FCC Nixes PayPal's Forced Robocalls Plan 122
jfruh writes: As part of a new user agreement created in preparation for its spinoff from eBay as an independent company, PayPal told users that the only way to avoid advertising robocalls from PayPal and its 'partners' was to stop using the service. This caused something of a firestorm, and now the FCC is saying the policy may violate Federal law, which requires an explicit opt-in to receive such messages.
Oh. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Oh. (Score:5, Insightful)
They've always been a little shady anyway, always wanting to ride that line between a service and a bank, while not wanting to fall into bank regulations.
Although eBay/PayPal appeared to be one company, they were separate business entities inside the company. I worked help desk for them prior to the Great Recession. Any hardware with an asset tag and licensed software got separated for either eBay or PayPal, as PayPal fell under the banking regulations and played by a different set of rules than eBay. If you were employed on the PayPal side, your credit record had to be in excellent shape or have your employment terminated. Just like working at a bank.
and to this day... (Score:4, Interesting)
And to this day PayPal continues to fight tooth and nail to have itself _NOT_ classified as a bank in the US to evade banking regulations.
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Then how is it that PayPal staunchly says "we're not a bank", and has never operated under any banking regulations?
What you're saying doesn't in any way match what they've been saying publicly.
I'm having a hard time believing that internally PayPal even admits it'
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Although the IT help desk is shared between the two halves, I worked on the eBay side and was told by my eBay supervisor that PayPal fell under banking regulations. That could easily mean accounting regulations for the purpose of keeping assets separate. OTOH, PayPal has stricter hiring requirements than eBay (i.e., a better than average credit report). This bipolar worldview within one company got confusing at times.
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I worked on the eBay side and was told by my eBay supervisor that PayPal fell under banking regulations.
Back when I worked as a helldesk jockey for a medical lab, I was told by my supervisor that the helpdesk PC's screensaver couldn't be changed because of HIPAA...
Just sayin', supervisors can say some dumb shit.
Thank you FCC (Score:5, Interesting)
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Lately the FCC seems to be the only competent part of the federal government.
Or the "World's government" - i am a Greek and i hope that the (USA's) Federal Communications Commission [fcc.gov] (F.C.C.) will (at least) try to save me from "PayPal's Forced Robocalls Plan...
I did not had any complain for PayPal until this advertising robocalls "plan" - if i receive any on my phone (voice or text message, something not rare in Greece, where we don't have USA's Federal law which requires an explicit opt-in to receive such messages) i will cancel my account, something i really would not like doing.
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I completely get not dealing with a company with policies you don't approve of, but unless it is a moral objection, it is a trivial one to bypass with technology.
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A GV phone number not forwarded to your number can only generate emails/text messages - you see one you want to deal with, you listen to the recorded message.
You are right but you have to check it - this is not a a way to simplify my life (o.k., i know, i ask too much, but i am a lazy Greek!).
I completely get not dealing with a company with policies you don't approve of, but unless it is a moral objection, it is a trivial one to bypass with technology.
It is less of a moral objection (althrough i had "escalated" the situation in some similar incidents because of moral objections) and more of a practical issue: if you read my agreement with the Greek bank and/or the Greek law it makes it clear that you are responsible to provide accurate personal info to, and respond to communication with, third parties (e.g., PayPal) - i
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Google Voice numbers aren't BS. For all paperwork and official communication, I give out my Google Voice number. Only friends and family get my cell phone number.
If it's really important enough, the caller will make it easy for me to call them back. If I can't call them back at a direct number, they're just shit out of luck.
Plus, audio interfaces for voicemail are terrible. It's vastly preferable for me to read a transcript, as I also have fairly severe hearing loss.
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Do you want the US to be the World Police or do you not?
Re:Thank you FCC (Score:4, Interesting)
Do you want the US to be the World Police or do you not?
I am a Greek NATIONALIST: i want the US to be the World Police - someone must do it, and History proved that they was (and still are) the bravest for the job... if not them, who?
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At least your are consistent. So many complain when the US does and then complain when the US doesn't. You are, at least, willing to hold a position. I, personally, would prefer a more active and efficient UN.
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At least your are consistent. So many complain when the US does and then complain when the US doesn't. You are, at least, willing to hold a position. I, personally, would prefer a more active and efficient UN.
I really appreciate your reply Sir, plus i respect you more because, even if you may disagree with me, you respect the fact that i try to be direct (i know i become boring and/or upset many with this "i am Greek...", but one reason i do it is out of "cultural honesty") - and i respect direct questions like the one you did (and i respect people who make direct questions AND answer their own questions as honest and brave men, like you did).
Re:Thank you FCC (Score:5, Interesting)
Lately the FCC seems to be the only competent part of the federal government.
"Rachel from Cardholder Services" would disagree with that assessment. How come the NSA can track every phone call, yet the FCC is too incompetent to find even the most egregious robo-callers?
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And the NSA's budget is probably (it's hard to tell because it's classified) at least thirty times that.
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demands the FCC not interfere with "the market"
BS. Show me one citation for any member of congress defending violations of the NDNC [wikipedia.org].
NDNC is one of the most popular laws ever passed by congress. For a few years, it was actually effective.
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"Rachel from Cardholder Services" would disagree with that assessment.
I thought the FCC *did* file a suit against Cardholder Services for that junk. What happened?
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Don't forget NOAA/NWS. Those folks really do save lives every day, unlike so many agencies claiming to do so.
Lawyerly bullshit .. (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, but PayPal is making the bullshit argument that continuing to use the service is opt-in.
Because PayPal is, and has always been, ran by assholes who don't give a shit about their users.
And when it can come down to "let us spam you or lose access to our service", they're just doing more of the same.
For some reason we've accepted that corporations can change the terms any time they want to, and claim to have implied consent because you didn't stop using it.
Which when you're talking about entity which might have your money or impact your livelihood, is a pretty douchebag move.
Which is exactly why I'll never deal with PayPal.
Re:Lawyerly bullshit .. (Score:5, Informative)
RTFA: "FCC requirements ban requiring a customer to consent to receive autodialed or prerecorded telemarketing or advertising calls as a condition of a purchase..."
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Yes, but PayPal is making the bullshit argument that continuing to use the service is opt-in.
It isn't?
For some reason we've accepted that corporations can change the terms any time they want to, and claim to have implied consent because you didn't stop using it.
I quit using AOL when I no longer liked their terms of service. When Microsoft announced that the XBone was going to require always on internet and a janky game sharing system, people threatened to not buy it. Similar situations have happened to Apple, Sony, Facebook, etc. Corporations can't just do whatever they want. If they alienate too many people, they lose $$$.
Which is exactly why I'll never deal with PayPal.
Free market in action.
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Somehow EULA's need to get reigned in.
Perhaps we need to fight fire with fire. Maybe start slipping a CEO's first born clauses into open source software, or other ridiculous things so that a few major corporations can find themselves signed up to make major donations to charity after their employees clicked through the latest update.
We are supposedly a country of rights and laws, but we have run out of times and places where those rights have not be superseded by some arbitration clause, or some automatic
Re:Lawyerly bullshit .. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, that used to be true.
Now you're a country of corporations, profits, and lawyers.
Since you can't afford to bribe the politicians as much as the corporations do, what you want doesn't matter.
Welcome to the dystopian future, now fully equipped with an oligarchy to ensure you get fucked in the process.
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America stopped having a "justice" system LONG ago...
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Well, that used to be true.
Oh really? When was there this mythical time period?
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I don't see that AC said it was the biggest problem the US has. AC definitely thinks it is a problem.
US religions are involved in inequality, environmental issues, government gridlock, and many other ills. Not all US religions or Christians are involved, but there's an unpleasantly large and vocal minority who are.
employees and officers forgot they're human first (Score:2)
I am incline to think it was started by assholes and that shaped the corporate culture into that of an asshole. So long after their departure, the company continue to act like assholes. At this point the only remedy is to nuke the company (with all hands) from orbit.
Is this for real? (Score:2)
Then people would be moving to competing services in droves and we would liven up the competition in this space.
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What competition? Any website you go to has creditcards and paypal. There is no other competition.
O rly [searchenginejournal.com]? And let's not ignore this looming 800 lb. gorilla [techcrunch.com], which I'm sure is ready to spring into the retail market soon.
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O rly [searchenginejournal.com]?
Those are not viable alternatives, since very few websites offer any of them as a form of payment.
Re: Is this for real? (Score:2)
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The Canadian divisions of the big online retailers are starting to catch up too. I ordered something off newegg.ca the other day and paid by Interac. It only took twenty years.
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until paypal runs their customers off... i am sure amazon services/ google/apple pay would benefit.
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The robo-calls were not for advertisements, they were for collections.
IE - you would get a robo-call saying your bank account was overdrawn and you owe Paypal $5000.
The only difference between what Paypal wants to do and what all other collection agencies do is if a human is on the other end of the phone.
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The robo-calls were not for advertisements, they were for collections.
IE - you would get a robo-call saying your bank account was overdrawn and you owe Paypal $5000.
The only difference between what Paypal wants to do and what all other collection agencies do is if a human is on the other end of the phone.
That's what PayPal claimed when the backlash against the new ToS began. But the ToS specifically included polls and telemarketing as their allowed use of robocalls. I cancelled both my PayPal and eBay (which has nearly identical terms of service) over this. I think they could probably eliminate most of the user backlash by removing the advertising clauses from their terms of service, notwithstanding any federal regulations that might still restrict their use of robocalls.
Amerika (Score:2, Informative)
And this is why you have regulators, so they stop dominant businesses from fucking you over. Now say thank you for the FCC.
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I'll be glad to - just as soon as they actually do something to stop it. For now they've just given Paypal's lawyers a polite notification of a potential upcoming gymnastics match.
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Wow. They saved us from one source of robocalls. Now how about all the other robocalls I get despite being on the do-not-call registry? Or about the sales calls weakly disguised as surveys? Or the push surveys that offer no opt-out that keep calling and calling until you complete them? Or how about protecting us from the carve-out for politicians so they can keep calling even though we don't want them to? Or how about stopping all the calls that use fake caller-id information?
Oh yea man, thanks so muc
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If paypal demanded I receive robo calls on my fucking phone line as part of their fucking service, as someone who has been completely happy with paypal up to that point, I'd drop them like the biggest fucking rock into the biggest fucking ocean with a large karploosh like someone taking a giant shit and flushing it down the fucking toliet.
Where would you go? you signed up with Paypal for a reason, what is the next best alternative?
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I liked being able to use my bank and accept paypal since people use it.
Instead, I'd just use my credit card directly for online purchases, subscriptions, and I'd only accept the main credit card companies for my payment gateway.
I think many sellers would see less business if they stop accepting Paypal -- I like paypal payments because I don't want to give out my credit card number to random people on the internet -even if my money is not at risk, credit card fraud is annoying to deal with (have to identify all of the fraudulent charges, update payment info for recurring charges, etc). There's a lot of smaller merchants that I just wouldn't buy from if I had to give them a CC number.
Is there a viable competitor to Paypal? Google an
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Again, the robo calls are not for ads or spam. They are so Paypal can do collections calls in an automated way.
Why is it every single post on the front page right now is talking about ads when that is not what this is about at all?
RTFA.
Re:I would drop them like a fucking rock (Score:5, Informative)
That is not true. Paypal's language uses collection calls as an example, but is written in such a way that they can robocall you for any reason or no reason.
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https://www.paypalobjects.com/webstatic/ua/pdf/US/ints/ua.pdf
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Your reaction probably isn't unique. Fortunately, the FCC is there to protect corporations like this from doing truly stupid things that would damage their market position.
Maybe the FCC could allow one of the many tried-to-challenge-Paypal companies to actually exist? Ha! I kid - they're there to ensure that the regulatory costs that Paypal never encountered as a startup make it too expensive to challenge them.
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What in the heck do you think the Federal COMMUNICATIONS Commission has to do with regulating a bank as a non-bank? I was under the impression that that is the FDIC's purview. As far as I know, PayPal and other such enterprises are also subject to the regulations of the individual states
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You have all these complaints, enough to be foul about it, and yet still utilize their services. We are to believe that this, something in addition to all your woes, is the straw that breaks your proverbial camel's back? I do not believe you.
Don't use PayPal and never will (Score:4, Informative)
Reason #1: they're unregulated
Reason #2: They have a demonstrated history of exploiting reason #1 (see www.paypalsucks.com for more information)
It just doesn't make sense to allow an organization like this to have any amount of access and/or control over your money.
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They can't legally do so.
What you agree to in a contract has to be reasonable, and a court of law decides that, not Paypal or whatever you agreed to.
Automatic inclusion of any and all future clauses is unreasonable.
In the EU, and it appears the US, robocalls are illegal without prior and explicit consent.
Just because a piece of paper, signed by you, with your knowledge, says something does not trump your rights. Statutory rights. Sound familiar?
It's a dirty move, but it's also a stupid - and unenforceable
Please, someone imlement this: (Score:5, Funny)
From TFA: "[Pay Pal's] general counsel, Louise Pentland, wrote in a blog post last week that its customers can choose not to receive autodialed or prerecorded message calls by contacting customer support."
So, could someone, please, build a system where anyone can fill out a web-from and it robo-calls PayPal support using text-to-speech. The call would go something like this.
This is to inform you that your customer. John. Smith. Is requesting not to receive automated phone calls.
The user name of. John. Smith. is. J. S. M. I. T. H. 1. 2. 3. He, or she, is requesting not to receive automated phone calls.
The reason that. John. Smith. has given is: Go. Fuck. Yourself.
Message repeats. This is to inform you that your customer. John. Smith. Is requesting not to receive automated phone calls.
The user name of. John. Smith. is. J. S. M. I. T. H. 1. 2. 3. He, or she, is requesting not to receive automated phone calls.
The reason that. John. Smith. has given is: Go. Fuck. Yourself.
Message repeats...
If the system is not able to reach customer support, then it could switch to Pentland's home number instead.
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That would be illegal.
As a mere single, non-corporate person, you're not allowed to hinder, harass, annoy, or otherwise aggravate or inconvenience or interfere in any fashion with a mighty, mighty, corporation or their rich owners, who are, after-all, your "leaders'" true masters and owners. Welcome to corporate (owned) America (TM) (C) ® (SM) (etc.) brought to you by Starphucks!®
On a related note, I've closed my eBay and PayPal accounts, since my account with each was the only reason for having
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Get in contact with PayPal customer support..bahahahahahah!
You could also get a hold of big foot and have him just beat them to death with a unicorn. My way is more plausible.
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From TFA: "[Pay Pal's] general counsel, Louise Pentland, wrote in a blog post last week that its customers can choose not to receive autodialed or prerecorded message calls by contacting customer support."
This is evil. The last time I tried contacting Pay Pal's customer support. I waited three hours on the line. And I wasn't even calling them as a consumer, I was calling them as a business that made them a lots of money. I can only imagine what's the actual wait time for an actual consumer of little value to them that wants to be taken off their robocall list.
In other news, PayandPaySomeMore adds a $10/mo fee (Score:2)
Monthly fee waived if you opt in to our robocall program and buy what's pitched there on a regular basis....
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canceling in 3... 2... 1.... (Score:3)
I'm self-employed and generally get paid through Paypal. If that means getting forced robocall ads, that will be the end of our relationship. This is not negotiable.
Paypal shouldn't ask (Score:2)
What could be an easier crime to track down? Electronic record of phone call? Solicitation of a financial transaction? Hundreds if
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The problem is that robocall services are hard to track down, and can easily change corporate identity. The FCC is much more effective against existing companies that can't run and can't hide.
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