US DOJ Says Kindle In Classroom Hurts Blind Students 492
angry tapir writes "Three US universities will stop promoting the use of Amazon.com's Kindle DX e-book reader in classrooms after complaints that the device doesn't give blind students equal access to information. Settlements with Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Pace University in New York City and Reed College in Portland, Oregon, were announced Wednesday by the US Department of Justice. The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind had complained that use of the Kindle devices discriminates against students with vision problems."
Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope sorry, no idea. Still I'm sure The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind are patting themselves on the back for holding back the majority of students while in no way impacting any partially sighted or blind student in any way what-so-ever. Good for them!
[1]: I have partial sight in my right eye due to several holes in my retina, one of which is directly in the center of my vision.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have this notion that electronic copies of books might even be more accessible, as there is no need to do any OCR; I guess if the students in question are already used to using some system that isn't compatible...
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
None of the university e-books have text-to-speech enabled for them, in order to preserve the jobs of human text to speech convertors.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Interesting)
Harrison Bergeron's world [wikipedia.org], are we there yet?
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I was going to make the Harrison Bergeron comment too - you beat me to it.
Next up: Mandatory headphones with gunshots going off in the ears of intelligent students to avoid discriminating the stupid.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
exactly, see here!
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/02/28/0127236/Amazon-Caves-On-Kindle-2-Text-To-Speech [slashdot.org]
The DOJ didn't exactly stick up for Amazon when they enabled text-to-speech by default for all Kindle books.... Now they claim they can't use them because it's "unfair" to blind people.... Blind people can't read EVERY book without help.... kindle make it cheaper for the rest of us to have materials. There are SPECIAL programs and credits to convert material for blind people that schools are supposed to offer... not turn off stuff for the rest of us!!
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nonsense (Score:5, Informative)
You didn't read the FA. The complaint is that the navigation menus etc are not included in the text-to-speech converter.
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I would think it would be easier to make a book that does Braille than it was to do eInk. Such a device would not have as good battery life as an eInk device, but should able to take a digital text, and instantly make a Braille text out of it.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Funny)
When I was at university, these were called professors. I kid you not. I had more than 1 professor who simply read to us from the textbook. They couldn't have taught a rock to just sit there, but they brought in the grant money, so they stayed.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Same. I don't understand what the fuck these people are thinking. I'm "legally" blind and the Kindle is great because you can set the text size. You can't do that with a book. And for fully blind people, wouldn't it be easier, rather than harder, to pipe digital text to a braille reader?
This (again, as someone who is legally blind) is just stupid people being stupid.
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I mean, for crying out loud, the Kindle has a text-to-speech reader built in. How many books have that?
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Funny)
As far as I can tell, the only way a Kindle can hurt a blind person in the classroom is if somebody throws one at his head.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Funny)
(sorry)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Professors commonly use materials in class that aren't available in braille form.
But this might be because classes are normally small and I never had a blind person in my class in 4 years...
Maybe there aren't that many blind people at public universities, and dumbing down education for everyone just to make things more convenient for a small fraction of the population, is unreasonable?
I can think of a lot of accomadations that are more reasonable than globally restricting the medium that may be used in classrooms.
If the kindle is to be banned on this basis, then this must apply to other eBook readers too, and other electronic media, such as the use of web/internet-based sites as resources.
Sorry folks, all professors with a "class web page" must now turn these off, since blind and quadroplegic folken can't surf the web anyways.
No actual art can be displayed in 'visual arts appreciation class', to ensure blind people have a fair shot at an A.
And... also, no actual music will be allowed in music appreciation class, to ensure equal access by deaf people.
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I am aware of the hollering, but as yet, from what I read, there is no court decision backing that up, and Amazon still has it enabled on most books. (Its now supposidly up to the publishers). Also hacks have already been leaked on how to turn it on even if the publisher disables it.
But doesn't that just make this another Vindictive Disabled advocacy stunt aided and abetted by the Federal Government?
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The center of vision is called that way because this is where the highest concentration of vision cells (called cones) are located on the retina. If he has a hole in that portion of the retina, moving the retina around in his eyes would not help much, if at all. It just means most of his vision cells are simply shot.
In addition what counts is the connectivity of these cells to the vision center of the brain, which his all the way in the back of the head. Simply adding more cells there would do nothing. One
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Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
books company didn't stop releasing books in braille after the kindle release, blind student still can buy them.
How is it a unfair advantage ? I should always wear something that cover my eyes because it's unfair for them if I can see with my two eyes ?
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Informative)
Sure it can [wikipedia.org]. Maybe The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind should get off their asses and sponsor it.
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not really, e-books can be published in Kindle format and read into more compatible readers. If somebody make a cost effective one, Amazon would probably allow Kindle books on it (should the COPYRIGHT holders agree.. the ones who disable text-to-speech to charge blind kids MORE in the first place)
It's not Amazon's problem Kindle isn't perfect for all students. Colleges and Publishers have complete control to make the books available in formats Blind can access. It requires more PLANNING and things like da
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, books can be typed in braille, the kindle cannot... The issue might be that with a kindle, the e-books are very accessible compared to your standard book (probably cheaper?). Maybe the organization thinks it's an unfair advantage?
1: Sure e-books can be put into "braille". There are even a plethora of devices that'll do it, or just read teh darn thing aloud.
2: Braille books are EXPENSIVE. They have a far smaller audience, need thicker paper, usually can use only one side of the paper... and can't be printed out on the same equipment as everyone else's books.
Given those two, the association at play should demand GREATER adoption of e-books -- it's a printed book that the blind cannot read, not a properly formatted e-book
Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:5, Informative)
I know no one reads the articles, as that would get in the way of the knee-jerking we all love to do. But the article makes it quite clear: the kindle includes a text-to-speech application, but no way for visually impaired folks to navigate. Therefore, the Kindle is not the right choice of e-book reader for institutions such as colleges and universities to promote. It is the Kindle that is unusable by the blind, not the e-books themselves.
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:5, Interesting)
But yet the fact remains it is currently *more* accessible to the disabled than a regular textbook. So let's not have an improvement because we should hold out for an even better improvement?
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it isn't more accessible. Without navigation, it is completely inaccessible. But the fix is very easy: tie the user interface into the text-to speech application that already exists on the device. This publicity will ensure that happens in a very timely fashion.
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so with a book a blind person feel until they are at the edge of the page qnd tunrn the page. With the Kindal, they feel there way to the button on the edge of the page and push it.
Jeez, they're blind, not stupid. However most group di\esigned to protect soneone often thing\ks the poeple they are protecting are idiots. See GLAAD
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Yeah, that's so much better than issuing a simple patch to let the text to speech application read the navigation out loud.
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Because the kindle can be made accessible to the visually impaired with the simple fix of letting the text-to-speech reader that is already included read the damn interface. How much are you willing to bet that, thanks to this publicity, the Kindle will include such functionality in the near future? It's a win for everyone. The blind get a device that lets them enjoy books easily. Amazon gets a bigger market. Other manufacturers of e-book readers get free market advice, and can ensure their readers ship wit
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, books can be typed in braille, the kindle cannot...
You aren't typing a fucking kindle. Sorry but this kind of bullshit is nonsense. If you have a blind student, print out a one-off Braille book.
You could probably print blind books for every damned blind student in the US for the next hundred years with the money that was wasted on even investigating this whole thing.
Lowest Common Denominator mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you can have it and I can't I'll sue" - Pretty soon kids are lucky to have access to food and clothing, let alone an education. It's a losing strategy compared to say innovating and catering to diversity. Why can't they lobby for an ebook reader that does cater to the blind. Perhaps popup braile? Instead of wasting effort sending all your kids minds back to the stone age. Doesn't have to be a Kindle either. Leave the brand names out of it.
Canadian Healthcare like this too (Score:3, Insightful)
It is illegal for a resident of Canada covered by Canadian health care (say, a citizen, or landed immigrant) to pay for health care, and illegal for a health care provider to charge if they are in the "voluntary" system (which covers 99%+ of the population who can not legally pay anyway) which effectively forces almost all providers to be "in" the system. (There are specialty private clinics catering to non-citizen athletes, etc.)
This is similar to the socialized medicine systems in Cuba and North Korea (bu
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And you clearly cannot spell. Perhaps we should drink until we are brain damaged :)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Is there a law that says devices of this sort must have equal access for handicapped users?
I'm deaf. When I go to movies, I get only half of the experience of "normal" viewers because I don't get the dialog. Should I sue the producers and the theater chains because they don't caption movies for me? No. I simply wait until it comes out on DVD and watch it on my TV, with captioning enabled.
It sucks for blind people, in general. Granted, the Kindle doesn't help them. However, they've no business taking it out on the Kindle or universities that find it a useful tool. Adapt. It's what we do.
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yes you should. they should be able to provide you a device to give you captions for the duration of the movie. its the cost of doing business like handicap signs and wheelchair accessible entry locations.
this is not an inconvenience that 0.1% of the population are hoisting on 99.9% of the population. This is a necessary affirmation that the majority will take care of the minority when the minority needs help to function in society. it is a recognition that we do not leave people behind just because they ar
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"it is a recognition that we do not leave people behind"
unless they are poor
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What about blind people who cannot speak? Personally, I don't think universities should be allowed to encourage devices except to the lowest common denominator: Helen Keller.
The solution becomes clear, then, and it's the Braille machine used by Whistler in the movie Sneakers [urbanhonking.com]. This, of course, is a completely different device as opposed to a variant of a viable e-book reader the rest of us use but with additional features. Therefore, this device is the only that should be allowed, and we bitches with all
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There are already provisions to provide audio or braille versions of books for blind kids. The Kindle's book licences, not so much. The devices are supposed to have built-in TTS but there's a strong pressure from the books-on-tape industry to hobble it.
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Think about it. Audible, publishers, authors who sell the "audio performance" rights of their book separately from the printed rights, performers, publishers, there's a whole food chain making money off of books on tape, and its probably been a growth industry since the iPod, which makes it easier to stop/start/carry around a book on tape, plus downloading them is much more convenient than a whole stack of CDs or having to rip them to the PC.
I see their point, a bit, but I would challenge the books on tape
Shhhhh (Score:5, Insightful)
You're talking COMMON SENSE there. If you're not careful, the agents of PC and Government interference will show up and arrest you.
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Braille? It seems like the Kindle could support the blind with a few modifications instead of going down the route of "if we can't use it then no one can."
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple: by forcing Amazon to come out with a new device that caters more to their needs, 0.3% of the population [center4research.org] (~1 million blind vs 300 million Americans) forces the other 99.7% of the population to pay for all the hardware and software advances required for them to use the device.
Completely fair IMHO
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Kindle lacks navigation for visually impaired (Score:5, Informative)
The problem isn't e-books or readers per-se. The Kindle even includes a text to speech application. But the Kindle lacks a way for visually impaired readers to navigate, and so, it is absolutely useless as it is. All that needs to be done is to tie the user interface into the text to speech application. That's it. Until that very, very simple problem is solved, colleges and universities are correct not to promote the use of this device. A good bit of publicity early on will ensure that all e-book readers in the future have this simple feature.
Re:Kindle lacks navigation for visually impaired (Score:5, Informative)
Amazon.com is making changes to the Kindle to make it more accessible to blind people, a spokesman there said. The Kindle team is working on an audio-based menu system, and the devices will have a super-size font added, Amazon said in a press release. Those new features are due out by mid-2010, the company said.
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how about provide a braille e-book reader? If somebody made one Amazon would probably support it.
like this? http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/04/17/braille-e-book/ [yankodesign.com]
or this? http://gadgets.softpedia.com/news/Electronic-Braille-Reader-Helps-The-Blind-Surf-The-Internet-2492-01.html [softpedia.com]
or this? http://www.humanware.com/en-usa/products/blindness/deafblind_communicator/_details/id_118/deafblind_communicator.html [humanware.com]
or this? http://www.gizmag.com/go/5876/ [gizmag.com]
The tech is almost there, perhaps the DOJ would front some MONEY to Am
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Textbooks come in braille format. A simple software patch would allow visually impaired people to use the Kindle. That would be a win for everyone. Why NOT do it?
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I've had to say, 'Way to completely miss the point' dozens of times now. Even after explaining it in simple language, you don't get it. It's like you people can't even read. Go back and read what I wrote again, thankfully, I'm not required by Federal law to cater to stupid people.
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Sorry to be mean, but you were the metaphorical straw on the camel's back.
The fact that regular books are inaccessible to the blind is beside the point. e-books don't need to be. The Kindle has a text to speech converter. And a speaker, obviously. All they need to do is provide a patch to let the Kindle read the list of books on the device. That's it.
And the fact is, nobody is preventing anyone from buying a Kindle. Three universities have stopped promoting it as an alternative to regular books (which, by l
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Informative)
Couple of things, I used a monocular (basically a small telescope), a tape recorder (for later transcription at my own pace), carbon paper and a classmate with good handwriting or I would just get the notes from either the instructor or have an aide work with the instructor to prepare notes for me.
With the support I had getting through school became much easier and enjoyable.
Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
So, all Amazon needs to do is turn back on the text-to-speech feature...
Re:Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Informative)
"he Kindle DX has the capability to convert text to synthesized speech, but the device does not include text-to-speech functionality for its menu and navigational controls, the DOJ said in a press release. "
Re:Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Informative)
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But text-to-speech violates the rights of publishing companies who sell audiobooks for grossly inflated prices to people who like to "listen" to books while they are stuck in traffic every morning on their daily commute. It's therapeutic. Enabling text-to-speech would cause the publishers to sue.
It's a viscous cycle.
Re:Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Funny)
It's a viscous cycle.
What does liquid resistance have to do with it?
I don't understand (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay, I do understand the technicalities regarding why they say the Kindle is not as accessible to blind students as it is to sighted students. But what I don't get is - how is it different from the status quo? Blind students can't read regular textbooks already. What is it we can do for them with a printed textbook that we can't do with an electronic textbook?
And don't bring up braille, since that is a separate edition that has to be produced (and is thus independent of whether the "normal" book is on paper or electronic).
ADA? (Score:2)
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Interesting. We used to do that without being told to.
For example: uh, professor, I have an, um, medical thing I have to do the day of the exam. Do you think I could write it next week instead?
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Somebody please tell the DOJ (Score:5, Insightful)
That Harrison Bergeron is a warning........not a fucking "how-to" manual.
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html [tnellen.com]
your highest achievable standard.,.. (Score:5, Interesting)
...is the capability of the lowest common denominator.
Braille doesn't provide much access to those with no arms.
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Use your tongue to read your braille books instead. This should also stop people from buying used books...
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DOJ in classroom... (Score:4, Insightful)
The DOJ in the classroom hurts everyone.
Limitation (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, let's limit EVERYONE because a select few can't use a new technology.
The blind have always needed special teaching tools (Braille, audio books, or someone to read for them), so this isn't like a step backward or anything.
I feel for the blind, and they should definitely be accommodated, but not using eBook readers where they could be beneficial to others is not a good idea.
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I think the point is, they *CAN* be accommodated - the Kindle UI can be speech enabled with a simple firmware update, allowing the b
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In other news (Score:5, Insightful)
Take away everyones eyes! (Score:2, Interesting)
Clearly, the only way to be fair to the blind is to rip out everyone elses eyeballs so we're all equal. If no one can READ A BOOK or use a kindle than there will be no discrimination.
This is obviously a clear cut case of intentional discrimination against the blind, just like those evil bastards who invented the printing press.
Let me give you a hint. You're blind. You can not do the same things as people who aren't blind. It sucks, but thats just fucking reality. Stop expecting everyone else to cater t
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Re:Take away everyones eyes! (Score:4, Interesting)
oh god (Score:4, Insightful)
maybe they can force sighted students to wear blindfolds in class in future so that the blind have equal footing
stupidity at its best (Score:2)
If politically correct DOJ was designing Olimpics games today, they would have to make sure obese people have the same chance of winning gymnastics or marathon competition as fit people.
And Mensa would be an illegal organization.
And passing US citizenship test would require no knowledge of English... oh wait...
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The Kindle has the ablity to do audio (Score:2)
Re:The Kindle has the ablity to do audio (Score:4, Informative)
I've said it before (Score:2)
But when it's all "kindle" type devices then the information on the units can be "patched" or "updated" to fit the current political climate.
For example a story in a printed book is fairly fixed once you have the book, with a kindle if the story is deemed "offensive" it can instantly be edited and changed from what the original author wrote.
I guess I'm old (48) but I will always prefer the tactile sensation of an actual book to a kindle, and yes I have used a kindle.
Let's take this to it's logical extreme (Score:5, Funny)
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so I am an old guy, and i have always been blind in one eye. sometimes it is a bother. but let us concentrate on the old part. a peer I know got significantly rich doing programming and he is I think fully or close to it blind. I figure the healthy should accomodate disabilities, but the disabled should not expect their lives to be fair, pretty much like the rest of us. What we all need is the possibility of success. but I have no sympathy for these universities. they get a lot of tax payer money and
Blame the Author's Guild, not Amazon. (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, Amazon should make it easier to navigate but maybe positive pressure rather than lawsuits to prevent the feature would help speed that along.
Crap like this proves two things, does one thing (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Proves that our government is full of idiots.
2. Proves that blind people are frakkin' blind.
Does one thing, destroys any good will people have toward the handicap. Frankly, I see this, and I want to cut all funding to blind people and shout at them "YOU'RE !@#$% BLIND!"
Look, our society does a lot for the handicap, perhaps we can do more, and I am all for doing more where and when it's feasible. But you have to accept a certain extent of your handicap. So you're blind and you can easily navigate your Kindle. It's not like you can walk into Barnes and Noble and read all the books either. Deal!
It's harsh, yes. But when you take our goodwill and slam it in our face, don't be surprised if you get tossed to the roadside.
The real problem lies with DRM! (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem with this lies with the DRM.
I've knew two guys who copied their A4 books to A3 format; so they could read their materials anyways.
Break the DRM and blind people will be offered options to use textbooks as they want. Not like Amazon wants..
How freaky can it be to have a book, which you can't print or copy a page from, for further reference; in a SCHOOL?
Text-to-speech disabled (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe that's because publishers are, by default, disabling the text-to-speech function on their works. I'm annoyed with how many books I downloads on my kindle have text-to-speech disabled.
Re:Uhmm (Score:5, Informative)
The thing is, Amazon has announced previously that they're working on enabling text-to-speech in the menu, so that particular issue will be moot (although I don't know what the timeline is). The bigger problem is that publishers can disable the text-to-speech in their e-books on the Kindle, which would render an accessible menu fairly pointless. (The same groups mentioned in the article also have been trying to pressure those publishers who have disabled it (e.g., Random House) to re-enable text-to-speech in their Kindle e-books.)
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I work for a large multinational engineering company, and I interviewed a profoundly blind chap for a position as a software developer. Discussing his requirements with him, it was clear he could handle reading & writing C++ - speech output tools are available. Unfortunately he couldn't handle UML diagrams as there there are no tools available to 'read out' what are effectively pictures. Pity really.
Sadly, there is no money in developing technology for the blind as they represent such a small market. If
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Unfortunately he couldn't handle UML diagrams as there there are no tools available to 'read out' what are effectively pictures.
The real shame is the only companies that use UML (or at least pretend to) are those that got duped into spending $25000+ on a UML "solution". UML is the biggest waste of time since homemade butter.
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>UML is the biggest waste of time since homemade butter.
Amen to that!
It's like doing cosmetic surgery with gardening implements
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As for the ADA, Title III of the law applies to all schools, not just public ones. this [disabled-world.com] explains it fairly well.
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No, its not. (Score:3, Insightful)
As someone who has worked in higher ed providing technology for the disabled, I'm happy to see this. If you actually read TFA, you'll see the issue is that there's no text-to-speech in Kindle's menus, so the blind can't navigate the device.
I don't care. I have a tool that I can use, and I can use it. It's not right to hold someone back in the name of egalitarian principals. Saying that I cannot do something, because someone else cannot, is bullshit. Disability does not give you the right to oppress.