MIT, Boston College Refuse DMCA Subpoenas 668
phreakmonkey writes "Here's an interesting change of pace- According to today's Boston Globe, MIT and Boston College have both refused to turn over the identities of students to the RIAA under subpoenas. Citing failure of compliance with court rules and student privacy concerns, both colleges have refused to give out the names, addresses, or phone numbers of students based on their Kazaa screen names and IP addresses. I wonder how long the schools will be able to keep the RIAA's pack of lawyers at bay..."
More than just a bump in the cobblestone road... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And the RIAA will say "never mind" and drop it, if it looks to be heading that way. They have a bully mentality, and no stomach for a legal showdown at the OK Corral.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure that most people want to know what is happening with respect to the DMCA and the RIAA being annoying to all of us... But what is the RIAA or equivalents doing in the rest of the world along the same vein? I live in Canada and use random P2P utilities often. What are they going to try up here?
And that leads to another issue, if they don't bother people in other countries, what happens when people figure out how to use locations in other countries to hide their actions? Hackers do it, I've seen that plenty, what happens when the P2P downloaders figure out how to do it and automate it. Or create zombie programs that basically turn any infected computer into a P2P forwarder, like the spam virii that are out there these days?
And then there will be the day when something like waste or freenet will be common... what do they do then? I may chose to let the software and network store a certain amount of information on my system, but I don't know what is in there, and cannot find out. Will I still be liable?
This random collection of (possibly badly placed) lawsuits will definatly lead to people just finding a way to stop the lawsuits. Lawsuits are annoying, and people find ways to avoid things that annoy them.
As I said about BT, if someone started to get a good setup that used Freenet to get the
Anyway, just my thoughts...
Canada is safe (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Almost every college I have been to behaves a bit like a small city - sometimes it's own state - with it's own set of rules, regulations, and policies.
Most also have their own policing organizations and post office. What is the point?
The point is that this may be slightly a matter of juristiction, and I'm certain that at least the college that invented Kerebos sees it that way. They police themselves - watching their own networks, and work very hard to ensure that their citizens are protected, and that what is private remains so.
They also discipline them when they do something they shouldn't.
This may not be legal reasoning for MIT and Boston, but it sure is ethical grounds. It is not in either MIT or Boston's best interest to have massive file-swapping, and as tech-savvy colleges, they certainly limit it.
Does anyone know of any cases where students rights where protected from outside litigation because schools were taking care of the problems?
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:4, Informative)
And this is important because it's finally a large corporation without the backchannel communications and handshakes that is willing to stand up to the recording cartel.
It got me to thinking "What can I do to support Verizon's case?" (even though I happen to work for one of their biggest competitors). I asked a few lawyer friends and they told me that I could file an amicus ("friend of the court") brief directly with the court hearing the appeal but unless I was representing a lot of other people from a major organization...it would pretty much be spinning my wheels. They said the best thing to do is to write letters to the editors of every paper in my area laying out the whole situation and the potential risk to our privacy. Even though federal judges are appointed and not elected, public opinion can often sway the legal interpretation that federal judges adopt (after all, nobody likes to be unpopular and flamed in the press) and it also influences future appointments.
So, eloquent Slashdot posters with a real understanding of the case...take your next Slashdot post and | lp -d editor. I know I will.
--K.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite all this battling against the RIAA's lawsuits, though, it seems to me that the real issue here (which isn't being addressed) is not file sharing but everything the RIAA stands for and represents. Why isn't anyone attacking their price-fixing and essential monopoly of the industry? I know there was a lawsuit against them for the price-fixing, I believe, but I for one am not seeing any changes.
Obviously, I'm not the most informed on the details of the whole issue, but is it possible that the RIAA's big scare tactics and legal onslaught against file sharers is just to take peoples' eyes off of the real problem?
Err, call me an idiot... (Score:5, Insightful)
The real issue, why BC and MIT said "Hey, wait a minute!" is Internet privacy. I agree with the previous poster who gave the nice example of the telephone service -- we expect (and should, given the tenets of the US) an assumed privacy in our communications. Once reasonable evidence is brought forth, conforming to the search and seizure laws, then communication can be monitored, and after that, the law can be brought down on the offender.
It seems to me that the RIAA is trying (and often succeeding) in skipping a step -- that of monitoring after evidence is brought forth (a la a search warrant). They're monitoring and then getting the names to prosecute.
Then again, I'm going off hearsay I read here.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Hate the RIAA? Don't like their business model and practices? Then don't do business with them! If you're a music consumer, go to clubs, buy microlabel and band-pressing CDs, swap non-RIAA mp3s, and enjoy. If you're a music producer, release your tunes through some other channel.
Why is this so hard for people to deal with?
Ownership of culture. (Score:5, Insightful)
A people's culture is a lot like food and water. And there's a huge cartel that owns most of American culture. And they keep changing the laws, so they will keep owning it forever.
This is wrong.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Instead of waiting for a case to make it to the supreme court, why not join an organization like the EFF [eff.org] and start writing letters to your senators now?
J
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Informative)
Education institutions, on the other hand, have previously existing restrictions on handling and protecting student records as defined by FERPA [ed.gov]. As the article states, MIT expresses willingness to comply with properly issued subpoenas. Essentially, these institutions are asking the courts to establish which law has primacy, FERPA or DMCA, because the current situation potentially leaves them open to lawsuits brought by students over violation of privacy as outlined in FERPA if they comply with the DMCA-based information requests.
__
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Those two Universities are at the forefront of Intellectual Property Law. If they get their faculty on board, I can assure you they have more legal firepower than Verizon. In any case, this point is moot since they don't seem like they're trying to fight it.
At least, they delayed the intrusion and they gave their students ample notice that they were going to be raided. That's not bad.
When the lambs don't lay down.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Liberty: a well armed sheep expressing his rights.
It looks like sheep have arisen. I for one...
I for one ... (Score:4, Funny)
It looks like sheep have arisen. I for one...
You gonna finish that? "I, for one, welcome our new avine overlords"?
Re:When the lambs don't lay down.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Given that encryption and similar technologies are classified as armaments, and that there have already been Internet-based attacks in wartime on civilian and military infrastructure ( see Bosnia etc ), then yes, arms have already been taken up by some.
In 18th century America, any yokel could pick up his trusty rifled musket and go fight agin the Gummint (see the Whiskey Rebellion [earlyamerica.com] etc).
In 21st century America, any haX0r can pick up her trusty laptop and go fight agin the Gummint.
I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that it's happening.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Considering MIT has a 5 billion dollar endowment, I doubt very much that the RIAA will be able to outspend them. Besides which, after a while you start getting diminishing returns when hiring lawyers; once you have a large legal team working fulltime on a case, throwing money at them doesn't do anything.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Informative)
It better explains what they are really doing.
As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violation (Score:5, Interesting)
How is it privacy infringement? You're doing something illegal (copyright infringement), you are then caught, and you are then identified. Is their a reasonable expectation of privacy when transmitting your IP address to millions of other users when using Kaazaa? Hardly.
How is it privacy infringement? You're doing something illegal (conducting illegal business on the telephone), you are then caught, and you are then identified. Is their [sic] a reasonable expectation of privacy when you are talking on the telephone on a switchboard of millions of other citizens while talking? Hardly.
One reasonably expects one's communications to be private, whether it is by mail, telephone, or internet. Even large private meetings (private business teleconferences, etc.) have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The internet is really no different, and were lawmakers and the law at all sane ISPs would have the same common carrier status afforded the Bells.
You want to arrest someone for doing something illegal on the internet? Fine. Get your subpeana, go through the standard wiretapping process (complete with court order, etc.) and then invade someone's privacy as part of an official investigation by law enforcement who are held accountable to the public.
Do not allow private corporations and their lawyers to simply invade one's electronic home and communications at will, bypassing the entire intent and letter of the reasonable search and seizure clause of the constitution, and accountable only to their own shareholders. Or, if you do advocate such obscenely undemocratic violations of people's basic civil rights to due process and privacy, do not expect any legitimacy or sympathy from the rest of us, regardless of how despicable the actions were of those you are trampling over the constitution to get.
Next you'll be arguing the police should put cameras in our homes or listen in on every phone call, simply because somewhere out there there is a dirty old man molesting a child or someone contracting a murder for hire.
"Do it for the children! Stop Crime!"
What you suggest is the digital equivelent of a camera in every home and a wiretap on every phone, and it has no place whatsoever in a free society irrespective of what crimes a few idiots (or a billion idiots) may be committing.
Constitutional safeguards and legal procedure is there for a very important reason: to afford all of us protections regardless of our guilt or innocence. A damn good thing, too, as with the current laws on the books every single one of us is guilty of breaking some law, somewhere, nearly each and every day we get out of bed. Want private thugs in pin stripe suits enforcing all those laws against you, and breaking down your door to do so?
No?
Then stop advocating unconstitutional and draconian behavior, merely because the target of your particular ire threatens your outdated business models, or offends your notions of right and wrong. Because I guarantee you, somewhere, sometimes, you are offending someone else's notion of right and wrong, and once you open up that door you too will be on the wrong end of someone else's personal or business "enforcement action," and civil government accountable to the people will have been replaced by corporate, plutocratic fascism accountable to only a few CEOs and shareholders as they trample over the rest of us.
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:3, Interesting)
Since the nature of "sharing" on Kazaa is one of offering your files to anyone who may care to download them, including the RIAA and their agents, there is no "reasonable expectation of privacy." Th
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:5, Insightful)
Your IP address isn't what's at issue here, although the RIAA's eavesdropping on a peer to peer network does have components of eavesdropping on email or other communication systems in my opinion (look to intent; the RIAA doesn't play by the rules of the system, and for a definite purpose).
The issue is whether or not we still have the sacred, black-letter constitutional requirement for a judge to approve a search warrant... or if we just gave the power of a judge to some random private entity, so that it can invade privacy all over the countryside, without any oversight, at the least provocation... at best being "corrected" later, at great expense and long after the horses are out of the barn door.
It's the whim of the RIAA now, not the judgement of a court... and that's what doesn't fly in this country. Make light of it at your peril - many, many people bled into the earth to secure this right for you. No private citizen, picking suspects at their sole discretion, should decide whose person and privacy should be violated. We have checks and balances for a very good reason.
--
Bill of Rights cramping your style? Try China!
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:5, Interesting)
OK, this is probably off-topic, but I have to point out that lots of people seem to be in favor of handing over what we think of as governmental duties to private industry. The current administration is paying off big corporate contributors with lots of juicy contracts for what were once thought of as government jobs. Take that most governmental of duties, collecting taxes. The current administration wants to give away fully one quarter of our (that's you and me, the taxpayers) delinquent accounts receivable to private contractors to collect the money. The simple idea of just hiring more government employees whose job is to collect taxes (and who do so umpteen times more efficiently than private industry) just doesn't occur to the powers-that-be. To top that off, all your computerized records at the IRS will soon be controlled by private company employees because the Office of Management and Budget has recently (illegally) revised the rules (a document named Circular A-76) for contracting out work so as to make virtually no government job safe from easy privatization. For references, just google on NTEU (one of the unions fighting this crap) and A-76.
Yes, law enforcement is being handed over to big corporations in lots of ways these days. Any suggestions for how to stem the rising tide of government-by-corporation?
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is the difference between government and private entities. It's wrong to turn over inherently governmental functions to private entities. Would you feel comfortable, for example, entrusting all the murder investigations in your area to a private corporation? Or would you feel better if those investigations were carried out by government employees who are at least nominally motivated by the pursuit of justice instead of a profit motive?
The same thing is true of tax collections. The IRS, despite all the negative (and mostly untrue) media coverage that preceded the 1998 Restructuring Act, is motivated not just to collect tax but to do so in ways that do not make a mockery of serving the common good, a concept that private entities do not grasp in any way. Look at it this way: Law enforcement should be done by the government, not private entities. Slashdotters have been pretty unanimous about that and, I think, rightly so. Well, collecting taxes is law enforcement.
Who was it who said that the power to tax was the power to destroy? Do you really feel comfortable with handing over the enforcement component of that power to any private entity?
Yep.
For most of it, I've been nonexistent. But for a substantial portion of the time I've been around, I was a tax collector.
Yep, you're absolutely right. That's why the last time Congress foolishly forced the IRS to turn over a portion of our delinquent accounts receivable to private companies for collection, those companies did such a stellar, highly motivated job of collecting money. (That's sarcasm, in case you didn't realize.) All that "piece of the action" motivation did was cause those private collectors to go ape shit. There were documented cases of telephone calls being made to debtors at 4:19 AM. The number of documented violations of the Fair Debt Collection Act were nearly uncountable. And when all was said and done, the private contractors used more man-hours at a higher cost to collect the money than the control group of government employees. The final figures indicated that IRS Revenue Officers not only collect money more efficiently than the private sector (almost THIRTY times more efficiently) but they do so without abusing debtors at all hours of the day and night and without running roughshod over their right to be treated like human beings.
Knee-jerk reactions of "The government is incompetent at everything!" are not something I can overcome with logic, so ignore this post if you wish. But the fact remains that the IRS collects debts far more efficiently and humanely than any private enterprise.
Even if that weren't true, I'd argue that it's wrong to give law enforcement power to private entities because of the abuse that inevitably happens. But you take your pick of which argument you like, the practical or the moral. I'm ready to defend both approaches.
I'll bet you can count on one finger the number of organizations that have both your SS# and a complete, itemized breakdown of everything you earned as well as near-complete insight into how you live your life and plan your finances since you entered the work force, all in one place. That one place is the IRS. Even your mortgage lender on
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:5, Insightful)
"Public internet" is a meaningless term here, just confusing the issue - you may as well talk about "public phones." The fact that people have to take precautions to secure their machines in no way relates to their _right_ to privacy - any more than the fact you have to lock your doors to keep out crooks reflects on your 4th Amendment Rights (that's "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects..." in case you're curious).
Attempting to compare accidentally publishing content on a webpage with someone reverse-engineering a communications system to eavesdrop on its participants AND allowing out-of-band personal information about them be released at someone's whim without the oversight of a judge... It doesn't fit, does it.
That's the real point of all of this. Not that you should be totally secure in your right to privacy against all other concerns, but that a court and a judge have to sign off on breaching that trust. DMCA, incredibly, gives the RIAA (just some private corporate entity) the power of a judge-and-court to arbitrarily invade your private life if (by their own determination) they suspect you've committed a (really underwhelming) crime - and that, I think, is what we're concerned about.
No matter _what_ the suspect is doing, searches at the whim of a corporate entity without the oversight of a judge... I'm sorry, there's no mincing words. it is black-letter unconstitutional, and categorically unamerican.
Re:As one who DOES NOT engage in copyright violati (Score:5, Informative)
The only penalty I could find for abusing the system is perjury for claiming to be (or represent) the copyright holder. I'm not sure if there are any penalties for making bogus claims that you infringed my copyright, but even if there are the standard I have to meet to defend myself is absurdly low.
The US congress essentially turned over actual judicial powers to anyone and everyone who claims someone is infringing their copyright.
-
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Interesting)
How bout this, the MIT student is getting sued for DOWNLOADING MP3s. What if he/she already owns the CDs in question?
Mega beers for the first person to get a subpoena form the RIAA for downloading thousands of MP3s of CDs they already own. If had any balz, I'd do it myself.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Interesting)
(Just for the sake ot argument, although I'm not arguing with you)
It didn't say downloading with the intent to share. It said downloading.
Define "distributing"?
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:4, Interesting)
If someone else commits a crime with my car, does that make me the criminal? Maybe so, if I knew about it. But then again, maybe not. My point is that there's just to much slack given to the RIAA at this point.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Interesting)
What's the difference between:
I own a CD.
I put the CD in my CD player.
Someone else accesses that CD via Cat5 cable.
and
I own a CD.
I put the CD in my CD player.
Someone else accesses that CD via 1/8" headphone cable.
They're both sharing. Will the RIAA come hunt me down because everyone I work with can listen to my CDs using headphones? Will they also hunt down the person using the headphones?
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Interesting)
I think one step further would solve it.
If I could walk into a record store and pay $12 for any 18 songs of my choosing, I'd buy CDs like they were going out of style.
The RIAA would never go for it because the dime-a-dozen-created-in-a-marketing-department boy/girl bands would never sell complete albums, nor would people be forced to buy complete albums just for one decent song.
To which I says, if it's shit
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
If somebody believes they have evidence of criminal behavior they should have to take it to a Court of Law which would then issue a subpeona or warrent. But in our New World Order big corporations merely have to finger you and you are presumed guilty. So lovely.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a good question actually. It is a violation of privacy (I've never seen that called "privacy infringement"...are you affiliated with the RIAA?) because the DMCA allows the lawyers acting on behalf of the RIAA to obtain these subpoenas without sufficient judicial oversight. They file their claims with a clerk, pay the fee, and voila! Usually, to obtain a subpoena that grants the right to violate the Fourth Amendment, one must actually prove harm sufficient enough to justify the violation of that Constitutional right to a judge. But thanks to the good ole DMCA (a copyright lawyer's bestest friend!), the quaint notion that you must actually prove your case before being granted a subpoena has been neatly side-stepped.
Hmmmm....so let's apply your logic to another set of criminal circumstances. You're doing something illegal (selling crack), you are then caught, and you are then identified. See, when it comes to selling crack, the police have to actually identify the offender first in order to obtain a warrant. (And, by the way, warrants are issued by judges...not clerks.)
I do think you have a good legal argument with your final statement but the existence of proxies nullifies it on a technical level. (Then again, how often does technical common sense actually scale with legal theories?) How many of the 871 subpoenas obtained by the RIAA will turn out to be people running open proxies on the Internet? Last I heard, we haven't made that illegal yet.
"Privacy infringement"....I do like that term. It's a nice check on the power we've given to those who are rabid in their pursuit of unsubstantiated losses due to copyright infringement.
--K.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Insightful)
The second branch of the government (you know that pesky branch that is elected by the people), has instructed the courts via legislation, that evidence of illegal downloading is, ipso facto, sufficient evidence and probable cause. Therefore, there is no need for judicial rev
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks for the info but, far from popping my bubble, you just gave it a titanium lining. So basically, you're saying that subpoenas now carry the same power as warrants...only it's a media cartel instead of law enforcement that wields it and a clerk instead of a judge that grants it.
It sure is a good thing that the second branch of government always passes perfect laws since they represent all of us. Good point about the clerk being an official of the court...that's probably necessary but if it is, their powers need to be limited. Clever hack by the media cartels and their paid-off legislators (those pesky people that get elected and then promptly accept campaign money to blow off their constituents), I'll give them that.
While I'm with you that no one branch should ever gain too much power, I question your interpretation of the balance of powers...especially in light of today's environment. Where you seem to believe that the Judicial branch has too much power, I believe that the Legislative branch has been bought off and is no longer representative of its constituents. So while you see the Judicial branch saving us from the Legislative branch, I percieve the situation from the opposite point of view.
Tyranny can come from any direction, be it clueless judges, bought-off legislators, or power-happy executives. The goal of the constitution is to make these threats sufficiently at odds enough that the end result is palatable.
--K.
Re:More than just a bump in the cobblestone road.. (Score:3, Interesting)
And you're posting as an Anonymous Coward, why?
Respect (Score:5, Insightful)
Harvard (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Harvard (Score:5, Funny)
Hopefully (Score:3, Informative)
Harvard (Score:5, Funny)
That will provide results.
Re:Harvard (Score:3, Funny)
That will provide results."
It's been my experience that no lawyer ever focuses on producing results. Rather, they seem to focus very heavily on the process - that process being the swift and steady draining of my wallet.
Harvard, Yale, no problem. (Score:3)
We might imagine "counsel" for MIT comes from one of the less technically adept Universities [harvard.edu]. After a couple of years at MI
Re:Harvard (Score:4, Funny)
umm, excuse me, RIAA? (Score:5, Interesting)
Mike
Re:umm, excuse me, RIAA? (Score:3, Insightful)
RIAA members own the copyrights to the songs. What the bands say doesn't mean shit.
This is why it's effectively OK to share out Metallica tunes; Metallica has not gotten involved in the post-Napster RIAA actions and the RIAA can't sue for material they don't own.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:umm, excuse me, RIAA? (Score:5, Insightful)
My evidence:
1) Article title: "BC, MIT decline to name students in music-use case", as opposed to "music-piracy" or "song-stealing" case. OR
2) "The recording industry's strategy -- pursuing both high-profile users with hundreds of megabytes of music as well as small-time downloaders -- is intended as a wake-up call to Internet music enthusiasts like Alexa Bedell-Healey - as opposed to "illegal file-swappers" or "song-traders"
Any article can be written to have a slightly positive or negative tone while still remaining "truthful" to the facts of the story. The name of the game to write more "positive" sounding articles like this one that portray the RIAA in a slightly negative light.
blue
Re:umm, excuse me, RIAA? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nowhere has it ever been said that owning a CD gives you the right to download the songs on that CD. You do have the right to make a copy of your own, but there is nothing establishing your right to download them.
What's more, based upon the current rulings of the US courts (with the exception of the Kazaa ruling) it seems rather likely that a judge would reject that justification.
Good for them... (Score:5, Funny)
I hope more colleges follow their lead.
Re:Good for them... (Score:5, Funny)
Not very long (Score:5, Informative)
I wish my school was more interested in protecting student rights. The University "Police" gladly assisted in a 'raid' on a couple student's dorm rooms, after checking their class schedule to see when they had class, and thus out of the room (which is a pretty big assumption, given the propensity to skip class around here... but it turned out to be true)
Yeah, they had a warrent (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not very long (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, that was just the first paragraph. We let these kids get into college with spelling and grammar like this but I still can't find a job? *sighs*
Way to go MIT!! (Score:5, Funny)
Just kidding!
(not really)
...am too..really
shhh...not.
MIT eh ? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:MIT eh ? (Score:5, Funny)
Wait until they pressure the donors (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wait until they pressure the donors (Score:3, Interesting)
MIT's-reputation-in-general vs. temporary-RIAA-spasming... for the kind of people that make big donations, that's probably (hopefully?) not too hard of desicion.
For lesser know schools that may have been hit with this, I can, sadly, more easily imagine donation repercussions.
Not entirely true (Score:5, Informative)
So don't get your hopes up just yet. On the plus side, the RIAA said that they don't want to refile. So this may get interesting.
Re:Not entirely true (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not entirely true (Score:5, Insightful)
MIT may be willing to comply with a proper subpoena (and, in fact, pretty much has to agree to comply with a truly proper one), but this could be the beginning of a long process. First, the subpoena has to be filed in a court that has jurisdiction over MIT; then they has to be given sufficient time to obey the law regarding informing the students. But it is also possible that subpoenas filed without a judge's approval (which may be done under the DMCA) may be unconstitutional, which is working its way up the court system.
By the time a subpoena reaches MIT which they can follow without being liable to suit by students' families, these students may well no longer be students, and the IP addresses may no longer be theirs, and the records may have been routinely purged.
For that matter, by now the students (who have seen their pseudonyms in the local paper and on slashdot), may have gotten different KaZaa names and IPs, such that when the RIAA gets the proper paperwork through, the address will be registered to one Jack Florey, resident of fifth east, who was just here but left down the stairwell at the other end of the hall... and, of course, the current records will be long gone, per institute policies, as required by federal law.
Technicality (Score:5, Informative)
Hopefully this will be a rallying cry. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hopefully this will be a rallying cry. (Score:5, Insightful)
And they do have strong ties to Harvard, with access to lots of the Harvard Law folks. An MIT ID card will get you into almost any place at Harvard, and vice versa. This isn't all that special, though; ties to Tufts, BU and BC are nearly as strong.
I can't believe this! (Score:4, Insightful)
I've read the first few replies to this, and aside from the fact that a lot of people seem to have misunderstood the situation (the colleges will comply, they're basically just objecting to incorrectly filed paperwork) everyone thinks this is great.
It is not an abuse of the court system to take legal action against someone who is breaking the law. The fact that these kids may be at college doesn't excuse being criminals.
If, as you say, it is the responsibility of the colleges to manage their own networks, then what do you say about a college that condones breaking the law by taking no action to prevent it?
If colleges don't take reasonable action to prevent the users of their networks breaking the law using those networks, then whose place do you think it is? Clearly central government don't have the resources to combat this problem effectively, which is why they pushed through the DMCA in the first place.
As usual, this comes down to "me, too" bitching about how unfair the RIAA is, and as usual it's aiming at the wrong target. You have a legitimate complaint that the RIAA and those they represent abuse an effective monopoly position to overcharge for the goods they sell. You do not have a legitimate complaint when people who have broken the law get chased down for it.
If the colleges concerned actually were trying to prevent that, they wouldn't be heroes, they'd be accomplices. However, since they're not, they're simply being professional and not giving out private details until a properly filed order requires them to do so.
Get a clue, Quick-Draw (Score:5, Interesting)
Simply put, in this case, the law is wrong and needs to be changed. It is wrong for the RIAA to be able to sue someone $750 all the way to $150,000 for "supposedly" sharing a song. And theres the fact that in most cases they seem to want to go after the maximum amount. All the RIAA is doing is searching Kazaa and other services to see what everyone has available for sharing. They aren't checking to see if a file has been shared, or how many times its been shared. Remember, even when the college kids earlier in the year were sued, the RIAA gave a count of the number of files they were supposedly sharing, they never gave an account as to how many times each song was downloaded, etc. The amounts they are able to sue for are "perceieved amounts" in terms of financial damages, and have no basis in reality.
For example, lets say Billy Jo Bob, a newly signed country singer, makes an album. Billy joe sucks, and very, very few people like him. His album grosses, not nets, but grosses, $50,000. Now, lets say that one of the few people who bought it rips it, shares it, and is then sued by the RIAA. For each TRACK, not entire compilation, they can legally sue for $150,000. Now, lets say the album had 10 tracks on it, and the user puts them all up for grabs. That user can be legally sued for "costing" the record company $1,500,000, even if theres no proof that a single song was downloaded from him. All of an album that grossed barely a percentage of that amount.
To put it in terms that you might be abe to understand, this is the legal equivalent of saying that if you own a gun, and someone on your street is murdered using a gun, you're guilty. The police do not need to gather evidence beyond your owning the gun, for example, ballitics or checking alibis for veracity. Then, the family of the murder victim can sue you for wages lost, and the total they can legally sue you for is the same as if the guy became CEO of a Fortune 500 company and worked til he was 80.
Instead of adopting the holier than thou attitude, consider that this is a democracy. We are, at least in theory, in charge of this country, not the lawmakers. The rights of protest and civil disobedience are etched throughout the history of our legal system. And, from what I understand, the stance that MIT and BC are taking is that they're being polite right now, giving the RIAA a gracious way out, but if the RIAA still pursues the information, they will tell them to shove it.
As for file sharing itself, I'm not saying its right and legal. I do it myself, and I acknowledge I'm breaking the law. And I could care less. I have my reasons, none of which I will speak of here, but I do acknowledge it is not legal by any means. However, it is not the place of the RIAA to be creating so much FUD and irresponsible litigation. I imagine if the laws were changed to something somewhat sane, the universities would have no major issues with giving the RIAA the information. As of now however, I hope that they're seeing an abuse of the system, and an opportunity to protect their students from a ravenous corporate beast, while they deal with the issue themselves.
However, jusding by your apprent support for the DMCA:
Clearly central government don't have the resources to combat this problem effectively, which is why they pushed through the DMCA in the first place.
I expect you might need help in understanding all these big words.
Quick-draw? ROFLMAO. (Score:4, Interesting)
Ah, yes, name-calling, exaggeration and patronising prose: the tools of defensive hypocrites everywhere. Why do you assume that because I disagree with you, I am stupid or ill-informed? I am neither.
On the contrary. If you had bothered to read any of my past posts before making assumptions about me, you'd have found that I wrote on the importance of constantly questioning laws just the other day. I also suggested that the way to see things changed for the better is to fix the broken laws, not to break the current ones.
Oh, please. The hypocrisy around this whole debate is staggering, and your "supposedly" above does nothing to help your case. One minute, going after P2P is an abuse, and they should go after the perps. When they do that, everyone's up in arms about invasions of this or that. Now the perps aren't really perps, they just happened to leave illegal downloadable copies of current tracks lying around their systems? Who are you trying to kid?
And yes, the astronomical amounts they can theoretically sue for are "perceived" amounts disconnected with reality. And how often have the courts awarded them those amounts?
If you insist on using emotional and disconnected analogies, then at least be sensible. It is more akin to saying that if someone points a gun at me and I genuinely believe they're about to shoot me, I can shoot them first and it's reasonable self defence.
I'm adopting a holier than thou attitude? Now that is funny.
And no, you don't live in a democracy such as you describe. Think about it, and if necessary, check what the word "democracy" actually means.
That's an interesting understanding, which appears to differ from the understanding of almost everyone else here. What do you know that we all don't?
Perhaps at some point you should consider that copyright laws used to be sane. Then people like you abused the system on a massive scale, and the system responded. You don't like the response? Maybe you should have thought of that before you were abusive, instead of naively believing that you could get away with it forever.
And no, I don't like the DMCA, nor did I say or even imply that I did. I simply look at it from an impartial outsider's point of view, and recognise why it was proposed and allowed to pass successfully into law.
I've noticed that people from the US usually cry "Unconstitutional!" under two circumstances. One is that a law has been passed that is a genuine violation of their rights or a real threat to their liberty. Another is that a law has been passed that prevents them personally from doing something out of line, a
Re:I can't believe this! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd just like to point out that at this stage of the game, the courts have not been involved.
The DMCA gives the RIAA the right to issue Subpoenas to whoever they want, whenever they want... Without requiring a judge's signiture.
It's a blatant violation of the constitutional right to due process. The more subpoenas they make, the more people will get mad about this fact (hopefully).
more like... (Score:3, Insightful)
More like, "how long will the schools be able to justify spending thousands of dollars to protect the identities of students breaking the law."
Re:more like... (Score:4, Insightful)
The Boston Globe buried the most important issue. (Score:5, Interesting)
Talk about burying the lede. The Boston Globe buried the most important issue in the last paragraph:
It is this issue that might make a difference. If the provision of the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act for issuing subpoenas without judicial action is ruled unconstitutional, and the ruling is upheld, then the efforts of the RIAA will be stopped in their tracks until the law is rewritten.
The rest of the university objections amount to no more than a short-term fight over notice and venue:
Even if MIT is right, these are problems the RIAA can easily remedy. If the RIAA has to file the actions locally, instead of filing them all in Washington, D.C., it will. If the RIAA has to provide more time for notice, it will. Neither of these issues will halt the onslaught for long.
Education, the Universal Cure (Score:4, Interesting)
Can they defend pro-se, loose the case, declare bankruptcy, and leave the RIAA to pay its own lawyers for thousands of suits nationwide?
Curious (Score:3, Interesting)
So lets get this straight - the (alleged) student used the nickname "crazyface" to download "at least" 5 songs? How do they know this unless they were sharing the songs and monitoring who downloaded them in the first place? Does this mean that the RIAA were sharing songs on KaZaa??
If this is the case, are they also not liable under the DMCA?
Re:Curious (Score:5, Interesting)
If this is the case, are they also not liable under the DMCA?
I doubt it, they didn't break any encryption to do this. As for copyright infringement, they didn't do that either as they do have the right to copy those files. The thing I would question is, if they have the right to distribute those files, and were willingly making them available online for free, without any sort of disclaimer, is the person downloading them still in violation of copyright? Cosider for a moment, the person downloading the songs downloaded them from a group who has the right to distribute, and who did not make any attempt to state that downloading those songs, in that fashion, was not allowed. In normal law enforcement, I think this is called entrapment, e.g. the police can't offer to sell you cocaine and then arrest you for trying to buy cocain, unless you initiate the sale. Just something to ponder.
Re:Curious (Score:4, Interesting)
Subpoena Sans Judge? (Score:4, Interesting)
See... if any copyright holder can issue any subpoena for any reason without a judge's support then...
hey... guess what...
Every paper I've ever written is copyrighted by me. I could register one/all of these, and then go off sending these subpoenas out at... everybody on the entire internet, and since no judge has to approve it, and the recipients are legally obligated to respond, I could build lists of persons names, addresses, telephone numbers, ISPs, and IP addresses...
now, dial-up users would change IPs frequently, but not broadband users.
Now, thanks to all the information I'll get from the ISPs I could even see where these users have been going on the internet. (if such logs are available -- and if not, well, then pretend that instead of me doing this its doubleclick, which has ads (and thus tracking) on more webpages than anyone could hope to ever count), and do all sorts of cool things: identity theft (ok, that would be illegal, but easy), very targetted marketing (very valuable -- go from what URLs surfed to stuff in your physical mail box) or just sell these lists to other companies who didn't want to go through the hassle of collecting the info, or any other number of things that would be bad.
So. Verizon, keep on appealling, I think you will win, and in the meanwhile know that we support your efforts!
Oh, and yay to the schools too, please continue to fight!
Re:Subpoena Sans Judge? (Score:3, Informative)
Head of MIT networking (Score:5, Informative)
I used to love listening to him at lunch at conferences talking about the various legal troubles that MIT students would get into including the infamous bonsai kitten website rap. He talked about how a couple of armed Humane Society officers showed up in his office one day to demand he reviel what he knew about the students that put up the website.
His response was, "I can't tell you that, you have passed student privacy laws that prevent me from reveiling the students name". Officers left in a huff, but Jeff was right.
Student Privacy law (Score:5, Interesting)
I should note there are exceptions listed:
* School officials with legitimate educational interest;
* Other schools to which a student is transferring;
* Specified officials for audit or evaluation purposes;
* Appropriate parties in connection with financial aid to a student;
* Organizations conducting certain studies for or on behalf of the school;
* Accrediting organizations;
* To comply with a judicial order or lawfully issued subpoena;
* Appropriate officials in cases of health and safety emergencies; and
* State and local authorities, within a juvenile justice system, pursuant to specific State law.
Interesting they allow "judicial order or lawfully issue subpoena"
Michael Jackson's take, Don't jail downloaders (Score:4, Informative)
Scary DMCA element! (Score:5, Interesting)
Under a provision of the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, passed by Congress to combat music piracy, music companies may issue the subpoenas without a judge's approval.
Private companies can issue subpoenas!!
Doesn't that violate the Constitutionally guaraneed right to Due Process?
Re: Scary DMCA element! (Score:3, Insightful)
> Private companies can issue subpoenas!!
In a nation increasingly ruled by lobbyists, judges are just unnecessary middle-men for this kind of thing, and can be expected to be downsized out of the loop.
Downloading vs. Uploading (Score:3, Informative)
Now, being an MIT student I've heard of people who had been sharing files and were contacted by the IT department and asked to stop doing so (or they'd cut them off). They don't really care about downloading but uploading is bad. Generally they can only detect major bandwidth hoggers (of course easier to notice upstream peaks) so it might be a case of just some isolated kazaa-client used by a summer school student (not regular mit material) who was dum enough to not switch sharing off.
MIT's network btw. is completely open to the internet. Each dorm room computer is hooked directly on net without any firewalls. Students can get their own static ip addresses and dns entries in the form whatever.mit.edu. You can also use dhcp around campus and I'll bet that none of the addresses are logged. Alternatively you could also just pick an address in the right subnetwork and hope that nobody else is using it (not a good idea, unless you know what you're doing - any problems could get your net access revoked).
After some deliberation MIT could also say: sorry, ip address 1.2.3.4 was dynamically allocated and we don't hold records of the dynamic allocations. Better luck next time. Then again, the above is mostly just my impressions and I could be wrong in some of them.
A law unto themselves (Score:3, Interesting)
Far out. Anyone know exactly what the provision entails?
Re: A law unto themselves (Score:5, Interesting)
> > Under a provision of the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, passed by Congress to combat music piracy, music companies may issue the subpoenas without a judge's approval.
> Far out. Anyone know exactly what the provision entails?
Apparently it entails raids on universities and other ISPs to get the names of people involved in file swapping.
Notice that prior copyright law already made things like file swapping illegal, but prosecuting the little guy was not a profitable exercise for big copyright holders... all that bother with obtaining the evidence legally, a trial, and a judgement in proportion to the economic value of the crime, feh!
The DMCA exists so that those companies can practice direct interdiction rather than having the government do things by due process, and also so that those interdictions won't cost more than the companies think they're worth.
In a country where money matters above all else, when due process is deemed too expensive you're bound to see it eroded.
Too bad people can't vote for candidates who promise to preserve our traditional rights and freedoms rather than for those who promise to pump up our bank balances. Corporate greed is just an indirect manifestation of individual greed, and we'll never rein in the lobbyists until we learn to rein in ourselves.
The Revolution has begun... (Score:5, Insightful)
The main issue is now your rights as guaranteed under our constitution. How the hell can the RIAA issue supoenas without judicial oversight? I'm not aware of any govermental department that can issue supoenas on a whim and on an as needed basis at the federal or local level. Our rights in the constitution guarantee us from unlawful prosecution so this RIAA gifted law as madated by paid off politicians is inherently flawed at it's core.
Is it going to take the RIAA busting in your house and holding you at gunpoint treating you as an enemy combatant to realize wtf is going on here? This is bordering on insanity. Prosecuting users at whim with little or no proof and throwing them into financial ruin over an mp3? These aren't the big fish or anywhere near it.
As said previously there is clear and open PIRACY not infringement in many foreign countries and our own where many elements play a part in mass producing cds and dvds to sell on the open market.
P2P is not the black market.
It is the sampling pool for future purchasers of the product the RIAA is demonizing into something that is to be resented and despised. I know there are people out there who just dl and don't buy but my experience is most do buy but as our rights are restricted and our choices limited how long will the buying continue?
I myself no longer buy because I'm not supporting the RIAA period. I have never seen a group of supposedly savvy business people be so ignorant to what is going on in their own market.
Consumers are voting with their wallets so now they want to sue us into submission? How is this progressive thinking?
I will not let the RIAA impose what they think is best for me.
I will not let the RIAA make my decisions on who, what, when, where, and how I listen and buy my music.
I will not give into to this bullying and I will not support them again.
A business entity is buying laws that restrict our freedoms and making downloading entertainment a crime more severe than violent crime with much harsher punishment. I keep asking myself when will people wake up to this and do something or in this case nothing-meaning boycotting cd/music sales?
The ramifications for these laws being passed are far reaching so take a cold hard look at what's going on before it's too late...
RIAA Details (Score:5, Informative)
Jonathan Lamy is another legal lackey.
Amy Weiss is head of the RIAA Dis-Information Ministry.
If you want to contact the RIAA here is their phone number and address:
RECORDING INDUSTRY ASSOC OF AMERICA
1330 CONNECTICUT AVENUE NW SUITE 300
WASHINGTON, DC 20036
US
Phone number is 202-775-0101 (Apparently this number was copywrighted by an individual who now wants to sue the RIAA for using it)
Here is the board of directors for the RIAA (from www.boycott-riaa.com):
I wanted to make sure everyone understands who is behind the decisions the the RIAA makes. If it is going after users, or going after software companies etc. These are the people who make those decisions. Remember when you buy recordings from the RIAA members you are helping to finance their assault on the copyright laws of this country, on the people who love music, and yourself.
Bill Evans
Roger Ames, Warner Music Group
Michele Anthony, Sony Music Entertainment Inc.
Val Azzoli, The Atlantic Group
Jose Behar, Univision Music Group
Bob Cavallo, Buena Vista Music Group
Ronnie Dashev, Maverick Recording Company
Clive Davis, RCA Music Group
Tracey Edmonds, Edmonds Record Group
Dick Griffey, Solar Records/J.Hines Co.
Zach Horowitz, Universal Music Group
Don Ienner, Sony Music U.S.
David Johnson, Warner Music Group
Lawrence Kenswil, Universal Music Group
Mel Lewinter, Universal Music Group
Alain Levy, EMI Recorded Music
Roy Lott, Virgin Records
David Munns, EMI Recorded Music Worldwide
Antonio Reid, Arista Records Inc.
Sylvia Rhone, Elektra Entertainment Group
Rolf Schmidt-Holtz, BMG Entertainment
Tom Silverman, Tommy Boy Music
Andy Slater, Capitol Records
Thomas Stein, BMG Entertainment
Tom Tyrrell, Sony Music Entertainment, Inc.
This list is directly from the RIAA website.
lawmakers who do the RIAA's bidding:
Rep. Robert C. Scott
Rep. Adam B.Schiff
Rep. Bob Goodlatte
Rep. Darrell Issa
Rep. Ed Bryant
Rep. Elton Gallegly
Rep. Henry Hyde
Rep. Howard Coble
Rep. Howard L Berman
Rep. James Sensenbrenner
Rep. John Conyers, Jr
Rep. Lamar Smith
Rep. Lindsey O. Graham
Rep. Melissa Hart
Rep. Ric Keller
Rep. Robert Wexler
Rep. William L. Jenkins
Sen. Dianne Feinstein
Sen. Fritz Hollings
Sen. Gordon Smith
Sen. Joseph Biden
Sen. Rick Santorurn
Sensenbrenner,(head of the copyright committee) took an RIAA funded 18,000 trip in Jan of 2003 to Taiwan and Thailand to warn them about copyright. This is Illegal. Learn more about it and write your represenatives requesting an ethics investigation here(webcasters alliance):
http://216.116.171.66/zzformpage.asp
The RIAA is DIRTY! Use the system to beat them at their own game. We out number them about 1,000,000 to 1. Never forget that, write congress today.
(Sorry for the double post, keep forgetting to change the formating.
Can they prove who had the IP??? (Score:5, Insightful)
There really is no way of tracing someone down unless we find the machine online and go see who is plugged in that port.
All that is assuming that someone did not forge the MAC address to be someone elses.
So, a school could turn over student info, and that student would have to expend tons of $$$ to prove it wasn't them, or just cave and pay off the RIAA extortion. (Sounds like SCO)
What's next, laws requiring a certain amount of logging everywhere? And who is gonna pay for this? Are the gonna outlaw dumb hubs?
FUCKIN' EH!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, the RIAA has driven more people to illegal file sharing than any other force or organisation, and they've done it deliberately just so they can get indignant and prosecute those same people.
Fucking RIAA. At least have the decency to treat the musicians better than dirt.
Very Chilling.. (Score:5, Insightful)
A LIST of files. No actual files, just a list. The actual file called "Metallica - Master of Puppets" could conatin my voice saying "Lars, this was your last album worth buying" repeating over and over again to fill the 5.53 time slot. Everyone knows these are out there and I swear I read in the past about the RIAA doing this themselves to water down the results. How can a list of file names possibly stand up in court? I am not sticking up for copyright violators but the RIAA was no real evidence here.
I'm one of the students... (Score:3, Funny)
*footsteps*
*knock knock*
How do they know? (Score:4, Interesting)
Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Dwnloads (Score:5, Interesting)
Many unsigned musicians provide free downloads of their music on their websites as a way to attract more fans, for example my friends the Divine Maggees [divinemaggees.com]. Many such musicians, while relatively unknown, are as good as any major label band and certainly an improvement over the pablum they serve up on ClearChannel.
You can find many more examples in my new article:
-
Links to Tens of Thousands of Legal Music Downloads [goingware.com]
The article also explores some of the historical and legal issues behind copyright, and suggests steps the file traders can take to make file sharing legal.If you're a musician who offers downloads of your music, I can link to your band's website from the article. Please follow the instructions given here [goingware.com].
Alrighty Kids, Here's What You Do: (Score:3, Funny)
Every.
Single.
Song.
They'll either dismiss the case, or the jury will have comitted suicide by the 8th hour of your "Best of Menudo", "Backstreet Boys Greatest Hits", and "Nsyn Nlimited" collection.
End of case.
Re:Counter Attack (Score:3, Interesting)
Bill Evans
Roger Ames, Warner Music Group
Michele Anthony, Sony Music Entertainment Inc.
Val Azzoli, The Atlantic Group
Jose
Re:Counter Attack (Score:3, Insightful)
"Oh look, CD sales are down another 5% - THOSE EVIL EVIL PIRATES are downloading even more than before! We must get more support from the courts to ruthlessly stamp out these non-consumers!"
Funny how they never seem to cite "Bands release crap that nobody wants to listen to", or "Nobody wants to buy a $18 CD with one good song on it" when it comes to the reasons people
Re:Seriously ... (Score:5, Informative)
The RIAA does not have any special powers here. Anyone can submit such a statement to the US District Court clerk.
The matching of the IP address to the student name is up to the University (acting as the ISP). Before the student can be ordered to pay damages there will have to a trial. The system administrator can be ordered to testify at the trial as to how the match was made. It is up to the jury to decide if the case is proven. As this would be a civil case, the standard is "preponderance of evidence", not "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Re:Seriously ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I can say for a fact that UMass does that; when you connect a NIC with an unrecognized MAC to the network, it assigns you a non-routable IP and all DNS queries from that block are answered with the IP of the server used to register the MAC address. In order to register, you need to know two things: a student ID number (which is no longer their SS#) and the user's password. That process would probably be sufficient to demonstrate identity in court (especially in a civil case, where the standard's not "beyond reasonable doubt" but "preponderance of probabilities").
To be honest, I think universities and similar institutions should keep these records, if only because of the number of times I get portscanned or a flood of Code Red/Nimda scans from University IPs...