Feds Charge 61 People In Indian-Based IRS Phone Scam Case (consumerist.com) 139
BUL2294 writes: Following the arrests earlier this month in India of call center employees posing as IRS or immigration agents, USA Today and Consumerist are reporting that the U.S. Department of Justice has charged 61 people in the U.S. and India of facilitating the scam, bilking millions from Americans thinking they were facing immediate arrest and prosecution. "According to the indictment (PDF) -- which covers 20 individuals in the U.S. and 32 people and five call centers in India -- since about 2012 the defendants used information obtained from data brokers and other sources to call potential victims impersonating officers from the IRS or U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services," reports Consumerist. The report adds: "To give the calls an air of authenticity, the organization was able to 'spoof' phone numbers, making the calls appear to have really come from a federal agency. The callers would then allegedly threaten potential victims with arrest, imprisonment, fines, or deportation if they did not pay supposed taxes or penalties to the government. In instances when the victims agreed to pay, the DOJ claims that the call centers would instruct them to go to banks or ATMs to withdraw money, use the funds to purchase prepaid stored value cards from retail stores, and then provide the unique serial number to the caller. At this point, the operations U.S.-based counterparts would use the serial numbers to transfer the funds to prepaid reloadable cards. The cards would then be used to purchase money orders that were transferred into U.S. bank accounts of individuals or businesses. To make matters worse, the indictment claims that the prepaid debit cards were often registered using personal information of thousands of identity theft victims, and the wire transfers were directed by the organizations using fake names and fraudulent identifications. The operation would then use 'hawalas' -- a system in which money is transferred internationally outside of the formal banking system -- to direct the pilfered funds to accounts belonging to U.S.-based individuals.
Unwanted Competitor (Score:2, Funny)
What makes them any less legitimate than the 'real' IRS? It's a scam either way.
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Re:Unwanted Competitor (Score:5, Insightful)
Too bad the police don't focus more on real crime. I received dozens of these IRS scam calls, all with thick Indian accents. Everyone I know received them as well. That means there were billions of calls being made. Yet, it took the feds years to do anything about it. And now they arrest 61 people. There is no way that all of those calls were placed by only 61 people.
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This latest batch, at least when they got your answering machine, involved bad computer voices (think xtranormal).
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Re:Unwanted Competitor (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of them were probably made by people in India being paid a token amount (who may not have even realised that they weren't working legitimately for the IRS). Those 61 probably represent the ones that actually made the money.
Actually, they understood that, perfectly. Your good scammers need to be intelligent to actually convince people to part with their money, and they need to know that they are running a scam, not actually representing a governmental agency in another country.
After receiving 4 calls in one day from them, I started calling them back. They would ask for my name, and I would remind them that they called my number, and left messages insisting that I owed money to the IRS, so all they needed to do was look at my phone number, and tell me who I was and how much I owed. They would then hang up on me. After about a dozen attempts, they recognized my number, and once answered the phone with a "f*ck you" and immediately hung up. After the 20th time I called them back, in a row (yes, I was bored, and apparently there were 3 or 4 people answering calls on the number they were using at the time, so I started recognizing their voices,) I lied to them and told them that I had just called the IRS, who denied having anything to do with this, and who had directed me to the FBI, who would be calling them, shortly. In a rare moment of "fsck this" the scammer said "Yes sir, you are right, this is a scam. If you fell for it, we were going to get you to send us all of the money in your bank account." I was shocked by this, and also excited, because I was recording the call (I'm in Virginia, a 1 party consent state.) So I drew him out, and he explained to me that he wasn't worried about the law coming to get him, because "we have been doing this for years. They never catch us. They never going to catch us." He then asked me, politely, if I would please stop calling them. I told him to stop calling my number, if he didn't want to keep hearing from me, dozens of times for every call they made to me, and he agreed.
They did call me back the next day (darned scammers, not keeping a good Do Not Call List,) but, after that, it was over a month before they put me back into the regular rotation.
Yes, I still have the recording. I had plans to post it on youtube to shame the government into some kind of action, but, when I looked it up online, I found that this was so well known for so many years that it was clear that the scammer was essentially right... no one was coming for them.
This news article made me smile. I kind of hoped they got the "they never going to catch us" guy.
Re:Unwanted Competitor (Score:5, Insightful)
- The U.S. government does not perform legal notifications over the phone. They will send you a letter via US Mail. Sometimes 2 or 3, just to make sure you got it.
- The U.S. government knows you by your Tax ID number (or Social Security number). It's on every tax form you submit.
- The U.S. government absolutely DOES NOT REQUIRE payment by GREEN DOT CREDIT CARDS! They will accept personal checks, cashiers checks, and even direct withdrawals.
- The U.S. government doesn't use call centers in India for the IRS. The Internal Revenue Service is by definition "INTERNAL". There is absolutely no need to involve any other country in this aspect.
This is how you tell a scammer from the REAL IRS. If the person calling you seems to think differently about any of the above, HANG UP. It's a scam.
Re:Unwanted Competitor (Score:5, Interesting)
HANG UP. It's a scam.
NO!!! Do not hang up on scammers. You should string them along and then find an excuse to put them on hold. I usually tell them to wait while I go get my credit card. Their scams only work if they can quickly weed through reasonably intelligent people, to zero in on the idiots. If we all waste their time, even just a minute or two, the economics no longer work in their favor. So play along, act stupid, and trick them into waiting.
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https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us [fbi.gov]
That should be 1-800-225-5324, AC missed a 2.
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Not just scammers, but ANY telemarketer. And ESPECIALLY "Rachel from Card Services" Have fun with them. The infamous Tom Mabe telemarketer stunt [youtube.com] is but a suggestion of how to proceed. In my younger days, a housemate strung out a "vinyl windows and doors" guy for over 30 minutes. Serious fun can be had, messing with telemarketers. . .
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A telemarketer is doing a job. Some people may actually benefit from being exposed to a new product. Dont lump them with scammers
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I'm sorry, but NO, there is no such thing as a legitimate Telemarketer, and not one single person in the history of the planet has ever "benefit[ed] from being exposed to a new product" over the phone
I lump them in with scammers because they are scammers, regardless of whether they are technically legal or not. If they are so wonderful
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A telemarketer is doing a job. Some people may actually benefit from being exposed to a new product. Dont lump them with scammers
A kidnapper is doing a job. Some people may actually benefit from being forced to take a vacation. Dont lump them with real criminals.
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Telemarketing calls to cell phones are illegal.
How I wish this were the case in Sweden. Fortunately, the eniro.se app IDs most of them and they get added to the block list as soon as it stops ringing.
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On the plus side, you probably don't have to pay for calls you receive, like we do in the US.
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Oh, I know. Nobody in my immediate family uses a mobile, that being one of the reasons. I didn't get one before moving overseas, so I've never had to put up with that.
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Not just scammers, but ANY telemarketer. And ESPECIALLY "Rachel from Card Services" Have fun with them. The infamous Tom Mabe telemarketer stunt [youtube.com] is but a suggestion of how to proceed. In my younger days, a housemate strung out a "vinyl windows and doors" guy for over 30 minutes. Serious fun can be had, messing with telemarketers. . .
I just answer the phone, then as soon as I determine it's a scam / telemarketer, put the receiver down and walk away.
Takes them at least 15 seconds to realize nobody's responding, and minimal effort on my part.
I put them on three-way with each other (Score:2)
I save a couple of the asshole's numbers, then when I get another call I click "Add Call" and forward them to another telemarketer / scammer. Then I just listen while the Viagra guy pitches the alarm system guy and vice versa.
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I just answer the phone, then as soon as I determine it's a scam / telemarketer, put the receiver down and walk away.
Takes them at least 15 seconds to realize nobody's responding, and minimal effort on my part.
Same here, at least back when I had a landline and these calls were rife. I used to string them out, but then I realized I didn't want to waste my time wasting there's.
Nowadays I don't answer my phone unless I recognize the number. If they legitimately need to talk to me they can leave a message.
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Being on hold doesn't necessarily slow them; they are probably multi-tasking, doing multiple calls at once. If I pause to dig for info in a regular call, such as tech support for example, I can tell the operator works on another case.
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Re: Unwanted Competitor (Score:2)
...and abides by the same rules of bureaucracy.
Good God, man; they're even worse than I thought!
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What makes them any less legitimate than the 'real' IRS? It's a scam either way.
For one these scammers can't throw you in jail if you don't pay.
How could you fall for this? (Score:2)
... the call centers would instruct them to go to banks or ATMs to withdraw money, use the funds to purchase prepaid stored value cards from retail stores, and then provide the unique serial number to the caller.
Re:How could you fall for this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Old folks get scared and will do what they're told. As will non-tech-savy folk.
The bigger question is, when the hell are the telcos going to be forced to fix the spoofing problem.
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The bigger question is, when the hell are the telcos going to be forced to fix the spoofing problem.
When the public starts demanding it. This issue is too diffuse to matter in local politics, and national elections tend to focus on the personal behavior of the candidates rather than things that actually matter to the citizens.
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Why should telcos have to fix spoofing. This is evolution at play. Dumb people who just happen to have money because they lucked out by being born in a rich country are being cut down to their natural space in the scheme of things - penniless
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The man said my wife owed money on a speeding fine (which sounded plausible) and it wasn't until he wanted my credit card details that I even thought about it.
He then threated her with arrest, which I agreed was the best course of action, but about 15 years later, she has yet to be arrested.
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I enjoyed telling the user that if the FBI seizes a computer, you are normally in the back of one of their cars at the time. Also, the FBI does not cut you loose for a bit of cash. And lastly, the lock screen was just Internet Explorer in kiosk mode...
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One of the victims was a cancer survivor. Just goes to show how badly a serious illness can mess up the human mind. I, for one, feel badly for her and don't want to mock what happened to her.
A related question comes to mind: why do Microsoft and Facebook want these folks to work for them so badly that they push for H1Bs to be handed out like candy? It just doesn't seem right.
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they need to stop useing lowest bidder call centers.
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Who the fuck answers their phone any more from a number they don't recognize?
1. People that run a business.
2. People that have dumb kids who forget to take (or charge) their own cellphones.
3. Old people.
I fall into all three categories.
If my phone rings, I answer it.
Also, dealing with calls as they happen is more efficient than sifting through voice mail later.
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Re:How could you fall for this? (Score:5, Interesting)
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I know Americans like publically humiliating their inmates but I think this is more likely to be an informant inside the DoJ pointing scammers towards fresh victims.
Actually, calls about bail for a cousin, nephew, or grandson in a foreign jail is a fairly common and profitable scam. They prey upon people who have almost no understanding of how American bail system works, who realize they have no knowledge at all of how a South American, Asian, or African jail would work, and pile confusing legal words and urgency on top of it, along with implied threats to the treatment of their loved one if they don't pay.
Getting a legitimate call from a local police station saying "
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I have a hard time mustering sympathy for those who fall for rather obvious scams, unless they have mental health issues, in which case why aren't they taken care of and protected? Falling for a scam like this might be a good indication that a person needs a guardian.
That's not an excuse for the scammers, though - round them up, and put them in a cell with Sanford Wallace and Oleg Nikolaenko.
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unless they have mental health issues, in which case why aren't they taken care of and protected?
Mental health is not a binary condition, where you either have it or you don't. It is a spectrum, and nearly everyone suffers from some form of mental health issue at some point in their lives, including depression, autism, ADHD, dementia, etc. If all these people are "taken care of" and "protected" all of the time, we will be spending 120% of our GDP on health care.
The best way to protect the vulnerable is to arrest the people preying on them.
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Mental health is not a binary condition, where you either have it or you don't. It is a spectrum
That was kind of my point - when you are so far along that you fall for scams like this, it's a strong indication that you need assistance.
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when you are so far along that you fall for scams like this, it's a strong indication that you need assistance.
So how much additional taxes are you willing to pay to provide 24/7 monitoring of every stupid person in the country?
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So how much additional taxes are you willing to pay to provide 24/7 monitoring of every stupid person in the country?
Who said anything about 24/7 monitoring?
A financial guardian that needs to co-sign for all major expenses is not uncommon, nor that expensive, given that major expenses don't happen that often.
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"No one is intermittently autistic, demented, or suffering from ADHD"
But people can exhibit the symptoms to various degrees, and on more than one
"Your getting stuck on words rather than meaning, which is a very common flaw among slashdot commenters"
Not in this case, and you also need to consider that IQ, alone or in concert with the issues like ShanghaiBill and I mentioned, can be a huge contributing factor.
Re:How could you fall for this? (Score:4, Informative)
The things that make them 'rather obvious scams' to you may not indicate 'rather obvious scam' to someone in a different situation, regardless of any 'mental health issues'. The fact you can't understand that is a character flaw on your part, not theirs.
Things that mark it as 'obvious scam':
They called you instead of sending a letter, etc. - Maybe the person already has debt problems and is used to getting collection calls demanding payment. Whats one more caller? Maybe the person actually HAS tax problems and has received a letter, but has not taken any action.
Indian caller who barely speaks english - 25 years ago if you called customer service for any company you spoke to someone in the US who could speak english. Then companies started contracting out those call centers to India. There was no great announcement that this was happening, but when you called the same number you always called you were now talking to someone in India. Everyone knows their are government contractors. Is it entirely beyond reason that the government would do the same as those companies did? No.
Method of payment - 20 years ago it would have been unthinkable to pay McDonalds or a vending machine with a credit card, now it is commonplace. A very short time ago it would be unthinkable that you just tap your phone and a payment is made, now it is commonplace. It used to be if you wanted a CVS gift card you went to CVS, now you can buy a CVS card at Lowes. Maybe the method of payment requested seems unusual or odd, but is it really any more odd than buying a Coke with a phone?
In short, the more changes you have witnessed in your lifetime the less 'odd' any new changes seem. Things that to YOU may be giant red flags are just another change in an endless stream of changes.
And even if they DO think something is odd they may pay anyway. Most older people are risk averse, and the things they value most are their home and their independence. Threaten to take either of those away and you have triggered a very strong fear response. The risk of losing a little money to a scam pales in comparison to losing their home or independence, so they pay.
So why don't they ask for help if they suspect a scam? Because of assholes like you that think that is a sign they need to be 'taken care of and protected', thereby losing their independence.
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It is a crime to take advantage of someone like this.
Absolutely. I have not argued otherwise.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help the victims too. If they prove that they cannot be trusted to make a judgement, and lose money in the process, I think a financial guardian might be in order. If they don't want that, well, I can't muster much sympathy.
Spoofing numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, I know that this will be annoying for the outsourced call centers, where HP sells their call center to India and the Indian company calls an American with the CLID of the 1-800 number for HP, so the call looks like it's coming from the US, and if called back, gets to the right queue. But those edge cases don't justify allowing free range for the scammers.
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Not all that hard to block spoofing and also allow HP to outsource its call center. You allow only HP to spoof lines as HP. Therefore in HP owns a call distribution node, any calls routed through it can use HP's number and caller ID, even if they come from India.
Under this system, no one would be able to spoof a number they don't actually own, so you can hold the caller responsible for the content of the calls. If they don't want to be held responsible, they'd best be careful not to route bad actors through
only if HP pays the outsourcing tax (Score:2)
only if HP pays the outsourcing tax
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Or make HP route those calls through their own USA center so that no spoofing is needed. Then when a telephone company sees a USA HP number coming from India, they can block that call.
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Unfortunately there's a reason for Spoofing (Score:2)
There is a legit reason to spoof. People in hiding from abusive spouses, basic PBX, anonymous tips, reporters --- anyone who either wants to hide their identity or assume another one. For instance - when I call from my office I want the caller ID to be that of the main front desk so that a customer can have the call answered when they call back (if I'm busy or maybe somebody else can help them). This requires spoofing - even when I'm using my virtual phone.
How to lock it down? It is the Text that is sp
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For instance - when I call from my office I want the caller ID to be that of the main front desk so that a customer can have the call answered when they call back (if I'm busy or maybe somebody else can help them). This requires spoofing - even when I'm using my virtual phone.
No it does not requie spoofing. I've done it. The extension you are calling from is passed through the PBX that "owns" the front desk number. Any call from that PBX can legitimately use any number assigned to it without "spoofing". Now, if your "virtual phone" were to use a 3rd party gateway that had no connection to those numbers, then it would be spoofing.
But, as I said, if the fine was on the carrier for $100,000,000, then they'd allow spoofing. They'd just require more paperwork and verification.
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What useful message would EVER come from an Indian caller?
"Your Kashmir Indica block is ready for pickup"?
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I object to your over-generalization. Here in the US, it's not uncommon to deal with first-generation immigrants both professionally and socially. In fact, I've been dealing with South-Asian-accented English speakers in the US my entire adult life (I am 60).
My personal experience relating to the above news item:
A couple of months ago I was called by someone speaking with a South Asian accent (I can't narrow it down more than that). He claimed to be calling from the FBI (not the IRS nor immigration as in the
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I just hang up even if it's not an Indian. If it's not a voice I recognize, then I'm going make you jump through hoops to talk to me.
If it's actually important, they'll call back. Calls from a call center never seem to be important.
That said, I did once hang up on a cop. ...and whaddayaknow, he called back.
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Oh, Darn (Score:1)
Those calls were fun. I used to respond by being so insulting, abusive, and profane that the last "IRS" call ended with the "agent" shouting, "I'm coming to your house to shoot you in your face."
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Those calls were fun. I used to respond by being so insulting, abusive, and profane that the last "IRS" call ended with the "agent" shouting, "I'm coming to your house to shoot you in your face."
i did that, once. the guy was absolutely furious, but in the end all he could do was forward my number to half a dozen other scammers, which meant instead of one or two calls a week i got a call every night, around 6:00 PM, for about two months. when they called, i'd play the infamous Dog Pound Found Sound CD for them (https://archive.org/details/BadDogRadioMassacre-DogPoundFoundSound).
What? (Score:2)
What do you mean? Big Indian or Little Indian?
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What do you mean? Big Indian or Little Indian?
You, sir, made me laugh so hard I almost sprayed my drink across the table! You have won the internets today. Thank you for playing!
I Almost Never Agree (Score:4, Informative)
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If you were talking about people our age, you'd be right. The problem is that these people largely prey on the elderly, many of whom are much less street-smart than folks decades younger. They're from a generation born when these sorts of scams were relatively rare, so if somebody called saying they were from the IRS, they probably were from the IRS—particularly if
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Oh please. This has nothing to do with how 'street smart' older people are. What a stupid thing to say. It has to do with fear. Older people are naturally risk-averse, and the things many of them value most are their homes and their independence. You threaten to take away either of those things and you trigger a very strong fear response. Even if they suspect it is a scam the risk of losing some money is nothing compared to the risk of losing their home or independence.
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That might be partially true in this specific situation, but the fact remains that the elderly are also much more frequently the victims of many other types of scams that don't involve fear. Pyramid schemes, 419 and sweepstakes scams, fraud involving expensive subscriptions tucked away in the fine print of purchases, people pretending to be family members needing money, etc. all di
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Except for the subscription scams (which I don't know catch the elderly more than anyone else), and the 'family members' scam (more later), ALL of those are based on fear. It is funny that you claim to be so wise, but you can't see that simple fact.
A young person that gets into financial trouble, or thinks he may need more money in the future, has options. Maybe he can get another job. Maybe he can make a legitimate but risky investment. Maybe he can sponge off the parents for a while. Maybe he can cut
I hope that stops the calls (Score:3)
I've been getting the following for months.
I need you or your retained attorney of records to return the call. The issue at hand is extremely time sensitive. My phone number is 213-289-####.
Do not disregard this message and do return the call. Now if you don't return the call and I don't hear from your attorney either then the only thing I can do is wish you a good luck as the situation totally unfolds on you. Good bye.
I blocked part of the phone number just in case it belongs to some innocent person, but it probably doesn't and I was tempted to leave it. The phone number is also different every time they call anyway, but the message is the same.
Anyway, the message sounds so ominous but also so ridiculous. It doesn't give a hint at who is delivering this threat. Could it be the IRS? An old landlord? My ex-wife? It's the best, because by not saying it could apply to almost anyone.
I do have an unpaid parking ticket from about 25 years ago.
I guess "good luck" is on my side though because the situation has not totally unfolded on me.
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No this will not stop the calls. The masterminds behind this operation likely outsourced call centers just like legal businesses do.
I really doubt that they got the real masterminds behind this operation.
As for spoofing. Pretty much all these scam artists spoof phone numbers. Why this is allowed is beyond me. I have MMS and all that cool hipster crap disabled and even then once in a while I receive plain old SMS message with clearly spoofed source. It's not even a fucking phone number. They can spoof it to
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On the rare occasion when NoMoRobo* lets a spam call through to my house phone, I make it a point to say no more than the single word "Hello" when answering. Back before "slamming" was regulated, sleazy telemarketers would record the call and edit the right words in their recording:
Victim: Hello?
McSleaze: Hi, is this Mister Victim?
Victim: Yes.
McSleaze: Hi, Mr. Victim, can we change your long distance provider to ScamCo, and charge you double your current rates?
Victim: Hell no. [hangup]
They'd submit "your
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Let's go after the low-level phone people as well (Score:4, Insightful)
I have no sympathy for anyone at any level of this scam, including the low-level people following the scripts and making/answering the calls--those pretending to be IRS agents & scaring old ladies into giving up their life savings. These people know English and therefore know they are impersonating an agent of a foreign government (in this case, the big bad US Government, and its unlimited resources). It stands to reason that the foreign government in question might come after them one day. They probably also got a (teeny tiny) cut of each successful con, which makes this all the worse... Make an example out of them...
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I'd rather have them rot in an Indian jail, thank you very much. As a taxpayer, I'd be paying to have them rot in an American jail. Let outsourcing save me some money for a change.
jail's too good for that lot (Score:2)
hmmm, sounds familiar.
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Please don't lump me in with that particular lump.
In this case, they violated Indian laws, so the Indian police are able to arrest and prosecute them. The US just provided assistance in identifying the Indian criminals to the Indian authorities. There's likely zero chance any US victims will be able to sue and recover their funds, which is the only unfortunate part about letting them sit in India. But it's not like they'd get any money if the thieves were rotting in a US jail, anyway.
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In addition to those who perpetuated the scam, I feel that since the Thune, India police know the low-level employees who actually spoke from the scripts, I'd love to see the US indict those people, have them beg their families for Rupees to fight extradition in an Indian court, lose that fight,
Sounds like you're not familiar with India. They will have to pay a very small amount of Rupees not to be found by police whilst the US will have to pay a very large amount of Rupees for the police not to find them.
Secondly, there's a billion Indians, the US will run out of money three times over before they run out of volunteers.
Thirdly, the scammers will just move to another country where the US has no clout and the process will start all over again.
This is not fight you can win through legal bat
Needful (Score:1)
Kindly to be not making me your bitch, sir. I am working for Microsoft.
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It's sad that when i read that comment, I read it in a mix between Apu's and Ben Jabituya's voices.
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Newton: You're shitting me!
Ben: I am not shitting upon you sir.
Good! (Score:1)
Ha ha (Score:4, Funny)
I used to toy with these idiots and waste massive amounts of their time. They'd get so upset that they'd be screaming at me before they hung up (I counted that as a "win" for me).
There's no letdown like thinking you got a live one on the line, wasting 30 minutes reeling him in, only to have him start asking "What does it feel like to bang a goat?" or "Have I wasted enough of your time or should we keep going?"
I loved asking them if they had "updog", and when they'd ask "What is updog?" I'd yell "NOT MUCH MOTHERFUCKER!!"
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only to have him start asking "What does it feel like to bang a goat?"
My response to those questions has been "I don't know, go ask your mother" which usually sends them into a raging tirade of curse words in languages I don't know.
Car Warranty (Score:2)
I used to get a ton of these offering to sell me a high price car warranty. My car is still under warranty, so at first I dismissed it outright...but after 6 or 7 of these calls a week, I started to hassle the guys back. My favorite is when a guy tried to sell me a warranty, and I told him that I no longer had the car, but he could get me a quote for my new car if he wanted. I told him it was a Bugatti Veyron SuperSport (http://www.bugatti.com/veyron/veyron-164-super-sport/). He was like "hmm....I don't
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All the Calls did stop !! (Score:2)
The run up to this had twice daily calls coming to my house. Then nothing since.
I found it interesting that a few months ago I'd get a few calls per month. But they must known the police were coming and trying to build up cash quickly before disappearing and leaving others holding the bag. In the final weeks the call rate intensified and changed nature - I now had Live people calling (had been strictly "This is automated message from IRS -please call us back you are being sued"). No time to wait - get
Hawalas (Score:2)