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Comdex Your Rights Online

CTO is Too Young for Comdex 294

Posted by jamie from the talk(1)in'-bout-my-generation dept.
Doug Muth shares an "article in Wired News about the CTO of a company, Matrixcubed, who is being denied admission to Comdex - because he is 17 and you must be 18 to attend. This is really sad that Comdex is ignoring the realities of the IT industry like this." The profitable company was founded, by the now-17-year-old CTO, three years ago.

Update: 10/22 14:00 by michael : eswierk writes "After reading the Wired article about Mike Lavers being too young for Comdex, I immediately dashed off a email to Comdex imploring them to stop being a Big Dumb Corporation and admit the kid. Who knew I'd get a reply from the VP. I don't normally distribute personal email, but this seems like one worth repeating to those foaming at the mouth.

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:56:40 -0400
From: Bill Sell
Subject: Re: Mike Lavers too young for Comdex

Ed, as far as I can tell, Mike never asked anyone in management about attending. This is a case of the Internet gone amok again with a fable and fiction, not fact. Too bad.

Bill Sell
Vice President & General Manager, COMDEX"

I'm not sure I see the foaming, however. According to the original Wired article, COMDEX was contacted and refused to make an exception for their policy, then refused to comment to Wired News. And of course, Sell still hasn't offered to actually let Lavers or any other under-agers attend. Where's the fiction, where's the fable? More than likely, COMDEX's insurance coverage is based upon only adults being present, and would be difficult to change at this late date, which is why they don't want to change their policy now; but that's no excuse for not having anticipated younger attendees in the first place, or for trying to spin it after the fact as an internet fable. COMDEX might do better to solve the problem instead of spinning it.
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CTO is Too Young for Comdex

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  • well.. (Score:2)

    by Suydam ( 881 )
    While I agree that this sucks, I don't think you can blame Comdex for this. 18 is a magical age in the USA (where COmdex is held I think) and there are quite simply things you cannot do until you turn 18.

    Don't flame. I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to go. I"m just saying that some lawyer somewhere probably told the COmdex organizers "You're going to get sued if people under the age of 18 attend your show." And in all honesty, the lawyer might be right....ultra-conservative parents can be a nightmare.

    So my question is, how do you bend the rules to allow a CTO of a company to attend who isn't 18? I submit that it's probably harder than just saying "Come on in!".

  • Once upon a time (Score:3)

    by aheitner ( 3273 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:18PM (#1595653)
    when several members of our company were underage, we had problems getting in to E3.

    We contacted the show management and they got us special badges. It was a little bit of trouble, not much.

    I'm surprised Comdex wouldn't do the same.
  • What could there be at a tech show that's innappropriate for a 17 year old? Are they going to be showing pornography or selling tobacco products to everyone who walks in? Even though it's true in the US 18 is that magical age, there are just some things that don't make sense. I went to trade shows at 16 and 17, and there's nothing there that could be wrong for a youngster to see. What are they afraid of?
  • What could possibly go on at Comdex that would require an age of 18 to attend? I'm 23 so I'm not some teenie bitchin cause I'm not old enough. Do they all gather 'round and smoke big stogies or something? Can someone explain this to me? G

  • Secret Comdex regulations. (Score:5)

    by Matt2000 ( 29624 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:22PM (#1595658) Homepage
    The real problem that causes the age minimum is this year's featured "Novell Fly Girls" dance troupe, which will be performing their controversial routine entitled "10 Base T&A". Check for them in the program under keynote speeches, wednesday morning.

    Other highlights should include Steve Ballmer performing an interpretive dance to a collection of his favorite "slow jams." Look for that in the alley near the west entrance.


    Hotnutz.com [hotnutz.com]

  • Woo. (Score:3)

    by pb ( 1020 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:23PM (#1595659)
    Protecting minors from Comdex? Come on.

    He's 17, that's old enough to see R-rated movies. He can go see Eyes Wide Shut and he can't get into a computer show? Yeah, right. I agree, they need to get with reality here.

    Remember, in 1993 we had high-school kids writing the most beautiful graphics demos in assembler ever. And throughout our history, it's been high school kids and college drop-outs driving the industry. Microsoft, Apple, you name it. Computer nerds with free time always make a difference, and if you don't support those, you are not supporting innovation.
    ---
    pb Reply rather than vaguely moderate me.
  • This is ridiculous. I have been going to comdex since i was 15 years old. You just lie about your age on the registration form and nobody says anything about it. They dont even check the forms.

    It is just plain stupid to set a age like 18 when there are some 16 or 17 year olds who belong there more then some of the 40 year olds.
  • I'll be cynical and say that if he was the head of a larger firm, say $10Million+ per year, he could get in with just a wink. Money does talk.

    I'm just wondering how he makes legally binding deals? If I recall Business Law right, he couldn't have incorporated without being legally declaried an adult. If he's 17, and the company takes a nose dive or something, it's Dad who gets to fed off ravenous lawsuits and creditors despite being incorporated while junior can just wait until 18, and try again scot free. Also techincally, he can't make a business deal. I could make a big deal with him, get all the goods/services and then not fulfill my half of the contract. Courts might decide since he can't make the call, the deal never happened.

    I think he should, or can be allowed on the floor, but any deal making would have to be with Dad.


  • No flames here.
    While I agree that the law is the law and those under 18 shouldn't be admitted, I would like to know what exactly the 18 year limit fixes. I mean, it's not like there's strippers and pornos at Comdex, right? (Might be a good gimmick though ;) Where's the harm in letting a 17 year old (and for that matter a 15 year old) into a computer convention? 'Come on Comdex, think a little.

  • Once again, general rules put in place for some reason are enforced beyond all reason by people unable to reason.
  • Why was there a problem? WHy don't they want under 18 year olds in at their conference or trade show?
  • I wish I had problems like this when I was 17.

    Being serious, what does suck is that Comdex isn't going to pay any sort of price for this. Do you think the press and Mega-Corp CTOs (the people who actually ligitimize and make shows Comdex profitable) are going to care? Do you think they are going to stop going?

    Probably not. Thats what really sucks here.
  • If he can not got in, they should do there best get to get free publicy as result of this with some from os stunt. consider wiring someone over 18 up with a video camera and two way mike do live feeds out while Mike acts as remote controller.


    Banfield

    Pavlov's Dog vs. Schrodinger's Cat
  • At the Comdex's held in Canada, it seems the rules change every year. The age restriction seems to fluctuate from anywhere between 16 and 21.
    But volunteers who are under the age required are allowed. Thus, I would assume exceptions could be made for exhibitors.
    Maybe it's different in the States, but here, although they have stupid rules, they at least have smart people, running Comdex.
    ---

  • Easy to solve (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Comdex just needs to make exceptions for Corporate officers.
  • Sounds like this "kid" has it together. Do people
    go to Comdex to work or play?

    I doubt this "kid" would be interested in playing anyway. Sounds like a worker to me.

    And, he should be an example to lazy butts like me!
  • Actually, it's not the amount of revenue his company makes -- but I bet you if he blew Comdex for 10k or so he'd get in. These trade shows are licensed extortion. You can "buy" your company's logo on a piece of paper they wrap around the programs for usually $25,000 to $50,000 -- the assumption being that the attendees have to see it/rip it to read the program. Want a large banner hanging over your booth? That's another $25k. These prices are real examples, from Internet world, 3 years ago.

    On another note, has anyone else noticed a real similarity between matrixcubed.net and dreamhost.com? I mean, even the plans and the automated administration are very similar. Or is this more common than I thought?
  • Just like him, I am of a similiar age, and have had my company for the last 6 years. Ever since I was little I have sat at a desk with a phone and played a business man. Thats just what I wanted to do. I attend alot of the local conferences, and although they say you must be 18, they always allow me in. Comdex's response suprises me. The reason the have this age limit is so they dont get parents bringing there kids and letting them run around. These conferences must remain at a certain level or professionalism. But exceptions should certainly be made for young entrepenuers that have a legitamate reason for being there.
    I will be attending Supercomputing 99 in portland and ITEC. Any other slashdotters going to be at either one of those?

  • Second Class Citizens... or not citizens at all? (Score:5)

    by sinnergy ( 4787 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:34PM (#1595674) Homepage
    For all the advocacy these days for the rights of children and the push towards getting kids interested in math, science and engineering, I see this move by the folks managing Comdex as a serious travesty. For years and years now college students and many bright young high school kids have been often times at the very fore-front of the technological envelope. What I fail to see, though, is why a person's age has any affect on what that person's abilities are when it comes to participating in a convention. The only reason I could agree to something like this is if law prevented the individual from going.

    Whom does it serve to prevent the very best and brightest entrepreneurs from attending? Why must kids who are constantly being told that they need to become "more involved" and need to "make something of themselves" are constantly being held back with excuses like, "you're not old enough" and "you don't have that right". On one hand, the government is telling many kids that they have the right to divorce their parents, for example. Other examples include allowing a child to have the right to sue their school over something as trivial as being prevented from participating in cheerleading because of bad marks (as a case in Ohio proved). On the other hand, we're telling people under 18 that they're not smart enough to vote, not smart enough to drink (at least in the U.S.), not old enough to determine whether they need to attend school or not and not old enough to sign legal documents. At this rate, who is to say that legislation shouldn't be enacted from people under 18 from holding jobs or from starting companies or from learning how the world they are about to enter into and shape works?

    This just sickens me.

    Now, Comdex can come back saying something like, "Our main goal is to prevent families with kids from coming in and treating the convention like a circus." This point has some merit. I know that I would not appreciate having to navigate through strollers and pouty children while trying to learn more about cutting edge products. I have enough problem with screaming kids in church (but that's a different thread altogether).

    What I think would benefit everyone in this case would be a levelheaded case-by-case look at individuals whom have a real vested interested in attending. Discrimination of this type (mind you, I use this word very carefully) really has no place in this literal "world of tomorrow."

    For all of our sake, I hope Mike Lavers continues to press on and make a case of this. I think he has a very valid point and has every right to attend Comdex. It's bad business to prevent him from going. As an aside to his father, I hope he continues to encourage his son and I hope they are able to build a strong business and interest other young people into participating and building in the high tech culture that is all of our future.

  • Forgive my ignorance, I'm not a lawyer, but if he got an adult to incorporate his company, and than declared him an officer of that company, than wouldn't any deals he makes technically be between the corporation and the other person, not between him (The 17 year old) and another individual, and thus be legally binding? As I understand it, once a company has incorporated, it is treated as an adult person in most respects. Oh well, just a thought...

    Sheesh, talk about a grey area... =)

  • You are confused. There is no law stating that you have to be 18 to attend a computer conference , or any conference for that matter. That is something that is controlled by the conference organizers. They came up with the rule that you had to be 18, it is NO LAW. It is as simple as saying 'Come On In..'
  • Let's see private company decides to set some criteria for selling a pass to their event. Kid doesn't qualify. What's the issue? Did I miss something about life, liberty, and right to attend trade shows or something?
  • I know RealNetworks had a similar policy for their conference, but when I emailed them about it, they were really nice about writing back and said they would be glad to make exceptions. They just didn't want people bringing kids and stuff.

    That said, Comdex sticking to that policy is fairly dumb. I know I'd be pissed about it, if it wasn't Comdex. I mean, who wants to go to Comdex anyway?

    e;

  • Standard bullshit, but expected (Score:4)

    by Raxxon ( 6291 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:39PM (#1595681)
    Networld 1995 I was thrown out by the management. I was only 14 at the time, was just starting my studies for Novell's CNE certification and was tossed out because I was under-aged and did not belong there. My father's company had paid for my pass and had asked me to attend as a representative of them. I was dressed in slacks, combatboots that had a semi-decent shine to them, a polo-type shirt and a blue windbreaker (it was a bit chilly that day). The security goons took me upstairs after I came back from lunch (after I had been given the morning to ROAM the whole expo) and I was informed that if I came back they'd press legal charges.

    Networld 1996. I had my revenge. I went the entire expo in shorts and T-Shirts. I had certified at the end of 1995/beginning 1996 (final test passed on 12/31, cert dated 1/4). They never touched me from then on. The reason? If they threatened me with legal action to have me removed I could threaten them with legal action for impeeding my work as a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL.... They tend not to jack with you unless you really do something wrong... the expo got renamed the following year and at that time I was working with the local Professional Association setting up booths and other crap for Novell and was running demos of things.... granted I still prefered the demo I ran in 1996.. ;) Doom deathmatch competition in which I whooped all commers...


    Hack me, Crack me, Make me bleed
    a faster box would be all I need
  • Having owned a company when I was underage.., you are correct. My father is a lawyer and held onto the shares which I could not legally own, but appointed me as an officer.

    That way, any deals were between the company and the client, not myself. As for this Comdex thing, why to they have an age limit? That's very bizarre...
  • Yes he can.

    The company could have been incorporated by an adult and then have the company hire the kid as CTO. Dad dosn't have to fend off lawsuits - the company does. And the kid most certainly can make deals as an agent of the company.

    -Nick

  • The Real Reason (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:41PM (#1595684)
    If Comdex is like alot of other shows that i've been on, they are REALLY big on collecting marketting data.

    And for some reason, it is illegal to collect marketting data from minors without parental consent.

    While the low-level gate entry guards probably wouldn't care if you were 17yrs old - you can bet the Comdex/exhibitor law-talkin-guys would be. So making a blanket rule is a simple way to avoid legal problems.

    Really, sounds to me that this guy is raising a fuss just to get attention for his company.

    Tom
  • some of the industry's brightest minds (myself *not* included) are under 18. Going to events like comdex would really help us in our careers. We could see and try new tech., talk to others like us...
    My worthless opinion...
    David

  • Age in America (Score:4)

    by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:43PM (#1595686) Homepage Journal
    Ever notice how fucked up our American laws and attitudes are about age? Both the young and old are shunned despite what they contribute. Ageism runs rampant. There should be a single set age to watch R/Adult movies, drive, vote, smoke, drink, get laid, get married, run for office, get a real job, etc. I personally would vote to extend such rights as low as 15yo's even though I'm now 21 myself. Even now I often get snuffed by a lot of jobs and such because of my age. It's really amazing given I work in the tech industry and have been coding and hacking hardware for over ten years. I know many 15yo's that are more intelligant and mature than many 30yo's I know and know many people 50+ that are still as bleeding edge as ever. This is just more government supported discrimination.

    Anyone else find it funny that you could get married before you could buy porn? I suppose you're expected to wait for the honeymoon until your 18 (or 21 depending on your area) or maybe just where blindfolds. :P

  • Lie. (Score:1)

    by Lx ( 12170 )
    I've been going to comdex since I was 16 or so, and it's real simple - don't tell them how old you are. No one really cares, they just don't want a bunch of kids running around.

    -lx
  • I'm not joking, with parental supervision he should be able to get in..

    (But I would hate to think how embarassing it would be to get on stage and give a speech with your mom there, correcting grammatical mistakes.. gohd)

    Comdex not only has to worry about liability, but (Supposedly, I've never been) half the show is porn.

  • The great COMDEX sex-fest (Score:3)

    by Mr_Plow ( 30965 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:48PM (#1595693)
    This article here [lvrj.com] paints a picture of COMDEX to be some kind of bachanalian orgy of geeks and strippers and prostitutes. And naturally the MAN wants to keep the kid down. Don't worry, kid, you'll be old enough for prostitutes next year.


    ------------------------------------------------ ----------
  • This is just one of those things that bugs me about big bureaucracies, like large companies, universities, the government... When things don't follow the rules, often someone has to change the rules. Sometimes, nobody wants to take the initiative and there is often no one who will tell them to. This is a big reason why bureaucracies are so annoying, you go to one window and they tell you to go to another, etc. Sometimes defending the status quo is easier than changing the rules. I bet that is what is happening here.

    -- Moondog
  • Umm, you're confused. And it's very negligible, as I seriously doubt there would be an exposed electrical cord that ONLY he would trip over.

    Geez. I'm 17. I wish I were able to consider going to Comdex :|
  • Clearly, since it has become a story item on /. [slashdot.org], that the kid has whined to enough people about the situation. A measure of a man is how he gets things done, not how he whines about it.

    I too had similar problems when I was a kid, I learned way around the system. I lied about my age, whatever it took to get where I needed to be.

    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
    And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!
    "If" - Rudyard Kipling [geocities.com]

    Andrew
  • Boo.

    Why make it *that* kind of issue? Comdex is just being a little stupid here--I don't see anybody (reputable) saying that a civil liberty has been violated or anything.

    Lighten up, and when you've regained your composure look at the real problem (that the scene is changing, and arbitrary age limits for things like this are just bad business) instead of some made-up issue.
  • They should set an IQ limit for attendance - say around 120 minimum. Oh, but then the Comdex organizers couldn't get in ,,,

  • Kid owns corporation. Kid wants to make deals and generally impress the hell out of everyone. Kid can't go because PHBs think ALL people under 18 are immature, and therefore inadmissable, REGARDLESS of the fact that he's running an internet business bringing in a profit. That's just stupid.
  • No one said he has a right to go. The argument is just that Comdex is being ignorant in their refusal to let him in. 16 year old geeks have no implicit right to go to any convention, Gen Con, whatever. Organizers see the value in letting children attend in some cases. In this case, this child owns a profitable computer company. Why shouldn't he be allowed to represent his company? Yes, I understand that Comdex has a rule, but is this what the rule was set up for? To protect Comdex from 17 yr olds and their companies? Probably not.
  • Going to wired and slashdot to generate negative publicity regarding comdex is a very reasonable strategy to get them to change an inane policy.

  • Re:I wonder how it became an issue (Score:3)

    by wesmills ( 18791 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @12:59PM (#1595708) Homepage
    who would have noticed?

    Probably a lot of people, considering you need to have a pass and a badge to get in and wander around.

    would you lie about your age to the COMDEX organizers? I would.

    Then I can honestly say I won't be doing business with you. Sure, it seems "petty," but your willingness to disregard ethics on small things only shows me that you're more likely to disregard them on larger and larger matters. If the organizers of the show say no, then, I'm sorry, but its their show and they can set the rules. That doesn't mean a I like the rules they set, however I'm not going to lie about something just to get into a computer show. There are other shows, and other ways of getting in (why not try calling everyone you can find related to Comdex? The article seems like they only called once, probably the main number. Try finding the principals of the show, e-mailing them)

    (Full disclosure: I'm 19. My business was incorporated in 1993, at the age of 13. We've never had this problem for one simple reason: Our sales guy is over 21....he can take clients out for drinks if they like)

  • I am not sure how to take this. I dont think 'run around' properly describes it. The makes us sound like a bunch of little kids that have been given unlimited access to a candy store. We have legitamate reasons to be there, and that doesnt mean running to all the booths and getting freebies.

  • Nevada state law? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have absolutely no idea if this is related, but Nevada state law prohibits minors in "gaming areas." The casinos aren't particularly happy to kick out anyone, but they do it to protect their gaming license. Aren't many of the Comdex functions located inside conference rooms at the Las Vegas hotels? (Obviously not the big circus, but concurrent conferences.) It seems likely that the hotels would "know" that nobody under 18 would ever attend one of those conference and thus line the halls with slot machines. After all, Las Vegas is not known for being subtle.... If that's the case, Comdex could simply be enforcing statutory limits that the organizers agree are stupid, but are powerless to change. We really need more information before we start blasting Comdex for something that may be beyond its control.
  • several years back a group of my friends and I went to comdex in Atlanta... we werent older than 14-15 then.... guess its a new rule?
  • I would like to know what exactly the 18 year limit fixes. I mean, it's not like there's strippers and pornos at Comdex, right?

    You're thinking of AdultDex, not Comdex. :-) The pr0n stuff got kicked out of Comdex a few years back. AdultDex is a separate show that runs concurrently with Comdex to handle that kind of stuff. I think it's been at the Sahara in recent years, but I'm not sure as I've never gotten over that way. (I live in Vegas, so the hardest part for me of getting to Comdex is getting the time off from work. :-) )

  • I believe that Jeff Goldblum had an excellent line in Jurassic Park that went something like '...you spent so much time wondering whether or not you could that you spent no time wondering whether or not you should."

    Advocating that this boy _lie_ is wrong. He should try to negotiate with the Comdex officials, again. Go right up the line, to the very top. If he cannot attend the event, then he should live with it. Comdex isn't the end of the world. Lying may get him in, but it's still wrong.

    I'm sorry. What I meant to say was 'please excuse me.'
    what came out of my mouth was 'Move or I'll kill you!'
  • Thats not true at all. One of the main reasons companies incorporate is so the owners cant be held legally liable for anything. Once you incorporate your company can only be held liable for its assets. The officers of the company cant be held accountable for anything the company does. You could sew the company for millions, if they didnt have it, it wouldnt effect the underaged (or anyones) owners credit or anything. Same thing with deals, the corporation is its own entity fully cable of making deals, it acts sorta as an adult. The officer could be 2 years old, doesnt matter.
    Only recently have lawsuits tried to whole officers of companies accountable. I seem to remember one about an air plane crash, and the company officials were aware of the defect. This was a case of death though, not financial damage.
  • What totally pisses me off about all these laws is that being a 20-year old and PAYING TAXES to this wonderful country (and, by the way, more taxes than 3/4 of the population), I still can not buy myself a bottle of Heineken!! It's plain ridiculous - if they think I am old and responsible enough to support poor single mothers and to pay the politicians' salaries through my taxes, then at least I should be allowed to do what these poor mothers and politicians are allowed to do!!!


    The word "woman" is no longer politically correct.
  • I can relate to this person somewhat, as I founded my little company when I was 17. Granted it's not quite the moneymaker this company seems to be, but it keeps me comfortable.

    I ran into several issues back then, mainly that where I am (tx) a contract can't be legally binding. I had to go through all sorts of loopholes to get a sales tax ID, etc. And I wouldn't wish having to deal with the Tx State Comptroller as a minor on my worst enemy - - talk about a nightmare.

    My point is this: The 18 year threshold is waay outdated. I think it should be 16 (at least for most things).
    I mean think about it, in the U.S., you can operate a motor vehicle, but can't enter into a contract. You can be drafted before you can (legally) drink alcohol.
    I think there is too much residue left over from when most people actually subscribed to the 'think of the children' mindset. It's time for us, as a country, to grow up.
  • The CTO, as a minor, cannot be held legally responsible for his own actions

    Actually, he can be held responsible for his actions, as can his parents...but this is not about the kid. Comdex is responsible if he trips over a cord because Comdex let it happen.

    A better example would be, what if he started insulting everyone there (or, say, started spreading lies about everyone's favorite sofware company). Comdex could get sued as an accessory to libel because they let the kid in, and he's not responsible for what he does (see above).

  • Hey, I agree Comdex is being stupid. I wasn't the one who put it under the YRO section on /. either.
  • I have always thought it was odd that 18 yr olds go to war and die for their country but they cannot buy beer...
  • What bull As a fellow 17 year old trying to run a business I can relate. All our young lives it seems we have to be repressed to "learn" from the older generation, and that simply isn't fair. Never in my entire life have I been anything like other people who coincidentely share my age, I've yet to see why I should be treated a certain way because of it. It all starts in school (I prefer to call it a Pavlovian Temple) where we're surrounded by people with the seeming IQ of peanuts and a maturity to match and I can fully understand why they wouldn't be wanted. I am NOT like them, Why then am I treated like them? Perhaps I know why.. because all those people with their seeming IQ of peanuts are who inherit the Earth. The whole damn place is set up for idiots.. people who are too narrow-minded to see beyond themselves. It's simply not fair and it will remain that way. Majority rules when you can't see beyond yourself.
  • I thoroughly agree that the age restriction is due to leagal issues. I would ask if he's a emancipate minor. If no, I probably wouldn't let him in either, but if he is, and since he has a business, I assume he is, I don't see a problem...
  • Back in the spring, when I was still 17, I was plannin to go to Comdex myself. When i went to register, I saw the must you must be 18 to attend.
    I emailed the contact for Comdex listed on the page and explained my situation. In a nutshell, the reply I was given stated that as long as I could prove I was really attending for business, and I had a business card to present, they would let me in.
  • Amusing as it sounds that they make these rules so that kids won't see things that make Mommy sue, I've always been told by show organizers that it's a simple safety issue.

    The exhibit floor is considered safe enough for adults, but not safe enough for "children". Piles of wire with rubber mat thrown over the top and duct tape at the edges, booths that could probably be knocked over if kids chasing each other slam into them, etc. Here in the USA a person 17 years and 364 days is considered likely to crawl on their hands and knees and chew on the ethernet cable, but the next day is fully adult.
    It would be law suit city if they didn't do this.

    This is also why they could not care less if you lie to get in. All they need is to be able to go into a court and say that they made a Good Faith effort to keep "the children" safe.

    garyr
  • Maybe he wasn't whining, when in fact he just got hella marketing for his business. Do you realize how many people (even businesses) know about Matrixcubed now? So I guess his way of getting something done worked. Not only will he probably get into Comdex now, but also a significant number of people know about his business. brent 'a do a fie a fro alo. yes. kind of'
  • Maybe it's different in the States, but here, (Canada), although they have stupid rules, they at least have smart people
    I think you got it in one...
  • If alcohol is being served, wouldn't the agre restriction have to be 21? Last I heard, the drinking age in Nevada is still 21.

    -B
  • Yea, but do they card you when they give out the ID's? not likely. I know the article says "It's the principal of the thing" but I'll bet if he just tryed to buy a badge like anyone else they wouldn't check up on it.

    Well mabey they would now. But if he hadn't said anything I'll bet he would have gotten in just fine.
  • ... and I can go to war, carrying a certain sidearm (a pistol), yet I cannot buy one until I'm 21... (I seek not to start a gun debate).
  • So my question is, how do you bend the rules to allow a CTO of a company to attend who isn't 18? I submit that it's probably harder than just saying "Come on in!".

    The way everyone else gets around it: by using a permission slip from the parents or legal guardians.
  • You forgot the XXXML presentation.

  • Young people should not have to see ... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    people using Microsoft products. This guy is at a very impressionable age. Pr0n is one thing, but he shouldn't be exposed to stuff like Windows.
  • Yup... Never had a problem, I've been to COMDEX since I was 17 as well...

    /Simon

  • There may be LEGAL reasons for the age limit: (Score:4)

    by Reziac ( 43301 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @01:46PM (#1595740) Homepage Journal
    Does *ANY* function at COMDEX serve alcohol? Even just beer at a closing-time bash would be sufficient to bring it under the state laws re the legal drinking age -- minors are not allowed into a facility where alcohol is served, even if it's at a private after-hours party. These laws are VERY strictly enforced and the vendor can get stiff fines or do serious jail time if found to be in violation -- even because some 17 year old kid lied about his age and the vendor didn't know any different.

    I'm not defending such laws, COMDEX, nor the notion of "magic ages", just pointing out that it may be due to something COMDEX has NO choice about.

  • > Really, sounds to me that this guy is raising a fuss just to get attention for his company.

    That sounds right, I never heard of anyone not being able to get in because they were under 18, I've been to COMDEX twice before I was 18.

    This does sound like a PR stunt.

    /Simon

  • Re:Sure he can get in, just don't make deals. (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21, 1999 @01:52PM (#1595746)
    This is not true at all.

    I am President and CEO of a California corporation, and I am 16. According to California law, there is nothing that prevents a minor from holding stock without an adult being involved, and there is nothing that prevents a minor from executing his or her voting rights with that stock. In addition, a minor is allowed to function as incorporator.

    Furthermore, although you are correct that contracts with minors as individuals are not legally binding, one of the good reasons minors should incorporate is that when a minor signs in the name of the corporation, it is legally binding. The individual is not bound to it; the corporation is. This is true for minors and adults. The reason for this is basically that because you own the stock and you have legal rights to execute your voting rights, you can decide what the company does (ie signs to), and the company itself is liable.

    I have to sign "Joe Schmoe AS PRESIDENT" when I sign my name--but then, so does anyone.

    Also, when a company falls apart, the individuals involved cannot be gone after. The company is a separate legal entity. This is called "protection from liability," and is probably the #1 reason anyone incorporates.

    A lot of people assume the law is more strict than it is with regard to minors. This is just not true. I am personally in this situation and I think I should know :)

    You can read the California lawbooks at www.leginfo.ca.gov [ca.gov] or you can ask your lawyer.

  • ...that makes a strong case for the argument that this company is for real.

    Disclaimer: At the time of this posting, their site was up and lightning fast... if it goes down in the next hour or so, well, nevermind.
  • a programmer at 3, he already had 11 years experience

    Am I justified in being skeptical of a 3 year old "programmer", or am I just jealous that I didn't do anything remotely resembling programming until I was 9?

    I suppose Mozart wrote his first concerto at about the same age though...

  • Comment removed (Score:4)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @01:57PM (#1595750)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I'm 16, and my best guess would be they don't want lots of snotty little kids distirbing the busnessmen/reporters there. And I guess they figure 18 is the age when you are mature enough to handle yourself in a respectable manner. As everyone knows though, it differs for different people. It does suck, cause I consider myself mature enough to go to Comdex/E3, and I'd love to go with my dad to Comdex this year.
  • In base 5, for example, this guy is 34, which
    makes him more than old enough to get into
    Comdex.
  • With your reference to Microsoft being one of the companies being driven by a college drop out, I assume you mean Bill Gates. He didnt actually drop out of Harverd, he actually took a 'leave of absence' and has yet to return.
    That was the one new thing I learnt from that interview with Jeremy Paxman and Bill Gates. The rest of it was trash. Paxman managed to avoid asking *any* direct hard hitting questions, honestly one of the worst interviews hes ever done.
    Sorry for going slightly off-topic there =)

    Nick

  • I think it's great that these kids (I can't believe I can call them that now) are finding cool jobs in the industry. But I have one question-what's their secret? I am just finishing up a 4-year degree in IT, with a focus on Web Development, and 1 1/2 years of work experience in the field.

    While I have been inundated with calls from headhunters, they all seem to say the same thing: "We're really looking for someone with 2-3 years experience" What the f@ck is up with that? Where is this IT worker shortage that has been flaunted for the past 3 years or so? Seems to me a 4-year Bachelors degree in IT doesn't mean squat!

    Thank you for letting me rant. Pangus
  • While I agree that he should be allowed in, it seems somewhat obvious to me that the already-mentioned solution of simply lying to get the magic badge would do just fine for him. This leads me to believe that these folks are just parlaying the whole damn mess into a huge publicity grab. And hey, it worked.

    If the kid's smart enough to turn a fat profit doing what he does, the odds of him not concocting the obvious social hack here are pretty damn low. It's a decently shrewd move, all in all, and frankly I'm surprised how uptight everyone's getting about the ageism issue. The Man is playin' ya!

  • The real reason (Score:3)

    by Zen ( 8377 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @02:15PM (#1595761)
    You all should do just a mite bit of research before you go off on Comdex for requiring a minimum age. I've had tickets to go for the past few years (I'm 21 now), and I actually asked & found out why, instead of just bitching about it. It has to do with insurance. They have to pay a ton more in insurance costs if they're going to have kids out on the floor. Kids do have a habit of getting into trouble. You can still go at almost any age, I've never heard of anyone being turned away at the door, it's just a semi-under-the-table entrance. You sign up ahead of time, get your ticket mailed to you, and when you get there you have no problems at all. You might have to have an ID card to get your specialty tickets & stuff, I don't remember.

    But in reality, there is nothing stopping this CTO from going to Comdex. This whole story & the outrage is all based on a load of crap.
  • COMDEX is way over rated anyway. It's gotten too big to be of any value anymore. He should stick to smaller shows, like LINUX World! They let 2 penguins in who were nowhere near 18.
  • That's a common myth - if you go and fight/die for your country at 18, the bars on millitary bases allow 18-year-olds in.
  • >REBOOT.COM - B8 40 00 8E D8 C7 06 34 12 72 00 EA 00 00 FF FF

    Why so long? Do you really need to determine whether it's a soft or hard reboot?

    REBOOT.COM - 9A 00 00 FF FF
  • Mariage is the reality you're doomed for... Porn is wishfull thinking to escape that reality... Statistics show that the average American has sex for the 1st time after he/she reaches the age of 21, the average european at 18.. It is believed this is due to strict rules regarding sexual relationships.. (An 17 old girl is only a kid, a 18 year old girl is a hot young woman... *right*) Like always, your American laws are an insult to the people.. It's just like the minimum age for discos.. by the time your are old enough (21 orso), you either don't have the time for it, or you're spending the weekends with your girlfriend... I'm from the *real* Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave: Holland, God bless America... Manuel Beunder
  • Each year several tons of underage geeks attend COMDEX. They just use a badge with someone elses name on it. Cheers, gbs
  • It ought to be eighteen, which is in line with just about every other country. To vote, to join the military, to smoke, to drink, to get married, to run for office, and ESPECIALLY to drive a car.
  • The article said he saw the requirement on the registeration form, and called them to bitch. If he would have just kept his mouth shut he would have gotten in no problem. I went to Comdex a couple of times before I was 18 and never had a problem.
  • Yeah, and I can go to war and kill people when the government wants me too, but GAWD DAMNIT they won't let me shoot my bloody neighboor when he pisses me off. Whats up with that???

    -
    /. is like a steer's horns, a point here, a point there and a lot of bull in between.

  • Re:Second Class Citizens... or not citizens at all (Score:4)

    by Mr. X ( 17716 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @03:03PM (#1595786)
    >I think he has a very valid point and has every >right to attend Comdex.

    I'm sorry, but he has no 'right' to attend Comdex. Comdex is a private show, and if it wanted to only invite one-legged albino 35-year-olds, so be it. Many people's comments on this story are confusing the private act of Comdex with national/state laws regarding age to buy alcohol/tobacco/etc. They are totally seperate issues. There is no LAW saying you can't go to a trade show below age 18. Comdex has made a business decision, and obviously they value a kid-free event higher than they value the contribution a few under-18 year olds could make.

    I went to Comdex a couple of times before I was 18, knowing that they could ask me to leave. This didn't happen and I enjoyed the show. (I was never asked my age, either on the registeration form or by the Badge Agent). If he had just gone to the show, he most likely wouldn't have had a problem.
  • I am the network administrator and webmaster for my company. I'm only 17 years old. I am completely responsible (although technically not legally) for just about /everything/ dealing with technology at my company. I have begun seriously looking into VoIP, and other networking technologies. I /can/ afford to purchase products from vendors...in fact, I have recently purchased a bunch of new hardware for our LAN (a hub, routers, PC's, a server). I would have /loved/ to attend Comdex...it would have been a great place to get some info and demo's of things like new VoIP technologies. But alas, I'm 7 short months from being considered a real professional. I think that is bull. Comdex could easly get around the legal technicalitys of having minors attend, by only allowing minors who have a)verifiable IT jobs, and b)a sort of 'insurance' contract provided by aformentioned job. This would cover them financially, and legally ( I think...I don't have a law degree...but this seems to make sense..). I think this is just one more example of the stupidity of the 'magical 18' in the US. Just as the magic age used to be 21 (it still is for alcohol..go figure, you can choose the leaders of the country, but your not allowed to induldge in alcohol?), that became outdated, as kids grew up faster. I think we (the US) are rapidly approaching the point where most kids are 'grown up' earlier than 18. I think new laws should be made...but hey..I don't vote....so..what I think doesn't matter does it?
  • MatrixCubed is just playing the media (which includes slashdot these days)

    Everyone here seems to be making a big fuss over the "rights" of this 17 year old to attend. (this is a YRO story right?)

    I first attended Comdex in 1984, when I was 14. Since I live in Las Vegas, it's not that hard to get there. While in the past years they have had a statement about minimum age, they make on average two dozen exceptions EVERY year. In other words, if you are for real, and you ask, no problem.

    I know this because holding comdex really tasks this town for security people, and I know a few who end up working there for extra bucks. They all get the indoctrination on the different badge types, the show rules etc. Every year they hand out the list of "people under age who are allowed in anyways".

    This whole story is just a way for MatrixCubed to get some free press

    There was a time when /. was about people who are plugged in discounting the lies. That was the whole point of the "new-media". Now it has become just another instrument to get the populace roused up over non-issues.

  • Rites of passage had their advantage (Score:3)

    by jflynn ( 61543 ) on Thursday October 21, 1999 @04:33PM (#1595817)
    Good comment, I agree that this incident, while legal on Comdex's part, is a travesty.

    Being adult enough for killing at 18 and adult enough to drink at 21 shows how diffuse the U.S. notion of adulthood is. It seems to be difficult to say it happens at a certain age.

    Cultures used to have a thing called a "rite of passage" that defined adulthood more flexibly. These rites were often uncomfortable, and sometimes dangerous. Which may be appropriate after all -- irresponsible adults are expensive to society and can hurt others.

    I don't think it would work to invent a cultural rite or exhume one of the sometimes barbaric rites once used for the purpose. But things like marriage and military service should certainly qualify, and confer adulthood. Being a CTO probably should too. Existing vestigal rites like bar mitzvah and confirmation should be legally recognized only if they meet standards. We could allow a judge to declare a person officially of legal age when petitioned with evidence of maturity and responsibility. Being able to create, present, and defend such a petition isn't a bad test, though biased and expensive if you require lawyers.

    There is a lot to be said for treating adulthood as the difficult achievment it is, instead of an unearned privilege granted by age. There are also a lot of possible abuses in a system that validates adulthood. You have to wonder if society doesn't have the right to protect itself from 30 and 40 year old children though.
  • I'm now 21 myself. Even now I often get snuffed by a lot of jobs and such because of my age.

    Tell me about it. You think it's bad now... try being in your mid-thirties or older. The assumption seems to be that technology is a young man's game. If you're not young (and esp. if you're not a man) it's assumed that you don't know anything. On a good day it's assumed that you know some things but everything you know is obsolete or will be by next week.

    This is just more government supported discrimination.

    Here's where I disagree with you. In the workplace anyway, the government does what it can to prevent age (and other kinds of) discrimination. There are laws about that kind of thing. But they're almost impossible to enforce. Esp. if the one being overlooked for a job or promotion isn't in a recognized "protected" class of people.

    News flash - discrimination isn't just something that happens to racial minorities, women, gays, and people in wheelchairs. They get their share and then some, but no one is immune. If the government is going to go to all the trouble of having anti-discrimination laws, they should apply them to everybody.
  • Actually when I went to Comdex-Chicago back in March, the Linux Global Summit had an open bar. (Provided by our good friends at Caldera!) I was 22 at the time, and they didn't even ask for an ID. So yes, you can get Heinegin(sp), and both red and white wine at Comdex. (no mixed drinks though :( )
  • Basically, the problem is paranoia, driven by hypercapitalism. American companies are so driven by the need to profit that they will notice and conscientiously avoid anything that even remotely might cause them to lose money to the legal process directly (i.e. through a successful lawsuit against them) or indirectly (i.e. through resources consumed during an unsuccessful lawsuit against them).

    Let me get this straight. The sqeamishness of American companies to do things that will get them sued is a bad thing, and it is their fault that the legal system is screwed up? Huh?

    It was my impression that the purpose of the civil legal system was to provide incentive for people to not harm one another. If you break my window, I sue you to recover the cost, and add a punative damage to make sure you don't do it again. It would seem, then, that in a rational legal system, we would want people to try to minimize lawsuits, since this means that they are not stepping on the toes of other people.

    In an irrational legal system, on the other hand, people are punished for things over which they have no control(employee-on-employee sexual harrassment), are punished for things that were not considered crimes when they were done (Antitrust law), punished for selling products that were known by both sides to be dangerous at the point of sale (guns and cigarrettes), and for having products that are unpopular but and later proven perfectly safe. (breast implants)

    My question for you is this: what do you expect companies to do? They get sued over an unbelievable array of transgressions, and if they can get run out of business by just a few such lawsuits. How can you blame businesses for the sorry state of our legal system? What do you want from them?

    The problem with the legal system is not capitalism or large corporations but an abrogation of individual responsibility. When smokers sue tobacco companies, juries should realize that there have been warning labels on cagarettes for 20 years and acquit. When women sue breast implant manufacturers with bogus scientific evidence, jurors should have realized that the evidence was lacking and acquit. When employers get sued for employee on employee sexual harrassment, the jurors should realize that this is not something that employers can possibly control.

    Instead of holding people responsible for their actions, jurors see someone who was hurt, assume that the fault lies with whoever has the most money, and award enourmous damages against that defendent, regardless of whether they did anything wrong. Every few years lawyers come up with yet another novel theory to fleece yet another corporation with yet another trumped up charge. It is no wonder companies are scared to take risks. Those that have in the past have been driven out of business.
  • I expect the real reason they don't want anyone under 18 is because folks under 18 can get out of contracts. If you sign a contract as a 16-year-old, and you do not re-confirm the contract after you turn 18, you can get out of it. You'd have to return what they gave you, but that's not much help. There were a couple of famous cases of 17-year-olds buying Porsches, trashing them, and returning them the week before they turned 18. The dealer was stuck. I expect Comdex worries about liabilities.

    Also, there may be additional liablities to someone inviting minors. If the kid slips and falls or does something else stupid, you've got a bigger law suit than if an adult does the same.
  • I have to admit that I have been through this "age-inferiority" treatment more than once. As a 17-year old network operations engineer, I have been looked down upon because of my age multiple times. I've been able to get into "18 and up" tradeshows by showing my business card and license, but why the hassle? I can understand that tradeshows are supposed to be a business environment, and little kids running around are not exactly the image one gets when they think of big business, but banning the people who will be doing the business in the next few years? If 'we' are supposed to be future business leaders and all, 'we' (the youth) will make sure to avoid the companies that wanted to avoid us. Not exactly a bright business move, in my opinion. Age comes up a lot in my life, and my career -- many adults do not respect my authority over them, and many people on the same level as me do not respect me as an equal -- just as a high-school kid who would be better suited flipping burgers (or worse!).

    I do appreciate the respect I get from some people -- those are the people and companies that I will do business with in my future. I get a handfull of little pep-talks every day from the 'elders' who don't feel threatened by my being there. "Your on the right track!" "Your better off doing this than goofing off" "I wish I wouldn't have done such-and-such when I was your age...". Any company who wants to gain my intrest, and the intrest of the next generation of IT industry workers, needs to focus on, or at least listen to, the youth of today.

    As for COMDEX -- I refuse to attend any event that rejects me even with proof of an actual IT job. I do not plan on ever going back -- and it's entirely their fault.



    Oh well -- Some people will never learn. Human nature, I guess?/


    Jason
    email me with any comments, iota@inaxx.net
    also -- excuse the spelling errors, it's "past my bedtime" :)
  • 17 and younger are often required to be accompeted by an adult. (18 or higher)

    If something happened to the 17 year old while unattended, comdex would uninsured. It's a common practice.

    I imagine that they realize that it would be hard to keep track of a 17 year at Comdex, and therefore just ban kids in general. Comdex is not Disney World, you know.

    I imagine that if the 17 year old CTO promised to stay with the 18 year old CEO, Comdex would be okay with it.

    God, I'm almost 24 and I'm already starting to feel like I'm over the hill, especially on Slashdot.
  • >All we need is *more* drunk 15 year olds

    If drinking weren't made into such a big deal here in the US, I think our problems with drunken idiots would be a lot fewer (look at the much more mature manner in which Europeans in general handle alcohol, versus the attitude in the US). It could be argued that the way to get less drunk 15 year olds is to *decrease* the drinking age, not increase it. If kids are taught responsibility with alcohol early on, they're less likely to abuse it. And it also then is no longer the "rite of passage" some make it out to be with the current age restrictions.

    Besides that, I find it rather odd that most states are willing to give a 16-year old the privilege of driving a motor vehicle, with which they could easily kill themselves or someone else; yet people are not allowed to drink (which usually just affects themselves) until age 21. Something's a little screwed up here. Oh yeah, and I can vote at 18, serve in the military at 18, but drink? Wait 'till 21. It's as if the government is totally ass backwards...oh wait, it's the government :)

    Really...

    Driving a car has the potential to kill yourself or others fairly easily. Age: 16

    Serving in the military, possibly killing people during your service. Age, 18

    Use tobacco products (harm to oneself, and those unfortunate enough to get the secondhand smoke): 18

    Use alcohol (harm to oneself, that's just about it): 21

    Not only is it ridiculous from a risk point of view (since as you can see above we let younger people do far riskier things than drink), but from a responsibility point of view it's dumb too. Being able to vote, living on your own, serving in the military, etc demand at least as much responsibility as drinking a beer.

    Sure, some age limits are probably necessary. But let's make them follow some sort of logical order. The way the laws are now, there seems to be no reasoning behind the different age restrictions. If *everything* was at 18, it'd make sense. Or if the less risky things you were allowed to do at a younger age, that would make sense. But we're not doing either approach.

    I think the problem is not so much that being young and being naive go hand in hand, but that age does not go hand in hand with wisdom. Our politicians, despite usually not being all that young, pass idiotic and inconsistent laws. So what can we do but complain?
  • Anti-trust law has been on the books for decades

    Yes, but when it was first put on the books, it was put there (IIRC) to deal with whatever monopoly was being a pain in the ass at the time (I don't remember which, it's been a while since I took history :) He actually does have a bit of a point, though I don't see how that would in any way invalidate anti-trust law, especially today as it's been around for decades now.

    industry/corporate America is responsible for most of the legal difficulties of our U.S. system

    How so? It seems to me that our legal difficulties are due to two problems: 1) the idiots we have in government, and 2) ourselves for putting those idiots in office. After all, the companies aren't the ones writing the damn laws. I will admit though that companies (and unions, for that matter) have way more influence under our current system than they ought to. The situation could be fixed but simply banning any political contributions from any entity other than US citizens (and put a reasonable limit to how much individuals can contribute). Of course, that would require that the idiots in office actually do what's right; and that the voters actually vote them out of office if they don't.

    If cigs kill people (they do), shouldn't the cig companies STOP selling them?

    Well, they probably *should*, from a moral perspective. But we shouldn't be legislating morality (history has shown us it's a bad idea). It's really the responsibility of the individual to not smoke. The laws shouldn't be used against the tobacco companies, unless the tobacco companies lied about or withheld evidence about the harmful effects of smoking (there is evidence that they did indeed do that). If people are stupid enough to smoke and not quit, well I guess it's natural selection at work.

    As I see it, the laws are there to protect our citizens from each other, not to protect John Doe from himself. If I want to smoke myself to death, then that should be my right. As long as I don't expose anyone else to the fumes, why not?

    If you think an individual can make up their mind on their own, then how come cig manufactures spend billions each year on advertising?

    Because they need some way to distinguish their products from the competition. If you don't advertise, how is your customer supposed to know if your product is better? Name recognition doesn't hurt, either.
  • btw call me stupid, but what is the difference between a CEO (ChiefExacutiveOfficer?), CTO, COO, Cwhatever, where these American sites always talk about?


    Chief Executive Officer
    Chief Technology Officer
    Chief Operations Officer
    Chief Financial Officer

    Those are all of the C?O I can think of right now in the company I work for...

    Kintanon
  • The reason there are anti-geezer laws in effect in the United States is that old people are disproportionately represented in government

    ...and the a big part of the reason that they're disproportionately represented in government is that geezers vote. If young people voted in the same proportions that old people do, their representatives would take more notice of them.

    There is a voting age, and people younger than that aren't allowed to vote. But they can still have a say in government. If you can't vote, write to your representatives. Tell them that in n years you will be old enough to vote and that you'll remember how your representatives behave(d). You're not powerless just because you're too young to vote.

    That having been said, discrimination (age, race, gender, whatever kind of discrimination) isn't bad because your government says it's bad - it's bad because it's counterproductive.
  • A person at 65 will stay "old" for the rest of his or her life...

    True, as far as it goes. But there's another factor at work. A person at 65 has, maybe, 20 more years during which they can vote, spend money, etc. After that they're dead and no one will care. A 17-year-old has, maybe, 70 years left to do that. If young people treated their votes like they were worth something, politicians would too. "Get 'em young and they'll be yours for life", is how advertizers treat the youth market, because young people do spend money. Political parties would do the same, except too many young people don't vote.

    ...and has the knowledge of what runs politicians (money) to get things done.

    Knowledge is power. But old people don't have a monopoly on knowledge. They may have most of the money, but (1)that's changing fast, and (2)money can't buy a vote. It's about the only thing left that money can't buy.

    AARP is a huge lobbying group, that's true. But there's no law saying young people can't lobby too. If they did, you can bet that politicians would listen.

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