WeWork Employees Caught Spying on Competition (nypost.com) 112
An anonymous reader shares a report: The battle in the red-hot co-working space business is heating up. WeWork, the No. 1 player in the sector, allegedly sent two spies to infiltrate rival Knotel -- to steal info and some customers, Knotel claimed. The spies showed up at seven Knotel properties in Manhattan last month in a "systematic attempt to pilfer Knotel's proprietary information and trade secrets," according to a cease-and-desist letter the smaller company sent to WeWork. The Post has obtained a copy of the letter. The corporate espionage rookies may have pulled off the caper except, in a totally random happening, a Knotel employee recognized one of them as a friend of a friend, according to sources close to Knotel. While the pair used fake names to gain entry, according to the letter, a call to the Knotel worker's pal got the spy's real name -- and a couple of social media inquiries turned up the fact that he worked for rival WeWork, sources said. The letter to WeWork asks for a reply by Oct. 13 -- but so far Knotel hasn't heard a peep from its rival, according to CEO Amol Sarva. While inside the Knotel offices, visited Sept. 12-14, the luckless spies posed "as the founders of a fast-growing startup" and said they needed space for their six-person company, according to the letter.
forty spots (Score:5, Insightful)
Have they actually done anything wrong? I'd be very surprised if hotel chains, airlines etc. didn't send people to try out the opposition from time to time.
Re:forty spots (Score:5, Insightful)
The hotel may not be willing to hand over the source code to its billing system, or their customer list, but information like, "how spacious are their rooms" is easily acquired.
Re:forty spots (Score:5, Insightful)
Anything that a prospective customer - not even an actual one - can see is hardly a secret.
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What is "co-working space".....and how is it a business?
Re:forty spots (Score:5, Informative)
It's a trendy new way to say that they own commercial buildings and rent out space in them.
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It's a trendy new way to say that they own commercial buildings and rent out space in them.
But here is the cool thing: Say a small startup (XYZ Corp) rents out an 8x8 ft office in a "co-working" space, with a dozen other offices used by other startups, a shared conference room, break room, printer/copier, and receptionist. Today, an important prospective client is visiting. You can swap out the sign on the door from "WeWork" to "XYZ Corp", and the (shared) receptionist will greet them with a chirpy "Welcome to XYZ Corp". You can then give them a quick tour of "your" office suite, and then take
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They don't even own the buildings, they just lease the space. That shows you how screwed up Silicon Valley Valuations are.
My company needed to lease out space there for a few months not too long ago and we really liked the space. The service was good, (TBH they weren't really designed to handle the needs of a non-startup company).
The best way to describe it, WeWork takes the old "business centers" and combines it with the coffee-shop which will let you sit all day, with some business programming.
It's a rea
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Small-scale office space for rent with shared facilities, dressed up in buzzword bingo terms.
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It's when workers from different companies share an office [wikipedia.org], apparently. It's a business because you can rent office space for a profit.
Coworking is a social gathering of a group of people who are still working independently, but who share values, and who are interested in the synergy that can happen from working with people who value working in the same place alongside each other. Coworking offers a solution to the problem of isolation that many freelancers experience while working at home, while at the same time letting them escape the distractions of home.
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Hmm....rather than a problem, I thought this was a BENEFIT of working from home, away from the distractions of the office, not to mention NOT having to drive and park somewhere...?!?!?
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Some people like a work-home separation.
I like it. I don't $350 a month like it.
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Some people like a work-home separation.
I like it. I don't $350 a month like it.
You're not the target market, then. It might work for some people.
It might also work if you visit clients intermittently over the course of most days in a city that's somewhat remote from your home.
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I thought this was a BENEFIT of working from home, away from the distractions of the office
Sometimes the distractions at home are worse than at the office. Three pre-teen children, for instance, can add quite a bit of disruption.
My employer has it right, I think. I can stay late, work in peace, and earn credited time whenever I want. The credited time works the same as vacation time. Overall, I prefer this to overtime.
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Well, during "work hours" they are in school, right? (at least when not summer).
Also, you could do what my parents did when I was young and he had work to do at home (usually on weekend)....I'd be told to essentially shut the fuck up, you're dad is working....go outside and play if you can't be quiet...etc.
But with nicer language than I used here...hahaha.
I hope I n
Re: forty spots (Score:2)
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A co-working space is where a company buys a few floors of a building, then partitions them up into rooms of various sizes. So a four-person company might rent a medium-sized room. Occasionally, that company might have visitors for meetings, so on those days they reserve a conference room using a credit card. They only pay for the conference room when they need it. There might also be other small spaces where, say, an individual can close a door to take a personal phone call. Most also provide things like a
Re: forty spots (Score:1)
Hello? He finished his comment with an insult - this is standard form for correct statements on the internet. What more do you want?
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Have they actually done anything wrong?
If they signed a contract using a false identity then probably. Beyond that I don't know. If NewYorkCountryLawyer [slashdot.org] were here perhaps he would.
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Have they actually done anything wrong?
You mean like lying and saying that you're a company looking for space when you aren't?
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And if I say I've had a long, busy day at the office and I have a real big appetite -- but I'm actually the restaurant reviewer for The New York Times -- what's my level of "wrongness"? If a company offers tours of their facilities to prospective customers, there's no way of keeping that information secret. What if the people taking the tour didn't lie? What if they really DID work for AcmeCorp ... only their sole purpose in being there was to go back to their friends at WeWork with a complete report of wha
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To assume your competitors aren't going to/aren't allowed to research you seems naive at best.
True -- but I never said or assumed that.
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There is a huge difference between "doing wrong" in a moral sense and a legal sense.
That said, secretly shopping at your competitors' shop is standard practice. I'd hesitate to judge them, as I suspect both sides are doing it.
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There is a huge difference between "doing wrong" in a moral sense and a legal sense.
True. I'm speaking about ethics, not legalities.
I'd hesitate to judge them, as I suspect both sides are doing it.
Not me. How common the practice is has nothing to do with how ethical it is. I feel fine judging all sides for this.
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Have they actually done anything wrong? I'd be very surprised if hotel chains, airlines etc. didn't send people to try out the opposition from time to time.
Trying to steal their customers while entering the building under false pretenses is wrong; scouting the premises, not so much, but doesn't that seem like a grey area? Otherwise, why conceal their identities?
Re: forty spots (Score:2)
Maybe for the same reason restaurant critics don't announce themselves?
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Is this unethical?
Sure it is. If you find yourself lying to people, then you're being unethical.
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If you find yourself lying to people, then you're being unethical.
I'll dispute that.
In a free marketplace, producers and consumers rely on accurate and complete information to make decisions in their own best interests. Incomplete disclosure reduces the overall quality of the production/purchasing decisions.
If lying elicits disclosure of useful information, then it can be better ethically---but the negative effects of such deception must be weighed as well. A simple, naive rule such as, "Don't lie" will always fail; it's only a question of when.
An obvious failure is when
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If lying elicits disclosure of useful information, then it can be better ethically
You haven't supported this assertion. You've made the argument that lying can be useful in a "free" marketplace. That is not related to whether or not it's ethical.
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Lying is not, in and of itself, unethical.
I disagree. I think lying is inherently unethical. There are situations where it is the least unethical of available options, but that doesn't change the underlying principle.
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Is this unethical?
Yes, it is unethical. When I am at a trade show if someone comes to our booth asking questions but not wearing a badge, I am very careful at what information I give out.
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Have they actually done anything wrong?
They gave false names and lied about their intentions in order to gain access to otherwise restricted and secure systems.
I'd call that pretty wrong, from a moral standpoint.
From a legal standpoint - trespassing, misrepresentation, fraud, and I'm sure a handful of related charges would apply.
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Stores do this all the time (Score:2)
It's not as common in the last couple of years because so many prices are now available online, but I've talked to people going through the aisles of stores checking prices and availability of items that were working for a competitor. I've also seen jobs posted for doing it.
In a competitive leasing business like this that doesn't rely on some patent or otherwise protected product, you can either compete heads up with all of your "secrets" plainly written in your fliers, likely because you've made better dea
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No, they haven't done anything wrong.
The letter to WeWork asks for a reply by Oct. 13 -- but so far Knotel hasn't heard a peep from its rival, according to CEO Amol Sarva.
And that's why, they don't need to reply to this stupid letter either.
If Knotel could sue them for criminal trespass, they would have. Or if Knotel had seen them going through some of their private filing cabinets, Knotel would have said so by now.
While inside the Knotel offices, visited Sept. 12-14, the luckless spies posed "as the founders of a fast-growing startup" and said they needed space for their six-person company, according to the letter.
I'm not sure why the summary would consider them "luckless".
They visited 7 out of their 8 Knotel New York locations. And either they were found out before they could get to the 8th location, or maybe they didn't care about the
What is the "Red-hot co-working space business"? (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone please explain in a few words, what kind of "sector" that is supposed to be.
Re:What is the "Red-hot co-working space business" (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What is the "Red-hot co-working space business" (Score:4, Funny)
I think it's like Starbucks but instead of selling you overpriced coffee they charge you rent. And then sell you overpriced coffee.
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I can see you spent a lot of time an energy on this post. Sorry it didn't work out for you, but know that at least one person read it and thought it was clever. Not funny, mind you, not really a "ha" escaping my lips, but my lip might have twitched towards a smile at one point. Keep going and you'll get there!
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Re:What is the "Red-hot co-working space business" (Score:5, Informative)
If you have a small business that's just getting started and will hopefully be expanding quickly, there are two ways to get a place to work:
1) Rent an office, and then when you hire more people you have to move to a bigger office so you're always either paying for more space than you need today or spending time moving; arrange people for all the things that are required for a usable office like cleaning, setting up a network, etc...
2) You call WeWork and say "I want offices for two people in your Boston building". You get the offices, and there are shared conference rooms that you can reserve as you need them. WeWork takes care of cleaning, the network, a cafeteria, etc (which you are paying for as part of your rent, but at least you don't have to worry about setting it up). When you expand, you tell WeWork you now need a third room, and they give you more space, so your existing people don't need to move (or only move around in the same building), and you don't need to waste your time dealing with the real estate market.
Number two is significantly more expensive in dollars, but number one is significantly more expensive in your time investment; if you are a well funded startup, you don't mind spending a lot of money, but you'd rather spend your time working on your business rather than worrying about office space. If you are a poorly funded company, or a large enough company that you are using large blocks of space and can afford to hire someone to deal with the details, #1 is the better choice, which is why the classic real estate market is in no danger of vanishing.
Re: So.. Commercial Subleting? (Score:2)
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Number two is significantly more expensive in dollars
Not necessarily. It depends on what you need. Private offices for dozens of workers might be more costly, but in that case you are paying for a turnkey, all inclusive(ish) solution and flexibility (co-working spaces are typically rented monthly or shorter terms vs. annual or multi-year leases for traditional space).
But if you only have a few people, or just need desks (vs. private offices), you may come out cheaper in a co-working space. At the bottom end, for businesses that need little space, a co-work
Re:What is the "Red-hot co-working space business" (Score:5, Funny)
It's a synergized working environment to achieve advanced cyber results while optimizing office space to achieve maximum just-in-time productivity curves and dynamic staff allocation that adjusts to holistically fit customer-adaptable technology with cutting edge business needs. The future is in human clouds and your staff can be cloud-ready today!
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We are working on AI translators that convert back and forth between English and MBA.
Example:
MBA: "Our organization has adamantly decided not to tolerate any memos, emails, or documents which reduce our reputation among potential clients."
English: "Bash us and you're fired!"
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Wow. You filled every square in my Buzzword Bingo sheet, except the center one ("AI").
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Hah! I'm still waiting for "synergy" and "blockchain".
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Didn't the original Bob Newhart Show take place (mostly) in a shared office environment? Bob was a psychologist, I know there was a dentist. Maybe a lawyer too? I can't remember.
I'm not sure you could call it 'synergy' in the workplace. But there was lots of funny scenes, I bet that would be marketable in today's shared office environment.
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Business model (Score:3)
Re:Business model - yup (Score:1)
We are reaping the rewards of years of very low interest rates and the Fed printing money.
With all that super cheap money floating around, people are gambling in the hopes of hitting it big real quick.
The folks who sold that building made a nice sum of money off of this current popularity in tech. These companies are being stupid with their capital because it's so easy to get. There are plenty of people who'll throw money at things.
This morning, I watched how the CFO of GM argued how GM is a tech company.
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This morning, I watched how the CFO of GM argued how GM is a tech company.
You may now view GM as a tech company, but the development and production of something as complicated as a modern day car is a pretty damn technical. Sure, there are still a lot of components that aren't electronically controlled, but cars have for decades been full of parts that qualify as "tech industry" parts.
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So, this company, whose service is providing chairs and tables and coffee, just bought a $850 million building [nytimes.com]? What. The. Fuck??
From what I can find with a quick search online, commercial leases in New York are around $75/month/sqft. If they can rent out a quarter of that building (the article says it's 650k+ square feet), they'll make back the $850 million in under 10 years.
WeWork isn't some cool new startup business, they're just a commercial landlord.
Not even worthy of being called amateurs (Score:2)
"and a couple of social media inquiries turned up the fact that he worked for rival WeWork,"
Face -> palm.
What exactly did they do wrong? (Score:1)
It's normal for businesses to shop at rivals and compare. What exactly did they do other than go to get an idea of costs, facilities and atmosphere of a competitor? This seems like a big no story and an attempt to make one company look bad for no reason.
Who? What? (Score:2)
Co-working space business, WeWork, Knotel...
Never heard of that or either companies before today.
How is that news for nerds? Oh, right. That's not even Slashdot's motto anymore.
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When did you get impression that "news" only describes things you've already heard of before?
What a strange way to define news.
Or is it the "for nerds" part that threw you off because you think that if you're not interested in it then no other so-called "nerd" might be?
Also where did you get the idea that it's not their motto anymore? "Slashdot: News for nerds, stuff that matters" shows up quite prominently in the tab of my browser.
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(Courtesy of Terry Pratchett)
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People don't want new, they want to member.
(Courtesy of South Park)
Re: Who? What? (Score:2)
Re: Who? What? (Score:2)
Poaching tenants (Score:1)
Trade Secrets? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm struggling to figure out just what "trade secrets" there might be in a co-working setup. The billing system? The facilities? The sort of coffee they have? The network setup? The way they control print costs?
It's hard for me to imagine just what a co-working group has to really hide that's so proprietary.
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I'm struggling to figure out just what "trade secrets" there might be in a co-working setup.
I imagine it would be a list of their customers along with what they are being charged. Then they'll target those people with special deals, possibly at a loss, to cut their competition's income.
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Well, I could get their fee schedule and amenitines, as well as probably the decore from their website. And if I sat outside the building with a cup of coffee, I could see who comes and goes. Now, actually trying to hack their systems from inside...well, that's another matter. But, there's no discussion of that here.
I could stand outside handing out fliers and telling them to come by for a visit and a special offer, details during the tour if they come by. Then just pilfer them that way by offering them
WeWork co-working space - what a great business! (Score:4, Interesting)
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I'll be happy to supply you with a whole can of Folgers for $199.
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Your employer isn't even using lube.
I'd bring in a french press and grounds.
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I always spy on competitors (Score:2)
I visit their websites and see what's going on and to see what prices they charge and I discount my prices to be blow theirs. I sometimes visit their stores and buy a product and see what discounts they give in store.
I know others competitors spy on what I do as I've had complaints from wholesaler that I'm too cheap blah blah. So I made this post on my FB page https://www.facebook.com/aquat... [facebook.com]
If you're not paying attention to your competition, then you're not running your business properly.
I recall (Score:2)
getting the reports from marketing after they had paid a contractor to go take a competitors training class. If the corporate crown jewels can be stolen by taking a tour, yikes how far tech has fallen.