Microsoft Tries To Prevent Further Discovery 178
An anonymous reader notes the considerable irony in Microsoft asking for relief from further discovery in the Windows Vista Capable debacle. This is the lawsuit that was recently granted class-action status, and Microsoft wants the wheels of justice to stop while it appeals that designation. It's easy to see why Microsoft wants to prevent further digging around in their and their OEMs' email archives, with stories like this one from the NYTimes (registration may be required) revealing Redmond's highly embarrassing internal emails to a mass audience.
ahoj (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ahoj (Score:4, Funny)
I think that Ballmer is secretly Scottish and always wanted to be a caber tosser.
Re:ahoj (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:ahoj (Score:4, Funny)
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Or was the Titanic really a Royal Mail Ship [wikipedia.org]?
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It's only fair (Score:5, Interesting)
Can't have that, can we?
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Seal my thunder!
Re:It's only fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, though, this lawsuit is great stuff. On the one hand, you have a monopoly forced into a measure of transparency and accountability. Then you have that monopoly's shortcomings being made the subject of stories in The New York Times (this one in the Business Section, no less), to say nothing of similar stories in other papers elsewhere. The lawsuit itself may be about Vista, but the emails are about Microsoft. Whether you care about Vista or not, this is good for everyone.
The lawsuit will most likely be decided using a "reasonableness" standard, and the outcome will probably be similarly reasonable, like coupons or some such nonsense. The more interesting question is whether Microsoft itself is Ready(TM) or Capable(TM) to address the more fundamental problems of Vista, and what Windows users forced into upgrades by a variety of means will have to contend with in the interim.
The real problem.... (Score:2, Funny)
In short, it would be faster to print all the emails and shred them.
Re:It's only fair (Score:4, Interesting)
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If you look at the section E-mail communication retention policy and storage [com.com] in an article on it at TechRepublic, it seems that SOx dictates that email needs to be retained indefinitely.
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or
Microsoft doesn't produce the documents (citing that the documents no longer exist) and torpedos any remaining myths about reliability in window server systems and Microsoft Exchange
Brilliant, its a win-win situation.
Microsoft hired the wrong people! (Score:4, Funny)
Problem solved.
They Think Differently (Score:5, Insightful)
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
You've decided the case - the court hasn't (Score:5, Insightful)
How is that not acceptable? If they labeled systems misleadingly then they should be paying to help clean up the mess they caused.
You're operating under the assumption that the case against Microsoft is valid. Since the case has not yet been decided, the court cannot operate under that assumption. During discovery the court has to weigh the cost to Microsoft against the probability that information germane to the case at hand will be revealed. Civil litigation frequently involves analysis of this kind.
If the court allowed every single discovery motion, cases would never be resolved and the cost of litigation would be higher than it already is. I'm not saying that this motion shouldn't be allowed, but the courts don't have the luxury of deciding the case first, then making discovery rulings on that basis.
Re:You've decided the case - the court hasn't (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but in this case the discovery has already revealed evidence that is quite damning, namely that Microsoft knew about Vista's many problems.
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Your comment suggests that no additional discovery is yet necessary.
Re:You've decided the case - the court hasn't (Score:5, Insightful)
But that's another lawsuit, isn't it?
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Pretty hard to say it isn't valid (Score:2)
At this stage of the case, the court needs to make the guess. Based on what's already been revealed it is hard to say that (a) there is no case -or- (b) there is no further information.
Any judge who was to try whitewash this one would be comitting professional suicide.
Re:You've decided the case - the court hasn't (Score:5, Interesting)
TV shows like Law and Order state in their introduction voice-over that the DAs "prosecute offenders" not suspects.
Police on shows like Cops routinely justify their overzealous use of power with no regard for citizens' rights (including questioning without Mirandizing them).
People should be ashamed that they've turned on each other and decided they can be judge and jury based on facts heard third and fourth party through the Internet.
Let someone have their day in court then feel free to judge based on the facts.
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Apologies. I didn't mean to lose the mod, you deserve it. Could someone with points please give parent an insightful?
I thought you could post as AC without that happening, maybe because I previewed without ticking the boxes.
Re:They Think Differently (Score:5, Funny)
Eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
I.e. it would cut even further into Vista sales.
and would jeopardize Microsoft's goodwill with class members.
What does this mean in normal human language, rather than lawyerspeak???
Re:Eh? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
If Microsoft had any goodwill with the class members, why would said members be suing Microsoft? That statement doesn't make any sense on the face of it.
Class != current members (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Eh? (Score:5, Funny)
It means 'we called our customers mindless sheep that go where they're led, and called our VAR partners our bitches that will do what they're told, and we called our 'MVPs our whores that
That's my guess, at least.
Vista disaster (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Vista disaster (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah the problem is that they listened to some asshat Marketing VP instead of their program managers
She was exactly right, for MS this is a complete tragedy. Any bets on if they give her a big fat rise for trying to warn them? Any bets on if they fire the senior management that pushed for dropping the hardware requirements?
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This is what happens when your brain only can plan 3 months in advance to the next budget report. The future be damned, the stock holders want possitiv reports now. In six months we'll come up with a new scam to bolster the numbers. If the stock holders where happy the last time when we fired a 1000 then they will be twice as happy if we fire 2000...
Mwhahahaha (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, the sweet irony.
Whatever happened to the marketing department? (Score:5, Insightful)
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The one thing Microsoft were always great at was marketing.
What are you talking about? Zune, Basic, Premium, Business, Enterprise, Ultimate, Editions proves marketing genius. That marketing is what got them in this mess. I say again as I said it before, they should really fire their marketing department. Of course, I could be clearly mistaken!! By marketing, do you mean lying. Modern slang does befuddle me.
Oh call it what it is.... (Score:2, Redundant)
Registration-free LINK (Score:5, Informative)
http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080309/1194753587951.html?.v=4 [yahoo.com]
Microsoft values your money (in their pockets) (Score:4, Insightful)
On one hand, there's Microsoft keeping money saved on lawsuits and salaries, preventing anyone besides themselves (and probably few of themselves at that) from knowing just how much money they extract from you and trying to seem like a Good Corporate Citizen (TM).
On the other hand, there's your interest in saving the money that Microsoft has only been able to demand because they've been able to keep their pricing scheme secret from you.
Microsoft says that money in their pockets is more important than money in your pockets. Colour me unsurprised.
why stop now? (Score:3, Informative)
Am I the only one... (Score:2, Interesting)
... who thought from the very beginning, having experience with minimum sys reqs and having the ability to see through marketing, that 'capable' meant: It can boot and nothing more?
And BTW (this rule always aplies...): always get informed about a product first before you buy it. I can't say this enough times. There are always products that may have downsides/flaws.
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I guess the only thing is the marketing swing to it...it wasnt very obvious when you saw a "Capable" sticker that there even WAS a "Designed For" one, as opposed to a game box, where the "recommended" requirements are right next to the "minimum" requirements...
I Object... (Score:5, Funny)
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A reputation that money could not buy (Score:3, Interesting)
Damage control or reusing old material (Score:2)
Delaying to cause email deletion via expiration? (Score:2)
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Re:Glad I made the family buy XP (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps they won't get their money on the next round.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
<analogy>
If you bought a DVD player that, according to the label, would play anything and then it refused to play a DVD someone lent you would you be upset?
Probably.
The DVD you've put in contains half a dozen Divx files. Still upset?
Probably not, but most of my social group still do not understand why that would be.
</analogy>
I think John Q. Public isn't going to realise that undergoing a research project, prior to buying what is rapidly become just another consumer electronics device, is required. They will want what it says on the box.
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It's been a foregone conclusion since sometime in the mid 90s that to run a program reasonably that you have to be at least one step up from the listed processor and have an additional measure of ram as well. That's bare minimum.
What that specifically entails has changed, it used to be 16mhz or so was enough and 1mb of ram. Now it's quite a bit more, but my point is tha
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Re: DIVX (Score:2)
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Lets say a car company markets a gas powered car as an "electric motor ready" car. "Sweet" says I the consumer; next year when the company starts selling electric motors, I will be able to stick one in my car. Then next year rolls around, and the only electric motor that will fit in my "electric motor ready" car will only let me go 15mph; oh and the batteries will take up the rest of the car, meaning I can't carry any passengers or cargo. And not too surprisingly all of that was left off the "electric motor ready" car marketing material.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Informative)
It's deceptive, if not outright false advertising.
Here's a car analogy for you. Imagine a large car company starts advertising a new model of car. The ads feature a soft-top coupe with aggressive sports styling, leather trim, 19" chrome wheels, big twin turbo v12 engine, 6 speed flappy-paddle gearbox, and is capable of 200mph.
You walk into the showroom, and the cars look like they do in the ads, or even better, but they are expensive. The salesman says "no worries" - this is the top model. There are much cheaper ones that are almost as good - you still get most of the features of the top model.
"Great", you say. "I'll take one!"
The salesman tells you that they are all in shipping crates out the back, so you can't look at it now, but they will deliver it to you.
The next morning you find a new car in your driveway. It looks like a Hyundai Excel, has a 4 cylinder engine, 14" wheels with plastic hubcaps, cloth trim, and a 4 speed manual gearbox.
You take it back to complain, but the salesman says "How did I mislead you? It has most of the features of the top model - seats, wheels, a steering wheel, seatbelts, a handbrake, lights, a horn, a gearbox, and it drives on the road. And it's capable of doing 200mph, if you can get it into a cargo plane that moves that fast..."
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In my experience, the demo machines are all mid-high spec running Aeroglass. But there's the cheaper version of the computer, with most of the features you see here, in a box I can get you from out the back. In this case, the equivalent would be clicking around on a Vista Ultimate Demo on the demo computer for a while (test driving the top model demo
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
So far as sales go, this is probably gonna hurt. Me, I'm sticking with XP and Linux for the time being.
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Interesting)
Nowadays the speed advertisements make even less sense as Windows is preinstalled on practically everything and the only people installing manually are on old hardware.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux is too difficult for the average person, they will need outside help. But windows is so easy the average person can handle things themselves, no need for outside help.
Whereas other times we see things like you put forward:
"Now what are those people complaining about? That they didn't research what "Vista Capable" entails? That they have no clue on how to do IT?"
Problems with windows really aren't windows problems, they are due to clueless users.
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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They are NOT meant to administrated by users. What marketing says is one thing, reality is another. Most users do not possess or are willing to learn the knowledge required for even basic troubleshooting.
I'm not blaming them for that - i'm blaming them for not getting professional help. It's the same way i handle my car. I drive it (user), but i'll leave repais and checkups to qualified profession
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
Fine, so again:
Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?
And, if you do need the experts, who should the administrator be for the average home user?
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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Yes. No doubt at all.
And, if you do need the experts, who should the administrator be for the average home user?
At best, a geeky friend who can fix the problems. If not, the local computer store. Though many people still throw away XP computers with perfect hardware because the shop would charge them more than the computer's worth to de-infest it.
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Yes, but surely linux would be easy enough with a geeky friend as well...
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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Easier once it's set up, in my experience.
The problem is, there's a lot of "gurus" out there who are one-trick ponies. They know Windows well, and that knowledge is a source of respect and free dinners for them. They're the ones who keep the average punter tied to the monopoly wheel.
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Not the argument I am making... The argument I see people make when they want to say linux is too difficult for the average person but windows is easy for the average person.
People make the other argument I put down in other circumstances of course.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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Which version of Windows is this? And when is it coming out?
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Users are not a problem.
Problem is that Microsoft thinks they can redefine the meaning of word "capable".
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Just to be clear, I was not making that claim, just pointing out that I see it made when it suits certain people.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
So the million people that bought Eee PCs are all above average?
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I guess I wasn't clear enough. People seem to be taking it as if I were making one of the claims in my post. No, those are conflicting claims I see windows supporters or linux detractors making. I say they can't have it both ways.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Funny)
You don't need to be an expert to use windows. But you got to be an expert in operating systems, linguistics, etymology, marketing and law to buy Windows systems. Got that?
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But when it comes to virus and spyware issues, claims bubble up that you may need to be expert to safely run the thing even.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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Which one is easier to keep updated, both system and apps?
Which one needs activation?
Which one mounts volumes partitioned with other OSs?
Which one comes with different crippled apps for each model so each time you change pc you have a different dvd maker or media player app?
Which one has a different way for each model to backup the
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Personally, I find linux easier and I did windows before linux. Of course, I was doing fortran on punch cards to start and my first personal work was on a TRS-80 Model I. 16K ram 4K rom iirc.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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if you mean having a password to log in and install software, then maybe. If you mean 'switching to linux' then definitely. if you mean 'troubleshooting things that don't work' then they're in the same boat as when windows doesn't behave nicely. as far as 'using' linux goes, it's not hard at all. just tape up a password
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Didn't you see:
"Which is it? Do you need expert skill and knowledge to run windows properly and safely or not?"
Didn't you see that I put forward two opposing claims that people make about windows ease and linux difficulty?
Not saying you or anyone else who didn't get my post are at fault. With so much misunderstanding, I figure I was unclear even though I thought I was.
Can you help me pin down where the lack of clarity was so I don't make the same mistake again.
I
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I did see that and thank you for noticing, but either most did, or I misread most responses.
all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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all the best,
drew
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
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The one thing I find so great about administrating Linux for my family is the ability to solve issues over the phone with a few select command line instructions.
Instructing my father to add another DSL provider to a laptop consisted of "type 'sudo pppoe-config'" (I think; there was a bit of tab-completion there) and a few cp and ln lines, along with the instructions on how to select either one. He may have failed to understand most of it (I explained him what each step did, but I don't know how much he fou
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)
The point of the lawsuit is that if a product has a sticker saying "Vista Capable", then that should be all the research necessary.
Not running "Aero" is actually a pretty big problem. For most people the only noticeable change in Vista is the new pretty GUI. I know there's supposedly other new features, but that's the only one that sticks out to most people. So when it's not there...
If people would just "inform themselves", there would be no spam, no malware, no viruses, no security problems, ... Obviously that's not going to happen. It's hard enough for the average idiot to buy computer hardware without Microsoft lying to them.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
Although I have not read the CLASS documents, this is coming from the consumer side. These are people that are not IT professionals. I am an IT professional, and when I did the very same research you did, I told every customer I had, "Look, what Vista is bringing to the table, you really don't need". The people you have working for you perform about 4 basic functions. a) They type up documents. b) They do basic spreadsheets, nothing fancy nothing remotely resembling complicated. c) They do e-mail correspondence. d) they do minor web research.
I told them 95% of your machines will require a memory upgrade and a new video card, since the on-board video system will not handle Aero and with parts and labor that is going to cost you about $300.00 per machine so that's going to be around $30K PLUS the upgrade licenses, training costs, etc. To a client, they all said, "And I would do this why?".
On the consumer side, all they see is "Vista Capable". Now if they had stickers like "Vista Capable but NOT vista premium Capable" that might have made consumers step back and say "Huh, what you talking about Willis?". Their own e-mail exchanges ( which I have read ) clearly indicate that they knew the marketing was going to confuse the crap about of your average consumer, that they knew the Intel video chip-set was "No Go" but they made the decision to push forward anyway, even after one of their own said, "I now have a $2100.00 e-mail machine", with no printer drivers, no Aero, none of the "WOW" that was being heavily advertised and promoted as the lunchpin of their upgrade sales strategy.Microsoft really really put shit out there that is now coming around to bite them in the ass, and deservedly so.
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I told them 95% of your machines will require a memory upgrade and a new video card, since the on-board video system will not handle Aero and with parts and labor that is going to cost you about $300.00 per machine so that's going to be around $30K PLUS the upgrade licenses, training costs, etc. To a client, they all said, "And I would do this why?".
You answered their question in the previous paragraph:
I told every customer I had, "Look, what Vista is bringing to the table, you really don't need".
First you
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I was painfully truthful, I laid out the entire upside/downside. To give an example, one was an accounting firm w/ +-130 desktops. They are not in an AD environment, they are in an Edir environment. They are all running XPsp2 with one common desktop user for every machine, that way each user can work at any vacant desk, they get the same set of app's. E-Mail client loads from the server, no local PST files, nothing makes the machines unique and although it took a lot of trial and error, we made their ta
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This is a great discussion!
Yes it is draconian and it is not without cause. Last year they had an employee who managed to get hold of the local administrator PW for his workstation. He managed to install some bit of crap that just took the network to its knees for about 4 hours while it when tried to infect the whole shop. Fortunately AV was in place ( he disabled his as the local administrator policy allowed that ) and kept it contained. He didn't fess-up as the IT team went on the search to find the p
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Oh I'm not claiming to be a multitasking god... 4-5 'programs' is probably not far off the mark. But I'll have 5+ browser windows open, and 5+ folder windows open, and a few notepad instances, then email, etc... so I'll be at 15-20 windows before I st
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Funny)
Perhaps if you then told them that the 20th century has been over for nearly a decade, they might ponder on why older versions of Windows have a 19th century security model.
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I said 20th century not 21st on purpose. I don't consider not running as an administrator a new 21st century idea. So, yes, I think we should *all* ponder why XP still has a 19th century security model.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they didn't. No one should have to. If it's capable of running the Vista that was advertised (all ads showed the Aero interface), it should be labeled Vista Capable. If it only runs a crippled version of Vista that is NEVER seen in an ad, except to be listed by name and price, it should be labeled "Vista Crippled." If it won't run common software and hardware, it should never have been released. Why the hell would anyone assume otherwise? Even people at Microsoft thought so.
That they have no clue on how to do IT?
Again, no they don't, nor should they have to. Not everyone who buys a computer works in an IT department. Most don't know much about the inner workings of computers, so they go by what the promotion says, that Vista is the best OS out there, and you can do all these wonderful things with it. Even many who do work for IT, even Microsoft employees, would not assume that drivers would not exist (and never be planned to exist) for common hardware and software. XP ran these devices and programs, and reasonable people would assume the heavily advertised upgrade to XP would too.
I don't understand the lawsuit - if they would've informed themselves, they wouldn't have had the problem.
If Microsoft hadn't intentionally misinformed the public, they wouldn't have had the problem. You shouldn't have to do research to refute the "facts" that companies
And the machines CAN run Windows Vista - all the editions. Just Aero and Moviemaker won't work without a proper graphic card, but that's not much of a problem.
It is a HUGE problem for a lot of people. Just because you don't use Moviemaker doesn't make it unimportant. Ditto the Aero interface.
It's like buying a DVD player for a TV you bought because it was labeled DVD-Capable, then finding out it will only play in black & white unless you get a DVD-Premium-Ready TV.
Only in America II (Score:2)
*I realize I am arguing with the Hivemind*
Oh well, never mind.
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IANAL and all that....
Generally, to protect your email from discovery, write an email retention policy (timestamp on implemention date), and follow it without exception. If your policy says you delete all emails after 30 days - do it. Up until you are served with a discovery request, anything you have destroyed as a part of your retention policy is no problem. Of course, once you get that discovery request and the matching "you are being sued" notice, do not destroy a thing.
Check with YOUR lawyer befor
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Anything could happen where you need a clear cut "paper trail".
Re:What does this mean for me? (Score:5, Informative)
If your company is publicly held, the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 imposes strict requires on document retention, including email. You can't just adopt a policy and stick to it. If your policy is not in compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley, you will be in big trouble should anyone sue you and ask for email or other documents that should have been retained.
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