Man Sues Nation For Allegedly Seizing France.com, a Domain He Has Owned For Over 20 Years (arstechnica.com) 214
A French-born American has now sued his home country because, he claims, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has illegally seized a domain that he's owned since 1994: France.com. From a report: In the mid-1990s, Jean-Noel Frydman bought France.com from Web.com and set up a website to serve as a "digital kiosk" for Francophiles and Francophones in the United States. For over 20 years, Frydman built up a business (also known as France.com), often collaborating with numerous official French agencies, including the Consulate General in Los Angeles and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. However, sometime around 2015, that very same ministry initiated a lawsuit in France in an attempt to wrest control of the France.com domain away from Frydman.
Web.com locked the domain, and Frydman even roped in the Berkman Klein Center at Harvard Law School to intervene on his behalf. By September 2017, the Paris Court of Appeals ruled that France.com was violating French trademark law. Armed with this ruling, lawyers representing the French state wrote to Web.com demanding that the domain be handed over. Finally, on March 12, 2018, Web.com abruptly transferred ownership of the domain to the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The company did so without any formal notification to Frydman and no compensation. "I'm probably [one of Web.com's] oldest customers," Frydman told ArsTechnica. "I've been with them for 24 years... There's never been any cases against France.com, and they just did that without any notice. I've never been treated like that by any company anywhere in the world. If it happened to me, it can happen to anyone."
Web.com locked the domain, and Frydman even roped in the Berkman Klein Center at Harvard Law School to intervene on his behalf. By September 2017, the Paris Court of Appeals ruled that France.com was violating French trademark law. Armed with this ruling, lawyers representing the French state wrote to Web.com demanding that the domain be handed over. Finally, on March 12, 2018, Web.com abruptly transferred ownership of the domain to the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The company did so without any formal notification to Frydman and no compensation. "I'm probably [one of Web.com's] oldest customers," Frydman told ArsTechnica. "I've been with them for 24 years... There's never been any cases against France.com, and they just did that without any notice. I've never been treated like that by any company anywhere in the world. If it happened to me, it can happen to anyone."
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
The world was always about who got more muscle.
Between a private citizen and a government, the government usually wins.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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In that case you BECOME the government.
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Only if you WANT to become the government. I guess if you are rich enough you may like the influence but not the hassle and a decent puppet works better than potentially your head under a guillotine (it's France we're talking about ;) ).
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I didn't say you OFFICIALLY become the government.
So the rephrased sentence is:
"Between a private citizen and a government, the government (or whoever's behind it) usually wins."
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You're referring to the golden rule, and it has been a thing since long before the concepts of "private" and "government" ever existed.
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Always remember the immortal words of Sir Humphrey, “Prime Minister, the Dept of Foreign affairs is not there to do things, they are there to explain why things cant be done”
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.gov TLD (Score:4, Insightful)
Is France going after every TLD now?
How about france.bargains?
france.coupons, anyone?
Perhaps france.mom should be surrendered...
france.singles certainly serves some governmental function
Or france.tattoo, needed by the Ministry of Tattoos to license and sell tattoo services.
The French government knew that they would lose the case in any court other than their own, so they put pressure on someone with no rights to the TLD to seize the property of its rightful owner.
Re:.gov TLD (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:.gov TLD (Score:5, Insightful)
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You know, France is free to enforce its laws on the Minitel network.
Re:.gov TLD (Score:5, Insightful)
web.com is a Florida company. It should not be surrendering domain names without a proper order from a U.S. court.
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Well, one suspects that they will be seeing a lawsuit - *in* US court(s) - soon, and I forsee damages not-in-their-favor...
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Unfortunately the French happen to spell France similar to the English.
If not Jean-Noël could still own the site.
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The US claims to own "...of America" They grandfathered in a few old businesses like Bank of America, but you can't name a business of America these days.
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You know, this is PRECISELY why government TLDs exist. The .com TLD stands for commercial.
Is France going after every TLD now?
How about france.bargains?
france.coupons, anyone?
Perhaps france.mom should be surrendered...
france.singles certainly serves some governmental function
Or france.tattoo, needed by the Ministry of Tattoos to license and sell tattoo services.
The French government knew that they would lose the case in any court other than their own, so they put pressure on someone with no rights to the TLD to seize the property of its rightful owner.
.gov TLD is for United States government agencies. .fr TLD though to organize as they see fit.
France has the
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Not mutually exclusive, UK uses both like ministry.gov.uk
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It is exclusive. The T in TLD stands for Top. The UK's TLD is .uk just like .fr is for France and .ca is for Canada. .gov.
You will never see a government organization outside the US use
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This is why I want to see the abolishment of all TLDs except the country TLDs. No more .com, .org, .gov, etc. You want a virtual presence in a country? Follow that country's rules to get your name there. If there's a conflict between two parties over a domain name settle it in the courts of whichever country owns the ccTLD.
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France.com tried to register its name as a trademark in France in 2015. France itself recieved that trademark by declaring prior use on the word France. From that point onward France.com was in violation of the trademark it tried to get and France sued them for it. They sued in France since France.com was in violation of a French/European trademark.
Moral of the story: don't try to trademark country names, it wont end well for you. Alternatively: Check if you have a valid claim to your trademark before regis
We shall litigate on-and-on to the end. (Score:4, Funny)
We shall sue them in France, we shall litigate on the seas and oceans, we shall litigate with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our domain name, whatever the cost may be. We shall litigate on the beaches, we shall litigate on the landing grounds, we shall litigate in the fields and in the streets, we shall litigate in the hills; we shall never surrender,
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Sure you can, you just can't trademark the name to prevent others from doing so. It's like when Warner Brothers tried to stop others from using the name "Casablanca". They got egg on their face. If the poster you replied to is correct, this asshat tried to trademark the name "France" in France, which you have to admit is pretty stupid. If so, it may be the only reason they even bothered to notice him.
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The .com TLD stands for commercial.
What is this 1992? .com stands for common. Okay it doesn't really but the point is that if you don't own the .com domain you probably aren't worth even being around at this day and age. Like the ISPs and network providers who have .com instead of .net.
By the way speaking of commercial, France.com doesn't direct to the government site, but rather a more tourist information oriented site. That is quite consistent with the ways many other governments use their domains. Australia.com gives you holidays in Austr
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What about expanding TLDs to...
France.fries
France.maids
France.kiss
France.tickler
Geographic Indication ? (Score:2)
Or it might actually be a case of "Geographic Indication" ?
The European continent has a complex system of laws defining which names of places can be used by commercial entities.
France is about the oldest country with such law systems (the AOC - Appellation d'origine controlée).
You can't arbitrarily call you wine "Champagne" if it's not actually produced in the Fench region of Champagne.
(Which by it self gave rise to tons of other problems as, e.g.: there's a region of Switzerland which also happens t
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More details (since I immediately thought of PDO) at Wikipedia on designated origin, etc. in the EU:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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.gov? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:.gov? (Score:5, Informative)
Isn't this why there are top level .gov sites?
No. .gov is reserved for US Government agencies only. They are not available to other countries. [wikipedia.org]
Most other countries use a second-level domain against their country level domain for Government specific sites, like Canada's .gc.ca domain.
Yaz
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Isn't this why there are top level .gov sites?
No. .gov is reserved for US Government agencies only. They are not available to other countries. [wikipedia.org]
Most other countries use a second-level domain against their country level domain for Government specific sites, like Canada's .gc.ca domain.
Yaz
No most countries do not do that. Only a small handful of countries ever had two level domains, and most of them are slowly getting rid of them now.
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.co.uk being one of them?
Re:.gov? (Score:5, Informative)
List of international .gov two-level domain equivalents [wikipedia.org]
That's more than a handful.
Yaz
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List of international .gov two-level domain equivalents [wikipedia.org]
That's more than a handful.
Yaz
I have big hands :D
Still it definitely isn't most.
Re:.gov? (Score:4, Insightful)
There are 58 countries on the list, and around 200 countries in the world. >25% is not "a small handful", and neither is 58.
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But 58 is a small handful for those native to the Alkergoifa star system.
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Last I checked, Alkergoifa didn't have its own top level domain so they can just butt right out of this. :)
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There are 58 countries on the list, and around 200 countries in the world. >25% is not "a small handful", and neither is 58.
But it isn't "most" either...
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If they choose not to, that's on them, not everyone else. The fact remains, France has a TLD that is entirely under it's control. If they want an official government domain, that's a good place to put it.
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like Canada's .gc.ca domain.
Missed the obvious opportunity to point to France's gouv.fr domain. :-)
Re:.gov? (Score:4, Informative)
Not to make too fine a point, but .gov is for US government website. All other countries get a TLD (.fr for France) which they are (AFAIK) free to administer as they please. So, France could have reserved france.fr, france.gov.fr, or maybe even just http://fr/ [fr] (not sure of the specs here)
In any case, although there might be issues with naming your company after a foreign country, one would expect a bit more due process here.
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So, France could have reserved france.fr, france.gov.fr, or maybe
*In best disgusted Parisian accent*
Tu veux dire france.gouv.fr, avec un 'u'.
Yankee ignorant, va!
Re:.gov? (Score:5, Informative)
All other countries get a TLD (.fr for France) which they are (AFAIK) free to administer as they please.
There's something you've misunderstood.... .fr don't "Belong" to the country --- Yes, the local government will be _consulted_ in the process of appointing a ccTLD manager (to allow the government to offer any objections it might have), but the ccTLDs are not owned by, run by, or controlled by any "government"; the ccTLDs get delegated to a corporation or other entity that applies to have the ccTLD delegated and thus become the ccTLD manager, and the requirements to have the ccTLD delegated include that the operation must be "In the public interest" for the benefit of the community represented by the ccTLD.
TLDs such as
There's an application / delegation process, and ultimately there's a decision made by the internet community in regards to appointing ccTLD managers, and it's the ccTLD manager that decides the registration policies.
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So, France could have reserved france.fr, france.gov.fr, or
If they were going to reserve anything they would have reserved it under {something}.gouv.fr .... which they already do.
But interestingly enough I can find few if any governments that host tourist information under their .gov.tld domains. You will find info on travelling to Australia at Australia.com and not australia.gov.au for example.
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Isn't this why there are top level .gov sites?
France.com is not running a government site. Just because the government owns it doesn't mean it isn't being used for commercial purposes.
Feel like visiting Australia? You're better off going to http://www.australia.com/ [australia.com] than you are http://www.australia.gov.au/ [australia.gov.au]
Likewise the French government domains are hosted under {purpose}.gouv.fr
Merit in the case ? (GIs) (Score:2)
Or it might be attempt to transfer the kind of considerations that already happen between domain-squatters and trademarks.
But adapted to Geographic Indication instead of brand-names (which is really *serious business* in France. They were the first country to have official law in place for GI with their AOC - "Appellation d'origin protégée")
In other way, just as some random schmuck shouldn't be allowed to register "coca-cola.com" (it's a protected trademark) even if it's a fan page and forum t
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They used to do an Independence Day thing with US flags all over the place, which annoyed the US Consulate just down the road no end.
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Well it does NOW.
Just be glad... (Score:5, Funny)
Eminent domain? (Score:4, Interesting)
Is this not a form of eminent domain, but at TLD level? Also, France is very big on pushing for control over regions as trademarks. For example, unless you are in the region of Champagne you can't user that as a label for your sparkling wine.
In many ways the guy owning the domain should have probably seen it coming and had a backup domain name? Do I think the people who decided to force control, instead of providing warning and discourse, aren't probably arrogant a holes? I do, but as the little guy what can your really do except make noise and just marketing a new domain. Hopefully he wins his case, but I am not too optimistic.
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In many ways the guy owning the domain should have probably seen it coming and had a backup domain name?
The guy owning the domain should have seen it coming and placed a $300/Year REGISTRY LOCK [verisign.com] on the domain so that not even the domain registrar would be able to make changes to it without Verisign calling up the registrant and receiving permission to temporarily unlock the domain for changes.
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No, the EU commission does not get to decide this, in the real world rather than the one the Daily Mail inhabits. The British government requested it, based on a request from producers. In other news, banana quality regulations were requested by... the UK, as they favoured high quality product from Commonwealth nations.
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Someone could have fun with this.
What if I attempted to make and sell cheese, made in Stilton?
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FranceEstMerde.com (Score:2)
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LaFranceEstMerdique.com
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Speaking from personal experience of how to upset them, may I recommend FrenchCunts.com
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The French don't hesitate to reduce their language to the bare bones when convenient. FranceMerde is all that's needed.
There's a procedure for seizing domain names (Score:5, Informative)
(Also, I seriously doubt the French government holds a legitimate claim to the International trademark on "France". If that were possible, then China could register "China" as a trademark, and force all websites to cease using the word "China" in ways the Chinese government didn't like.)
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The ICANN process is laborious and expensive.... If the registration violates the cybersquatting act in the US, then it can actually be more efficient sometimes to sue in federal court under the cybersquatting act.
And get the judge to sign an order directing the registrar, registry-operator, ICANN, Etc, to transfer ownership of the domain to the plaintiff
Re: There's a procedure for seizing domain names (Score:2, Funny)
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Isn't there a name for this ... (Score:2)
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The French call it the inquisitorial system.
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Tyranny.
The French call it the inquisitorial system.
No no no, that's the Spanish!
Re: Isn't there a name for this ... (Score:2)
NO ONE expects the French Inquisition!
If France is trademarked (Score:2)
shouldn't the be going after all domains that have France in them and commercial services/products that use the word France?
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And all maps, too!
He will never get the domain name back (Score:4, Insightful)
What could he do, place a lien of the French embassy in Washington? It's extra-territorial so US law does not apply.
He's reduced to filing what is a effectively a nuance suit that will be settled for a pittance because he has no leverage.
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What could he do
Sue the registra for handing over the domain without due process and without following the dispute resolution setout in ICANN's rules.
Re:He will never get the domain name back (Score:4, Informative)
"What could he do, place a lien of the French embassy in Washington? It's extra-territorial so US law does not apply."
It's not simple, but can be done...
http://harvardpolitics.com/wor... [harvardpolitics.com]
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Why o why didn't he sue web.com?
Lessons here (Score:2)
1. Do not try to grab major-name domains at the "country/state" level. Govs hate when you try and muscle in on "their" crap.
2. Suck it up, rename your page something like France-Expats.com or France-info.com and save yourself thousands of $$ -- and years of pointless court delays.
3. Yes it sucks. But you're never getting it back. Be realistic and move on.
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3. Yes it sucks. But you're never getting it back. Be realistic and move on.
He might never get the domain back. But he could at least some hefty damages compensations back from web.com. And web.com are under the reach of US courts. Go for it!
Frogs.com (Score:2)
Domain theft no less (Score:2, Interesting)
France can have france.fr or similar.
France.com belong to the guy who registrered it first and are using it properly.
Oh, and the name of a nation is not a registered trademark.
Surrendered? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:4, Insightful)
Wayback Machine confirms the site was pretty much a tourism / travel agency site for France. https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
In what universe does French law apply to a domain hosted and managed in the US by a US company?
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently this one.
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that the law applies, it's that web.com are wimpy piles of shit who rolled over for a tyrannical government.
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Maybe there is more going on here than we assume. If the French court's ruling had been ignored it would have just added more pressure to take control of the domain name system off an American private company.
Or maybe Web.com just didn't want to get sued by the French government.
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: business's do it all the time (Score:5, Insightful)
The registrar handed the domain over.
The registrar did not own the domain. The registrar did not "hand the domain over." The registrar stole a domain they were paid to maintain a registry of. They stole what they sold from their customer to give to a foreign government.
The actual hand-over probably has nothing to do with French law.
Right, it has to do with US law. Specifically property theft, conspiracy to commit a crime, and possession of stolen property. The people responsible at the registrar deserve to be prosecuted and jailed along with all the other criminals.
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Post to cancel moderation.
Vive le Marché Libre (Score:5, Informative)
Citation: https://www.icann.org/news/ann... [icann.org]
Congress didn't renew the contract, the Republican majority congress... Thanks Obama!
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Bush didn't have ICANN do anything. The US has the authority to seize domain names that are within its TLDs, like all countries do. Among those TLDs that are within the US's jurisdiction are .org, .com and .net.
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The moral appears to be don't register domains with companies that are going to voluntarily transfer domains without putting up a fight.
I'd say the moral is: Don't apply for a trademark for "France" when there is a country that has been using that name long before your company France.com was around. Otherwise you loose that trademark to the country called France which then has every right to demand your domain France.com from you.
France.com wanted to much and lost everything. They have nobody to blame but themselves.
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France can trademark its own name?!
Can you please explain why they shouldn't be able to trademark the name that they have been using for hundreds of years commercially?
And why some US company should be able to trademark it, even though France has been using "France" commercially for hundreds of years longer than that company has?
Re:Two things... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Since when did French trademark law have jurisdiction over American domain names?
2) Doesn't trademark law require you actively defend your own trademarks? 24 years of doing nothing about france.com is not very active.
It seems that France didn't have a trademark for "France", so they had no reason to defend anything.
But once France.com applied for this trademark, the country of France had to object to this trademark. The idea that some company controls the trademark "France" and can decide who can use "France" in a commercial setting is just ridiculous.
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It seems that France didn't have a trademark for "France", so they had no reason to defend anything. But once France.com applied for this trademark, the country of France had to object to this trademark.
I don't see that in any of the recent coverage. Have you got a link?
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France.com's operators noticed a Dutch firm, Traveland Resorts, had filed a trademark application for france.com. Frydman then sued to stop that happening and in 2014 the trademarks were transferred by what appeared to be mutual agreement to France.com Inc.
So Frydman and France had an ongoing relationship. A Dutch firm tried to steal his business name, he sued and won. And as a result of that, France decided that if anyone is going to own the name it should be them. He won his lawsuit and still got screwed. I wonder what Traveland thought was the endgame here.