is not even close to an order of magnitude. That's just a lie. And a person can simultaneously support reduce defense spending and reforming entitlements.
This is going to be a shocker, so you might want to sit down. There are laws other than just the ones in the constitution. There, I said it. When you wake up you might want to re-read this lest you get yourself into trouble.
When you finally calm down, I'll sucker punch you again. There are rules in society that are not explicitly written into law. I know. Shocker, right?
[/sarcasm]Some people's kids... sheesh!
Re: WTF? (Score:4, Informative)
It's also sad how badly misunderstand the US constitution.
The constitution is not law.
The constitution is a framework which all laws must conform. This is a significant difference.
Re: (Score:2)
You should go back and read the grandparent post:
While you're looking at the pimple of defense spending, you're ignoring the cancer of social security, medicare, Obamacare, corporate and farm welfare, and interest on the debt. Order of magnitude, bitch. One of these (defense) is actually constitutional - the rest are clearly not. And debt has a way of fucking over the very people you think should be helped.
That is why the parent post is talking about the constitution.
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And there you have it. 'True conservatives' quote law. True leftists make up law.
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Air Force is basically an application of the army/navy powers, despite its being its own branch, its the concept of an army and the navy using modern technology, obviously planes didnt exist in 1789. Air Force actually used to be part of the Army, The Navy also has planes.
Re: (Score:3)
"Why not reduce defense spending and cut taxes?"
Why not reduce Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, TANF, SNAP, the FBI, the CIA, the DoE, the VA, and a half dozen other Cabinet-level agencies, and reduce taxes?
Shut it all down.
And reduce taxes.
Or, perhaps, think. Reduce it all and reduce taxes. Where I work we reduced by 10-15% in 2009. And we prospered. Asking our government to manage with even a 5% reduction requires two things:
0 - Near total replacement of the current legislature.
1- Repeat above to make
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
The defense budget is a fraction the size of social services mostly which goes to fund deadbeats.
The big ticket entitlements are Social Security and Medicare, which supports those deadbeats known as Grandma and Grandpa and the deadbeat that is your cousin with Down Syndrome.
In general, the vast majority of those receiving government assistance are either: Elderly, disabled or children.
Such deadbeat parasites. Maybe we should just kill the lousy parasites and we can build a city where the great would not be constrained by the small...Rapture.
stop the foreign aliens coming in and abusing our welfare services.
The foreign aliens working their asses off in poultry processing factories in Arkansas? Or picking lettuce in California? Running small gardening/handyman/home fix-up services out of pick-up truck at Lowe's? Slaving away in restaurants and hotels and not getting paid fair wages because their employers threaten them?
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
The foreign aliens working their asses off in poultry processing factories in Arkansas? Or picking lettuce in California? Running small gardening/handyman/home fix-up services out of pick-up truck at Lowe's? Slaving away in restaurants and hotels and not getting paid fair wages because their employers threaten them?
Funny, it worked fine for decades before we had ~30 million of them.
But it's NOT a free market. (Score:4, Informative)
You like the "free market", right?
Hypocrite...
Unfortunately, it's NOT a free market. The low wages are subsidized by a host of benefit programs for housing, food, medical care, and what passes for education for the families of the underpaid "undocumented" workers; by effective waivers of minimum wage laws, workplace safety rules, working hour enforcement, auto insurance requirements, and so on.
Citizens and legal residents who WOULD be willing to do those jobs, even at the low pay, need not apply: The employers can't employ them on those terms, since they could later demand the remainder of the legal minimum pay and enforcement of working conditions. Better for the employer to pay cash and, if the worker were crazy enough to gripe, report him to la migra.
It's a government welfare program for large employers and corporations, not for the common man. We pay for it in taxes for direct programs. We pay for it in lowered wages and higher unemployment. We pay for it in astronomically higher health care costs. We pay for it in higher auto insurance rates. We pay for it in low quality education of our children in public schools or by paying private school tutition in addition to our school taxes. We pay for it in shoddy work that has to be redone.
And the next time you hire someone to install a new roof on your house, or put in a new driveway, you're going with the more expensive contractor who doesn't hire illegals, right?
Tried that. In our area we weren't able to find any. When the laws aren't enforced, in a highly competitive market like contracting the businesses are divided into two groups: Those who hire "undocumented" workers, and those who are out of business. So even the licensed, bonded, high-rep, high quality contractors use illegal immigrants. (We know of one exception - in Oregon. He hires only citizens and other legals. And he makes his living fixing up the botch jobs done by the shadier subset of contractors and the "out of a truck - can't find them when it falls apart" "contractors" from the hardware store parking lots.)
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The foreign aliens working their asses off in poultry processing factories in Arkansas? Or picking lettuce in California? Running small gardening/handyman/home fix-up services out of pick-up truck at Lowe's? Slaving away in restaurants and hotels and not getting paid fair wages because their employers threaten them?
You mean the people who are paid under-wage, and in turn because of that depresses the actual wage so people won't want to work those jobs? I mean how does the poor and let's be realistic, they are poor americans who'd do those jobs, how do they compete against someone when a company can import the labor for 1/2 the going rate. Or illegally pay under the table 1/4 the wage. They can't.
Even at that, those service jobs in restaurants and hotels were never meant to be a long-term job, but a stepping stone t
Re: (Score:2)
Factoid 1: You don't understand the difference between deficit and debt.
Factoid 2: You don't understand which branch of government is responsible for budgets.
Re:Irrelevant. Slashdot turned into Facebook? Nerd (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that we're bankrupting and sacrificing ourselves with illegal, immoral wars to prop up Nixon's petrodollar while allowing our social institutions and infrastructure to decay is very relevant to the discussion. The fact that this grotesque irresponsibility is the driver of capitalism's collapse and American social decay is very, very relevant. Personally, I consider these to be the most relevant aspects of the discussion.
I would be ashamed of myself were I one given more to reaction than reflection.
Not irrelevant at all (Score:3, Informative)
I couldn't disagree more. From the NIST budget request summary [nist.gov]:
This budget request is consistent with the administration’s priorities to redirect domestic discretionary resources to rebuild the military and make critical investments in the nation’s security, and keep the nation on a responsible fiscal path.
Funding for discretionary programs is being reduced to allocate more funding for the military and "national security", which I suspect refers largely to the President's idea of border security. That makes it fair game to discuss defense and border security when commenting on the proposed shutdown of the WWV stations.
While we can debate a reasonable level of defense spending, let's use NATO's 2% of GDP standard. US defense spending is around 3
Re: (Score:3)
They broadcast multiple signals used to calibrate other devices.
They are standards.
They require maintenance, traceability, and calibration.
Economy? (Score:2)
As far as time and frequency dissemination goes, GPS does a vastly better job, with better coverage in almost all cases.
Re: Economy? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Economy? (Score:4, Informative)
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That'd be as easy as hanging a cheap pre-paid Android phone on the wall...if Android supported NTP.
(Sadly, it does not.)
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That'd be as easy as hanging a cheap pre-paid Android phone on the wall...if Android supported NTP.
(Sadly, it does not.)
Are [stackoverflow.com] you sure [xda-developers.com] about that?
Re: (Score:3)
I have my own local stratum 1 NTP server, you ignorant, foolish clod. No need for the Internet.
Re: Economy? (Score:5, Interesting)
They used to be, back when clocks were powered from an AC wall socket. Their gears were synchronized with the AC motor, and the power company worked really really hard to make sure the long-term average AC cycle was exactly 60 Hz. If equipment problems caused the frequency to drop slightly below 60 Hz, they'd run at slightly above 60 Hz for long enough to get the clocks back on the correct time.
Then we switched to clocks running off batteries with built-in quartz timing mechanisms. In theory they're better, but in practice they're never calibrated well enough or their calibration drifts with age and temperature, making them less accurate than the old AC powered clocks. The best quartz watch I had lost a little less than a second a month. Then I got too greedy and killed the golden goose - tried adjusting the quartz timing mechanism myself. After that I could never get it below 2 seconds of drift per month. What I didn't realize until it was too late was that as the error gets smaller, you have to wait longer between each adjustment (weeks) to determine if you had improved it or overshot. With the 60 Hz power line method, only a single clock has to be calibrated to be super-accurate; and all the other clocks powered by AC synchronize off it.
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Just about all plug-in clocks that do not have a wall-wart, like the cheap LED bedside alarm clocks or the clock on your stove, still are timed from the utility. The chips that do this are wickedly inexpensive and *just work*.
My grandfather worked in rural electrification back in the day. He told me that they tracked variations in frequency during the day and intentionally caught up on any errors at night when load was (relatively) low, just to keep the clocks accurate.
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Just about all plug-in clocks that do not have a wall-wart, like the cheap LED bedside alarm clocks or the clock on your stove, still are timed from the utility. The chips that do this are wickedly inexpensive and *just work*.
Unless you live somewhere with frequent power outages... clock on my last stove would lose time in that scenario. That house burned up in a recent fire in lake county, though, so that stove is now gone :p
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making them less accurate than the old AC powered clocks.
Define your accuracy requirements. Quartz clocks have orders of magnitude better short term accuracy than anything grid synchronized. The grid has far greater accuracy over the long term.
The GP said millisecond accuracy, the fact is that wall synchronized clocks never achieved this. On a given day they could be all over the place. In fact their accuracy can often be out by many seconds before producers take action to get the frequency back in sync with the clock, and that is hardly surprising when you think
Most of those "self setting clocks" use WWVB... (Score:5, Informative)
on 60 kHz. The WWV/WWVH services being cut are on HF (2.5-25 MHz).
The loss of those frequencies will obsolete the older HF clocks, like the Heathkit GC-1000 "Most Accurate Clock" I have in my ham shack. As well as removing the other functions they provided besides time, such as precision frequency reference (zero beat a signal generator or receiver VFO against WWV's carrier, and you know it is exactly on frequency), and the various frequencies throughout the HF band provide useful propagation checks, as well.
Oh well, the $6M they save can pay off a lot of porn stars, or cover the security detail for a couple rounds of golf in Bedminster...
Re: (Score:2)
But why does it cost $6M?
It's just a few transmitters and some awesome clocks, very carefully intertwined.
I know that engineers aren't cheap and power isn't free, but $6M buys a lot of transmitter/clock/tower maintenance and electricity every year.
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I have wanted a POE NTP wall clock for a while, but that doesn't abrogate the utility of WWV. It is useful to have a terrestrial time reference in case things go to shit in orbit. It is good to have a variety of independent time references.
But, my clocks are wwvb, which someone else pointed out is apparently not impacted.
NTP (millisecond), PTP (microsecond) (Score:2)
NTP will give you accurate time sync across your network of about 1 millisecond. Ntpd on your ntp server ( will keep your local network time to within a few milliseconds of worldwide network time. Frequently your DNS server or router will also serve as your DNS server.
You can of course connect a single GPS receiver to your NTP server and thereby keep your whole network within a millisecond or so of perfect time using just one GPS server.
Precision Time Protocol (PTP) provides much greater precision.
NTP is f
Re: (Score:2)
GPS time is currently off UTC by (iirc) about 15 seconds. Granted, it's a fixed offset that could be easily fixed (simply do a -15 seconds) but that's not part of GPS yet. Until GPS time can't be a replacement for any other UTC time signal.
Re: (Score:2)
This sounds very counter-intuitive. Not to say that you are wrong although. Who knows with the fancy ntpd algorithm? But then again, it should help WWV just as well as a WiFi connected device. Are you talking about a dedicated WiFi connection just for time syncing?
Anyway, please provide some links if you have time. That might help me educate myself a bit.
Thanks in advance,
Re: Economy? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't have any good links, but it's not too complicated...
The radio beacon travels at (roughly) the speed of light. That's about 300 million meters per second, so there's a 1ms delay after the signal gets to be 300 km away.
From a technical perspective, all communications (including Internet-based systems) are bound by that same speed, and trying to break that cosmic limit has proven to be extremely difficult, so engineers have done what engineers do best: they cheat.
The "fancy" algorithm is really pretty simple, conceptually: Instead of just accepting a time beacon, the NTP client measures how long it takes to ask for a time, and assumes that the time it receives was accurate halfway through the round-trip time. For example, if it takes 14ms to get a message saying it's exactly noon, that message was probably received very close to 7 ms after noon, so NTPd will set the local clock accordingly. It's not perfect, because the round-trip time might not be symmetrical, but it's close enough for most practical purposes. Using WiFi might add a bit of delay, but as long as the delay is symmetric, it won't be a problem.
The key for NTP is that it's a client-server protocol, so the client knows approximately how long the message was in transit. A one-way radio beacon like WWV doesn't have that, but that also means WWV doesn't need to receive transmissions from clients to function.
GPS is even fancier. A GPS satellite transmits not just a time beacon, but also a message with the satellite's location when the beacon was sent. Once a receiver has learned the locations and delays for at least four satellites, it can start to determine its own location. First, it will compare the satellites' locations and delays relative to other satellites to figure out where the receiver could possibly be on Earth. Then it can use that location to determine the exact delay for each satellite's signal, which is then used (just like in NTP) to compute the actual time.
GPS is superior to both NTP and WWV, because it is still a one-way communication system, but also isn't subject to any network traffic or assumptions about symmetry. With no prior knowledge, a GPS receiver can accurately compute both its location and time.
Re: (Score:2)
I still don't see how a ntpd server syncing over WiFi could be more precise than a stratum 0 server syncing with WWV. All you need to do is tell the stratum 0 server how far it is from the tower. Pretty damn accurate IMHO.
From OP:
It's only accurate to a millisecond within a 300km radius of the transmitter. NTP over WiFi is capable of much higher accuracy. GPS much more than that.
I really do not see how your ntpd server is going to keep "better than a millisecond" precision over WiFi and I ran a few use cases ;-)
Re: (Score:2)
When your justification is that all you need to do is something extra that isn't currently done then you often can achieve the results you want. That requires a few things though, such as knowledge of your location and the location of the source.
I also don't understand why you're holding up wifi as some weird randomness. WiFi is incredibly short range and the delay unless your cheap chinese router is feeding packets through a random number generator is quite consistent in two directions. It will be far less
Re: (Score:2)
WWF broadcasts on HF. Propagation delays are variable, and can easily result in multiple ms of variability within the continental US. It's not just "telling the server how far it is from the tower."
It's not difficult to stay sync'd to a local server within a ms using ntp over WiFi, as long as the device has a good local clock. Problem is, most devices use crystals which are
Re:Economy? (Score:5, Insightful)
This may surprise you, but GPS in-building penetration is zero. Whereas the longwave signals from WWV keep a clock I have in my basement synchronized. So yeah, GPS does a vastly better job at providing location, because that's what it's for, and pretty much is shit for providing cheap time sync. ... *a day*.
Oh, and as of the 2012 budget, GPS operating costs were $2M
The real issue here is that this is something that primarily provides a useful service for the little guy and doesn't have armies of lobbyists shilling it, so even if it cost $1.50/yr, let's cut it, because it's SOCIALISM.
Re: (Score:2)
The first GPS receiver I ever had was a Garmin Nuvi. It took a long time for it to cold start in my living room when I first got it, but it *did* work.
My current cell phone, an S7, gets GPS coverage inside most buildings with windows, with large positional errors -- but good enough for (most) time stuff. It does this far better than the OG Motorola Droid did, but even that would find a fix on at least one bird indoors.
The $6 clone GPS receiver I have on my RPi works a treat indoors, too: All kinds of cha
Re: Economy? (Score:3)
Newer cell phones sniff wi-fi beacons & use crowdsourced services that correlate wifi ssids & relative signal strength to locations.
Actual GPS works poorly, or not at all, indoors (besides LITERALLY next to a window), and accuracy is poor because what little signal you get has so much multipath interference.
Re: (Score:2)
, because the it's not true
How not true is it? I'm willing to bet your GPS signal isn't actually entering through the building but rather those potrusions in its side.
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(pause)
I just ran an Android "GPS Status" app on my phone. I went into a half bath in the middle of my house (no exterior wall), closed the door, and saw I had a fix on 15 GPS satellites. Then I went out on the deck, and saw the exact same. The signal levels were a bit higher, but same number of satellite fixes.
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"This may surprise you, but GPS in-building penetration is zero." Only the claim is suprising, because the it's not true in fact as anyone with a cell phone can tell you. But, your mom's basement may be an edge case.
Not exactly an edge case. I live in an apartment building, as do many people who live in large cities, and I can't get a GPS lock from inside my apartment. It might work fine in a house of wood, drywall, and shingles, but it isn't getting through the concrete in my building.
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I have to question a cost of $6.3 MM/year.
Gimme your PayPal and I'll transfer you $2. That will cover your personal contribution to this endeavor for the next century, plus change.
Re: (Score:2)
Not sure what you consider "lab-grade time standards", but 10 nanosecond accuracy is readily obtained by a $25 GPS receiver with PPS output. What WWV receiver do you use which is cheaper and better?
If it has to go... (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
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Problem is, you can't legally broadcast on any of the WWV frequencies. And rightly so
Agree. Broadcasting on frequencies 2.5Mh, 5Mh, 10Mh, etc would bring the wrath of the FCC down on you. They're not for general public use.
HOWEVER: if those frequencies are suddenly unused by the government, I wouldn't mind having a small transmitter in the house on those freqs that would feed time to all of the radio clocks I currently have. A raspberry Pi, a GPS receiver module, and a pirate radio broadcasting signal sounds just about right. I'm not trying to reach the other side of the world or the
Re: If it has to go... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
My RPi is connected to an atomic clock. It's a Stratum-1 NTP server. It keeps excellent time.
Parts: RPi Zero + cheap-shit direct-from-China Ebay 3.3v GPS receiver board + decent active GPS antenna + gpsd + ntpd + some wire.
The hardest part is that Raspbian ships with a neutered ntpd and an ancient gpsd, both of which need upgraded. Other than that it's really a very simple project.
Make no mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
The NIST is under the Secretary of Commerce, Wilbur Ross, who is a cryptkeeper who only stays alive through daily applications of graft and corruption. Here's an article about just how corrupt this ancient swamp thing really is.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/d... [forbes.com]
The $6,3 million saved will pay for a lot of KFC Gravy Bowls on Air Force One. Plus, Colorado and Hawaii voted for Hillary, so fuck them libs, amirite? Trump is just that kind of petty degenerate..
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I think that is offensive to cryptkeepers everywhere.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Wrong. Not with a department within a department. Do you believe Congress approved the spending for Trump's Space Force?
You really think every time Wilbur Ross decides to take a private plane instead of a commercial airliner that Congress has to approve that?
Plus, if you go to the NIST's own website, this is what they say on the matter:
Re:Make no mistake (Score:4, Insightful)
>"The $6,3 million saved will pay for a lot of KFC Gravy Bowls on Air Force One. Plus, Colorado and Hawaii voted for Hillary, so fuck them libs, amirite? Trump is just that kind of petty degenerate.."
I don't want to see the WWV dismantled. I have lots of equipment that use it both at home and work. But I really would like someone to explain to me how it can possibly cost 6.3 million dollars a year for such an incredibly simple function/technology. THAT should be the uptake here- not that we don't need or shouldn't have the service, but why does it need cost so much?
Re: (Score:2)
The explanation is as simple as reading TFS:
"$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii."
WWV is only one small part of the $6.3 million. The rest is probably metrology standards of various kinds, which is an even more frightening loss than WWV. In theory, WWV could even
Re:Make no mistake (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not that simple.
First it needs an accurate source of time. These days that could be GPS, but it needs to keep working when GPS is not available so you need an atomic clock at each site.
Then you need some equipment to generate the signal. Yeah, a Raspberry Pi could do it, but have you certified that Python script to be correct and to produce a signal that is synchronized within nanoseconds of the atomic clock?
Finally you need a high power transmitter to broadcast it. Actually you need five because it broadcasts on five different frequencies.
Oh, and you need to keep monitoring it, not just at the transmitter but around the country to ensure propagation and accuracy. Conditions change, if you are relying on it for anything important you have to keep checking.
$6.3m actually sounds quite reasonable for such a system.
WWV[H][B[ (Score:5, Insightful)
NIST is taking a gigantic budget hit. WWV/etc is just one victim. We are headed back to the scientific dark ages...
From what I've read, there was no mention of WWV-B, the VLF broadcast that such gadgets as people's clocks depend on. Is that on the chopping block too? (probably. grr)
if that happens (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
i have two radio controlled clocks i will have to throw out, both set their time by WWVB at 60_KHz
Or you could RTFS and see no mention of WWVB.
GPS *AND* Internet fail (could happen)- important? (Score:2)
Some nation attacks US in the crypto battlefield: sats and .ip driven life stop.
With my battery driven sw I could at least know the time, important? Importand during that kind of crisis?
I remember a time when wwv had a strong signal, world wide - is it just me or have they really reduced powered? Last I checked while in Costa Rica 2.5 wasn't there 5 was weak 10 was weak and 15 didn't exist.
There's one foolproof way to find out (Score:2)
It's easy to imagine that not even the NIST knows every service and device that could be impacted by this decision.
It's easy to imagine that we'll find out in very short order what was impacted, when they turn off the service; and that the resulting lawsuits will end up costing them well over the amount they hoped to save.
Ready, fire, aim!
Speak plainly (Score:2)
It's easy to imagine that not even the NIST knows every service and device that could be impacted by this decision.
There's no fucking way the NIST knows half the shit that could be impacted by this decision. [FIFY]
Clocks do not set to WWV (Score:2)
WWV and WWVH are different from WWVB. WWV and WWVH are voice, WWVB is what the clocks are automatically set to. Still cancelling the voice service seems a little ridiculous to save 0000.1% of the federal budget, maybe what they should do is overlay the time signal on news and more informational broadcasts, i know there is already some informational broadcasting but it certainly could be expanded to justify the expense, however.
Re: (Score:2)
The budget proposal says:
...including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii
So perhaps all broadcast operations in Colorado will be shut down.
According to this page, WWVB is also in Colorado:
[ https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-... [nist.gov] ]
NIST radio station WWVB is located on the same site as NIST HF radio station WWV near Fort Collins, Colorado.
So it looks to me like WWVB could also be on the chopping block.
Not as relied on as you think (Score:2)
There are 2 services
WWV + WWVH - which the NIST cut from their own budget. This is mostly the classic "At the tone, the time will be XXX", but includes some electromagnetic propagation reports etc. There are some tones with phase shift data
WWVB - The BINARY format version, which is NOT on the chopping block, and IS widely used!!
WWVB affected? (Score:2)
WWV/WWVH are outdated and were replaced by WWVB... so nothing of value seems lost.
#MAGA (Score:2)
It's all part of the process...
Re:Are there any ham radio dudes that are norma (Score:4, Funny)
I don't recall ever meeting a ham named Norma, but there are enough amateur radio operators that there probably is one. Or several.
Re: (Score:2)
I understand that ham radio buffs tend to be older-bearded-ex-military-janes-reading-model-railroading-tabletop-wargaming-cessna owning sort of guys...but did you have to engage in casual homophobia?
After all, hams complain about their declining numbers, do you think that contributing to the stereotype of hams being right-wing bigoted jerks is going to encourage new blood....well except amongst the younger versions of guys like you of course.
Not even taking into account that the earliest users of the intern
Re: (Score:2)
Ham radio is a fairly common interest amongst older transfolk. And Cessna's amongst those with more money. And of course model railroading and trains in general. Linux and anime amongst younger ones. The ones who are transitioning young will probably have more tradtionally-gendered interests.
I used to call a bunch of upper-class crossdressers in a support group I was in "The Cessna's and Sailboats crowd"
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, sure. And let's replace the National Weather Service with The Weather Channel because hey, it's self-funding. And we could replace libraries with book stores too. And eventually you'll miss the point of why taxpayer-funded projects exist at all.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, sure. And let's replace the National Weather Service with The Weather Channel because hey, it's self-funding. And we could replace libraries with book stores too. And eventually you'll miss the point of why taxpayer-funded projects exist at all.
Why do they exist at all ? Looking at California they exist so politicians can rob the public blind and do everything they can to encourage people to leave the state.
The weather service is something that could easily self fund, there's actually a large number of private services that sell their product on the basis of doing a better job.
Between Franklin and Carnegie libraries were privately funded, and just out of curiosity when was the last time you used one ?
Re: (Score:2)
Because it turns out having privately funded road, health, education, and defense systems are bad for various reasons. This extends out to other areas, like some branches of science.
Re: (Score:2)
Because it turns out having privately funded road, health, education, and defense systems are bad for various reasons. This extends out to other areas, like some branches of science.
Seems public funding isn't that great either. Matter of fact private schools are so much better that parents are willing to pay absurd amounts of money to send their kids to them. Toll roads work pretty well, and most of the problems with the medical system stem from the government limiting the supply of doctors.
Re: (Score:2)
private schools are so much better that parents are willing to pay absurd amounts of money to send their kids to them
If public schools had access to the same absurd amount of money, they would be better too.
Re: (Score:2)
Only if it's mismanaged. Most western countries don't have the same problems as the US with their public health and education systems. You'd really be in favor of having all roads be toll roads? Including the one your house is on?
Re:Charge for the service ? (Score:4, Insightful)
If it's so useful, it should be able to be self funding.
Like police and the military. They are useful, so maybe they should be self-funding too.
You really do not want to go there.
Re: Charge for the service ? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If it's so useful, it should be able to be self funding.
Like police and the military. They are useful, so maybe they should be self-funding too.
You really do not want to go there.
Why wouldn't you want them to be self funding ? Police/military/Fire/emergency services could all be funded by insurance policies.
Re: (Score:2)
Mandatory insurance? Or when people call in to 911 for police or fire insurance, do they need to have their credit card ready?
If the former, well, we already have that, it's called 'taxes.' If the latter, well, it already works that way in quite a few places in America, and it's terrible.
Re: (Score:2)
The idea that "useful" things automatically -- or even can -- make money doesn't strike me as inherently true. And if it is we should start with grade schools and family households.
Grade Schools often are run for profit and much more efficiently than public schools. Family households used to be strictly for profit operations prior to the modern era. Children were your retirement policy.
Re: (Score:2)
Internet time depends on infrastructure that can fail in a variety of ways that radio isn't vulnerable to. It's very useful, but has its limitations. GPS isn't vulnerable in the way internet-based infrastructure is. However, it's difficult to receive a GPS signal in many places that shortwave radio can still be received. It isn't redundant infrastructure.
Redundant infrastructure is exactly what you have described. It's a pain in the rear to get WWV devices to work in general and you will need an antenna where either can't be received.
Re: (Score:2)
Any government service that isn't privatized or going to contractors will be cut in the near future.
If you're well connected to the political organs of our neo-consevative (and neo-liberal) empire, you can expect a fat paycheck from John Q. Taxpayer.
Anyone against globalization. Against austerity. Or against the currently administration has been clearly identified as an enemy of the state. Your execution papers are in the mail.
Right - if the NIST offered to privatize this, and have a company transmit the signal, with the same budget (or maybe higher, for that private sector profit incentive) then the Republicans would be fine with it. And the CEO of the company would of course kick back part of his salary from the venture to the party, just to show his appreciation. That's how it works with prisons.
Re: (Score:2)
Wrist watches on the hand have been on the downward trend in favor of cell phones for a while.
If history is any indicator, we'll be moving back to wristwatches from pocket watches soon enough. A GPS activation once a day wouldn't be a horrible compromise, but requires a lot more complicated reception.
Re: My Casio Wave Ceptor 4756 (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I just did.