Massachusetts "Right To Repair" Initiative On Ballot, May Override Compromise 238
skids writes "MA voters face a complex technical and economic question Tuesday about just how open automobile makers should be with their repair and diagnostic interfaces. A legislative compromise struck in July may not be strong enough for consumer's tastes. Proponents of the measure had joined opponents in asking voters to skip the question once the legislature, seeking to avoid legislation by ballot, struck the deal. Weeks before the election they have reversed course and are again urging voters to pass the measure. Now voters have to decide whether the differences between the ballot language and the new law are too hard on manufacturers, or essential consumer protections. At stake is a mandated standard for diagnostic channels in a significant market."
As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Insightful)
With this said, modern cars are designed to be off-limits for DIYers. This specific issue is about preventing locking down cars to the level that even independent mechanics can't touch them. So question should read "Do you believe that all cars, 2012 and newer should be only maintained at the dealer shops, or should independent shops have a way to do more than just change oil?"
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Insightful)
That seems a bit short sighted.
What about the classic enthusiasts coming up behind you, prehaps your children who might want to restore the car he remembers doing family holiday in from todays line up of cars?
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There are two kinds of classic enthusiats: the ones who work on their cars and the ones who write checks. If you work on your car, you want something pre-1996 anyway. If you write checks, you can write checks to the dealer.
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Re:I wish I could manufacture my own glass... (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.warmglass.com/making_your_own.htm [warmglass.com]
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no need to be an ass about it
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I think most of the guys writing checks would not flinch at $800.
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Only if you pay for full coverage and a low deductible.
If you have the money it is probably not worth buying that level of insurance.
On a more common car windshields are about $200 installed.
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move to Massachusetts, it's covered by comprehensive auto insurance (ie the minimal insurance required to register a car).
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Liability is the minimum generally.
I am only insured for damage to others and medical.
Why would I want to insure my $5k car?
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You don't have to have Comprehensive in Massachusetts. Liability coverage is all that is required.
The state minimums for Massachusetts drivers are as follows:
Part One: Bodily injury to othersâMinimum $20,000 per person, $40,000 per accident
Part Two: Personal injury protectionâPays up to $8,000 to you, passengers, pedestrians, or anyone you allow to drive your vehicle
Part Three: Bodily injury caused by an uninsured autoâMinimum $20,000 per person, $40,000 per
accident
Part Four: Damage to someon
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For some reason I thought it was comprehensive. My mistake.
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Move to Massachusetts, just in case your windshield cracks.
It wouldn't fit on the license plates.
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There was a towtruck in front of me. Their was a 1/2 brick in the middle of a interstate highway. His tire hit the 1/2 brick which then launched into the air, and luckily hit the passenger side corner of my windshield. At the time my only thoughts were "OMG I'm gonna die" no quick let me get his plate number so I can get his insurance to cover it. I'm glad I didn't have to pay out of pocket for it.
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Not in RI
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Insightful)
Evenutally you are going to get to the point where enthusiasts will need to decode the diagnostics codes to work on their own cars, maybe by then the codes will be well known, maybe they wont.
There is something else to consider here. At the moment the manufacturers are using security though obscurity, the codes may become well known especially 25 years after manufacture but if there is no law which says consumers have to be able to decode the diagnostics themselves. Whats to stop the manufacurers encrypting the codes, possibly on an ECU by ECU basis? The reader has to be networked to head office and request the decryption code for each customer vehicle at least one in order to work out whats wrong?
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But as time goes on, those purely mechanical vehicles will get rarer and rarer, to the point where not everyone is going to be able to afford one.
Which is exactly what we are going to see with general purpose computers, when Microsoft finally locks down the bootloader.
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:4, Interesting)
Two problems with aftermarket - size of the market and quality.
Size of the market is easy to explain, with ZERO interface standardization for any automotive part you have to consider how many potential customers are out there for an aftermarket part. Old civic tinted headlights? Tons to chose from. ECU for mid-90s luxury car - not so much.
Quality is also huge issue. Everything manufactured in China and is very, very cheaply made. Often times replacement parts fail quicker than used parts. Currently anyone doing work "for myself" uses used parts with some R&R.
Noticeable exception to above is when a specific part has a very high rate of failure for all cars on the road, and such failure does not kill the car outright. At this point someone in the US will setup small-scale manufacturing out of their own garage and make a living selling parts to fellow enthusiasts.
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Informative)
You do not have to use the ECU for that particular car. There are projects for aftermarket ECUs. http://www.megasquirt.info/ [megasquirt.info]
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure, now. Just like in '97, nobody would consider a '95 to be a 'classic car', just like in 1958 nobody considered the '57 Chevy to be a classic car.
In 2020, that ;00 will be looking pretty classic, but impossible to fix up because the communications interface and protocols will still be deep dark secrets.
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96 is the magic year not because it is more than 15 years old, but because you do not have to pass an OBDII emissions check.
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Strange...I've had a couple of cars now newer than '96 ('97 vette, and a 2005 turbo mx5)....and I've never had an odbii check nor any type of emissions check.
Ahh.....nice to live in states that aren't so restrictive about what you want to drive...
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But in another twenty years, that magic year may cease to be relevant. For example, if 99% of cars on the road at that point are zero-emissions, they may not bother with emissions tests for old cars any more. Or, possibly, they won't allow them on the road and people will only have them for private tracks.
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Interesting)
The only classic cars on the road in 2030 will be the ones that are classic and are on the road today.
Bullcrap (Score:5, Insightful)
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...Modern diagnostic computer systems should be standardized, so independent mechanics and hobby workers can still afford to work on them.
Bingo: that's what the proposed law is about.
Or, if not standardized, at least documented.
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For 90s-era cars current default mode of operation is that you replace with used or stock liquidation new part. You do not generally rebuild
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restoring electronics is much harder
More labor-intensive or more challenging for the not-so-technically-inclined shadetree mechanic-type?
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Informative)
Why? Because when you are dealing with old electronics you frequently have to deal with difficult to diagnose intermittent problems. You are dealing with aging sensors, degraded wiring, lose connections, out-of-spec electronics and there isn't memory dump or line-by-line debug to help you figure out what went wrong. With some of the harder problems you have to manufacture tools or methods to simulate test conditions.
Even 2013-model brand spanking-new car, using dealer's bells-and-whistles diagnostic system will not tell you faults outside of individual modules or sensors. Why? Because standard is remove and replace. Plus it won't tell you why this or that module or sensor is failing. Did wiring harness rot? Do you have lose connector somewhere? Is diagnostic system itself is failing? If problem doesn't happen that often during warranty period, then solving/detecting this problem isn't part of design.
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Well with old chrome parts you can shape a bit of sheet steel slowly and painful with hand tools in your garage, worst case and take it some place to have it chromed.
With plastic parts not so much. I work on a '85 Alfa Romero, you can improvise just about any metal part you need or find an after market manufacturer. Its the plastic bits that are terribly expensive and or difficult to find. Which is not say metal body parts are exactly cheap but you feel like you get something for the money.
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I can't find anyone willing to chromeplate things any more for love nor money, but I can get any plastic part I want from the local 3dprinter/lasercutter/vacuformer geek.
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And I know all too well about intermittent harness problems. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to restore a newer classic.
As my first job out of school was for an AC Delco reman shop I know all too well how poorly ECUs are designed and manufactured. I would gladly replace the ECU with on
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A Raspberry Pi would also last about 3 hot/cold cycles before it failed due to mechanical stresses of heating/cooling plus vibration under the hood. It also doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of being able to deal with the voltage spikes floating around under there.
Processing power isn't what makes an ECU expensive. Its not a PC with shitty lowest common denominator parts. ECUs must be somewhat hardy or they'll fail over night.
Just because you worked at a shop doesn't mean you know how it works, I k
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Seriously...While temperature is a factor I assure you ECUs are not that special when it comes to temp/vibration. There are dampeners added to the mount and permacoat waterproofing on the board itself (really expensive rubber cement) but the board has no special anti-vibration temperature surviving aspects other than the ICs are spec'ed to handle higher/lower temps. They come off the same line as the other ICs they just survived the higher/lower testing and thus received the special rating.
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The Feds have no business giving a fuck what's under the hood, just how much pollution comes out the exhaust and evaporative emission control systems!
The Feds want to be sure that you don't flip a switch right after you leave the testing station and don't turn your fully compliant engine into a pollution-spewing demon's ride.
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Funny)
A wrench should be good enough. After all, he's got the element of surprise.
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Oh to have mod points. Got a good laugh out of me at least.
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Just because a car has some chips in it doesn't mean they have to be locked down.
Re:As a classic car enthusiast... (Score:5, Informative)
This is what electronics-everything in your car mean for its longevity. 20 years if garaged is doable, anything more and you are running in weird issues like capacitors going bad in all kinds of imaginative way, spikes forming shorts on solder connections, and resistor degradation.
It is not IF, it is question of WHEN.
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That's kinda what the Right to Repair initiative is all about. The law could change the fact that they are if the initiative passes.
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Antique vehicles start at 1982 here in Texas (30 years). Cadillacs already had electronic diagnostic software by then (starting in 1979, I think). EFI on other GM vehicles wasn't far behind after the gas crisis. The venerable BMW E30 has had it's computer well mapped, but it's very primitive compared to what is going in to cars now. A ten year old 750i is only worth about $1200, nobody is going to pay a BMW dealership at dealership rates to diagnose it in twenty more years.
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$1200? I think you left off a zero, or I should just buy 10 of them.
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If you don't wrench, you can't keep it on the road.
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To be clear, you are telling me I can get a 2002 750i for $1200.
Which means I can get any parts I need for another $1200, since I could just buy another one for spare parts.
I think I found my next toy if that is true.
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His claim was 10 years old, those are more like 20 years old.
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We could really use a car analogy about now.
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Are these codes not available on the internet?
I would assume someone would buy them and then post them.
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Off-limits? I wandered off-limits when I changed the timing-belt in my wife's car and installed new brake discs and oxygen sensors in mine?
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Vehicle diagnostics should be wide open! (Score:4, Insightful)
Something's wrong when I have to dedicate a laptop, play $350 for a special cord and software, and teach my self this software just to 'adapt' my VW's throttle body?
BMW drivers have it even worst!
Federal legislative language should read that EVERY manufacturer that wants to sell cars in the US must allow owners to look at and function every aspect of their own car without special dealer tools.
Copyright forever and a day (Score:3)
Why should you have the right to do maintenance on a car that you probably do not own outright?
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/10/29/supreme-court-grapples-with-copyright-law-and-the-resale-trade/ [wsj.com]
Why stop at cars??? (Score:3, Interesting)
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I would agree. This sounds like extortion.
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Don't you listen to Car Talk? (Score:2)
Just put electrical tape over the light.
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Pop the ROMs and see if you can find the password in them. (You may need a heat gun to do that though...)
don't get it (Score:4, Informative)
I'm a MA voter. I read the law. It sounds like the data needs to be made available in a standardized and un-encrypted way for all future cars. If you have all ready conceded to making the info available, what is the problem in doing it in a non-proprietary way?
That was a rhetorical question. I'm voting yes.
Whatever (Score:2)
Not like CA's "lemon law" at all, is it? (Score:3)
With a title like "Right to Repair", I thought I was going to be reading about another state trying to duplicate the purpose of California's so-called "Lemon Law", which literally is a 7-year right-to-repair mandate not just for automobiles but all mass-produced consumer goods with a cost over $100. In California, thus, manufacturers are obligated to make available the parts and documentation necessary to keep a product in service for no less than seven years.
This Massachusetts proposal seems to be a lot more limited and specific to vehicles.
Re:Not like CA's "lemon law" at all, is it? (Score:4, Informative)
It's not like CA's lemon law, it's even more important. This is about having the keys to your own car's diagnostic data, sometimes fairly literally as you can't even get the data out (let alone understand it) without doing weird things to the PCM.
Re:Not like CA's "lemon law" at all, is it? (Score:4, Interesting)
They serve two completely different purposes, then. California's law was about thwarting or reducing the impact of planned obsolescence, but it didn't mandate that consumers have direct control over the repair process; third parties were presumed to be involved. While this law is also about restoring more control from the manufacturers to the alleged owners of vehicles (only), it's not so much about planned obsolescence.
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Sounds right to me. In addition, MA also has a "Lemon Law". I don't think ours is so much about planned obselecnese as simple consumer purchase protection. That is... a consumer may cancel a sale if the person who sold it to him doesn't honor what ammounts to a mandatory 90 day warrantee. (with a $100 max deductable... and the option to, to buy back the vehicle instead of repairing it)
It appears to apply to private sales too, but, in the case of private sales only applies to finding problems with the vehicl
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SCOTUS ahead...fair use and property rights (Score:4, Interesting)
VW upgraded my new car's diagnostics software. ALL shift points, RPM ranges and throttle positions changed resulting in a new car that drives nicely like an olde lady would expect. So radical was this upgrade that it changed the handling and performance of the vehicle to something I would never buy.
VW have refused to re-install OEM software back to the new car fitment. So MA are onto the NEXT contentious issue for consumers paying $$$ hundreds of dollars monthly for product they have absolutely no control except paying rents to manufacturers
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There is no reason to use a manual transmission on a car built in 2012. Modern automatic transmissions (especially on German made cars) are absurdly good, the car is better at deciding when to shift than you are.
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So your claim is it will downshift when going down a steep grade to allow for engine braking?
It will also shift down right before going up a hill? How do they manage that one?
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I pull over to make phone calls. If it was that important they would pay for a taxi ride.
Computer needed to change headlamp on 07 Dodge (Score:4, Interesting)
I run my familys NAPA AutoCare center and this year we had a 2007 Dodge Caliber come in with a customer complaint of one headlight not working.... Even after replacing the bulb.
Only one of my techs knew that the TIPM module had to have the circuit reset with our $4,000 + Snap on scanner.
Yes I have read that you can do something with the battery cables and I am also aware of reasons not to do this... At the end of the day, a computer was needed to change the headlight on this particular vehicle.. Kind of insane..
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All you need to do is pull the negative battery cable and the onboard systems will reset. You'll lose the radio programming, and any other onboard counters (like oil or tire pressure) will be reset.
It's a PITA, but we've been doing that on oil changes for decades now. If you change your own oil, you'll need to swing by Advance or Autozone (or NAPA for their "know how") to get the "Maint Reqd" light to go off.
Or just pull the battery cables.
Didn't IBM resolve this? (Score:4, Interesting)
I made a good living servicing Selectric typewriters back in the 90s and uo to about 2002, entirely due to the court decision that forced IBM to permit independent servicers to purchase manuals, tools, and parts. And a little mechanical aptitude. Untimately it was about product owners being able to fix their own stuff, and engage whoever they wanted to. This decision had effects in other industries.
At the least, car manufacturers should be required to publish the specs for the diagnostic interfaces, and then sell the manuals (reasonable price was part of the IBM decision, IIRC) and let us service what we do in fact own. If they are claiming that the software is licensed, not sold, we need to have that fight.
FWIW, I drive a 1998 Saab 900 SET Convertible. What a fun car. If you hose up the top, for instance repositioning any of the potentiometers that feed back position data to the computer, you will be going back to the dealer or someone who purchased the very expensive Tech II tool, which is not just an OBD2 reader, but interfaces with various onboard computers and make settings etc. I've done some terrible things to the top so far, and no need to reprogram, but that's just because I was warned in advance. My local dealer gave me the radio code when I had the battery replaced - they didn't have to do that for free, but they did. I'm pretty interested in this, since I prefer to buy beaters, and soon there will be no such thing, just high-mileage cars that need trips to the dealer to solve specific onboard computer problems.And there will be more, not less. problems with this. Despite major improvements, I don't see these onboard computers getting that much better, and the automobile is a terrible environment for anything like that. With Saabs, the 9000 was notorious for problems figuring out just which computer was causing the error, and the TCS system would put you in limp mode at the drop of a hat. Perfectly good car, just the computer choosing to be broken. ABS, climate control, seats, top, etc, there are 7 computers I know of in the 1998 Saab 900, not counting ther SID and cruise control...
And Saabs, of course, are orphaned. Why would they withold info if there is no more business to protect? Mine can suffer any number of problems and that's the end of it, no part to fix it with. Windshield moldings seem to be gone now, so you use generic rubber. Parts for the top are becoming terribly precious.
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The IBM consent decree (1956) was a corrective action taken because of a classic anti-trust violation. IBM was using it's dominance in one area (making tabulating machines) to get an unfair advantage in another area (servicing tabulating machines). Note that this decision did not spell the end of IBM. Instead of charging high rates for service, they switched to charging higher prices for the machine itself.
The same thing will happen here. As soon as there is a law requiring manufacturers to open up thei
Reality of industry and information. (Score:3, Interesting)
As a mechanic (some time...) that specializes in electrical / electronic / computer issues, here are some thoughts:
The meaning of "non discrimnatory price", as used in the ballot question will be tied up in lawsuits for years. I can tell you that most of the independent shops out there *CAN NOT* afford to buy Factory Diagnostic Software or Hardware, as a business matter, for more than one or two oem's. Now, granted a lot of this stuff is available via piracy...
Now, if a shop does a lot of one particular make, then yes, it will invest in the "official" factory diagnostic equipment.
Just to give you an idea:
Early 1990's to current Ford Motor Company brand vehicles: Ford IDS (software) / (VCM) hardware combo. price aprox $3,000.
Circa 1980 to early 1990's Ford brand vehicles: Ford / Hickok "NGS" (price aprox $700 on ebay) (antiquated, but highest PID update rate on these vehicles)
And, it's even worse for the independent heavy truck repair shops out there:
(purchase cost + subscription, does not count the specialized interface hardware)
Caterpillar ET software: $1,200.
Cummins Insite software: $1,200.
Detroit Diesel software: $1,800.
Thats the most expensive, but there are a lot of other systems on heavy trucks are computerized too, and take additional expensive propritary software packages to diagnose and service.
For anyone out there who thinks the most expensive diagnostic equipment from Snap-On or OTC is equal to factory, You're wrong. Even the most expensive aftermarket diagnostic equipment out there, has functionality gaps compared to the OEM stuff.
FYI: Now your "average" shop around the corner is usually running a mid range scanner (~$3,000.) taht can do most of the things a mechanic actually needs day in day out. But when you get some whiz-bang software / electrical / electromechanical issue, you get the wrong diagnosis and ineffective / expensive repair. If you have a good honest mechanic, He'll tell you he's limited and suggest a dealership performed service. It's not ideal, but it's having integrity.
Now as a computer / software hobbyist:
Even If I want to code up my own GPL'd diagnostic software, I am limited as to the diagnostic and special test functions that I can implement.
Standard OBDII functions, no problem, It's a semi open standard promulgated by SAE. J1939 standard functionality for heavy trucks, no problem again, another semi open standard promulgated by SAE.
Now lets say i want to implement a standard cylinder contribution test (standard diagnostic test you run all the time). Much more difficult. In today's world You have to license (directly or indirectly) the proprietary protocol info from each manufacturer (under very restrictive terms) you want to implement code for. So that pretty much, kills that.
If you were really hard core about implementing open diagnostic software that could do all (are some sub-set of) the propritary functions for a particular vehicle / engine manufacturer, then you're looking at some serious embedded hw/sw reverse engineering. And,in many cases prior to the mid 1990's, you have multiple proprietary protocols within a given manufacturer / model / year / controller range. That said, there was code and protocol reuse, but... That's why the "open" diagnostic software out there today just doesn't do the specialized stuff. Yet, anyway...
OBD II (Score:3, Informative)
I'm an old-car junkie. I have none right now, but I have in the past. I spent 3 years as a mechanic for the USAF, and I've wrenched on every car I've had to some extent or another. My last car was OBD I, it blinked, like Capt Pike, to tell you things.
Now I have an OBD II car. The amount of data it captures is remarkable. One would need a sizable battery of old-school analytical tools to match what OBD II gives you for free. You just need to pay a little for the scanner.
For today's car, you need an OBD II reader with freeze-frame capability. Less than 100 bucks. Or, you can get a wi-fi OBD II dongle, and use one of the multitude of scanners and realtime dataloggers for a variety of platforms, iOS and PC included.
Hearing all the whining about how modern cars are not for the shadetree mechanic makes me wince. All it tells me is that people are unwilling to adapt, change and learn new tricks.
I've used a 90 dollar OBD II scanner, a forum and the car's Factory Service Manual to diagnose and conclusively repair the two Check Engine Lights I've had. I tracked both down to dirty solenoid connectors. Why were they dirty and grimy? Long story, but the source of this trouble has been vigorously flogged, and they've lost my business forever.
The language in TFA is weird. What exactly is this info that makers are allegedly holding back? If by "holding back" they mean spend the $120 on the factory service manual, then don't be such a cheapskate and pony up the dosh. I have the FSM for my car. The real FSM, not some Haynes or Chilton wannabe. Every single code my car uses is in there, and I can read them all with a 90 dollar OBD II scanner with freeze-frame. For some of the more exotic things you need a datalogger that records OBD II data realtime. Like I said above, lots to choose from for multiple platforms.
The info is available, you just have to pay for it. Is that so much of a burden?
Mechanics of old had to keep a battery of test equipment (ignition testers, tach/dwell meters, exhaust analyzers, etc) and had to keep up-to-date reference material, all of which cost money. Why should today's mechanics be any different? What, you want the car's codes for free? Na. You need to shell out the $$$ to get the factory service manual. You've always had to.
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Er, the problem is most (all?) car manufactures use proprietary codes apart from the standard ODB II's standardized diagnostic trouble codes. Some are very useful, like enabling sport mode, or setting the RPM ranges for gear shifting. Some people have found these through trial and errors, some are yet to be found. The manufactures should publish these. If it is a feature on my car, I need to know about it.
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The problem you will run into with this approach is that OBD-II only defines a minimum standard of telemetry data that is available at the port.
Manufacturers are free to add to that minimal dataset in any way they wish, using any type of encoding or obscurity to hide their meaning.
The minimal set of OBD-II diagnostic codes is pretty useless for determining what ails your vehicle. You might get an evap leak error, but that only tells you there is a leak in your evap system. The manufacturer extended codes wi
Apple (Score:3)
Apple should be paying close attention to this. One day, people will demand "right to repair" for thier iDevice and Apple will be sitting where the car manufacturers are today...
Re:Owners shouldn't work on their cars (Score:5, Insightful)
Specialized tools are necessary for service work
This does not count as a "necessary" specialization of a tool:
If manufacturers must limit themselves to open, standardized interfaces they will be slower in achieving greater emissions and fuel efficiency.
[Citation needed]
It's time to accept the fact that the priority must be emissions and efficiency and not owner's liberty
Therefore, we should ensure that only mechanics who pay the maker of the car a monthly fee can perform repairs!
There is a logical step missing from your argument...
Re:Owners shouldn't work on their cars (Score:5, Informative)
I agree--grand parent's assertion of "standardized interfaces they will be slower in achieving greater emissions and fuel efficiency" is complete bullshit. Citation needed like never fucking before.
I know cars and I like modern cars. I don't do well with carburetors. Give me a fuel-injected, electronically controlled system all day long. Give me a modern ECU that will automatically adjust for barometric pressure and ambient temperature. Give me an ECU that will give me good fuel efficiency and emissions. I race my car, but I do not remove my catalytic converter.
They don't want to expose the dealer interface for reprogramming a car's mileage, VIN inside the ECU or new keys w/o having the two existing keys. That's the entire extent of the security concern with the exposure of this information.
Otherwise, if my car is malfunctioning and I want to diagnose why it's not running right, I am all too often hampered or screwed without the dealer tools.
Simple example first: my car developed a knock in a cylinder. To find out whether it's a valve or a rod bearing or piston-slap, I have only one option: disconnect the ignition connector and the fuel connector, start the car, shut it off, etc repeat for each cylinder. However, the dealer can simply go into a menu and trigger an ON_1/OFF_1 (from 1 to 4) for each cylinder, doing the same thing electronically, faster and safer.
Complex scenario: diagnosing catalytic converter failure (which is very emissions relevant!) If the car is running rough or is down on power, especially top-end power, it's possible that this might be caused by a catalytic converter. However, many other things could also be wrong to cause this. The best you gonna do as a DIYer right now (for a 2004+ Mazda, in my case) is to wait until the computer throws a check engine light complaining of cat converter inefficiency. However, your situation might be right on the threshold of the rather-generous factory allowance for catalytic converter performance. The dealer can simply pull up a page of emission stats the the car tracks, which lists catalytic converter efficiency. If it's near the bottom of the range, especially for a car with lower mileage, then you have a dying converter. You can monitor this setting over time as well (E.g. over two weeks) and see if it degrades. Having access to this information can save you non-trivial dollars in gas mileage (e.g. highway can drop from 30mpg to 24mpg easily), fouled up spark plugs and (albeit small) risk of engine damage. Since most modern cars run spark plugs capable of long term replacement intervals, such as 60K miles, you risk fouling up an expensive set of plugs.
This is the simple stuff too. Troubleshooting your ABS system? You get nothing other than an ABS light. Could it be a tear in wiring to an ABS sensor? If you are crafty, you can solder that up cleanly yourself for pennies. Could it be air in the brake lines that got into the ABS module? Bleed the air for the cost of a half liter of brake fluid ($10). If a wheel speed sensor shat the bed, that's a $75 repair. If the ABS module shat the bed, well that's much more expensive. Going to the dealer to find out what the ABS light is all about? You will get slapped with a $90 (1 hr labor) diagnostic fee. As a car enthusiast and an engineer, I don't like paying $90 for 5 minutes of diagnostics. What if you go to your local repair shop for the same problem? If they can't read the ABS code, they will have to spend time going down the list of possible things that could go wrong. E.g. all 4 wheel sensors and wiring would have to be inspected (hope the tear is not obvious or not a failed wire inside a connector, where it's not visible!), brakes bled just in case, parts possibly replaced unnecessarily (on a hunch for a common problem). The pure waste in labor that an independent shop has to do wastes the shop's time and your money.
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No one says they have to limit themselves to those interfaces. They can just provide the specs and documentation. They have to this information already requiring they make it public is not a huge stretch.
You are just being a nutcase.
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Specalized tools are necessary to remove half of the front end and 1/3 of the engine to change the frickin' oil.
Feeding the troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Specialized tools are necessary for service work.
This is not true for a great deal of maintenance. Furthermore specialized tools are often not necessary if the parts are designed sensibly. Often the manufacturer has a choice when designing it and using a specialized tool when one is not needed is an attempt at lock in. Encouraging lock in and short-cut design is a bad idea always.
If manufacturers must limit themselves to open, standardized interfaces they will be slower in achieving greater emissions and fuel efficiency.
The logic of that does not compute. A well designed interface can greatly speed achievement of emissions and fuel efficiency standards. Standard tooling, electrical interfaces, etc can greatly reduce cost, complexity and allow engineers to focus efforts on more productive pursuits. Reinventing interfaces because of Not-Invented-Here is frankly rather stupid. Arguably using closed proprietary interfaces slows development rather than speeding it up in many cases.
Just saying what you lefties would say if you had the balls.
Ahh, I get it. You are a troll. My bad for feeding you...
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Almost had me there. As is the norm, I started banging out a response before reading everything, such as the last line.
If the measure of Sarcasm is that you can't tell it from the real thing, then you are brilliant!
Bravo!
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Six people so far who didn't read the whole post.
ROFLMAO!
And I bet the Mods didn't either.
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If manufacturers must limit themselves to open, standardized interfaces they will be slower in achieving greater emissions and fuel efficiency.
Just saying what you lefties would say if you had the balls.
Oh, so you are lying because you think that's funny. Got it.
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This is about getting error codes not tools. There's this diagnostics device you can buy at Autozone. You plug it in to the outlet under the dash, and start your car. It spits out an error code, and if you're lucky it spits out the problem, if you're lucky. More often than not that problem is something like a Oxygen Sensor. Something which takes 5 minutes to replace, and requires little or no tools, as it just clips onto a wire harness, and into the air filter. Cars (other than hybrids) haven't chang
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I agree with this. Many of the tasks affected by the law are easy ones -- if you can figure out that they need to be done.
The most common engine repair is replacing a bad O2 sensor -- accounting for over 9% of all engine repairs. That's an easy fix, but increasingly these days requires a specialized tool for no purpose other than making the job hard for a DIY'er. Also accounting for over 9% of engine repairs is a bad seal on fuel filler caps, which cause the "check engine" light to go on. Fixing that is s
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Auto manufacturers would love to put the independents out of business. Even better if they can legislate them away. "All your repair bucks are belong to us!"
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Egads. You say 'big business doesn't give a rat's ass about emissions', then you say all they care about is what they are legally required to do. Well, guess what? Vehicle manufacturers are legally required to care about emissions! They have to make sure that their vehicles are compliant when they are built, and they are required by federal law to provide warrantee service on emissions devices. So yes, they do very much care about emissions, and they certainly care very much about some putz 'tweaking'
Re:Don't Panic! (Score:5, Informative)
"See, the Supreme Court just held up that "first sale" doesn't count if the *thing* was intended to be sold to a segregated market"
NO they didn't. They just heard the arguments. A conclusion isn't expected for several months. Stop glancing at articles and actually read them.
never own your vehicle = they have to cover all (Score:2)
never own your vehicle = they have to cover all repair costs maybe even laws covering rented cars will be in there as well.
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Not really, no. A state could pass a law making it explicitly illegal to sell or rent a car that does not have full disclosure in place (with exceptions in place for individual owners). I suspect the disclosures would be forthcoming.
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There is no state law preventing you from working on your car in your driveway. If there was then I know people who break it all the time, myself included. Their may be some town ordinances, but those are rare.
That said this is NOT about you fixing your car in the driveway. This is about giving local repair shops the information they need to repair your car. Dealer charge $65/hr local places usually around $45/hr. If the local guy can't fix it then you're strung up for another $20/hr.
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Doesn't that state also have a bunch of local ordinances that prohibit working on your car in your driveway or parked on the street?
-jcr
Nope. Not as far as I know.
This is the first I've ever heard of that and I've lived in Massachusetts all my life. I've worked on my car in the street with no complaints, and see others do it all the time. I don't see how you could ban *all* working on cars. If you've got a flat tire or a bad headlight, what would you be supposed to do? I could understand some communities banning oil changing on the street given the convenient storm drains for illegally dumping your waste oil, but I don't know of any that h
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I've never been busted for working on my car in the street in the People's Republic of Cambridge. In much of middle America your neighborhood owner's association is going to have rules against this; fortunately in a city if you don't live in a condo the only rules are set by people you can vote against if you disagree with them.