New York Sues Valve For Enabling 'Illegal Gambling' With Loot Boxes (arstechnica.com) 79
New York state has filed a lawsuit against Valve alleging that randomized loot boxes in games like Counter-Strike 2, Team Fortress 2, and Dota 2 amount to a form of unregulated gambling, letting users "pay for the chance to win a rare virtual item of significant monetary value." From a report: While many randomized video game loot boxes have drawn attention and regulation from various government bodies in recent years, the New York suit calls out Valve's system specifically for "enabl[ing] users to sell the virtual items they have won, either through its own virtual marketplace, the Steam Community Market, or through third-party marketplaces."
The vast majority of Valve's in-game loot boxes contain skins that can only be resold for a few cents, the suit notes, while the rarest skins can be worth thousands of dollars through marketplaces on and off of Steam. That fits the statutory definition of gambling as "charging an individual for a chance to win something of value based on luck alone," according to the suit.
The Steam Wallet funds that users get through directly reselling skins "have the equivalent purchasing power on the Steam platform as cash," the suit notes. But if a user wants to convert those Steam funds to real cash, they can do so relatively easily by purchasing a Steam Deck and reselling it to any interested party, as an investigator did while preparing the lawsuit.
The vast majority of Valve's in-game loot boxes contain skins that can only be resold for a few cents, the suit notes, while the rarest skins can be worth thousands of dollars through marketplaces on and off of Steam. That fits the statutory definition of gambling as "charging an individual for a chance to win something of value based on luck alone," according to the suit.
The Steam Wallet funds that users get through directly reselling skins "have the equivalent purchasing power on the Steam platform as cash," the suit notes. But if a user wants to convert those Steam funds to real cash, they can do so relatively easily by purchasing a Steam Deck and reselling it to any interested party, as an investigator did while preparing the lawsuit.
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Why not both?
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Jesus Christ man it's 2026, there's a housing crisis, you really need to stop letting people live rent free in your head.
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you make rsilvergun sound like a very intelligent, interesting, and correct person, that I have alot in common with, which is weird, because I've always hated every rsilvergun post I've ever read
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It's funny that this twit hasn't figured out that his years long harassment campaign just makes rsilvergun more sympathetic to any rational person.
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News headlines now declared as random risk and are outlawed. Because, anyone outcome could happen, when a journalist spits out a headline. The journalist is now a "lootbox" of sorts. New York outlaws journalists. (And even commenters, why not.)
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"valve has taken several measures to try to stop the gambling"
yeah, everything except removing the literal gambling mechanics
gaben bought a yacht, his company doesn't have real ethics anymore
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the kind that is aware of artificial scarcity and modern monetary theory
having a billion dollars is inherently malicious behavior
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gaben bought a yacht
Actually Gabe bought a yacht company.
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Except as defined here gambling requires a game of chance and a predictive market at least in theory is not about chance but predicting actual events, which in most cases will involve skill (unless the particular event is “what ping pong balls will be pulled from the bucket” or “what numbers on the dice after roll”, but things like “will Russia end the Ukraine war by the end of 2026
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Re:Oh fuck me (Score:5, Insightful)
It's targeted at kids and young adults who are the majority of the players, and valve makes money selling crates AND keys you need to open crates, even ones you get for free in game. Then they get sold on the marketplaces for real world money. I honestly can't believe it took this long for some legal authority to act on it.
It's baseball cards, except that with loot boxes, you are guaranteed to get something that has some actual in-game value or use, whereas baseball cards are just something to collect and look at. If baseball cards are okay even though they really don't provide any guarantee of utilitarian value, why aren't loot boxes, which presumably do?
This is not at all similar to gambling. With gambling, you can walk away with nothing. With loot boxes, you are buying something that is guaranteed to have some value.
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I agree, CCGs and baseball cards should also be treated as gambling. As for "actual in-game value or use," I'd say that's not true in this case. Most skins are essentially worthless on the marketplaces. And as skins, they have no function other than "something to collect and look at."
They have perceived value to someone, but perhaps no intrinsic value.
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They have perceived value to someone, but perhaps no intrinsic value.
How many meaningful kinds of cash value are there? Off the top I count three: initial retail cost, replacement cost, and whatever someone will pay now.
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And as skins, they have no function other than "something to collect and look at."
My kids are into collecting skins in Roblox and Fortnite and I just don't get it. Back when I gamed, you just pick the skin that's the smallest target and run with it. I couldn't imagine spending real money on this.
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Back when I gamed, you just pick the skin that's the smallest target and run with it.
Not sure larger skins really make the target bigger algorithm wise. Maybe it makes the target more visible/noticeable but that would be about it...
Otherwise, the algorithm would have to adjust for each and every skin in real time once a shot is fired.
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Skins do not change model size or hitboxes. They are literally just for looks.
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CCGs and baseball cards should also be treated as gambling
Except they are not gambling. Anyone here who thinks these are gambling doesn't have even the faintest idea of what gambling actually is.
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Do something about the predictive markets. It is just as if not more illegal and 10 times the size of any gambling going on with steam.
Predictive markets aren't targeting 14 year olds turning them into future gambling addicts.
Meanwhile valve has taken several measures to try to stop the gambling but it's not really possible without shutting down how the games trading system works
Respectfully, I love Valve too man, but please take your tongue out of their ass. No they have not made any effort to stop the gambling. In fact they are held up as a shining example of just how fucking bad this system can be. Not only do they not stop it, but they claim a percentage of *EVERY* transaction, not just the first purchase. If an item changes hands 4x then Valve literally takes more commission than what th
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are you employed bro?
I'm sure he's employed, obsessing about another person is just his hobby. Let the man wank to what he wants.
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1000%
Thousands for game artifacts? (Score:1)
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the New York suit calls out Valve's system specifically for "enabl[ing] users to sell the virtual items they have won
The monetary value is in being able to turn around and directly sell what you gambled to get. It really couldn't get much more blatant if they tried.
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They can only sell them for store credit on Steam, there's no way to actually cash out. Best you could do is buy some SteamDecks to resell.
Re: LOL (Score:2)
You can just buy games as a "gift" after selling on eBay. There are lots of ways to convert credit to dollars.
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Which doesn't make any sense because the monetary value is an entirely make believe value dreamed up by the players themselves. Valve doesn't assign a value, only a rarity. Not all of the rarest skins have high value, because the players don't want it for one reason or another. When you are gambling for real, you are "giving" money to the same source(s) that you are potentially getting money back from based on some form of luck.
What's next? We start suing Wizards of the Coast for gambling because they creat
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Virtual items do have monetary value, and have for a substantial number of years now. People have been paying real dollars to buy WoW gold for well over a decade, and I assume in games before that.
People value what people value, it sounds dumb because it is so obvious, except people forget it all the time. Something you think is worthless (I assume WoW gold, and Fortnite skins) someone on earth would like to have, and they want it more then they want dollars. It may not make much sense to you, but I
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Yeah, I kept mine as the value went up, and then back down. Eventually decided I hadn’t played in a decade and sold them all for $15k which was far more then I bought them for (I bought them a combination of retail and wholesale prices for random packs, never bought a card specifically, nor traded, just bought mass quantities and ended up with some interesting things).
Re: LOL (Score:1)
Re: LOL (Score:2)
Found the coward unfamiliar with steam
Card Games (Score:5, Informative)
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Oh, there's a point. And schools often call those games gambling.
I think the OP is referring to how when you purchase packs of the cards, you don't know what you're getting until after you've purchased it.
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Which still isn't gambling. Random != gambling.
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And they're wrong.
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Similar but not the same. Loot boxes that only contain skins legitimately provide nothing practical to the game itself - nothing changes about the game or gameplay. Booster packs (physical or digital), on the other hand, give you more to play the actual game with.
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Except it's not so random. if you look at a booster pack, they actually now say what's inside. It'll say things like "Each booster pack contains 1 rare or mythic card, 5 uncommon cards, 10 common cards" and generally speaking the cards are evenly distributed so if there are 15 rares you have a 1/15 chance of getting one particular one.
Loot boxes are quite a bit different in that they often don't specify what you're buying - how often is the ultra-rare
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Card rarity categories in Magic don't tell the buyer what the value of the cards are though. A rare can be worth tons of money or be almost worthless, it's a total roll of the dice on what that rare card will be.
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Because WotC doesn't set a value to any card. The value is entirely determined by the players and the supply/demand of the cards among them. And those values change over time as the supply or demand changes. It's closer to a stock market than it is to gambling. Even if they tried to tell you the value, by the time the pack was sold and opened, none of them would be accurate, except for maybe basic lands and such.
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And I would legitimately place bets on you having zero clue what you're talking about.
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The act of opening a pack of cards is still very much akin to opening up a loot box. It's gambling on good results either way.
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It's gambling on good results either way.
No, it's not. Because only the players can determine what is a "good" or "bad" result. What is good to you might not be good to me. What is valuable to you might not be valuable to me. Gambling-like behavior is not the same as gambling. A secondary market created by the players for the players that encourages further gambling-like behavior in attempts to make a profit is not a WotC problem. That's a generic societal and mental health problem.
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Of course we were never talking about "good" and "bad" results. What we were talking about was monetary value and that is indeed a total crapshoot when opening a pack. The vast majority of rare cards cost less than the pack of cards which is the entire reason a secondary economy selling the cards can exist. It's total luck to get a pack who's total worth is more than you paid. Just like loot boxes.
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What we were talking about was monetary value and that is indeed a total crapshoot when opening a pack.
Because the cards are not intended to have monetary value. The cards aren't supposed to be worth anything. That's the whole point. You buy the boosters in the hopes you find interesting and/or good cards to create decks from and play the game. The fact that there are people out there who would rather pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a card is not WotC's problem, nor does it constitute gambling. People who buy boosters purely in the hope to gain more monetary value than they put in are stupid. People
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Same thing with loot boxes in video games.
So it now sounds like you agree with me in way too many words that loot boxes and Magic booster packs are the same thing in the context we are discussing? Great.
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And baseball cards. And computer processors ("silicon lottery"). And Woot.com bags of crap (https://www.woot.com/offers/bag-o-crap-8).
bleh (Score:1)
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why dont they sue infinity nikki instead that takes $300/mo from me and my wife
Infinity nikki is stealing from you? You should file a police report.
Hey! Don't screw me out of my revenue! (Score:3)
blaw & morder (Score:1)
as long as the court keeps believing in the significant monetary value of digital art thanks to artificial scarcity, as long as it keeps pretending scarcity that can be defeated by ctrl-c is a real thing, society will keep degenerating.
Like five dudes own p much everything, and keep prices high through the games you can play when you own the entire production chain, well documented and well known. What you THINK they're doing? Hint: it aint making stuff cheaper (nor better for that matter)