MS Seeks Patent For Repossessing School Computers 299
theodp writes "Microsoft has applied for a patent for 'securely providing advertising subsidized computer usage.' The application describes how face-recognition webcams and CAPTCHAs can be used in schools to ensure that computer users are paying attention to ads, and the recourse of 'disabling or even repossessing the computer' if they are not."
Typical Slashdot garbage (Score:3, Informative)
um, no? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:um, no? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:um, no? (Score:4, Insightful)
You forgot the word "yet" on the end of that sentence.
This post brought to you by Scope mouthwash.
There is a valid usage (Score:3, Informative)
Consider determining whether students are paying attention to the course material, or the chat window they popped up...
After all, I've yet to see a school-provided "secure" computer that wasn't cracked by one or more students within a month. The crackers are always able to get through any reasonable security measures, including innocuous password cracker disks, booting from another image to install banned software, etc.
The only "secure" systems I've actually seen forced a weekly image down the throat
Re:um, no? (Score:5, Insightful)
Teachers are supposed to be teaching a fair and objective view of history. Microsoft is supposed to be making money any way possible, like any good organization. Students are supposed to be thwarting any possible system to the bitter end.
So the students whip out the same magic marker they used to thwart the CD DRMs of yonder age, and they mark the cams so that MS thinks they are using them.
I hate Microsoft, and now it's official. I was actually on the fence prior to this Slashdot article. Now my mind is made up!
Thanks Slashdot!
Re:um, no? (Score:5, Insightful)
If there is a new low, lower than forcing kid at school looking at ads, which is an obvious example of brainwashing, it is currently unimaginable to me.
On one hand, we have Micosoft with this technology; on the other, my professor in semiotics and semantics is trying to ban all the ads from our college, including the free newspaper stand (on account of too many ads in the free newspapers).
Now, I don't really agree with that professor, though I do mind the amount of ads, because we live in the information age (or so we can hear it repeated over and over again) and we have to learn how to deal with ads and other junk information... and one of the ways of dealing with it is bloody ignoring it; I, for one, am most of the time only aware that yes, there was an ad on that page, but I haven't the foggiest as to what for...
However, forcing users to look at ads, especially schoolchildren, is forcing unwanted information down their throats. Well, eyes, actually, but you see my point.
I'm disgusted.
And I welcome any way to subvert such technologies.
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mfh bought his slashdot id on ebay (Score:2)
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Pardon me, but there are possible ways that are also illegal ones.
Illegal in europe (Score:3, Interesting)
In France, public schools aren't allowed to give material "sponsorized by [whatever]" to students.
It hasn't been enforced very well up until now, but MS-Computers that force kids to watch adds is sure to stir up enough noise in the media to attract attention.
One more of those Microsoft's stupid moves that encourage people to pursue the migration to OSS that is already very active in EU.
(insert r
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Assuming you meant "corporation" and not "organization", I have to disagree with your assertion. The primary responsibility of any corporation is serving the society which granted it its existence via its corporate charter. Making money is secondary to that. The problem in our society today is that most people forget the first part because the enforcers of the law are either spineless or bribed into never revoking corpo
Re:um, no? (Score:4, Informative)
Did you even read the patent?
Yes, I did. It refers in part to a common owner, for example, a business or school [emphasis mine].
[From the grandparent] Why ... would anyone want to use this?
Schools that believe they are strapped for cash do. Several years ago, our kids got McDonald's ads disguised as class exercises. For example, if you buy a Big Mac and fries for such and such prices, what is the total? All illustrated with logos and characters. Teachers would remove the sheets from a child's curriculum upon request, but despite ongoing complaints, administrators ignored the general problem until Consumer Reports reported the practice. There have also been subsidized soft drink machines and TV. They will keep trying and we must continue to object.
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Once again, you forgot to the word "yet" at the end of that first sentence. With the way the patent system has already demonstrated it is broken, what with granting individuals patents on such modern breakthroughs as the wheel and forks, do have any doubt this will become a patent in the end?
Schools with no money. (Score:4, Insightful)
After all, as long as taxes are lowered who cares?
Re:Schools with no money. (Score:5, Interesting)
If we treat education like some service, optional, profitable, exploitable, then we will eventually get degredation over time, and the quality of education will drop. With that, the investment in the school will drop, and what do you know, education fucking drops some more.
Education is the only thing (technology is derived from the knowledge education provides), that separates our society from those of the primative past. If we treat education as anything but the highest concern, then we have failed our ancestors to learn from the past and prevent the problems of the past from manifesting now.
So, yes I fucking care.
BTW, I was ranting, but I'm not mad at the parent or anyone in particular.
Ja? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ja? (Score:5, Funny)
Oh yay. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sheesh. I guess that's what happens when you don't own the hardware. Although I swear I keep expecting that one of these days I'm going to open the box for a mainboard, have to cut some tape to get the box open, and find a note inside that reads:
End User License Agreement
By opening this box you agree to the terms of this agreement...
I'm in a bad mood today.
As long as it's crackable... (Score:5, Insightful)
The PC marketplace happened nearly by accident, through what would today be called hardware piracy by OEMs seeking to undercut IBM's monopoly over the PC architecture. You know the history, I'm sure.
The best innovation happens when engineers are free to innovate and motivated to do so. DRM, driver signing, authentication, keys, patents, licenses... these are all hinderences, concessions made to preserving the status quo, to protecting Big Money. The grey market drove the PC revolution, the little guys. Now the people who benefitted from that want to become and stay some sort of new IBM by controlling the architecture through crypto. The irony is palpable.
The crackers, the hardware hackers, they are today's heroes, as much as the IBMBIOS revengineers were way back when. They keep the wildcards in play, the market free. Vista touts security... it's not just security from worms, or viruses they're aiming for, it's security for Microsoft against the crackers that keep the playing field open, and the DRM behemoth at bay.
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But that's just obvious. If you were a 'little guy' who took over/became the new 'big guy' you'd be extra aware of the vulnerabilities of your position, and would take major care to secure it. You'd know first hand how you got where you were and what you exploited, and would make sure that it doesn't happen to you, but you protected if it does.
As long as it's BSable... (Score:2, Insightful)
Sez you! [wayne.edu]
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However, if the specs are not open, the driver/decoder/whatever will never be as good because you just don't know all the details, it will allways lag behind the big company's driver, every little change in the big company's driver will need to be reverse engineered again to see what it all was about
Why advertise to someone (Score:5, Insightful)
who can't afford a 100-200$ computer ? what are you going to sell them ?
of course the solution is simple in regard to children, simply forbid advertising of any kind that is directly targeted at a minor
people who prey or exploit kids need help, 9mm help
Re:Why advertise to someone (Score:5, Insightful)
who can't afford a 100-200$ computer ? what are you going to sell them ?
>>
Based on a quick survey of any block of inner city America, that would probably be liquor, cigarettes, payday loans, and basic necessities. I'd hate to live in that sort of neighborhood, but giving the choice between living there with a computer and living there without, hey, I already have to pass liquor advertising on the way to work. If I see a little more in the privacy of my own home while studying to find a job to Get The Heck Outta Here that won't kill me.
>>
simply forbid advertising of any kind that is directly targeted at a minor
>>
Why not just take away kid's right to buy things. Its much simpler to enforce than figuring whether that advertising is directly targeted or not (c.f. Joe Camel, WWF-anything, or Cartoon Network -- the intersection of things which interest adults and kids alike is pretty wide), accomplishes the same objective, and could also be enforced with 9mm help. Of course, we'd think you were a crazy Communist nutball if you suggested it, but thats only because commerce is a perfectly legitimate thing and that children, have real (if qualified) rights to engage in commerce in the same manner that they have real (if qualified) rights to engage in speech. Oh noes, someone might try to influence the opinions they speak or influence what products they purchase! Well, great news, we have these things called "parents", who have vastly more influence and can deprive the child of this thing called "money" without which advertising is pretty much impotent.
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At least in Portland, poverty seems to be associated with some of the suburbs. Some of the most expensive homes are in the center of the city.
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"WANT TO HAVE A COMPUTER WITHOUT ADS? CLICK HERE!"
Even worse (for the low income people) is that it will quickly (d)evolve into them paying per day/week/month for "ad-less" computing, and over a very short period of time, they will have paid more for ad-less computing.
On the possible plus side, it may get computers into homes where there wouldn't tr
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BS, BS, BS, BS, and more BS (Score:2, Insightful)
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The patent mentions "school" exactly once, and is using it to just provide an example as to where it could be used. ("The policy may be directed to a single computer and thereby a single user or subscriber. Alternately, the policy may extend to a group of computers and correspondingly to a common owner, for example, a business or school.")
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The summary adds sooo much stuff that the patent barely hints at.
Just because it's labeled Microsoft doesn't mean it is ALWAYS bad.
Go 'way (Score:5, Funny)
Besides, the article is so stupid it should be modded off topic.
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Hi! Welcome to slashdot, enjoy your stay!
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Why would a company create something to enforce students to watch ads and not learn....
Money. Duh.
Even if Corporation A takes the high road and chooses not to exploit children, it's only a matter of time before Corporation B does, becomes more competitive, and forces Corp. A into a position where they must also consider exploiting children.
Capitalism has its upsides, this is one of its downsides.
Yea, that makes perfect sense when most children these days don't have the funds to buy at pizza if they wanted to.
"Daddy! I want to go to McDonalds!"
"Mommy, I *need* Pokemon now!!!"
(10 years later)
"I don't know why, but I *really* want to try Camel cigarettes."
If you don't think advertisers target children, you
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But they are learning. About the glorious company that is Microsoft! Now, comrades! Let us play the Microsoft National Anthem.
[starts playing special approved version of Rolling Stones' "Start Me Up" with symphonic accompaniment]
Timely? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Timely? Competition lockout! (Score:2)
It may have just attracted attention, but the reason for the patent may be less of an issue as the mountain it's made out to be. It could be nothing more than preventing some upstart such as BE/OS or someone else like IBM with OS/2 from providing computers with an advertising revenue stream in competition to the MS stranglehold on the desktop. Maybe they don't want another i-Opener on the market.
"We have free computers fo
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In Soviet classrooms... (Score:5, Funny)
Good Idea... (Score:2)
RedHat did this idea actually, by patenting a DRM mechanism and vowing not to use it.
Is "Armed Robbery" patented yet? (Score:2)
Carbonated Beverages and Behaviour Modification (Score:5, Insightful)
1) $1.00
2) $1.25
3) $1.39
with
A) Work Vending Machine
B) School Vending Machine
C) Grocery Store
If you said 1-B, 2-A, and 3-C, you're Right!
What does that mean? Exploit the students. Get them addicted to soda, (We called it 'coke' where I come from and for good reason), profit insanely at their completely disposable income, and they'll continue to provide for you the rest of your corporate career!
This patent is sickening. Schools currently use IE, but as they switch to ad-blockable content (anything available for IE) then there is SO much profit-potential lost it's absurd.
We (I and several other individuals) mentor about 30 HS students. It is TRULY amazing how much their minds are like sponges- and how easy it can be to inadvertently modify their behavior. An unkind word, a stern glance, and the next thing you know they want nothing to do with that topic. It's insane. The mentors themselves end up having to walk this twisted line of professional dedication (our backgrounds) and playing psychologist ("How does that make you feel").
Let's face it- the whole point of this is about money, and cash is king. The brains are just too wired for this behaviour (Nestle's Chocobot hour) to be anything but profitable thru very specific programming.
They'll get the patent..... and it'll be up to us to fight the intrusion into the school. Here's a hint- it'll be over a decade, nice and slow, thru 'gifts' of OS and computers...
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You need to find another grocery store.
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Pop (at least here) is most expensive in schools and on college campuses. A 12oz. can goes for between $.60 and $.80. The same [brand name] can costs $.20 in a 12-pack at the grocery on sale, which they are on every other week.
It's nice to be able to blame readily available products, but there are other influences.
Violence can be just as addictive as sugary foods and caffeine. At my university there are plenty of assholes, and plenty of loose chairs. Have I ever beaten anyone with a chair? Nop
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Actually, his price scale was accurate if talking about a mini-mart, chilled. The mini-mart price of soda tends to be about the same as supermarket 2 liter unchilled.
Grocery stores tend to have the big names on sale. Any non-big brand tends to go for full price, which can float at a
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Some people teach their children about things called CONSEQUENCES to their actions, and that is a Good Thing(tm).
And advertisers do their best to undermine your teaching.
What kind of parent are you that you'd think it's perfectly fine for you to have your best parenting efforts being actively countered by monied interests who have absolutely no concern whatsoever for the welfare of your children? Parenting is hard enough as it is *without* having to worry about addictive substances with no redeeming value, and, in fact, unwanted negative effects, being shoved in their faces?
Would you be fine with a crack[*] dealer se
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After your first week or two of free soda you get tired of the sugar and start drinking water, juice, milk, etc.
Heathen! Heathen! Quick, someone take away his geek license!
On a slightly more serious note, the engineering shop I work at runs on liquid caffeine. Diet, sugared, or coke C2 (actually, they stopped selling that in southern California, apparently, which is a problem because it's the only thing our VP liked...) -- it seems everyone drinks either soda or coffee in copious quantity. It's am
repossessing (Score:2)
How many school would even sign up for this? I did read about some thing like this a few years ago in pcworld and it said that the school could not install any software and they had to open up the lab to the people who gave them the computers for there own uses. It also used SAT internet. I think it was called zapme or something like that.
Channel One (Score:2)
Many here will remember Whittle Communications.
Whittle's specialty was marketing to the captive audience.
Familiar magazines disappeared from your doctor's waiting room to be replaced by Whittle's glossy, content-free substitutes. Whittle was never subtle. It was all or nothing.
Schools were offered free sattelite dishes, educational programming, VCRs, and other high-tech goodies.
In exchange, students would be required to watch the twelve minute commercial Chan [wikipedia.org]
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also schools like to have there systems locked down what kind of access does the ad software need?
Can the schools keep ads that don't belong in school off of them?
Exclusivety Protectoin? (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of the children? (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary ( and link ) say nothing about schools. Putting that in the title is egging for a flame war. It makes you ( the submitter and editor ) look like an idiot.
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Excuse me? How about: Putting that in the title is egging for a flame war. It makes you look like an idiot.
Coming from the "Germans love David Hasselhod" sig guy, that's rich.
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FWIW, *DON'T* read the patent if you're a programmer. Reading patents on software can lay you open to increased fines. I just did a find on schools, and it specifically mentions schools as a target for the patent. I can't claim to know what the patent covers, since I intentionally didn't read it.
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New MS slogan: (Score:2)
Try the Pavlov method (Score:5, Funny)
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The summary tricks us, history repeats itself (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because it's about Microsoft, doesn't mean you have to buy it. Sure, you want to believe it; I want to believe it. But if the trick works on us now, it'll be used in the future, to position you against issues you would stand for otherwise. One of the noblest actions a man can take is not take a public stand against something he knows nothing about. Don't comment on this until you RTFA.
This is the Net-Zero/PeoplePC model (Score:2)
It boils down to this: no commercial product or service is free...either pay in cash or in time/privacy/inconvenience. Of cource, you do not NEED windows and MS office, Linux and Mac
Re:This is the "Linux is good for everything" mode (Score:2)
Reader Rabbit doesn't work on Linux, as far as I know. I also don't know of any schools that use it. Linux does have several educational packages...generally the teacher would need to prepare the inputs as a part of her lesson prep. It probably wouldn't be much (any?) more difficult than such is already.
You don't really WANT a prepackaged thing like Reader Rabbit in a school room. You want some
Left hand vs right hand? (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole reason for Microsoft giving free computers to schools in the first place was to get them used to the Windows OS, and hopefully prevent them from wanting to switch to Linux. It wasn't supposed to be just a short-term revenue stream.
If they actually use this, schools will start saying no thanks to their "free" computers - which will, in the long term, be a serious blow to Microsoft.
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Excellent patent! (Score:3, Interesting)
- is
actually fairly innovative and unique. Now to the best of my knowledge, patents aren't supposed to be concerned with the morality of the application, but the originality and non-obviousness of it.Microsoft should be hung out to dry for this, but from a patent aspect, it's valid.
Re:Excellent patent! (Score:4, Insightful)
Good (Score:2)
I thought of this (Score:5, Interesting)
This situation to me highlights some of the annoying aspects of patents. First, if I had billions of dollars of cash lying around, I would have this patent (would've applied without a second thought). How then, is this system helping individual innovators rather than big corporations? Second, isn't it clear that the patent system isn't promoting R and D in this particular case?
On the plus side, I do believe a site has recently popped up that does what I wanted to do, and they probably have implemented a comparable system. Therefore, MS might lose this patent on the grounds of prior art, which is a plus.
Also, I wonder whether MS intends to charge for the webcams being provided, since they are required for the face tracking, but the schools might not (and probably don't) want them.
In Soviet Russia (Score:2)
Great.. (Score:4, Funny)
quizes in school everywhere. (Score:2)
"A method and apparatus for assuring delivery of paid advertising to a user may involve asking a question about an advertisement or requiring data about the advertisement to be entered."
So now the ad providers quiz you and the teachers?
Good idea (Score:2)
Isn't this too obvious to be patentable? (Score:2)
Everybody is concentrating on how offensive this is, but there is another issue. Isn't this all perfectly obvious? How can this be patentable? Finding out if people are paying attention by quizzing them on what they were supposed to be watching is an old schoolteacher trick. As far as I can see from skimming the patent application there is nothing remotely innovative in the technology they use to do this.
Who still thinks MS isn't evil? (Score:5, Insightful)
They're making is very clear that they are achieving the kind of critical mass where they will act with impunity.
It isn't enough that they make an OS that exploits people at home, now they're seeking to patent a way to enforce it on students.
So how long before this kind of thinking migrates to television?
"We're sorry _Survivor_ is withheld for (countdown)min. until the next commercial break because you muted three or more commercials. In order to ensure an uninterrupted broadcast you must maintain at least a 25 db. audio output and not avoid the screen. Thank you."
Or better yet,
Ben checks his online bills and sees a slightly larger cable bill.
"Hey, honey. Why is the cable bill $20 more...oh crap, it says there's a fee for _Subsidy-Avoidance_ WTF is that?"
"Remember when I told you that if we removed that feedback box they'd tag on a fee?"
"I don't get it..." He scratches his head and looks at the TV.
"Remember how our subscription rates for Office went up because we didn't agree to run an ad validator? It's the same thing." She says as Ben looks for something to kick and starts wondering where he put that extra cable box.
At least they aren't trying to tell us that this will keep us safe...yet.
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Please. They are doing no such thing. They're not talking about randomly disabling peoples' operating systems or something. This is about a situation where somebody agrees to get a free (or, perhaps largely discounted) computer in exchange for watching ads. The catch is that they can't just say "oh, sure!" and laugh their asses off while they don't watch squat, because of the system Microso
Prior art (Score:2)
Of course, when my teachers did it, the point was to teach me stuff that would be useful later on. Like being able to spell words so I don't sound like an idiot, or add up numbers reliably. With this, the point is to boost some corporation's profit margin by pushing products on impressionable
Schools? (Score:2)
The patent only mentions "school" once, in the context that it can be used "at a business or school".
So if a location opts to install ad-funded computers, then what's so wrong with that?
Obligatory Simpsons quote (Score:5, Funny)
Krabappel: Who can tell me the atomic weight of bolognium?
Martin: Ooh
Krabappel: Correct. I would also accept snacktacular.
Yellow Journalism Much? (Score:5, Insightful)
- [ . . . ] several response are possible, from noting a user's record but taking no action, to a follow up communication with the user, to disabling or even repossessing the computer.[ . . . ]
- [ . . . ] Alternately, the policy may extend to a group of computers and correspondingly to a common owner, for example, a business or school.[ . . . ]
Shame on you, submitter & editor. This is NOTHING but sensationalism. The notion of "repossessing" the computer is used as an example of a step that could be taken if the advertising is not being paid attention to. Since the terminal is financed by that advertising, it would make sense to stop paying for it and take it back for redeployment elsewhere. If I'm an advertiser, I'd prefer not to keep paying for a billboard that nobody pays attention to.The notion of these computers being used by a school is used as an example where the patent discusses tying certain criteria to multiple computers owned by a common owner, "for example," a business or school. So, say you provide some of these adveritising-funded public terminals to an organization, such as a business or school, what you're doing is tying the policy for multiple systems to a common owner.
But the summary & title make it sound like MSFT is targeting school computers as if they could just swoop in, snatch them all up, and resell them on the black market. This is one of the lamest attempts at MSFT-bashing I've seen. Bash them if you must, but for god's sake, bash them for something that's actually a REAL issue, not this crap. What's next? "MSFT submits patent for punching babies, snapping bra straps of young mothers?!"?
I'd say I expect better of the editors, at least, but well... it IS slashdot.
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BTW it is fairly recent (patent pending [quividi.com]) so I can understand that MS is genuinely unaware of prior art from a small business.
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Easier Way (Score:2)
one word, (Score:2)
horrifying
I always thought ... (Score:5, Funny)
Wow! (Score:2)
I think I seen this before... (Score:2)
Well me lit'le droogies, I thinks it's gonna be a wee bit of the in'n'out in yer frontal lobes, an if ya tries ta stop watchin', we're gonna shock yer yarbles till we smell smoke!
Genda
There is prior art (Score:2)
Buisness as usual, but more blatently. (Score:2)
Bad (Score:2, Interesting)
1. You're dealing with forcing individuals in their formative years, to look at advertisements which have been pyshologically designed to influence spending / desire.
2. I'm sure the least amount of effort will be put into controlling the content and reviewing the moral implications of such a system if the patent is granted.
3. Microsoft is displaying it's bottom line here, which obviously is not about helping out schools who need the help and promoting education, but the fact
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I disagree. Getting a computer is not that difficult. They are so commonplace that it is not that difficult to find an older model for free (Craigslist, family, streets, etc.) Four of my computers were obtained in these ways. Ads slow down computers (consider that since they are free, the hardware is probably not that good), and annoy the user into potentially giving up computers.
Also, paying ads does not help in the long run, because you never own it. Paying some amount a month is a lot better of an opti
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The problem with that is that in order for the rental company to make a profit, the time you will have to use ads could be as long as several years.
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No,not at all. It would be the exact same thing if such a company forced you to look at the ad while driving, and enforced this with surveillance gadgets.
cheap Macs for schools (Score:2)
Apple's education discounts are generally about 30% off list price, sometimes lower for certain promotions or bulk discounts. I remember Apple selling a "six pack" of Macintosh Classic computers for something like $600 each, when the regular retail list price was $999 (or about $799 when Wal-Mart was selling them just before the Classic II came out). The deepest education discount I've ever seen w
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Why put a 32 bit pci card in a pci-x 133 slot? when there other pci slots.
Why run nt4 on p4 based duel xeon systems?
Why run your pos system on 98 inside of cases that you can cut your hand on because the case in real small.
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More like a little from column A, a little from column B.
How little is a little? A lot.
And don't assume there are only two columns!
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They front money, they let you use the machine, in exchange they want you to look at the ads that they are selling to recoup their up front costs, they enforce the deal and pull the computer if you don't do as asked.
Yeah, that really sucks, it's a stupid deal, and a dumb way of enforcing it. We can come up with better than that. But, your freedom is not being messed with. You *choose* to use the subsidized computer where you have to watc