Police Request Amazon Echo Recordings For Homicide Investigation (cnet.com) 168
Tulsa_Time quotes a report from CNET: Amazon's Echo and Echo Dot are in millions of homes now, with holiday sales more than quadrupling from 2015. Always listening for its wake word, the breakthrough smart speakers boast seven microphones waiting to take and record your commands. Now, Arkansas police are hoping an Echo found at a murder scene in Bentonville can aid their investigation. [First reported by The Information, investigators filed search warrants to Amazon, requesting any recordings between November 21 and November 22, 2015, from James A. Bates, who was charged with murder after a man was strangled in a hot tub. While investigating, police noticed the Echo in the kitchen and pointed out that the music playing in the home could have been voice activated through the device. While the Echo records only after hearing the wake word, police are hoping that ambient noise or background chatter could have accidentally triggered the device, leading to some more clues. Amazon has not sent any recordings to the officers but did provide Bates' account information to authorities, according to court documents. The retailer giant said it doesn't release customer information without a "valid and binding legal demand." "Amazon objects to over-broad or otherwise inappropriate demands as a matter of course," the company said in a statement. Even without Amazon's help, police may be able to crack into the Echo, according to the warrant. Officers believe they can tap into the hardware on the smart speakers, which could "potentially include time stamps, audio files or other data."] Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.
Bugs (Score:5, Insightful)
People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.
Re:Bugs (Score:5, Informative)
There are multiple self hosted solutions. Any old Mac has this for at least a decade. (Our old Snow Leopard Mini has it).
Jasper [github.io] and Lucida [github.com].
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Yeah man those are TOOOOTALY the same thing. TOOOTALY.
Re:Bugs (Score:5, Insightful)
Because when you say this
People intentionally bugging their own homes and paying a corporation for the privilege to do so.
I read this
I am irrationally scared of an Echo but not by the phone in my pocket.
Re:Bugs (Score:4, Insightful)
Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.
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In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone
Well the police are actually very consistent in all of this. They regularly request things that don't exist and aren't possible. It would be interesting how this would stand up in court given that asking Siri where to hide a body used to be something people did for shits and giggles.
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It would be interesting how this would stand up in court given that asking Siri where to hide a body used to be something people did for shits and giggles.
Bayesian statistics could help: If you ask Siri that question when no family member has just been murdered, it is likely a joke. Otherwise, there is a conditional probability that it is not.
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Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones?
Irrelevant. This is not about how stupid the police are, but about what Amazon records. They do not record "ambient audio". The device itself only listens for the "wake word", which is "Alexa" by default. Only the sentence directly after that wake word is recorded and transmitted, and this is relatively easy to verify.
Being paranoid about Echo and not your cellphone is irrational.
Re: Bugs (Score:2)
And after the neural network has analysed it and extracted the command, the raw audio data may well be ditched other than the command it recognised with a success/error response code. There may be no recordings available for the police at all.
Re: Bugs (Score:4, Interesting)
And after the neural network has analysed it and extracted the command, the raw audio data may well be ditched other than the command it recognised with a success/error response code.
I don't think anything is kept locally, but I don't think all the data is ditched on the server. If I say "Alexa, play some music" it will play something I like, such as Willie Nelson or Waylon Jennings. But if my daughter says the same thing, it will play something she likes, such as Bruno Mars. So it is obviously saving enough info to recognize the voice and preferences of individual family members.
Re: Bugs (Score:3, Informative)
I worked for Nuance, and they kept *all* post keyword phrases on their server. At least on the project I was working on. Whether they do this with their smart phone apps I really don't know. And whether Amazon does the same I really can't say, unless Amazon it's actually using Nuance...
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Audio data, or just a log of the voice recognition output? Those are 2 very different things.
Re: Bugs (Score:4, Insightful)
1. They have sold millions, so I figure somebody has checked.
2. If they were actually recording everything, a lot of people would have to be in on the secret.
3. I assume that Amazon is run by greedy bastards, and they wouldn't build a lot of expensive extra capacity into a device if there was no profit in it for them.
4. If they were spying, and got caught, it would have terrible effects on their reputation, and cost them a lot of customers.
Re:Bugs (Score:4, Insightful)
Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones? In this example, the police DO treat an Echo differently from a cell phone, and the DO expect it to have stored audio that might aid their investigation, because unlike a cell phone, the echo records everything when active.
Law enforcement treats the objects differently, so seems perfectly rational for consumers to notice the difference.
How would you know what the police do with cell phones? Law enforcement even hides whether or not they use a stingray at all, and there is very little information about what the devices are and what they are capable of - maybe they really can remotely turn on your phone's microphone and record what you're saying? And all of these secrecy comes not just with the Justice Department's blessing, but at the outright request of the Justice department.
...The documents also discuss the possibility of flashing a phone’s firmware “so that you can intercept conversations using a suspect’s cell phone as a bug...
https://www.wired.com/2015/10/... [wired.com]
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dunno, but it is why my house has one room with no cell signal.
It was by happy accident, but one I don't care to correct.
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Yes they secretly turn on thousands of phones....lolllllllllll
Incredulity is not an argument. I also do not think they are secretly turning on thousands of cell phone microphones. But that has no bearing on whether or not they are doing it.
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Do police regularly request cellular phone companies to provide recordings of ambient audio recorded by cellphones?
I expect once the police realize there is nothing there, they will not regularly make this type of request, either.
Re:Bugs (Score:4, Funny)
The Association wouldn't allow me to say anyway. That's what the brain-chip was for.
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The summary says:
So no, they're not expecting it to have anything on it, they're just checking to make sure in case it was accidentally activated.
To me, this is no different than them making sure the background noise of a recorded call doesn't con
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While you can't easily prove your phone ISN'T sending data, you can certainly prove when it IS sending data.
Simply take out the SIM card, turn on WiFi, and monitor the connections. I'd imagine many apps/hacks/vulnerabilities aren't designed to automatically disable if the cellular radio is off. So that'd logically leave you with ones that are, and ones that depend specifically on a cellular modem. (Fun fact: Cellular modems can actually have root file access to your phone, an "Red Flag!"-level vulnerability
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Audio is only uploaded once the wake word is used. As it exclusively uses your home wifi, it is easy to test for and monitor this, unlike the phone you likely carry in your pocket.
That isn't much comfort to me because I don't know what it's uploading. Plenty of keyloggers will record all of the keystrokes you type offline, then upload them in bursts when an internet connection is detected. How do I know Alexa isn't recording every time it hears the word "kill" or "heroin" and then uploading those clips in bursts the next time I ask Alexa to re-order toilet paper? If I'm sniffing the network, I won't see it uploading anything at the wrong time, but I don't know what it's uploading when it hears the wake word.
If you're worried about it, capture packets 24/7 from the device, compare traffic on days when you use it to days when you don't and you'll see that it's not sending enough data to be actively monitoring your conversations.
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You sure?
Show me a link to verify from Amazon what you just said.
Why would you trust a link from Amazon? But, If you're going to trust Amazon, then here is "proof" that the Echo only sends audio shortly after it hears the wake word:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help... [amazon.com]
When Amazon Echo or Echo Dot detect the wake word, when you press the action button on top of the devices, or when you press and hold your remote's microphone button, the light ring around the top of your Amazon Echo turns blue, to indicate that Amazon Echo is streaming audio to the Cloud. When you use the wake word, the audio stream includes a fraction of a second of audio before the wake word, and closes once your question or request has been processed
If you don't trust Amazon, then why do you want to see a link from Amazon confirming that if the device doesn't send data, then it's not sending audio? Surely Amazon is not going to tell you that they use the top-secret invisible NSA access points to send data, so you won't be able to detect it.
Most already pay for and carry their own tracking (Score:2)
device.. and many of those consider it a status symbol. Why are you surprised? Personally, I'm just disgusted.
I even know people who know better buying garbage like Amazon Echo. It saddens and sickens me to see shit like this without any regard whatsoever to the consequences of the death of privacy and thus security and free speech.
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Privacy is out the window.
I write about this shit a lot and it's similar to the "War on Piracy" in that when crap is digitized, it's essentially in the public domain.
My fucking car rats me out via a service I use. My phone does. My desktop and all my tablets do, too.
I get made when I buy shit at Walmart, via receipts and security cameras.
There ain't a goddam thing that's going to change all that, so we have only two choices:
A.) Get over it.
B.) Get used to it.
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Whose?
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Find the richest fuck and then work downhill.
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I think this is his [indianexpress.com].
Top 10 richest people in the world ...
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Because they are not people (Vatican, the Gettys, the Rothschilds), not all that rich [cnn.com] (the Queen) or died [wikipedia.org] December 16, 1980, Louisville, KY (Col. Sanders).
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Sounds good to me. A rich fuck who still tries to make more money they don't need just so someone else cant have it sounds like a great fucking idea and the morals I strive for.
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device.. and many of those consider it a status symbol. Why are you surprised? Personally, I'm just disgusted.
I even know people who know better buying garbage like Amazon Echo. It saddens and sickens me to see shit like this without any regard whatsoever to the consequences of the death of privacy and thus security and free speech.
Do you have a Samsung HDTV? It's a tracker and they keep the info received forever the ToS reads, while it's for your benefit and they meant it for that reason, They keep a record of every word said, action you make and viewing habits, for voice activated, gestures and targeted ads.
I've read their ToS my Samsung is my computer monitor it doesn't connect to the Internet and I've never created an account for it, it had built in webcam I'd of taped it as I do all the cams that come this way.
Twice in the past
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yes, I notice you use a personal computer too.
capturing and recording all that data as you watch porn and jack off.
I'm scared of my pc for that reason, I better surf up some good jacking porn to calm me down.
Grab much? (Score:1)
They took the PS4? Really? WTF do they think they'll get from that? Me thinks some officer wasn't able to afford a PS4 for their kid even on boxing week.
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We have a system of supposed checks n balances, and a proper Search Warrant in a murder investigation. I am not sure what anyone is complaining about (no, I am not saying you are complaining). The whole "Grab everything" excuse is acceptable here, in this case. It may not be worthy in other cases, but in this one, I have no problem with.
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In this day and age the warrant likely says "Grab anything electronic, we'll sort it at the evidence cage."
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my dad has a voice command TV, it listens to him yell at politicians and hippies, I don't think it actually activates anything,
I have for sale at a reasonable price a "voice command rock". It listens when you yell about politicians and hippies, doesn't actually activate anything, AND you don't need to worry that it is secretly recording your political outbursts for later corrective counseling. Unlike the need to trust your local librarian that they do not keep records of what books you borrow, or your phone company recording your calls, or viewing records from your set top cable box, there truly is no record of anything kept by thi
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Subpoena. It's not that easy to spell.
Never saw this coming (Score:3)
Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...
Re:Never saw this coming (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh just don't indulge in thoughtcrime and everything will be doubleplusgood.
Re:Never saw this coming (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Never saw this coming (Score:5, Insightful)
did i miss the amazon denial of recordings?
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If the echo actually recorded everything in its hearing range and sent it up to the mother ship you would see the packet traffic, there would be a significant drag on your bandwidth and if you are charged by the megabyte your billing would jump through the roof the moment it was tu
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sorry didn't mean all audio, maybe just the pertinent audio around the keyword. does amazon store that info perpetually?
all audio would definitely be much more traceable.
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Re:Never saw this coming (Score:4, Funny)
LPT: If you're being murdered, tell Alexa.
Alexa: My brother in law Jerry is here and has a knife and is stabbing me! Ow!
Could be enough to prove he's lying (Score:4)
The suspect said he went to bed at 1:00 AM with the4 victim alive, then woke up at 8:30 to find him dead. The water meter indicates the drowning occurred between 1:00 AM and 3:00 AM.
ANY recording of the suspect's voice between 1:00 AM and 8:30 would probably indicate that the suspect is lying. Even if he checked the weather forecast at 4:00 that would indicate he wasn't asleep as claimed.
On the other hand, if records or witness testimony indicates that the habitually suspect uses the Echo several times per hour and he did NOT use it between 1:00 and 8:30, that would be consistent with his claim that he was asleep, somewhat corroborating his story.
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Oddly, even if he DID speak to Alexa, it wouldn't mean much. Some people talk in their sleep and later wake with no memory of it.
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Depends where the Echo is, if it's in the bedroom, then your point applies, if it's in the kitchen or living rooms, less so.
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If the echo actually recorded everything in its hearing range and sent it up to the mother ship you would see the packet traffic, there would be a significant drag on your bandwidth and if you are charged by the megabyte your billing would jump through the roof the moment it was turned on (assuming something like 1 meg/minute of audio would give 1440 megs per day in usage).
Voice codec traditionally used by cell phones and VoIP average on the order of 1k/sec. This is 60k/minute, 3.6 mb/hr, 86 mb/day or 2.5 gb/month. It wouldn't be noticed by most broadband subscribers. This not counting deployment of silence detection or significantly more complex codecs enabling you to do many times better than 86mb/day. Combined with batch operation that sent a week or more at a time users could be left completely clueless without reverse engineering/persistent packet capture.
This isn't t
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my assumption is that if a packet capture saw continued stream even when nothing should be sent, some one would have noticed it by now.
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Did anyone ask?
One thing I did miss is all the evidence of the device constantly streaming data to foreign servers instead of just triggering on a wake word locally and then recording the rest just like Siri and Google.
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No idea why the cops would even need to ask Amazon. All they need to do to find them is look in the dungeons below a particular pizza joint in Washington DC.
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And before you ask - why don't they keep it anyway and just say "yup we're deleting it"? Because if the trust that had to be built up for people to agree to have this device in their house is violated (ex employee shows logs of all data being retained against users wishes), people will throw the devices out in a hear
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You face a bigger problem with proliferation. There's no way to hide when everyone else is doing it. Just ask Facebook.
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Color me right, I never would've though that this would happen. this is why I won't have this sort of device in my home. Soon, they'll asking for all sorts of info...
They ask for all sorts of info anyway, even when the device doesn't store it. Not having an Amazon Echo won't stop the police asking for very stupid things if you are a murder suspect.
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Not having an Amazon Echo won't stop the police asking for very stupid things if you are a murder suspect.
Why is it stupid to see a device that is designed to send audio across the net and ask for any audio that it might have sent across the net? Especially when they are trying to solve a murder.
Not too long ago people would have thought it was stupid for law enforcement to ask for cell phone position data for lost people from the carriers, especially if the lost person had a cell phone and could call out for help in the first place. But cell phone position data is becoming the main resource for search and res
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Why is it stupid to see a device that is designed to send audio across the net and ask for any audio that it might have sent across the net? Especially when they are trying to solve a murder.
Depends on what they are asking for. If they know that the person said "Alexia, where should I hide the body." Then yes. If not then they are stupid.
Not too long ago people would have thought it was stupid for law enforcement to ask for cell phone position data for lost people from the carriers, especially if the lost person had a cell phone and could call out for help in the first place.
Err no, no one ever thought this was stupid. It was known from the very earliest mobile phone implementations that carriers knew where the phones were.
On the flip side here it looks like "A microphone, clearly it records everything so let's get a warrant for it" which is absurd and stupid.
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How do they know, without checking?
All of the arguments I've seen here are boiling down to 'it's stupid.' I don't think so. I've had Siri trigger while listening to audiobooks or podcasts that haven't said anything I'd interpret as 'hey Siri.' It's not out of the realms of possibility that something might have gotten triggered, and an incredibly small chance
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It's not out of the realms of possibility that something might have gotten triggered
Shit police are relying on this kind of blind hope? Man law enforcement is dead in this country.
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If by 'blind hope,' you mean 'tracking down all possible leads, then sure.
And really, what does this cost the police? They send a request to Amazon saying 'please send any recordings that happen to exist for this account for this timeframe,' and Amazon sends back either a) any recordings that happen to exist, or b) a note saying that there aren't any.
I really fail to see the problem here.
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And really, what does this cost the police?
Nothing. And what thegarbz is forgetting, and I almost forgot about, is that the alleged killer is saying he was asleep during the time of the murder. And he's forgetting that Alexa does record when it is spoken to.
It is clearly possible that the killer made a request of Alexa during the time he claims he was asleep. Once you have a time-saving convenience tool you are likely to use it out of force of habit. Killers are stupid enough to google for info about how to do it right even when there is a browse
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Depends on what they are asking for. If they know that the person said "Alexia, where should I hide the body." Then yes. If not then they are stupid.
No.
Err no, no one ever thought this was stupid.
Err, yes, some people did.
It was known from the very earliest mobile phone implementations that carriers knew where the phones were.
First, no, not to the accuracy that they currently are, second, most people think the phone actually has to have a GPS turned on for this to happen, and third, early AMPS services did not need to have the location accuracy that current LTE services do. (LTE data rates actually adjust based on distance to the device.) This information you claim was ubiquitous actually wasn't. Users didn't then, and most still don't, know anything about this. To the vast majority of users these
Re: Never saw this coming (Score:1)
Does that prevent you from beeing murdered?
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I assume sibling was being hopeful that they do have a warrant, but I'm more pessimistic.
How long until enough people have one of these things that not having one is a sign that you're up to no good?
"Your honor, we find that there is are no log entires in MannaMegaCorp's holographic memory as to the whereabouts of the defendent at 9:54 PM on Caturday, Smarch 32nd. This proves that the defendant was willfully evading the Eyes. Only a guilty man would elude the Eyes."
. ...Hmm... now might be a good time to
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You got an android phone? It has the ability to listen when the phone is off to hear you say "OK Google".
When the phone is off? Either you are confusing "locked" or "asleep" with "Off", or intentionally spreading FUD.
Most newer Android phones implement "OK Google" hotword detection using hardware, meaning that a dedicated low-power chip listens for the hotword to wake up the audio processor, but is not constantly recording audio to storage in order to analyze it for the hotword.
Amazon Echo and Apple products have their own mechanism for hotword detection. Some of these do record a continuous multi-second
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So I guess the moral of the story is that if you are being strangled in a hot tub, you could do worse than yelling "Hey Siri! Call the police!" with your final breath.
Except for the fact that I have (allegedly) turned off the voice activation for my phone, I would expect that it would respond along the lines "My name is Okay Google, thank you very much" were I to yell that. So no, there isn't much worse I could do than yell "Hey Siri", unless I thought the killer was carrying a Siri-enabled iPhone and his Siri would obey my command and rat him out.
"Hey Siri, ignore any cries for help or screams of pain for the next fifteen minutes" might be something that Apple uses to
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The chips from Sensory date back to around 2010, at which point they were all of two bucks each [engadget.com]. I don't recall which Android phones do or do not have chipset based hotword detection, but suspect that it's all but ubiquitous these days.
The iPhone 6/6S build "Hey Siri" recognition into the same co-processor (really a subprocessor as it's part of the M9 CPU) as the step counter and other always-on features, so even when sleeping it is always checking the stream from the microphone for the hotword.
This redu
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Only if that function is enabled, which it isn't by default
If you're worried that manufacturers are spying on you when they say they are not (like when Amazon says that the Echo only listens after you say "Alexa"), then why would you trust that turning off the listening feature really turns it off? If they are going to outright lie to you about spying, they aren't going to let a user visible "on/off" control get in their way.
Notable missing gadget (Score:2, Insightful)
From the summary:
Police also found a Nest thermostat, a Honeywell alarm system, wireless weather monitoring in the backyard and WeMo devices for lighting at the smart home crime scene. Officers have also seized an iPhone 6S, a Macbook Pro, a PlayStation 4 and three tablets in the investigation.
All those gadgets, but this guy didn't have a security camera?
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i guess the alarm system didn't help either.
Cops.... so SMART! (Score:1)
Ultimately, it might have been information from a smart meter that proved to be the most useful. With every home in Bentonville hooked up to a smart meter that measures hourly electricity and water usage, police looked at the data and noticed Bates used an "excessive amount of water" during the alleged drowning.
Pure genius.
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Amazon - Overly broad? (Score:1)
Seems a pretty specific search warrant. A one day window of any recordings made at a homicide scene. Not exactly what I'd consider a fishing expedition. Asking for info because maybe someone was thinking of something illegal sometime in the last week would be rather broad, even overly broad. One day at one scene where a crime definitely occurred? Hell no, that's plenty specific and justified. Doesn't mean Amazon can help. If the mikes off its off, no evidence to offer.
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How certain are you that they'll get nothing useful? This is a murder investigation. They often have trails that lead to dead ends, but need to be explored anyway. The police are being thorough here, that's all, and looking for anything that might possibly be helpful.
I told you so (Score:2)
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Told us what? The police asking for something that doesn't exist has been a given for many years. They seem to be clueless as to how the Echo works. ... kind of like you.
Is Wal*mart behind this? (Score:1)
I'm not one to traffic in conspiracy theories, but Bentonville, Arkansas is where Walmart's corporate headquarters are located.
Not that they have an axe to grind with Amazon or anything.
The Last Straw (Score:2)
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"Just one more thing....'
Columbo plots so often centred on him learning about a new gadget and that it was in an odd state at the time. I think Columbo would do just fine today :)
Echo isn't the smart device that cracked the case (Score:4, Informative)
So basically the guy's alibi might have held up if (1) he hadn't used his phone after he claimed he went to sleep, and (2) the water meter didn't show significant activity in the house after he claimed he went to sleep (police think he was busy washing away any evidence).
How to get away with it (Score:2)
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'ok google' sounds enough like the noises one makes while drowning that maybe it activated on the victims struggles. :p
Software non-freedom should make you feel unsafe. (Score:3)
I refer you to my previous comment [slashdot.org] on this theme and the ridiculous posts which fail to debunk the always-listening = spying theme by claiming to know what proprietary software does. Not only are such claims ridiculous on their face, but even if the spying were handled locally, it's trivially easy to record, compress, and store data from the device either uploading it with other data when the user expects something to be uploaded or buffer the spying fruit until a later time. And there's nothing stopping interesting background information from being captured too. The purpose of the captured data is subjective—a tracker owner may have intended to use the device to do one thing, but the background audio/video reveals something of interest in another context. The solution, of course, is to grant computer owners as much control over their computers as they can have by having all computers run nothing but free software.
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I normally wouldn't give your clumsy and inept follow-up a response, but I'm feeling more charitable. Your response is akin to concluding that because not all Americans have time or inclination to become great writers or orators therefore Americans don't need freedom of speech. Your response both ignores what has been going on for decades and (perhaps purposefully) fails to understand the difference between freedom and obligation.
Apparently billions of computer users "patch, upgrade, use, [and] enjoy" their
Why would Amazon keep the recordings? (Score:2)
Maybe I'm missing something, but this doesn't seem like how I'd design or build this thing.
First of all, there's no reason to store, even for a few seconds, anything before you detect the hotword to wake up. Next, the device does need to record the next bunch of time and forward it to Amazon for processing. But once the audio is processed, and the command detected, what can be gained from storing the raw audio? it would take a fair amount of storage space to keep the audio from every device for long periods
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What you're saying is very plausible speculation, but it's speculation. Neither you nor I nor the police actually know there isn't a scrap of evidence to be found there. This is a murder investigation, and the police are following up unlikely possibilities in the hope that something might turn up. The search warrant is adequately specific by Fourth Amendment standards. Why do people think there's a problem with this?
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Police asking for stupid things which don't exist are the reason why you don't have gadgets in your house? What did you post this on, a telegram?
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And I know people who will never look up because satellites are watching. You should meet them. You'll get along fine.
Stay scared.