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United States Privacy Your Rights Online

EFF's Cindy Cohn Talks About Patriot Act II 223

Posted by michael from the coming-this-summer-to-a-theater-near-you dept.
digidave writes "Techfocus.org has an interview with EFF's Legal Director Cindy Cohn, where she talks about the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II'. She talks about what the act is, how it might infringe on your freedoms, where it does right and how ordinary people can make a difference."
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EFF's Cindy Cohn Talks About Patriot Act II More

EFF's Cindy Cohn Talks About Patriot Act II

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  • article copy (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:26PM (#5812594)
    Techfocus recently conducted an interview with Cindy Cohn, Legal Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, focusing on the impending debate and strong possibility of enactment of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, or 'Patriot Act II.'

    Cindy Cohn has worked intensively on issues relating to online privacy and security, one notable case being her work on the U.S. v. Sklyarov case, which found Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov jailed in the US after speaking on security lapses in Adobe's eBook format. Ultimately cleared of wrongdoing, the programmer and his employer (Elcomsoft) are prime examples of where the EFF and Cohn are making a difference. Other notable work includes Bernstein v. Dept. of Justice, a successful case which tested the legality of encryption exportation - and validated the premise that source code is protected under the First Amendment.

    Note: Based on the nature of the interview, we have provided the a reference list for readers, which translates the acronym to the actual name. You can view the list in a smaller pop-up window by clicking here

    "Under the current draft of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act (DSEA), the Freedom of Information Act is curtailed, allowing the federal government to restrict more documentation of government activities and actions. What are some examples of situations where having the Freedom of Information Act has helped the public?"

    It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing? FOIA creates a default rule of accountability that keeps the otherwise secretive government bureaucracy on its toes. It's impossible to be scientific about it, but I believe the fact that sooner or later a decision made will end up on CBS news, TechFocus or even Slashdot probably prevents more stupid and improper actions than all the regulatory laws and policies put together. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

    For specific examples, recently I've heard excerpts from the tapes of Nixon during the Watergate period, which I believe were released after a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. But the best evidence for folks concerned about online issues is the FOIA gallery. David Sobel and his colleagues have done amazing work over the years using FOIA. Just in the past year they've unearthed information about a Transportation Security Administration model for profiling passengers, mistakes in use of both the Carnivore e-mail surveillance system and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the government's purchase of information about people from Choicepoint (.pdf), the private profiling service. And that's just this year.

    Expanded search warrant powers

    "As currently written, the DSEA would make it possible for investigators to attain a search warrant usable anywhere within the country, if the subject is allegedly involved in computer 'hacking.' Currently this is limited to violent offenses - what computer hacking events have the current restrictions failed to curtail, and what sort of precedent would this set by equating computer hacking with violent crime?"

    View legal reference window

    This provision continues one of the most egregious problems in the original USAPA -- the fact that it ranges far beyond issues related to terrorism and instead appears to be just a law-enforcement wish list. There has been no indication that computer trespass played any role in the 9/11 attacks, or any other act of international terrorism. Yet both USAPA and DSEA (which I call USAPA II) continue the relentless march to increase the scope of the law, to increase the penalties and to reduce the checks and balances against misuse of the law.

    But to answer your question, I'm not aware of any situations in which the requirement that search warrants under the federal computer trespass statute (called the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act or CFAA) be obtained in the same way as all other search warrants has frustrated a law enfo

  • Patriot this, patriot that (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:27PM (#5812602)
    And if you don't comply with the Patriot Act, we'll intercept your communication with a Patriot Missile!

  • hmmmmm? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Oldskooldave ( 532945 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:34PM (#5812648) Journal
    is it gonna be a 3 part trilogy? or are they going to start doing prequals just to make a bit more money?

  • The phone monkies revenge! (Score:5, Funny)

    by EvilStein ( 414640 ) <spamNO@SPAMpbp.net> on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:44PM (#5812710)
    "If I anger a tech support person at my ISP, that employee can maliciously turn over my personal information to the government and I could very well end up being prevented from getting on an airplane or, worse yet, improperly arrested"

    HAH! That will teach people from abusing us poor tech support slaves. Finally. This could put an end to all of the people that call us and scream bloody murder & death threats about us because we explain that printer problems are outside of the ISP's scope of support.

    Be nice to us - we could send Motherfuckin' Guido after you! :P

  • The Most Important part (Score:5, Interesting)

    by core plexus ( 599119 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:45PM (#5812716) Homepage
    Making a difference

    "How can everyday citizens make a difference on this issue? Who can they contact, and what are their best options for protecting their privacy?"

    Of course they can. In fact, they are the only ones who can. It's through pressure from constituents that folks like Sen. Wyden and Sen. Grassley get the message that they need to stand up to the Administration's excessive proposals and that they will have public support if they do. Put the pressure on and keep it on. And while using our activism engine is useful, don't stop there. Go visit your representatives, talk to them about it. And do the same for members of the Administration when you can.

    I posted a few days ago about Getting Involved in the Political Process. This is yet another reason to get involved!

    Man Gets 70mpg in Homemade Car-Made from a Mainframe Computer [xnewswire.com]

  • Singapore (Score:4, Insightful)

    by (X)Paul ( 664560 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:50PM (#5812745) Homepage
    One day we are going to wake up, and wish we were living in Singapore. Slowly we are losing all of the freedoms and rights that make great innovations possible. The Dark Ages are coming ... great thinkers and great innovators cannot function in a society of fear.

    • BINGO (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jabber01 ( 225154 )
      Which is exactly why the Second Amendment is critical. It allows We The People to enforce the First Amendment, and the rest as well.
      • small arms are no longer sufficient to protect a free society from the ravages of a first world government turned on its own citizens, should that ever happen. Hmmmm, I wonder what the founding fathers would have said about this?
      • Ask the palestenians how well those small arms are working to lift the israeli occupation.

        Small arms are no longer effective in preventing opression. Time to open up that chemistry or biology book and hope it's more effective then 45 cal bullets at stopping those tanks from rolling into your town.

        • Small arms are no longer effective in preventing opression. Time to open up that chemistry or biology book and hope it's more effective then 45 cal bullets at stopping those tanks from rolling into your town.

          Is the Anarchist's Cookbook still available? Or has it finally been swept away by the government? If it's still available, I recommend stockpiling it and other books like it. Useful information in there...

          • Easy enough to find on google. I looked at it briefly and I didn't see anything that would stop a tank or an airplane. Unless there are recipes there for mustard gas or sarin or other agents then it probably won't help much.

            It occurs to me now though that the military will probably be able to defend against simple chemical attacks if they know it's coming. Maybe biological agents or those that would poison food and water supplies might be better.

      • So you (a group of, let's say 50 americans) are going to defeat the american army, police force, civil service etc ?

        And somehow you find this reasonable and necessary ?

        Get real

      • Re:BINGO (Score:3, Interesting)

        by dogfart ( 601976 )
        Many dictatorships have fallen in the last 30 years. Chile, Argentina, the whole of Eastern Europe, Russia, Marcos in the Philipines, fascist governments in Spain and Portugal. In NO case where these brought about by "armed citizens". Economic decay, mass popular protests, and the defection of the armed forces were more importnatn factors. Primary though were the organizational skills of democratic forces.

        Gene Sharp [hermanos.org] has written a well researched study of the issue. His conclusions about the effectiv

  • With Bush in power, what do you expect? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 25, 2003 @06:58PM (#5812784)
    Bush, the closest thing to fascist we've ever had.

    Just remember what it was like 3 years ago: Economy was good, we had jobs, the President was brokering peace between Israel and Palestine, and our biggest worry was that the President had consentual sex with his adult intern. Oh my.

    Today: Economy is crashing, > 6% unemployment
    rate is common in urban areas across the country, we're in a questionable and bloody war for oil, the same people [washingtonpost.com] who bolstered Saddam [captionthis.com] into power are in control today, Israel and Palestine aren't even on the map, the Bush administration is silencing political critics, and the government wants to investigate your private life to make sure you are not a terrorist [darpa.mil], headed by Big Brother [nytimes.com] himself.

    So much has been lost in just 3 years.

    • Re:With Bush in power, what do you expect? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by wildchild07770 ( 571383 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @07:50PM (#5813029)
      Sadly as much as a despise our "elected" president the economy isn't truly his fault, it was sliding before he took office and is now simply taking the blame for that.

      HOWEVER, he is to blame for getting us involved in a war for oil (which his family's fortune is based on) to ATTEMPT to help the economy and raise his popularity. I think it's sad that he would do something like this to take the attention off the economy but it's been done throughout the history of our country, and for those who actually think that this war is to "help" the people of Iraq. I'd like to point out a little incident in Cambodia where a little known dictator killed nearly 7 million of his own people and was hardly noticed until it was far too late. Why was there no major intrusion to stop these atrocities? Cambodia isn't bordering any allies of ours who would benefit from kicking him out, and there was no MONEY to be gained. This war is about saving face and making gas cheaper.

      I don't want to sound antipatriotic, I love my country and on occasion I think we even do a few right things in the global society. But it's getting downright scary to think that we can exert this much force anywhere on the globe and have little worry of political retribution from a foreign power, and that this power is threatening our own freedoms. Every year countless laws are added to the books across the country and yet almost none are repealed. We're slowly putting ourselves into a police state. Much of what the government is now trying to regulate and patrol (information/communication) in the interests of "SECURITY" is only going to put the public in a position of fear of even discussing disentous remarks. It scares me that I see these things happening and yet there's little to be done about it because voters are entirely too apathetic to actually look at the issues and get out and fix these problems.

      In short GO AMERICA, get rid of the government

      support the free state project http://freestatproject.org
    • Not to troll or be annoying here... but I think this is a little far fetched:

      " Bush, the closest thing to fascist we've ever had."

      If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed. You still have the right to say that Bush is a fascist or whatever, don't get me wrong. But don't go throwing around terms that don't apply in the situation.

      • If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed.

        To quote Ari Fleischer, "People ought to watch what they say."

      • The quote was 'closest thing to fascist we've ever had.' That's accurate, although I wouldn't say Bush but rather the Bush administration.

        Hell yeah this is the closest thing to fascism I've seen in the states. We've got the bellicose nationalism, we've got the centralization of authority, we've got the propaganda, and you better damn better believe we've got erosion of privacy and individual rights. What else do you need? The crude oppression? Don't worry, white bread americans don't have to see that
      • Here is a quote from Benito Mussolini


        Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have c

      • If Bush was a "fascist," then you wouldn't have just posted that comment and would be jailed or killed. You still have the right to say that Bush is a fascist or whatever, don't get me wrong. But don't go throwing around terms that don't apply in the situation.

        Um, how long does it take a man in a democratic republic to establish himself as a fascist dictator? I'd have to say that Bush is doing an excellent job railroading this one in. It's only been 3 years and he's already setup most of the infrastruct

  • questions (Score:2, Insightful)

    by VanillaCoke420 ( 662576 )
    Who will monitor the monitors?
    Who will liberate the liberators?

  • We're Americans: Let's Stand up for our Freedoms (Score:4, Insightful)

    by reporter ( 666905 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @07:31PM (#5812937) Homepage
    The Patriot Act is one of those pieces of legislation which tests the mettle of being an American or, in general, a Westerner. What makes us different from non-Westerners like the Chinese is that when our basic freedoms are violated, we protest. We support the ACLU. We support Amnesty International. In short, we support basic human rights and civil liberties.

    What will become of the USA if we allow the Patriot Act to continue suppressing our freedoms? Think "China" or "Chinese society". The Chinese in Singapore regularly ban "The Economist [economist.com]", a reputable journal. The Chinese will throw you into prison for holding a peaceful demonstration against the government.

    Note that the Patriot Act curtails the Freedom of Information Act. What happens when government prevents its own citizens from knowing the activities of the government? Think "Chinese government". The Chinese in Beijing covered up the lethal illness called "Sudden Accute Respiratory Syndrome", and this coverup engendered the proliferation of the SARS epidemic to all corners of the globe. Read "China and SARS [economist.com]". Indeed, the majority of Chinese believe that "maintaining social order [is] more important than democracy". This "maintaining social order" means "restricting freedom of speech, press, and assembly". Read "Poll: Hong Kong residents optimistic [cnn.com]".

    Both Singapore and the USA are modern societies in terms of technology. Yet, most people prefer to live in the USA, not Singapore, because of the openness and freedom in American society. What distinguishes us Americans from the Chinese is our willingness to support freedom of thought and speech and to support openness in our own government. Otherwise, the USA will degenerate into a nation like Singapore or, worse, China.

  • Freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dot.Com.CEO ( 624226 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @07:36PM (#5812961)
    Do you know what fascism is?

    ...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

    Read more here [fordham.edu].

    If you live in the US, please think about how your government tramples on every idea of freedom, peace and democracy and then adds insult to injury by trying to convince you that, indeed you enjoy the freedom to say and do whatever you want.

    A democratic regime would never have its president utter the words "with us or against us".

  • The US has lost sight of its ideals... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Samir Gupta ( 623651 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @07:49PM (#5813024) Homepage
    As someone born in India, educated in the US, and now working in Japan, I have extremely mixed views of the US. As someone who spent years in America as a student and a researcher, I am truly thankful for the opportunity that I had to be a part of the world's leader in science and technology, an environment that welcomes the world's best and contribute what I could to its intellectual and economic prowess.

    Now, 20 years later, I probably would not have done the same were I in those shoes again. Such acts like the Patriot Act, detainings of people -- many times US Citizens themselves -- on the basis of race, under no basis for charge, new onerous immigration restrictions that make even getting a tourist visa about as easy as winning the lottery if one is unlucky enough to be from a country that's not western European, and other such hypocritical erosions of the consitution have turned me off.

    Japan is not perfect, mind you. Its people still have a air of racial superiority about them left from their imperialist warmongering days, and discrimination in employment and all aspects of society is too often blatant for me and other people with too dark of a skin color. But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing. And I feel free to go about my work without fear that the police may be scrutinizing my every move, trying to "prove" my association with terrorist groups.

    In short, I fear that Bush and Rumsfeld have done irreparable damage to the United States' image as a bastion of democracy and freedom in the world. Prior to the crackdowns on people in the US under the veil of 9/11, the erosion of the Consitution, and the invasion of Iraq, the United States held both the military power and the moral authority to enforce its opinions, a right it earned through decades of generally magnanimous acts in support of these causes around the world. Today, all this work has been laid to waste because of the shortsighted policies of George Bush and his advisors. The world views the United States, rightly so in my opinion, as hypocrites. It will take a long time (and most likely a new administration) to change that view for the better.

    • Be careful what you post. The last thing we need is Nintendo classified as a terrorsit organization. I agree. The US has lost it's shine, so to speak. The current regime here is responsible for the tranish. It'll take a lot of elbow grease to make the US bright again.

    • Re:The US has lost sight of its ideals... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by praksys ( 246544 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @10:17PM (#5813488)
      But even they don't think of us as criminals without a cause, which is what the US is doing.

      Do you think this would still be true if the 9/11 attacks had happened in Tokyo instead of New York and Washington? The US was never as perfect as you remember, nor as admired or respected, and now it is not as bad as you suppose.

      People forget that the rest of the world said exactly the same sort of thing about Reagan (and worse) that people are now saying about Bush. They said he was an idiot, and a warmonger, and plenty of other things besides - until after communism was defeated.

      People forget that although the constitution is now more than two hundred years old, most of the constitional rights that are now under threat are no more than a few decades old (being the results of relatively recent Supreme Court rulings).

      People also forget that the US is in fact facing a deadly threat, and that there is no garantee that it will survive this war against terrorism.

      I think that is probably one of the most serious problems with this war. With terrorism there are no massing armies on the border, and no enemies that bang their shoes on podiums in the UN and promise to burry us. It is all too easy to forget that the threat is there. But we have three thousand dead American civillians to remind us - more than in any war since the Civil War - and if terrorism becomes nuclear then those thousands will become millions. The US government has realised that there is no way to defend against nuclear terrorism, except to stamp out terrorism before it gets that far. If they fail in this task then the US will cease to exist along with most of what we now call civilisation.

      In the face of such a threat desperate measures are required, and the tuth is that even if Ashcroft got every power he is asking for, US civil rights would still be in better shape than they were in the 1960's or even in the 1970's.

      How this administration is judged in the long term will depend entirely on the results they achieve. If they democratize the middle east, as they claim they intend to, then the reputation of the US will not suffer any harm. In the meantime the US should expect no more respect or admiration from the rest of the world than it got during the cold war - i.e. none at all.

      • People also forget that the US is in fact facing a deadly threat, and that there is no garantee that it will survive this war against terrorism.

        They don't forget, they just don't believe it. However, I think you may be correct. The current administration represents the greatest genuine threat America has ever had to face.
        • They don't forget, they just don't believe it.

          I think that is right. For years - a decade or more - there were a bunch of anti-terrorism types (like these ones [hvk.org]) warning about the possibility of terrorist attacks on a huge scale. No one really took the threat seriously - and that was understandable - because such attacks had never actually happened. Now they have happened.

          For years the same guys have been warning about the possbility of nuclear terrorism. We know for a fact that Pakistan has nuclear weapo
      • People forget that although the constitution is now more than two hundred years old, most of the constitional rights that are now under threat are no more than a few decades old (being the results of relatively recent Supreme Court rulings).

        Excuse me. What planet have you been sleeping on? Since 1995 and especially since 9/11, more the half of the Bill of Rights has been eroded. The first ammedment has been under constant attack - DMCA, right of association = suspicion. Third Ammendment and the over
    • Dear Mr Gupta,

      I thought you worked at Sega [google.com]?

      How's your Smell-o-vision [google.com] (also here [slashdot.org]) project going?

      Your educational background [google.com] is pretty impressive too.

      What about Super Marx Brothers [slashdot.org]?

      Finally, how's the Gameboy Advance Porn Industry [slashdot.org] going?

      Anyway, good luck at your job [google.com].

      (Thanks to Klaruz [slashdot.org] and cascino [slashdot.org])
      this)

      Your comment has too few characters per line (currently xx.xx) Your comment has too few characters per lien (currently xx.xx) Your comment has too few characters per lnie (currently xx.xx)

  • Taking a stand (Score:5, Interesting)

    by g00z ( 81380 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @08:12PM (#5813113) Homepage
    *RANT*

    It's pretty simple, actually. All this talk of writting your congressmen, protests -- it's all worthless folks.

    What WILL make a diffrence is this:

    1) Next chance you get, vote all of these clowns out of office. And for those you can't vote out of office since they are appointed (Ashcroft), vote against those that appointed them.

    2) Stop spending money! Since politicions that make and pass laws like these are bought and paid for by corporations for the corporations interests, the best way to nip it in the bud is to stop feeding the machine. Since this war has started, I haven't driven my car. Why? Because I haven't bought any GODAMN GAS.

    Flame on.
    • I'm not flaming you, but I do have a suggestion or two.

      First, voting is the *last* thing (literally) you should do to make changes in your political leadership. Voting is the final judgement, but getting involved in the political process is the first thing we should be doing.

      I'm not talking about protests or sit-ins or organized campaigns. I'm talking about getting personally involved the EASY way. Call your state, Congressional and Senate reps and make an appointment to talk about 1 issue (this isn't an
    • 1) Bush is toast!

      2) I understand the sentiment, but my 100 mile commute to/from work would be much more... interesting... on a bicycle. :-)

      Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to get off reliance on oil is to take cars straight to electric/solar. Car/Oil companies just won't allow alcohol or some other fuel. That's why they want to fein support for fuel cells, which are several years off.

      Looking at the electric cars that were made is quite a clear indication. First, the fact that they pulled t

    • 1) Next chance you get, vote all of these clowns out of office. And for those you can't vote out of office since they are appointed (Ashcroft), vote against those that appointed them.

      The problem here is that, with our current political system, we can never vote the clowns out of office, unless we choose to vote nobody in, and that can't happen. Sure, maybe Gore would've been a better president than Bush. In some ways. But in other ways, he would've been worse. The point is, unless we get a candidate who
  • I donated another $20 today. There was a great victory in the RIAA vs. Streamcast and Grokster. Legal fights like this cost money. Please donate whatever you can to the EFF! They are the only thing standing between us and ultra-greedy mega-corps!
    • I'm a member of the EFF, $100+ level if it means anything (love that hat!).

      Still, the EFF can't do it alone. I'm glad you donated, but have you moved towards making a political difference in your area by calling your reps or making appointments with them on a consistent basis? It's easier than writing or e-mail, it makes a bigger impression, and (from my experience) there's something about it that encourages follow-up on your part since you invested the energy in the first place.

      It's also much easier than

  • Sums it up like only the EFF can (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Syncdata ( 596941 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @09:04PM (#5813282) Journal
    It's hard to know where to begin with this one. I think about it in reverse -- what would happen if we didn't have access to what the government is doing?
    Right on sir. All too often we look at government in the wrong direction. The constitution does not "grant us" anything, it is used to restrict the governments domain. Similarly, the FOIA does grant the citizen anything, rather, it stifles the governments ability to engage in clandestine affairs.
    This is what makes the patriot act V1.0 so insidious, is that it allows the government to move in a clandestine fashion, and in fact violates the Fourth ammendment [cornell.edu]. The FOIA is beautiful in it's keeping with the ideals of the founding fathers. It limits the governments ability to act without pretense, clandestinely.
    It would only make sense that Patriot Act V2.0 would get rid of such a hindrance to the government.

  • Book Recommendation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Pettifogger ( 651170 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @09:41PM (#5813376)
    If you're as outraged by "Patriot II" as most people here seem to be, go get a copy of "It Can't Happen Here," by Sinclair Lewis. Though written in 1935, it draws some spooky parallels to what's going on right now.

    If there's no regime change in November 2004, I'm going to put my plans in action for leaving the country. There are better places to live, and if you're young enough and skilled/educated, you can jump through their immigration hoops and get a passport. You know, like what a whole lot of Germans did in the 30s.

    • Could you please post list of "better places to live" than U.S.A.? Some of us are genuinely curious, and may need it for future reference!
      • Canada, new zealand, spain, finland, sweden, belize well just about anyplace really.

        Think about it what do you do every day? You work, you come home, you watch tv, you mow the lawn. Once in a while you go to a movie or a bar. Guess what you can do that in most places in the world. Is there something special you do on a regular basis that you can't do someplace else? If so what?
        • Interesting list of countries, most I might find ok at least...but I wouldn't say "just about anyplace really". Most of the rest of the world is under governments and/or religions that make the place in question bad. Lack of freedom and wrong fundemental beliefs about man makes most of africa, asia, south america and the middle east a crap hole.
          • "Lack of freedom and wrong fundemental beliefs about man makes most of africa, asia, south america and the middle east a crap hole."

            It depends really. Take any large country on one of the places you list. For example Brazil. If you were a middle class person living in brazil you'd pretty do the same thing that you do here. You'd have a job, you'd have a house or an apt, you'd spend most of your waking hours at work, you'd come home and watch TV. The same is true no matter where you go in the world. Thailan
            • Brazil? Had a military regime from 1964 to 1985, and the current civilian goverment has interesting violent clashes with peasants. They've outlawed use of torture by police, though in practice still a problem. I especially like freedomhouse.org's description of the police as "among the worlds most violent and corrupt". And the organized crime there is a law unto itself.

              Just wanted to point out that places that might look good on a travel brochure, or in a TV show set in the well-to-do section of town
              • RE:Brazil.

                I urge you to go there experience it for yourself. You seem to have warped view of ordinary life there. Trust me the vast mjority of the people who live in brazil live simple ordinary lives just like you do.

                Have you ever been to thailand? Again go there and see for yourself. Americans really need to get out and see how the rest of the world lives.

                "s I do with my freedom is collect guns and handload ammo shooting in competition."

                Guns are very common in the world. Most countries make you registe
                • Have been to Thailand, and even to Cambodia during last part of its civil war and was married there. Fascinating and interesting places (Thailand being far safer), but my warnings and observations still stand.

                  Have not been to Brazil, though had 2 roomates in college from there (about 20 years ago). Hope things are getting better there

                  Yes, many countries that would be ok to live in allow guns, but some that are otherwise ok do not. I do wish to have law & order where I live, and for gun owners to
                  • "but my warnings and observations still stand."

                    Not really. THings have changed a lot recently. Surely Both Brazil and Thailand are not the same country they were twenty years ago just like the US.

                    As for law and order, I would not think that would be such a huge problem if you were armed to the teeth. Lots of countries have both though. For example in greece gun ownership is very popular, especially in the islands where it's an anamoly not to have guns. If you lived on a greece island not only could you ha
        • OMFG!

          I just love your sig!!! ;)
    • The problem is finding a place that is willing to let americans immigrate. All the english speaking countries have very strict immigration laws and most americans can't speak another language.

    • If there's no regime change in November 2004, I'm going to put my plans in action for leaving the country.

      Not me, I love my country, and I'm gonna stay here and take it back. You can run away if you want, but I'm gonna stay here and fight.

    • Just the other day I went looking through the national archives and ran across some declassified documents from the Pentagon. Inside these documents our own government drew up plans and recommended that we attack our own citizens, such as destroy a national monument, etc. Just to get us to bomb Cuba in 1962. Luckily our president at the time was Kennedy who turned down the plan. But if Bush was the president at that time do you think he would have made the same decision?

      I don't think so considerring he

  • So let me get this straight... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rinks ( 641298 ) on Friday April 25, 2003 @09:53PM (#5813405)
    ...the government needs to know what I buy, what medicine I'm on, who I talk to, who I'm fucking... but not whether or not I own weapons in my home? How does that work, exactly?

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday April 26, 2003 @03:24AM (#5813988)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Patriot II: Reloaded
  • ...who was on "Facts of Life?"

    Natalie Green, I think.

    No, wait, that was Mindy Cohn [imdb.com]

    Forget I said anything.

  • Why does the flag story icon only have 12 stripes? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Jered ( 32096 ) on Saturday April 26, 2003 @01:04PM (#5815430) Homepage
    The American flag has 13 stripes, one for each of the original colonies. What conspiracy has led Slashdot to have a 12-striped flag as a story icon?
  • Now I have it on my hard drive along with my other 62,000 pictures of babes...

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