Uber Said To Use 'Sophisticated' Software To Defraud Drivers, Passengers (arstechnica.com) 168
A class-action lawsuit against Uber alleges that Uber has "devised a 'clever and sophisticated' scheme in which it manipulates navigation data used to determine 'upfront' rider fare prices while secretly short-changing the driver," reports Ars Technica. "When a rider uses Uber's app to hail a ride, the fare the app immediately shows to the passenger is based on a slower and longer route compared to the one displayed to the driver. The software displays a quicker, shorter route for the driver. But the rider pays the higher fee, and the driver's commission is paid from the cheaper, faster route, according to the lawsuit." From the report: This latest lawsuit (PDF) claims that Uber implemented the so-called "upfront" pricing scheme in September and informed drivers that fares are calculated on a per-mile and per-minute charge for the estimated distance and time of a ride. "However, the software that calculates the upfront price that is displayed and charged to the Users calculates the expected distance and time utilizing a route that is often longer in both distance and time to the one displayed in the driver's application," according to the suit. In the end, the rider pays a higher fee because the software calculates a longer route and displays that to the passenger. Yet the driver is paid a lower rate based on a quicker route, according to the suit. Uber keeps "the difference charged to the User and the fare reported to the driver, in addition to the service fee and booking fee disclosed to drivers," according to the suit.
Uber at it again? (Score:4, Funny)
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If you lie, steal, cheat, manipulate; and STILL cannot turn a profit, then you truly suck at business.
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Exactly.
I'm starting to think a ride sharing service should be based on open software, fully transparent including pricing algorithms, and run by the government or a non-profit.
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Exactly.
I'm starting to think a ride sharing service should be based on open software, fully transparent including pricing algorithms, and run by the government or a non-profit.
They do have those, it's called a BUS.
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Really? You don't get what I mean?
Uber or Lyft aren't anything like a regular city bus services.
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Then vote that your local government makes its own?
Though to be honest, whenever people come up with this ideological shit, you typically end up with crap like Quaero [wikipedia.org].
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"Then vote that your local government makes its own?"
Not sure how you said that makes sense.
"this ideological shit"
What AC said, and if you call organizational transparency and open software ideological then so is closed software and administrative secrecy, ie what's the problem.
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Or when your ideology is that everything public sector is good.
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Yeah, a ride sharing service run by the government or a non-profit could be a very good idea.
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Yeah, a ride sharing service run by the government or a non-profit could be a very good idea.
I'm sure that was a sarcastic comment, but the problem with that is now you have multiple different ride sharing services, all of which are probably under-funded, and low quality. Take Austin, for example. They have banned Uber and Lyft, and they have 3 different "community-based" ride sharing apps. I've looked at all 3 of their apps on the app store, and they all have horrible reviews for either sleazy drivers or poor app performance.
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I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being literal because I wasn't sure of the intentions or meaning of the post I was responding to.
"they have 3 different "community-based" ride sharing apps. I've looked at all ..."
Three competing "community-based" projects isn't necessarily the way to go about it, and of course knowing Uber's management and some of their supporters, maybe a lot of negative votes for the Austin 'ride-sharing' apps come from them.
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Correct, I can get where I'm trying to go, at a reasonable rate, without hassle, quickly.. this isn't anything like a regular bus service.
I rely a lot on bus service. Where I live (Honolulu) it can
1) Generally get me where I want to go, or at least fairly close, but in a smaller number of cases not close at all
2) With a hassle factor no less than medium and ranging up to tremendous
3) Quickly? Never. Typically three times as long as driving
4) But it's cheap. Extremely cheap compared to any other option, including driving, even on short trips if you consider the total cost per mile of driving and not the incremental cost
Uber claims to save you
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Obviously I was not in the mood for that, then.
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Does it cost billions to run a few servers, hire a few programmers, sysadmins and marketeers?
No, but it's been well-documented that the bulk of their loss is caused by the money they're paying to drivers. Their business model will only work when they get autonomous cars.
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Uber's attempt to build its own anonymous cars having run into a set of bars, it will shortly find out that even if another entity does manage to develop a general-purpose autonomous vehicle (unlikely) it will only see them to Uber for the full cost + profit. Unlike the current owner-operated model where Uber depends on the drivers not understanding that while modern cars are quite reliable the cost of wear and tear, maintenanc
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The phrase "ride sharing" is a marketing buzzword in the case of Uber and its competitors.
Some rural areas have car pooling parking lots along the highways (ex: MDOT Carpool lots). Basically it's a convenient place to meet on a commute. Theoretically you can setup an informal arrangement where someone drives and the rest split the gas. But I can't recall the last time I saw cars parked there as I passed by on the morning commute.
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Or, alternately, the passenger sees the best route when they book, but that can change due to traffic, and the driver can therefore get a better (or worse!) Best route when they pick up. That's how up front charging works. Sigh.
But no.. It must be some evil plan to defraud..
Note the article says it can be longer, not that it always is.
Uber is trash for a number of reasons, but this just sounds like another attack from the incumbent taxi scam.
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Or, alternately, the passenger sees the best route when they book, but that can change due to traffic, and the driver can therefore get a better (or worse!) Best route when they pick up. That's how up front charging works. Sigh.
I thought Uber received a percentage of the amount the customer pays, and that was set in the contract between Uber and driver. If the calculated price somehow changes, then Uber should still receive the same, fixed percentage of what the customer pays. I'd say that if that is what the contract says, and Uber doesn't report the payment correctly and keeps the difference, that's just plain fraud.
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From the description it seems that the customer price is fixed when they put in the request and the driver payout is based on the actual route driven. If the two routes are the same, Uber would get a consistent price per mile or minute. If the routes are different Uber would be responsible for the difference, getting more if the driver beats the estimate, potentially losing money if things go badly.
IMO, this seems a bit backwards, as it both encourages Uber to do stuff like this and encourages the drivers
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encourages the drivers to waste time or take a longer route if they think they can justify it.
This is why I fucking hate cabs.
Re: Uber at it again? (Score:1)
In my day they'd just put their thumb on the scales or short-change you. I'm impressed how the AI in Uber's software can recreate these ancient skills.
More proof that drivers are employees (Score:5, Interesting)
If this claim is true, the claim that Uber merely facilitates the agreement between the driver and passenger and takes a commission is clearly bogus.
Also, if Uber specifies the route and demands that the driver takes that specific route, that may be exerting too much control of the drivers for them to be contractors.
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Pretty sure the driver can take any route they (or the passenger) like. Which is probably why Uber is padding the up front cost.
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> Pretty sure the driver can take any route they (or the passenger) like. Which is probably why Uber is padding the up front cost.
As best I can tell, Uber and Lyft and other services monitor the routes _actually_ taken by the drivers quite closely. It's part of how they aggregate data about shortcuts, blocked roads, and other useful mapping informaiton.
I've not seen this with Lyft, which I've used extensively for the last few years. Can other Slashdot readers confirm that they're seeing the route they're
Regulation (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is Uber's woes a surprise to anyone? We learned these lessons as a society when taxis were new.
Uber shows up, avoids regulation, offers cheap fares, accuses the existing infrastructure off being too bloated, and makes a bunch of money. Then it's noticed they are doing the same thing that taxis used to do before formal regulation.
Things like: overworking drivers, fudging rates, opaque accounting practices, etc.
I have to snicker when those in their 20's seem to think Uber is revolutionary and doesn't need to be "old skool" regulated, then quickly complain when things don't work out by saying, "they shouldn't be allowed to do that."
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and makes a bunch of money.
Uber is losing money. Hand over fist.
Re:Regulation (Score:5, Insightful)
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no, uber contractors stupid enough to lease a car through Uber are in massive amounts of debt. Especially if they don't understand basic car maintenance.
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> Uber is losing money. Hand over fist.
It's irrelevant to the management who are collecting salaries and collecting options. The options may not be worth a lot to rank and file employees, but when the company is finally bankrupted or sold off, those can still turn a tidy profit for managers. I saw this done by various manipulative means in the dotcom era.
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The crazy thing is, they are still way cheaper than a taxi despite all the BS...
We just can't have nice things...
Re:Regulation (Score:5, Informative)
Hard figures needed. Because, although the rider may pay less, Uber heavily subsidizes rides, and those subsidies must be included as part of the true cost when comparing with taxis.
It's said [fastcompany.com] that Uber subsidizes over half the cost of a ride, so the true cost would be at least double.
So, we should expect the price to the rider to be less than half the cost of a taxi if they're truly cheaper. But, that doesn't appear to be the case [businessinsider.com]. In fact, only when you add a 20% tip for the taxi driver, and only in one city, does that hold true (numbers are old, feel free to dig up more recent ones). In some cases, Uber is more expensive, even without considering the subsidies.
Re:Regulation (Score:4, Insightful)
As a rider, I don't give a fuck WHY it's cheaper for me. Cab companies here flat suck. I suffered permanent injury because of one stranding me, forcing me to walk several miles in bad conditions before Uber.
In general it's less than half what the cab companies charge here (south florida). Not counting tips.
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I don't even care about the cost, it's getting the goddamned ride to show up when I want it. Taxi service in Minneapolis always sucked -- the ONLY time it was reliable was airport to home because the cabs were lined up and waiting.
At least when I get an uber ride I've never waited more than 10 minutes and its seemed really reliable. I've had fucking cabs not even show up at all when I booked AM rides to the airport. Where I used to work we had an account with a Town Car-type limo company because the cabs
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You should give a fuck because if it is cheaper because Uber have found a way to do taxis significantly more cheaply than existing taxi companies or they are subsidising every taxi journey their customers take.
If it's the former, everybody is happy except the traditional taxi companies. If it is the latter, Uber is going bust which means your cheap rides will soon come to an end.
Hint: Uber loses something like $2 billion per annum. I really don't think they are going to be around for more than a few years.
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I gotta funny feeling taxis EVERYWHERE suck!! My one experience with either of the major ride-shares was last October from the airport home via Lyft.. Since I'd never used either service, when my plane landed late and I decided I didn't want to wake the wife to come get me, I installed the Lyft app from GooglePlay and signed up for an account. Total time from loading the app to hopping into a nice Nissan Altima with a lovely lady driver was less than 10 mins, including my derp-out of not being in the right
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So, it's all about you, and blaming others for things you won't take personal responsibility for. With that attitude, you'll never have a happy life.
Hint: walking a few miles is NOT a hardship, it's part of life.
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Re:Regulation (Score:5, Insightful)
The crazy thing is, they are still way cheaper than a taxi despite all the BS...
I too can provide cheap service by not complying with laws, overworking and underpaying employees, being under- or uninsured, and burning venture capital. Just remember to give me my bonus, and watch me undercut competition.
Data Point for a single city (Score:2)
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Yeah, how are they so cheap?
Oh right:
http://www.news.com.au/finance... [news.com.au]
http://viewfromthewing.boardin... [boardingarea.com]
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/0... [nytimes.com]
https://www.bloomberg.com/news... [bloomberg.com]
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I see this enough that I have to really wonder where the hell people are living that they can't get a taxi? I haven't been to NYC, but I've been all over the world, Paris, Hong Kong, lived in the San Francisco Bay Area a while & I've NEVER had a problem getting a taxi.
In the San Francisco bay area, actually. Not in the city, though: I've never had a problem in the actual city.
Most of the places you listed are big cities or heavy metropolitan areas. If you live in Amsterdam, there's no problem getting a taxi. If you're in New York's central park, there's no problem getting a taxi. If you're in Eindhoven, it's tougher.
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So where exactly are these places that taxis are so hard to come by?
Try Las Vegas, for one... They ALL run up/down the strip (locals call it the "resort corridor"), and just *try* to get one to come out into the areas where those of us who LIVE here actually LIVE... Its like pulling teeth.. I'm sooooo glad we now have Lyft (the only one I've actually used.. with all the bad-vibes about Uber, I'm kind of afraid to) and Uber...
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You might want to let Uber know about making a bunch of money, because according to their accountants they're losing it at a pretty astounding rate.
Re:Regulation (Score:4, Funny)
Any similarity with the old style industry is extremely tenuous, and only similar in that they also put people in the back of a car, drive them some place, then charge them. This is an entirely new industry, Industry v2.0 if you will. All the old rules don't apply and can be ignored because all those old fart legislators don't understand these new things that the youngsters have invented.
Louis DePalma? (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Does Uber have Louis working for them?
Uber cares nothing about drivers (Score:1)
Not just states and cities they defraud, but the drivers themselves.
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Re:Uber cares nothing about drivers (Score:4, Informative)
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They're not using drivers to fund any research. That would imply that they were actually making money on them. At best, they're using drivers to make it look like they actually have a business so they can get more loans and venture capital.
Someone MUST go to jail... (Score:2)
...And not just the company heads, but the coders themselves.
Here's why: They authored code that when used as intended, would defraud innocent folks by default.
I must add that going to jail for a crime like this isn't that certain at present in these United States, sadly.
Re:Someone MUST go to jail... (Score:5, Insightful)
Programmer#1: OK boss.
Manager: Programmer#2, I need you to create a function named Pay_Driver() to calculate the shortest and fastest route possible for our beloved drivers.
Programmer#2: OK boss.
Manager: Programmer#3, I need you to write a program Win_Win that calls Charge_Customer() and Pay_Driver().
Programmer#3: OK boss.
Taxis (Score:1)
Who carries the risk? (Score:4, Insightful)
It sounds like Uber charges an up front fixed price fee with a risk margin built in. If the driver takes less time then Uber keeps this margin, however if the driver takes longer is Uber out of pocket? If so this is pretty much like all fixed price work.
Uber could make or lose money on each job.
Re:Who carries the risk? (Score:5, Informative)
Nope, If the route is longer than expected. Say construction detour, uber will recharge the passenger.
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In that case, its dodgy
That's not what they're being accused of (Score:2)
They could charge whatever they want, but that's not what they're doing. They're effectively telling a Rider the fee is $20 bucks, telling the Driver it'll be $18 and pocketing that $2. Assuming this is true (and it's easy to prove) They're lying to the Driver and almost certainly committing fraud by doing so.
Re:Who carries the risk? (Score:4, Informative)
That's arguably even worse. It means that drivers are being paid per mile/minute of driving they do, while passengers are paid per trip they get. In other words, for entirely different things. That indicates Uber is NOT facilitating contracts between riders and drivers, but rather, they are providing rides while paying the driver a salary. No different from your local city bus. Once all those drivers are classified as employees, it's immediately obvious that Uber is violating a million employer laws.
And here's the issue with excessive regulation. (Score:5, Insightful)
Taxis have all sorts of regulations, most of them are for the good of society, such things as:
- maximum prices
- accountable billing practices
- enhanced driver licensing requirements
- vehicle inspections
- hours of service regulations
- insurance requirements
But then governments went overboard and also added regulations that do not help society at all such as:
- minimum prices
- limits to the number of taxis
The end result is that while most people applaud the items in the first list, the abhor the regulations in the second list. That list is why society as a whole is screaming for "ride-sharing" services to come in to their cities. That's why everyone is willing to pretend that these aren't taxi services, it's to try to get around the ridiculousness of those excessive regulations that are hated by all but the taxi industry themselves.
Problem is, you end up "throwing out the baby with the bathwater". If governments had stuck to regulating the safety and price gouging aspects of taxis, without artificially constraining supply or forcing artificially high prices, there'd be no demand for "ride sharing" services.
Any smart government would start over, and regulate anyone carrying passengers for hire the same, without limiting who can do it, or setting a minimum price. You'd get as free a market as possible, while still ensuring everyone plays fair and safe. Uber would hate you, but they'd have a really tough time getting the public on their side if the local taxi industry was already competitive (which they'd have to be if there were no limit on the number of taxi licenses).
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Price floors are always a good thing, and are the hallmark of civilized society.
The limit to the number of taxis is also, generally, a good thing.
taxi regulation began in the world because everyone with a car started to pick up fares during the Great Depression. It really was total chaos, especially in Manhattan where all this regulation began.
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Price floors are always a good thing, and are the hallmark of civilized society.
I agree. Price floor on the inhalation of oxygen and transmission of bytes per mile transmitted over the Internet are a good thing.
The limit to the number of taxis is also, generally, a good thing
Artificial scarcity tends to erode legitimacy. Nobody ever benefits from this save an entrenched few and everyone else suffers as a result of longer wait times, unnecessarily high costs or proliferation of criminal enterprise.
History is rife with examples of what happens when governments leverage their monopoly on violence to enforce artificial scarcity. Organized crime growi
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The limit will enforce itself. If there are no fares, there will be no taxis. Nobody's going to drive around empty for long.
Conversely, if you have to wait 4 hours for a taxi (not at all uncommon around the holidays here) someone will put a car on the road to get those frustrated customers.
Limiting the number of taxis is patently absurd. Unless of course you're a taxi driver trying to avoid having to compete....
Unless you propose limiting how many people can drive at any one time in general (why focus only
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The laws here were made to benefit a few hundred taxi drivers, at the expense of over a million citizens. It was due entirely to greed and lobbying by taxi companies.
We don't owe taxi drivers a living. If somebody is willing to do the job for less money, let them. If there are enough customers to allow more taxis to make money, let them. This is something that will sort itself out very quickly, and reach an equilibrium. In fact, Uber is proving that right now. The taxis are so hard to come by, and so expens
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You left out monopolies. Around here at least, the lack of competition lead to the taxis still using credit card imprints until Uber and Lyft came through. The added hassle meant some cabbies asked up front and refused service to those not paying in cash, worse, some would kick people out when they found out part way through the ride.
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No, I didn't leave out monopolies, that was covered on the limit to the number of taxis. Without that limit, there'd be competition.
Already since Uber came to town the taxi companies around here are making major changes, they've never had to compete before.
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Limits to the number of taxis are necessary in certain places (like Manhattan) where taxis form a large part of street congestion.
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The limit will enforce itself. If there are no fares, there will be no taxis. Nobody's going to drive around empty for long.
Conversely, if you have to wait 4 hours for a taxi (not at all uncommon around the holidays here) someone will put a car on the road to get those frustrated customers.
Limiting the number of taxis is patently absurd. Unless of course you're a taxi driver trying to avoid having to compete....
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The maximum price is regulated, and all the taxis charge the maximum, because charging less would not be an advantage: When you're hailing a cab on the street, it would be pretty hard to know which cab had the lower price (and it might be the only cab around, anyway).
Now that even the taxi companies are starting to use phone hailing apps, maybe they could get rid of the maximum pricing regulations.
YMMV
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The price here was both a maximum and a minimum. It was illegal to charge any other price period. That was one of the things that Uber successfully changed when they came to town. Originally they got in trouble from the government for charging too little, they fought it, and the law was changed to specify only a maximum, and no minimum. Ever since then the Taxi companies have started reducing their fares to compete.
And no, you don't need minimum pricing. If it's not profitable to drive a taxi, don't drive a
what a shock.. (Score:2)
Just ditch Uber already (Score:2)
Use Lyft, it's better for the driver and better for the passenger.
If all the drivers who complain about Uber would just go to Lyft, the passengers will follow. Same for passengers.
Sign up to drive: https://www.lyft.com/drive-wit... [lyft.com]
Get free passenger ride credits: https://www.lyft.com/signup/PO... [lyft.com]
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Well I'll use either service depending on what I'm doing but I do prefer Lyft because I can tip with the app and not carry cash.
Most drivers I've met drive for both.
sophisticated software (Score:4, Insightful)
"Uber Said To Use 'Sophisticated' Software To Defraud Drivers, Passengers"
Really now. You wouldn't expect a high tech company like Uber to use unsophisticated software to rip off its customers and employees ... ehrr .. independent contractors?
I am running out of excuses (Score:5, Interesting)
That said, if you are going to tackle regulators and try to bring free-market reforms, a certain percentage of the population is going to perceive that as immoral. In order to stand up against the fierce winds of authoritarianism you better darn make sure your service is as safe and convenient as possible and make sure your business is run in such a way that it stands up against the fiercest of ethical scrutiny.
When you have cars that are killing people, contractors being accused of sexual assault, MANAGERS being accused of sexism/racism in the workplace, and a CEO with a cringe-worthy temper AND evidence that your pricing models are not as transparent and honest as you led people to believe, you are just further reinforcing socialist's/communist's opinions that all companies are greedy, immoral, and care about nothing more than the bottom line. Instead of being a force for good and promoting libertarian ideals, you are just contributing to the decline of freedom and encouraging an excessive bureaucratic government to continue regulating our rights away
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Re:I am running out of excuses (Score:5, Insightful)
Libertarians seek to maximize political freedom and autonomy, emphasizing freedom of choice, voluntary association, individual judgment, and self-ownership. So sayeth Google, so sayeth we all.
You can use your individual judgement and freedom of choice to voluntarily associate yourself with a pack of vicious scumbags, or not.
Mind you, the idea what people will generally act decently given that freedom of choice is just SO ADORABLE.
Libertarians are so cute, yes they are, yes they are!
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Free market wins again! And yeah people DO generally act decently given freedom of choice, this is why America gives more and has more charities than any other country in the world. And while dueshbagg
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> you are just further reinforcing socialist's/communist's opinions that all companies are greedy, immoral, and care about nothing more than the bottom line
Really, you think 1) that's just an opinion instead of a nearly universal fact and 2) that only socialists and communists think that way?
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Socialists and communists are the ones that believe that companies being that way is a bad thing to be fixed rather than a part of a working society.
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you are just further reinforcing socialist's/communist's opinions that all companies are greedy, immoral, and care about nothing more than the bottom line.
Isn't it weird that companies do this every single time they're given the chance? It's almost like the socialists are right. Weird huh?
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evidence that your pricing models are not as transparent and honest as you led people to believe
I'm not sure that's the case. This upfront price is a fixed price and fixed prices carry risk, and it's perfectly reasonable -- indeed, necessary! -- to offset risk with some upside. I guess the question is what happens if the driver runs into unexpected delays or detours, and the actual fare is higher. If Uber eats the loss in that case, then it's a perfectly reasonable business model. The driver gets paid the same as if the rider hadn't opted for the up-front price (except that perhaps they have a rider w
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Or, instead of naively using a fixed percentage, they could develop a sophisticated algorithm which identifies the probability of a deviation and its likely magnitude. You know, like what they actually did.
We don't know what they did, but simply choosing a longer route does not identify the probability of a deviation. Depending on how the select the longer route, it may or may not identify likely magnitude.
Doesn't ring true. (Score:3)
Now I normally take shorter rides, but I've never once seen the proposed/priced route be anything other than I would expect. The price has (unless I absolutely had to get a ride at peak) been anywhere near excessive.
I have had drivers (mostly Haitian cabbies moonlighting or trying to switch) that do not use the Uber provided guidance (or any at all since they're using their phone to talk to their families in Creole) and take typical cabbie routes instead (way too long for the trip). Those drivers get a 1 to get them out of the pool as fast as possible.
Some real life data (Score:2, Informative)
Here's some real life data to put this into perspective:
A few days ago, I took a trip from JFK to my home in Long Island.
Fare displayed by Uber before trip: ~$73
Fare charged to me: $73
Fare Uber told the driver they charged me: $58
Share of Fare Uber gave to driver: $38
So they took roughly half of what I paid to them.
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What's the fraud against the passenger? GP was told the trip would cost $73, and GP did indeed pay $73. Unless Uber had assured GP that the trip would be less at some point in the past, it's a matter of buying a service at a known price. It may be an inflated price, but that isn't fraud. The driver is contractually supposed to get a certain percentage of what the passenger pays, and didn't. That is illegal, and since Uber lied to the driver it's also fraud.
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I'm still not seeing it. Uber fares can vary, such as when surge pricing is on. The passenger was offered a certain ride for a certain price, and agreed to it. The passenger didn't know how the price was calculated. Does Uber widely advertise how its fares are calculated, to the extent that deviating from the algorithm is fraud?
WTF!? (Score:2)
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Another anti-Uber story. Who's paying for all these?
Uber's customers and drivers.
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Another anti-Uber story. Who's paying for all these?
The now-legendary Taxi Cartel-ZOG over-arching conspiracy.
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Screwed? You must be joking. Do you know how expensive the alternatives are? How crude? How seedy?
On their worst day, Uber is cheaper and the driver is far less creepy than any cabbie you will ever encounter.
Perhaps drivers are getting screwed. Not the customers.
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Or it could be that Uber is run by a bunch of scofflaw assholes. It happens. Their attempts to end-run around laws don't inspire much confidence in me.
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They're really Über, they only drive on elevated roadways.