German Police Raid 51 CeBIT Stands Over Patent Claims 191
LeCaddie writes "Last week German investigators raided 51 exhibitor stands at CeBIT, the German information technology fair in Hanover, looking for goods suspected of infringing patents. Some 183 police, customs officers, and prosecutors raided the fair on Wednesday and carried off 68 boxes of electronic goods and documents including cellphones, navigation devices, digital picture frames, and flat-screen monitors. Of the 51 companies raided, 24 were Chinese. Most of the patents concerned were related to devices with MP3, MP4, and DVB standard functions for digital audio and video, blank CDs, and DVD copiers, police said." In the US there are no criminal penalties associated with patents, and such a raid could not be conducted, especially in the absence of a court ruling of infringement.
HA-HA (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:HA-HA (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:HA-HA... well... This could get scary if the US (Score:2)
Advertising? (Score:2)
So just pay to display your products at a booth, get raided, hope you get some _extra_ publicity, $$$.
Re:HA-HA (Score:4, Informative)
Re:HA-HA (Score:5, Informative)
Re:HA-HA (Score:5, Informative)
MiniOne (Score:2)
Re:MiniOne (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:MiniOne (Score:5, Informative)
Re:MiniOne (Score:4, Funny)
Let's see:
Cheapo knockoff iPhone sits in your pants pocket, several inches away from your testicles.
Cheapo knockoff iPhone has embedded in it a cheapo knockoff Sony Lithium battery that is even more likely to overheat than the real one.
Cheapo knockoff iPhone has cheapo knockoff current limiters on the battery and cheapo knockoff components in the battery supervisor circuit.
Next step left as exercise for the student.
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Just have millions of iPhone knock-offs explode in the pants of (male and geeky) Longnoses and they'll all be impotent. In another 20 years, China will make 50% of the population or so... They just forget that geeks never get laid anyway.
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Let's see:
Expensive sony vaio sits on your pants (lap), several inches away from your testicles.
Expensive sony vaio has in it an expensive certified Sony rechargeable battery that is even more likely to overheat than an aftermarket one.
Expensive sony vaio has cheapo cooling heatsink and causes overheating issues including notebook shutdowns and has spawned many "freeze" sites to document problems.
Expensive sony vaio has customer service, but it is so bad it's better not to use them. Actually more expensive to use them than to just ignore the problem or replace device with another brand.
Next step left as exercise for the student.
I mean honestly, spending a few grand on a vaio i thought i was getting a quality product. Everyone said they were second to IBM (at the time) think pads. I had already learned my lessons through the years with all the junk they make (walk mans, cd mans, car cd mans, head units for cars, home stereos, tv's, radios etc etc) that has broken down on me. But i trusted everyones advice and ended up getting burned in the end.
So whats worse? buying a product y
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Cheap knockoff fire (not of that kind) in your pants. Obviously, this would never happen with an official 100% Apple certified iProduct, no fucking way. [engadget.com]
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http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/05/meizus-cebit-booth-shut-down-over-mp3-licensing-issues-not-the/ [engadget.com]
Re:HA-HA (Score:5, Insightful)
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It runs Windows Mobile, it's a look-alike, not a counterfeit.
It's about MP3 patents, not Apple.
http://www.meizume.com/ [meizume.com] : "According to forum posts by Meizu CEO Jack Wong, the raid was initiated by Sisvel due to the lack of a Sisvel (patent holder of MP3 format) license."
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"Later today, a representative of Meizu told German press agency dpa that the police had not come by because of the mobile phone, but another of the company's products, a portable MP3 player. There had been "discussions" regarding licenses, she was quoted as saying. According to dpa, Meizu staff opened the stand again and again displayed the smartphone late this afternoon, with the MP3 player missing from display."
Not counterfeit (Score:3, Insightful)
There have since been further confiscations of GPS/navigation systems too.
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CeBIT is a computer fair to show off new products etc, while Richmond Night Market is primarily for selling knock off goods
Software patents? (Score:2)
Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, its more a sort of political soufflé
It's getting pretty close though... (Score:2)
The one big thing it doesn't have yet is a military.
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A possible use for NATO in the post cold-war era???
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Different ones at that.
In short, I think you're oversimplifying things a bit.
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not saying that his statement wasn't lazy.. but at least don't stupid
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Hate to break it to you but...
Each state of the United States has its own constitution. Different ones at that. So what was your point?
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Now there is a newly formulated EU base contract all the rage, but this one is not even through the parliaments of the member states yet.
Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
And here in the US we're on our way to needing passports to travel from state to state :-)
I kid, but only a little.
Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now... compare this to EU "countries" which have their own independent constitutions, law making bodies, courts etc... and then are united with other "countries" under a unifying constitution which provides for its own organized law-making body, courts, etc...
Playing my own devil's advocate... Even individuals states in the USA can have their own armies, called "State Defense Forces". Although only half (25) of the states have such an army, they do exist, and all state legislatures have authorized the creation and maintenance of such forces. A final argument might be that unlike EU countries, individual states in the USA do not partake in foreign affairs and do not have foreign delegates. This might be true to an extent, but border-states, such as California and Texas, certainly must deal with some level of foreign affairs.
Hmm... yeah, the EU and the USA are really different. If the USA is a country, than the EU is a country. If Germany is a country, than Pennsylvania is too. I think this is a matter of pride and perception than it is about terminology, or even reality. Finally, a distinction should be drawn against the EU and "Europe", such as there is a distinction between the USA and "North America". One is a country, the other is a continent.
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Indeed, but America commonly means the USA and not the two continents. I often consider that Norway is in Northern Europe, but not in Europe, and let's face it. The distinction between saying EU and Europe is really thin these days.
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Be that as it may, individual states in the US do not have the right to break away. EU member states have that right. Therefore, the EU isn't a country (yet). Rather, it is a very close confederation of countries.
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Oh.. and just so that there isn't any confusion, just last month, The State of Montana threatened to secede from the United States over gun rights.
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Pointing to the Confederacy and saying that individual states are welcome to break away is like pointing to an apprehended criminal and saying that we are free to commit crime. If states in the US break away, the US government is willing to go to war to bring them back. Contrast this with the EU, where the right to secede is enshrined in the founding charter.
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Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand: there is no european army or police force; the Iraq war showed convincingly that there is no European foreign policy; european 'law' only becomes law by national legislatures passing national laws that implement European directives; there is *no* european constitution since some members decided not to ratify it (but there are tons of treaties that could be interpreted as forming the constitution); there is no sensible European Parliament; the european equivalent of the 'bill of rights' is the European Convention on Human Rights which is the Council of Europe rather than the EU, which includes Russia and Switserland. Very importantly, EU citizens in the great majority consider themselves national citizens first, and europeans second (or third, after region/city), and the elections that count are national elections, which are generally about national issues.
"Country" is a useful abstraction that has high explanatory power, but it is ultimately a projection of a complicated continuum on a dichotomous variable. Entities like Pennsylvania, Scotland, Liechtenstein, the EU, Kosovo, Taiwan, Hongkong, etc. show that the discussion is a lot more complicated than that.
IMHO, the really interesting question is not whether the EU is a country or not, it is whether we want to delegate more power to
'Brussels' and how we can control such power. The colonies that became the USA went through the same process more than two hundred years ago, and they had an external threat to convince people that a confederation was not enough. Also, the US shows that even a constitution framed by very intelligent people who did their utmost to limit the power of the federal government to an enumerated set can gradually become a much more centralized state without changing its constitution, so without giving the member states and direct say in the matter. This makes me (as an EU citizen) wary of the EU becoming a confederacy or even federal state, as I would be afraid that it will gradually shift to a more centralized state.
Anyway...
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Maybe "Europe" is to EU as "America" is to USA?
As in "Europe" is short for "European Union" (despite the continent of the same name), and "America" is short for "United States of America" (Despite the two continents of the same name (or one if your Latin American educated)).
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As for the discussion on "if it is a country", Wikipedia continues,
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Don't be so pedantic. The first European Parliament elections were held in 1979. A bit more than 15 years ago.
Hu ? (Score:2)
EU= 12 (more than that but bear with me) states, 12 languages, 12 histories (not really, but most people consider the history of THEIR countries before the one of Europe), 12 currencies, 12 head of states which went on war with each others. And no they were not called civil war. EU got
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Captain Ramius: I suppose.
Capt. Vasili Borodin: No papers?
Captain Ramius: No papers, state to state.
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Travelling on an Australian passport, I boarded a flight from NY to Paris. For whatever reason, they did not take my I-84 out of my passport. Land in Paris, no passport stamp. Travel to Barcelona, no passport stamp. Travel back to Paris, no passport stamp. Board plane to St Louis.
So far, so good. Then Immigration looks at my passport, and asks me to step to the side, and if I could please explain to them why my passport shows no sign
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E.g. Norway, which opened up its border because it already had a border-treaty with the other Nordic countries, but didn't want to be in the EU because it wanted to keep its oil money to itself.
No you don't need to show your passport. (Score:2)
Under the terms of the Schengen Agreement [wikipedia.org] there are no longer any border controls between the vast majority of European countries. It is possible to drive all the way from Estonia to Portugal without needing to show your passport once.
Of course things are not quite as open as they may be in the USA. Firstly, not all countries are covered (notably missing are the UK and Ireland). Secondly, some countries require citizens to carry ID cards and visitors to carry passports, but the agreement means that you
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Most of the patents concerned were related to devices with MP3, MP4, and DVB standard functions for digital audio and video, blank CDs, and DVD copiers
I thought software patents were illegal in Europe
This is mainly about actual devices, not about mere software. MP3 is kind of interesting because a second essential[*] patent pool has established itself, completely separate from the Fraunhofer/Thomson pool that everybody has licensed.
[*] Essential for portable MP3 players and similar devices.
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How long is it until mp3 is out of patent anyway?
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"Why use mp3 in a situation where you might be in trouble over patents? There are plenty of other codecs out there, ogg for one. Most ripper programs hat I know of can rip to ogg, and there are conversion tools. It wouldn't be hard to set up a conversion system."
Sadly, there's not much of a market for Ogg-only players. I'm perfectly aware that Slashdotters would have not the slightest issue with purchasing a FLAC-only or Ogg-only player, but we're the very tippy-top of the market. The Chinese knockoff v
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Why use mp3 in a situation where you might be in trouble over patents? There are plenty of other codecs out there, ogg for one. Most ripper programs hat I know of can rip to ogg, and there are conversion tools. It wouldn't be hard to set up a conversion system.
Because regardless of its merits, Ogg's usage is extremely rare outside of geek circles. Even amongst Slashdot readers, I'd guess that although most of us are aware of it, only a small proportion actually encode their music using it.
It's the old critical mass chicken-and-egg thing, and I'm not convinced that Ogg Vorbis will ever reach that breakthrough point.
As for conversion... frankly, most people would ask *why* they should bother converting their music to another format just to listen to it on some
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Re:Software patents? (Score:5, Informative)
It is not about software patents. It is about embedded devices (hence not "computers") with a specific functionality profile. At least German law enforcement has not yet grasped that a phone can actually have software downloaded into it and so not all functionality is "hardcoded". Also a device can be in violation of "Musterschutz" (something like the "look" part from "look and feel"), by closly following the design of an other device.
Side note: MP3 as a method or as an encoder/decoder is not protected, but the parameter set used is (as far as I understand this). As to the CDs, these were likely counterfit, i.e. claiming a different manufacturer. That is trademark infringement. DVD copier could be classified as "circumvention device" for copy protection shemes, which are illegal in Germany. (I know, I know, lawmakers with no grasp of technology...)
My guess is that this raid will actually result in no or very little prosecution. But the displays have been removed, so the patent holders are satisfied. Unfortunately it will be very difficult to get any compensation for the damage done, even if equipment was seized in error.
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Yes, but will this be adequate for loosing the mess exposure of a product, which can go into millions and more and is very hard to estimate?
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Software patents are not honored by the EU patent court nor honored by most member countries. (Which means anyone being challenged about a software patent can get it to European court where such a suit would fail.)
Shh, don't give them ideas. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure our lobbyists and politicians will get right to work on fixing that.
dept.? (Score:2, Funny)
There are German companies with IP behind this (Score:4, Interesting)
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They have nothing to do with this. Sisvel manages another stack
of patents that they claim to be relevant to the mp3 format.
Apparently, the most important of those patents is for a padding
bit. The idea is to add zeros to a VBR file so that a CBR only
decoder can handle the file.
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That's very speculative, any source or quote would eliminate that.
And - Nope - it's those guys:
http://www.sisvel.com/ [sisvel.com] pushing the events.
They did it last year as well.
Apparently patent trolls - from their web site..
It looks like... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's only to be expected. (Score:3, Funny)
No criminal penalties in the US (Score:2)
This was mostly about 'product piracy'. (Score:4, Interesting)
The chinese ripping off IP is a big issue in Germany. They order a machine, dismantle it and copy it exactly, down to the last bolt and then sell cheap low-quality knock-offs of it back to Europe.
My cousin (engineer at Airbus) tells me there even is an Airbus 320 that went to China some time ago. That was it's only flight and it never appeared again. He suspects it's lying around somewhere dismantled and analysed.
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Law enforcement officials acknowledged that the raids were only for patent violations.
Re:This was mostly about 'product piracy'. (Score:4, Insightful)
Airbus sent a 55 million Euro aircraft to a client in China, it never came back, and they never asked for it back, and this has never been discussed in any media that I can find?
I'm not entirely convinced just yet.
The summary got it wrong (Score:2, Informative)
The summary got it RIGHT (Score:5, Informative)
Auslöser für die Aktion waren den Angaben der Staatsanwaltschaft zufolge Strafanzeigen der Rechteinhaber. Bei der Razzia sei es vorwiegend um Patente für Datenkompressionsverfahren, DVB-Standards und DVDs gegangen, sagte Kriminaloberrat Oliver Stock, der die Aktion koordiniert hatte und sich über einen "erfolgreichen Abschluss" freute.
Bad translation (by me):
According to the public prosecutors office complaints by holders of rights were reason for the action. Law enforcement senior councillor Oliver Stock who coordinated the action and was glad about the "successfull completion" said target of the raid where mainly patents for data compression, DVB standards and DVDs.
There were some initial (wrong) reports that reason for the raid was counterfeiting (iPhone look-a-likes) but these reports were later corrected, see for example http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/104591 [heise.de] (in english).
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It is about software patents (Score:2, Interesting)
They have a list of 3 or 4 software patents which belongs to the MPEG1-layer3 ISO standard, be it implemented in hardware of in software:
http://www.ipeg.com/_UPLOAD%20BLOG/Sisvel%20patents%20overview.pdf [ipeg.com]
The German police is using the criminal procedure to seize counterfeited goods, despite the fact that those patents could be challenged in court for validity.
If there are some MP3 manufacturers
...yet... (Score:2)
Didn't something pass recently creating an "IP Police force" or something along those lines? Sounds to me like they're preparing to do exactly that.
Wow (Score:2)
ogg (Score:2)
Good Editor! (Score:2)
Sometimes the Slashdot editors can be frustrating, but this is a good example where a quick sentence added on to the submitted summary was informative, and probably headed off a large number of misguided posts. Kudos.
Re:very, very dangerous (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Somehow I get the impression they want it to di (Score:2, Informative)
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The fact is, although I know the distinction is lost on some, that, while technically China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macao are all "Chinese", they are not one culture. Heck even those from mainland China are not all one culture. I have had friends from each country and some identify more with their region than with "China" (that is especially true of those from Taiwan).
Personally I am not so troubled with your comment, which I think was made in jest.
Re:9 from German (Score:4, Insightful)
Nice troll, and quite a hot topic in the region at the moment. Interesting how an off topic, political troll got modded +5 informative. Must be a lot of pro one china types with mod points today who read slashdot before they started work. Interesting times ahead I think.