States Seek Laws to Curb Online Bullying 251
An anonymous reader writes to tell us that many states are considering laws to help crack down on "cyberbullying". "Steven Brown, executive director of the Rhode Island branch of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it will be difficult to draft a cyberbullying law that doesn't infringe on free-speech rights. 'The fact that two teenagers say nasty things about each other is a part of growing up,' he said. 'How much authority does a school have to monitor, regulate and punish activities occurring inside a student's home?' In Arkansas, the state Senate this month passed a bill calling on school districts to set up policies to address cyberbullying only after it was amended to settle concerns about students' free-speech rights."
Moo (Score:4, Insightful)
Reagan said it of government, i say it of schools. Replace the "government" with "school" and "economic" with "scholastic" from here [reaganfoundation.org].
And this time it will be the same. (Score:3, Insightful)
Post a story about some teacher demanding that some kid take down his personal, non-school website calling some kid a poopy-head and the
Either the school does control the lives of the kids outside of school or it does not.
The author
Um... No? (Score:4, Insightful)
At least, I hope not. Free speech is something that we shouldn't have a double standard about.
I admit it—I was bullied when I was a kid. And yet, I still don't believe that government should step in to force kids (or anyone, for that matter) to take down their personal, non-school web sites.
I'm not sure why you're assuming that /.'ers will in general put overprotectionism over free speech. I'd guess the exact opposite.
Read the comments on the dupe. (Score:2)
Read the comments on the dupe.
I agree with that. But there is also a tendency for people to look to "authority" for "protection" from "threats".
Even when that authority should NOT have any authority over the perceived "threat". Which is why I referenced the "bullying".
Once people start expecting/demanding tha
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We personal freedoms comes personal responsibility. Children under 18 are normally (except in extreme cases) not held responsible for their actions. If my son breaks my neighbors window, I'm responsible - even if I subsequently make my son work it off.
Likewise, if my son libels or slanders someone, they'll come to me looking for restitution.
[disclaimer: can't = it's not legal to do
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Yet they can still be tried as adults for certain crimes.
We personal freedoms comes personal responsibility.
Yet it seems like the only time kids are treated as adults are as you put it in extreme cases
This seems wrong.
I agree with the rest of your post though.
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Stop bullying IN the school first! (Score:4, Interesting)
Do something about bullying on campus first before claiming any authority off campus. Something other than Zero Tolerance which punishes the victims disproportionally because the perpetrators know how not to get caught (or is on the sports team).
And stop putting one Good Kid between two troublemakers just because you can't police your own classroom.
And where the hell does a public school get the authority to force the whole student bodychool to attend a funeral in the gym during school hours for one of those two troublemakers who died playing chicken against the other one! Where every student had to walk past the damn open casket! And then the first students through decided to hug the parents, so everyone after them felt they had to too! The school even posted teachers at the exits so no one would leave and never told anyone that attendance was voluntary!
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Also one has to remember that there is a trade off between a school's power over it's children and it's ability to stop bullying. The problem with zero tolerance is it's inflexibility requiring teachers
The law would not even be useful (Score:5, Interesting)
Another question is what should happen to the people breaking that law? Do we want to have teenagers to pay fines for it or do we let them do social work somewhere? Will that have the intended effect on them?
Like the article stated, teachers need to talk to their students and the parents need to participate in this as well. Nobody should feel good by bullying someone else and this cannot be achieved by passing a law.
Re:The law would not even be useful (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely not! That is completely backwards!
Parents need to talk to their students and the teachers to reinforce this as well.
Re:The law would not even be useful (Score:4, Insightful)
As a parent I disagree with your statement, on it's face. Sure, it's my responsibility to teach my children to do the right thing, and I surely do that to the best of my ability.
Still, it remains fact that not all kids have parents that are going to teach vital life skills, like how to organize, study, and get along with others. It remains fact that the rest of us, and our children still have to deal with these less than prepared people, and their children. And it remains fact, that schools can and should do something about it.
We just need the political and social will to make policies that teach this stuff. There are plenty of books on the subject, some even demonstrating what can be done by both teachers and parents, such as "They Don't Like Me: Lessons on Bullying and Teasing from a Preschool Classroom" [amazon.com].
In an ideal world, parents would all do the right thing. In reality, many of them are not prepared for the task, and could use a little help. For the sake of the rest of us, and for their sake, I think we should address that reality.
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Trying to keep the bullied kid apart from the bullies (pulling him from a class as they did with me) or telling him just to ignore the bullies doesn't cut it. Bullying may happen when the teacher isn't looking but they damn well know it is going on and need to do something about it.
It is the parents that are the problem. If the teacher had a free hand to punish when they knew bullying was goi
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I bet your teachers never did that - neither did mine, though they did do a lot of finger wagging.
I think it is important who's fault it is though, since it's
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Responsibility (Score:2)
Why should schools be doing this? What is wrong with the parents?
Schools started off being there for education, then sport and now they're also day care -- a place to dump the kids so that the parents can go to work. Should they also be the moral guardians too? If this trend continues, the schools/government will own your kids and allow you to borrow them for a few hours on weekends.
Not only that, but we already *have* relevant laws (Score:2)
How does bullying someone via e-mail or IM make the situation any different? WTF is the point in making yet another law when we already HAVE applicable laws against harassment and intimidation?
Re:Not only that, but we already *have* relevant l (Score:2)
This shit is out of control (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:This shit is out of control (Score:4, Insightful)
They may be kinda hard for the crippled kid who receives shit every day because he has to use a walker.
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Re:This shit is out of control (Score:5, Insightful)
Laws leave room for self defense where schools do not. I was once jumped by 5 kids and somehow I was the one that got in trouble, oh yeah probably because I fought back.
If our system keeps on breeding people like this we're just going to have more columbines and more extreme violence. A couple kids getting in a fight might be bad but it's probably not as bad as letting them build up whatever hate they have before exploding.
Re:This shit is out of control (Score:5, Insightful)
I've made it clear to my kids that they cannot start a fight. However, regardless of school policy, if they fight back they have my support 100%. There are long term effects to the psyche by learning not to stand up for yourself and backing down to every threat.
I've wailed on guys a lot bigger than me for bullying, and even when I lost they stopped bullying me because they knew I'd fight back.
The best defense for verbal abuse is eye-rolling and walking away. That pisses people off a lot more than trying to come back with some snarky retort and failing, or being a big baby about it and crying to the teacher (which makes things worse 100% of the time).
Re:This shit is out of control (Score:5, Funny)
They send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue.
That's the Chicago way.
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I was bullied in school until I fractured someone's nose in front of their friends.
All of a sudden no one wanted to make fun of me anymore.
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I have the opposite set of personal experience and memories.
My parents were very careful to teach me that physical threats, emotional responses, and physical replies to such represent animalistic behavior. Because they worked as hard as they did to reinforce this concept in me, when I was in school and some punk came up and tried to bully me, I treated him like a barking dog, because that is EXACTLY how much significance he had in my mind.
I walked away. I didn't run. I didn't find someo
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I never got bullied around as a kid because I, like y
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Actually, I think it was more or less that people born before 1970 were expected to respect authority as children.
Although children often disagreed, authority had the whereabouts to force them to comply most of the time usually through say... Corporal punishment regardless of age.
Since I didn't live in that period I am not sure, but I sup
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If that is true then there is an underlying problem with society that we can't fix with my method or your method but rather actually passing laws that correct schools by firing school officials who do not correct bullying rather than this stupid cyber laws that are impossible to enforce against students.
Show me one example. Honestly, I'd like to s
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Zero Tolerance (Score:2, Interesting)
The fact is whether you realize it or not you will be dealing with bullies for the rest of your life; they may be a co-worker, your boss or even a relative. Rarely (as an adult) is a confrontation an appropriate way to deal with bullies so why should you start to teach your child to deal with it that way; imagine your child being "bullied" by their boss and responding with "Hey b
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You don't always have the luxury of pretending you
are in some fantasyland created by Gene Roddenberry.
It may not just be yourself at risk but you may also
be responsible for someone else and you need to be
prepared to meet that responsibility.
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The fact is that there are appropriate reactions to every encounter, and rarely is the appropriate reaction to use violence (or intimidation) to get your way. Whether you like it or not Zero Tolerance exists because school's are trying to reduce the number of children who are hurt (or killed) because of violent encounter
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I hate to break it to you, but humans have developed this thing called "society" in the last few thousand years. In it, people who walk around trying to pull off monkey dominance rituals tend to get a) arrested b) ostracised c) killed. If some shmuck wa
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Yup. Columbine, Heath, etc. all are believed to be at least in part due to somebody being pushed too far by bullying. Zero tolerance had already gone too far when I was in high school in the 90s. All it does is ensure that the victim fights back. Why? Because the victim will get suspended for being in the fight regardless of whether he/she fights back, so he/she might as well inflict as much damage as possible. That's the lesson that zero tolerance policies teach our kids: if you're being harmed, you
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And you'd be amazed how one high-status person (read "popular") can completely destroy bullying ...
In Elementary/Junior High School I wasn't too popular, but in high-school I became reasonably popular for various reasons. One of my friends (who was more popular than I was) disliked bu
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Of course, sometimes there's going to be an asskicking either way, so sometimes in those cases it's best to get your licks in and hope you can knock a few of them down before they can all shitkick you, or just prove to them that you're too psycho to f*** around with.
(yes, even when they're small little buggers, nobody messed with th
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I'm looking forward to the day that the bullies and folks like you are both held to adult criminal standards while in school and kids are taught to report and press charges on any bullies so we'd have these bullies all jailed. Verbal and physical assualt is wrong. It doesn't matter if you are 2, 6, 12, 18, 25, or 35. It is wrong and you s
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Maybe things are different now than they were when I was a kid. I wasn't terribly interested in advancing my standing within the group by picking on someone else and the few times I got hassled, I just walked away. Yes, I got called a chicken, but so what? I was interested in neither their opinion nor the macho BS game that they wanted to play. Eventually people learn that they can't get under your skin enough to make you react and
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Re:This shit is out of control (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This shit is out of control (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod parent up. Confrontation only works when you're in a predominantly middle-class suburban setting. In settings where gangs are common, doing something like the GP is incredibly dangerous. Sock one in the face? Welcome to the ICU, if you're lucky.
IMHO the answer to bullying is not "toughen up, hit 'em back", nor is it a bunch of inane laws that cannot ever be enforced. It all comes down to the school's ability to discipline their students, and the parents' willingness to discipline their children.
No amount of school-enforced punishment will be effective if the child goes home and is congratulated by the parent(s) for bullying yet another high school loser. I know of many parents who would do just such a thing, without realizing the kind of little monsters they are creating.
People bully in order to use the misery of others as a way to elevate themselves in the eyes of their peers. Nobody bullies alone, the mob mentality is a critical component of that behavior. Until the majority of people have no tolerance for bullying, and will stand up not only for themselves but others as well when bullied, this kind of thing will continue.
And it is unfortunate. For someone caught in bullying (like I once was) there is simply no way out. If you're in a safe enough environment you can sock 'em in the face and be done with it, but if they're part of the Chinese mafia there's really nothing you can do. Schools have their hands tied to giving out punishments that don't even amount to slaps on the wrist, and most often if a child has gotten to that point his/her parents are probably douchebags who can't be bothered to discipline their own children. In this case there is absolutely nothing a bullied child can do.
People often look at the bullied kids that snap, and point out the ills of our society (rap music, comic books, video games, whatever the problem du jour is). I for one sympathize with many of them. It is difficult for people who have never been bullied to comprehend the level of powerlessness that it instills in you. I've gone through a lot of crap since high school, and everything pales in comparison to the sheer powerless terror that you walk into school with every morning. In our modern atmosphere of classifying everything bad as "terrorism", it's a damned shame that bullying is not, 'cos IMHO it's probably the closest thing to terrorism that happens regularly in America.
Disclaimer: I do not condone nor endorse the actions of the ones that snap. I am merely saying that I can see why they did, and where they were coming from. When you are in a constant state of terror and fear, and live in a society that tolerates and seemingly encourages it, with absolutely no system or people to turn to, certain crazy things start looking not-as-crazy.
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By posting that, you knew you would be modded up, and not down.
this sort of legislative thinking is the natural product of electing liberals into office
Do you know how few liberals there are? I mean real liberals, not the moderates that are called liberals as a slur. A true liberal, Paul Wellstone for instance, truly believe that as a society, we can be better, and that we should strive for that. A true liberal is not the democrats currently
Doubleyew Tee Eff, Mate (Score:5, Insightful)
They shouldn't have any authority as to what goes on inside a student's home. In fact, they shouldn't have any authority what goes on outside of their campus.
Home? That should be the parents domain. Now, if the parents go and actually ask the school for help, well that's different...same thing goes with the student, if he asks for the school's help then they should help.
Unless they are asked for their assistance, school's should have ZERO input on what goes on OUTSIDE of their campus. The only time I would disagree with that is if something is happening, the parents are unaware, and the child wont tell them.
too late (Score:2)
Oh, but they do, at least in the US.
You can be visited by a truancy officer if your kid isn't at school, or is observed outside of school during school hours. Your child can be taken into state custody by CPS if they think something "isn't right". Families are often harassed for home schooling their children. Believe me, America's public school syst
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Think again chap (Score:2)
http://www.google.com/search?q=disrupt+school+envi ronment [google.com]
Student Press Law Center [splc.org]
"Schools always had the ability to regulate speech and actions that disrupt the educational environment," [sayeth the Principle of a highschool]
Everyone
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Now, if he threatens to beat him up at school tomorrow, then the school should intervene because ***gasp*** it's at school.
You calling me a bitch on the phone doesn't stop me from going to trig class.
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By 'right' do you mean "provided free of charge, if necessary"? If so, by what method are victims selected to fund the exercise of this right?
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Ugh (Score:5, Informative)
+5, Sad (Score:2)
Does this mean there should be regulations? Eh. I don't think that's the logical conclusion. It just made me kind of sad to
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People want other people to acknowledge and like them.
That one sentence describes what bullying is all about. Here is a basic guide to bullying (I am using male descriptors for the victim):
1) Find a person that don't have many friend
Damn ACLU (Score:3, Insightful)
Give me a friggin break! Since when is bullying protected under free speech rights? What the hell is NOT protected under free speech? Can I smoke at work as a protest against the proletariat? Can I smack around some ACLU lawyers to show my displeasure with NAMBLA? Would the ACLU protect my right to do so? Could 9-11 be considered "Protest Terrorism"?
I love the Bill of Rights more than the next guy, but the ACLU needs to get a friggin grip!
Re:Damn ACLU (Score:4, Insightful)
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Bullying can include threats, slander and/or attacks. For example, years ago on an old dialup BBS, someone sent me an ASCII bomb that hosed my computer so bad it had to be restarted. While I saw it as a learning experience and laughed it off, others may not be so thick skinned. Dialup BBS's are gone, but I understand modern equivalents can be used for ev
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Of course, if those terms aren't defined or aren't illegal, then I'd agree with Mr. Brown that it would be difficult to define without infringing on first amendment rights. If you read
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Perhaps you could explain why you think this is not a free speech issue?
Re:Damn ACLU (Score:5, Insightful)
smoking isn't speech.
Can I smack around some ACLU lawyers to show my displeasure with NAMBLA?
physical assault isn't speech.
Could 9-11 be considered "Protest Terrorism"?
blowing up buildings isn't speech.
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Also While I agree with the ACLU here I think they are being hypocritical because I can't think of an organization more against free speech. They just classify it as hate spe
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Hate speech? Racial slurs? Slander? Is there a difference between calling someone "shorty" and calling someone a "(insert your most vile racial slur here)"?
(of course, I assume we are talking about verbal bullying and not the weggie kind)
Stupid Stupid STUPID (Score:4, Insightful)
There are laws for slander, libel, and other manner of social discord that allow us to deal with such problems already. The fact that the Internet and computers have added a new dimension to society does not mean that we need new laws. We simply need to revise current laws to include this new dimension.
That it happens in a school social setting is not new, as was stated, but the lack of training for students as to what constitutes libel, slander, or other actions that could result in litigation or penalties is sad.
Education is what is needed, not regulation. Less government, not more. Intelligence, not money will go the furthest towards eliminating such problems.
Yes, I believe that if they break a law on the Internet, it is a civil courts place to punish that person rather than the school's place. No more he said, she said. Lets have them show the judge and let the judge decide if there is anything to punish. Perhaps a special court to streamline such cases, but make it court. Punishment is then meted out in a legally binding way rather than arbitrary decisions of school leaders.
Punishments for minors is not a bad thing as schools, parks, and other public places need cleaning and looking after. A little community service gives them time to think about what they did.
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Oh give me a fucking break.
Students shouldn't be "educated" on how to become even more litigious than we already are. What people should be educated on is how to *personally* deal with the problems they face and how to not take out anger and persecution on others.
Learning to deal with these pro
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Oh give me a fucking break.
Students shouldn't be "educated" on how to become even more litigious than we already are. What people should be educated on is how to *personally* deal with the problems they face and how to not take out anger and persecution on others.
This is why we need life recorde
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Makes much more sense to arrest him for harrassment, assault or stalking and just make him do time.
Much more logical.
Less protections for the "bullies" (Score:2)
Kid fucks somebody's reputation over (and it can be very, very bad) with lies... nail 'em for slander.
Kid sucker-punches somebody and knocks out some teeth, nail 'em for assault
While kids are perhaps too young to have a firm grip on some of the finer points of law (hell, even most adults would), most of the shit that goes on should be understandable as illegal (and not just "oh, that's bad) by anyone past the fourth
Hypocrites (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not free speech... (Score:2)
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Bullying (Score:2)
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Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
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I'm not saying it doesn't "work" - yes, you CAN train a dog through pain. But with a little more patience and a lot more intelligence, you can train a dog with positive reinforcement
Part of growing up (Score:2)
Dealing with adversity, frustration, rejection and so on is part of the process of growing up and the creation of psychological defense mechanisms.
By over protecting our children we are, in fact, under-preparing them to deal with an often ignored fact of life: it's HARD.
But, then again, it will help support the world thriving antidepressant industry...
Online bullying? (Score:2)
The myth will not die apparently (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullies are part of growing up. It's part of growing up for the persons being bullied and the bullies themselves. It is not evil behavior that must be erradicated because another Columbine could happen again. It's natural behavior that occurs in all human cultures and many in the animal kingdom as well. Those that are the victims of bullies have great lessons to learn that will serve them well later in life. Those that are bullies also have lessons to learn. I can't imagine anything more destructive that taking kids in their learning years and secluding them from this natural behavior. Sometimes kids need to touch a hot stove to understand cause and effect.
Trivial solution... (Score:3, Insightful)
Cyber-bullying is only a problem because it leads to verbal bullying and that leads to physical bullying. I could not care less about kids calling me names when I was in school. That sort of "bullying" means nothing. What I had a problem with was being pushed, tripped, pinched, punched, and kicked. When one kid assaults another kid, $500 fine to their parents. I guarantee that will solve the problem damn quick.
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More than likely, the $500 fine will result in the parents physically taking it out on the child, who will then have even more motivation to beat on someone else. More secretively, without witnessess.
All this about bullies being protected... (Score:2)
Can anyone point me to a real example where a bullying victim became the one punished for standing up for themselves where it was legislated? At the school I went to, both parties got equally busted, so if someone picked a fight with you, you may as well practically
Bullying Nerds is a Bad Idea (TM) (Score:2)
Cyberbullying is avoidable (Score:2)
Settle this the old fashioned way... (Score:2)
Geez, no wonder the world's the way it is today. Everybody's running home to mommy instead of learning to deal with it like adults: gang up on the bleeding sod and beat the living crap out of him!
Bunch of sissies, the lot of ya.
Anonymity. Key to Internet Social Problems. (Score:2)
By keeping
Does this mean they are going to do something? (Score:3, Insightful)
corporal punishment in schools (Score:2)
Makes it Worse (Score:3, Insightful)
I suspect other people on slashdot were bullied as children as well and you know the one thing guaranteed to make it worse is ineffective appeals for help from authorities. If the kids at your school find out you went to the police over some Items things are likely to get much worse. Everything and more than can happen to you online can just happen to you in school.
Disgustingly our schools can't even (or won't) control real physical teasing and picking on. Why not start with trying to deal with bullying in the context where the school has much greater control and knowledge rather than online? Ohh right, it's because this law is less about making children's lives better as it is about soothing adult consciences. They can pretend the bullying isn't happening if they don't see it but if it's on a web page they feel guilty.
If you want to fix (mitigate really) the problem of bullying and teasing you need to change some fundamental structural features of teacher/parent incentives. Right now there is strong disincentive for the teachers to really do anything about bullying. Even though the teachers might know who is doing the bullying they rarely have proof and punishing the offenders without it risks great flak from their parents or maybe even a lawsuit. Also once they involve themselves in the situation they create all sorts of problems for themselves (potential lawsuit if things go bad b/c they have shown they knew about the issue). Even with the best intentions in the world teachers, being only human like the rest of us, will ignore or 'not notice' bullying they know is happening but can't see or worse ineffectively impose minor punishments that, like this law, just make the situation worse.
Not bullying/teasing is like being polite. Any attempt to teach it by legalistic formal rules will just encourage the bad behavior elsewhere. However, just as parents can teach politeness by punishing for sassy tones and other subtle types of impoliteness that violate no legalistic rule bullying could be prevented by punishing the bullies whenever you knew they had done wrong, whether you caught them in the act or not.
In order to deter bullying teachers need to fear parental complaints less and have a stronger incentive to stop the behavior. Basically we need a change in attitude where teachers are held just for the bullying that happens in their classes as for any punishment they might dish out. If we can't stop the pressure on teachers from outrage parents of punished children maybe we should make teachers legally liable for bullying that happens in their classroom to even things out despite the obvious problems with this idea. Perhaps instead we should remove local control of schools short circuiting the influence of parents on the school and hence teachers?
Frankly I'm not sure how to change the current incentive balance toward stopping bullies. I just know that something needs to be done and it isn't more ineffective legalistic attempts to clamp down on one aspect of the problem.
Just another law, waiting to be misapplied (Score:2)
Well of course (Score:2)
Next up, a bill to regulate the TIDES.
Ballmer... (Score:2)
Good. They could start with Steve Ballmer [slashdot.org].
Psycho Revenge (Score:3, Interesting)
The next morning $bully tries a half dozen times but can't unlock his locker. Finally the principal comes with the bolt cutters and snips off the lock. Oh no! the locker is empty. All the textbooks? Gone. The notes and assignments and the essay he had been writing? Gone. His metalwork project? Gone. Gym clothes, $100 Nike's, calculator? Gone. Everything gone.
Did it stop the bullying? Not as far as I can remember. Did we feel better? Oh yes indeed.
Re:is it bullying when your frost piss is -1 ed? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hit back - Lord of the Flies (Score:2)