Brazil Ended Daylight Saving Time. But It Might Bring It Back (msn.com) 104
Brazil ended daylight saving time in 2019, reports the Washington Post, adding that some Brazilians loved the change, "particularly those who commute long distances and are no longer forced to leave their houses in pitch blackness." But "In the heavily populated southeast, the sky begins to brighten at the unconscionable hour of 4:30 a.m. during the summer, and by 8 a.m., it feels like high noon... Polls showed it ultimately lost majority support..."
And then "After several energy emergencies, and with the prospect of more to come as the effects of climate change intensify, the vanquished daylight saving time is suddenly looking a whole lot better than it once did to some in the Brazilian government." Authorities almost mandated the return of daylight saving — a portion of the calendar when clocks are turned forward to maximize seasonal daylight — late last year to conserve energy amid a historic drought that had threatened hydroelectric power generation and drove up light bills. The government is already laying the political groundwork to restore it as soon as this year...
Latin America's largest country is a global leader in green energy. An astounding 93 percent of its electricity comes from renewable sources, according to Brazil's Electric Energy Commercialization Chamber, the majority of which is hydropower. This strength, however, has also left it vulnerable to global warming. As temperatures have warmed and punishing droughts have grown more frequent, the country's water reserves have dropped precariously low at times, jeopardizing its primary source of energy. In 2021, an extended drought depleted the country's water stores, driving up light bills by an estimated 20 percent, according to the National Chamber of Electric Energy. Then came last year's drought, the worst in 70 years, and government officials started to look more seriously at daylight saving.
Alexandre Silveira [Brazil's mining and energy minister] said that month that the decision to eliminate daylight saving had been extravagance Brazil could scarcely afford. "It was massively irresponsible, without any basis in science," the energy official said. "We're living in a period of denial in Brazil in all aspects." José Sidnei Colombo Martini, an electrical engineer at the University of São Paulo, told The Washington Post that decision to end daylight saving amounted to a "national bet on whether it is going to rain." And the bet is expected to become increasingly risky as the years pass. "Brazil has always had a massive amount of available water compared to other countries — storing 12 percent of the planet's surface — but this is being altered," said Suely Araújo, public policy coordinator at the Climate Observatory. Estimates show "we could have a 40 percent reduction in our water availability in Brazil's principal hydro regions by 2040. Brazil has entered a new reality... "
Should other countries end Daylight Saving Time? "People and governments all over the world are having the same debate," the article points out, "often coming to conflicting conclusions." Countries including Azerbaijan, Mexico and Samoa have done away with daylight saving time. Meanwhile, Jordan, Namibia and Turkey have gone the opposite direction, opting for permanent daylight saving time. And Russia, discovering there's no way to tell time that pleases everyone, first tried permanent daylight saving time, then scuttled it.
And then "After several energy emergencies, and with the prospect of more to come as the effects of climate change intensify, the vanquished daylight saving time is suddenly looking a whole lot better than it once did to some in the Brazilian government." Authorities almost mandated the return of daylight saving — a portion of the calendar when clocks are turned forward to maximize seasonal daylight — late last year to conserve energy amid a historic drought that had threatened hydroelectric power generation and drove up light bills. The government is already laying the political groundwork to restore it as soon as this year...
Latin America's largest country is a global leader in green energy. An astounding 93 percent of its electricity comes from renewable sources, according to Brazil's Electric Energy Commercialization Chamber, the majority of which is hydropower. This strength, however, has also left it vulnerable to global warming. As temperatures have warmed and punishing droughts have grown more frequent, the country's water reserves have dropped precariously low at times, jeopardizing its primary source of energy. In 2021, an extended drought depleted the country's water stores, driving up light bills by an estimated 20 percent, according to the National Chamber of Electric Energy. Then came last year's drought, the worst in 70 years, and government officials started to look more seriously at daylight saving.
Alexandre Silveira [Brazil's mining and energy minister] said that month that the decision to eliminate daylight saving had been extravagance Brazil could scarcely afford. "It was massively irresponsible, without any basis in science," the energy official said. "We're living in a period of denial in Brazil in all aspects." José Sidnei Colombo Martini, an electrical engineer at the University of São Paulo, told The Washington Post that decision to end daylight saving amounted to a "national bet on whether it is going to rain." And the bet is expected to become increasingly risky as the years pass. "Brazil has always had a massive amount of available water compared to other countries — storing 12 percent of the planet's surface — but this is being altered," said Suely Araújo, public policy coordinator at the Climate Observatory. Estimates show "we could have a 40 percent reduction in our water availability in Brazil's principal hydro regions by 2040. Brazil has entered a new reality... "
Should other countries end Daylight Saving Time? "People and governments all over the world are having the same debate," the article points out, "often coming to conflicting conclusions." Countries including Azerbaijan, Mexico and Samoa have done away with daylight saving time. Meanwhile, Jordan, Namibia and Turkey have gone the opposite direction, opting for permanent daylight saving time. And Russia, discovering there's no way to tell time that pleases everyone, first tried permanent daylight saving time, then scuttled it.
Same in the U.S. (Score:5, Insightful)
In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time". It was repealed one year later because there were so many complaints. Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same.
Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
People are stupid and need to STFU.
Examples of Global Agreement. (Score:2)
Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time". It was repealed one year later because there were so many complaints. Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same. Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT. People are stupid and need to STFU.
An entire planet decided long ago and agreed on a global scale that it is indeed the year 2025. Regardless of who your God is.
How many military forces on Earth recognize Greenwich, England as THE time zone to synchronize global operations to? You think they don’t get the job done regardless of where the sun is in the sky?
I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazil’s early daytime complaint. I wonder how many clickbait bullshit compl
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazilâ(TM)s early daytime complaint.
It's only inside the Arctic Circle that there is 24 hours of daylight in the summer. Even so in the parts of Alaska outside of the Arctic Circle there's summers where the sun rises at 3AM and sets at 9PM, then in the winter it's sunrise at 9AM with sunset at 3PM. Well, I guess that isn't quite right because Alaska observes DST, so it's sunrise at 8AM with sunset at 2PM? It's something like that. How is that an improvement?
An entire planet decided long ago and agreed on a global scale that it is indeed the year 2025. Regardless of who your God is.
What gets people tied up in knots is if this is 2025 AD or 2025 CE. I'm with Dr.
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In Fairbanks at the winter solstice the sun rises at 10:58 and sets at about 14:40.
At the summer solstice it's 02:57 and 00:47. Even though the sun officially sets year round it never really gets dark between mid April and mid August because the night periods never leave the twilight stage.
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If the term "anno Domini" offends you then I suggest using some other calendar. There's still places on Earth that observe different calendars, they just keep some kind of "cheat sheet" on hand for conversions to the Gregorian calendar used by most of the world.
They do use another calendar. It's a fork of the Gregorian calendar where "AD" has been replaced by "CE".
The Catholic church saw no need to "respect" the ancient Romans when they made minor tweaks to the Julian calendar. Why do the majority of the world's population who see no particular significance to the 753rd year of the Julian calendar have to assign a supernatural name to it?
Re: Examples of Global Agreement. (Score:2)
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They deserve zero respect or consideration.
I mean... unless their God is real, in which case He gets to make that call, not you.
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If the term "anno Domini" offends you then I suggest using some other calendar.
I suggest you shove it up your arse.
I'll use this calendar with "CE" if I want to, and it's none of your damn business. In fact, I didn't really give a shit one way or another before, but from now on I'll make a point of using "CE" all the time just to annoy people like you.
The catholic "church"** is a bunch of oppressive, sexist, reactionary pedo enablers who attempted to crush various scientists and their discoveries. They deserve zero respect or consideration.
** Capitals omitted and "church" placed in quotes as a mark of disrespect.
You forgot, they're also the richest organization in the history of humans. They just don't declare it out loud, because some of those riches have been with them nearly since the inception of their church. If money is power and power corrupts, the Catholic church is at the forefront of proving that out in nearly every measure.
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My grandfather ran a dairy and didn't want to change the time twice a year for milking and chores, so ran his own "time zone" that was a half-hour off the rest of the surrounding area all the time. It took another generation for someone to realize that they were inconveniencing the humans when all they really needed to do was adjust schedules for chores and milking when the clock changes.
Now, society-wide, I think we should just let the clocks be, and let regions change their schedules as they wish. This co
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I grew up on a dairy farm and the change of the clocks really upset the cows. They had expectations on when they needed to be fed and milked and if that didn't happen then they'd make noise. It would have been impractical for us to run on our own "time zone" because we needed to be able to fit our time at school in between the milking. We'd milk at 5:30 AM, go to school, then milk again at 4:30 PM. Once evening chores were done it was time for a meal, schoolwork, maybe some TV watching, then bed. We ha
No need for DST in the Tropics (Score:2)
I wonder how many people living in Alaska during the (perpetual daylight) summer are laughing at Brazil’s early daytime complaint.
I do not live in Alaska but Canada at a latitude only a little below Alaska and frankly I am left wondering why on Earth Brazill would want DST at all because it is on the equator and almost all of the country is in the tropics. Daylight savings times is only needed in northern and southern latitudes to deal with the significant changes in daylight between the seasons - currently here sunrise is around 8am and sunset about 4pm. In the summer, with DST, it is dark only from ~10pm to 6am but without DST that
Re: No need for DST in the Tropics (Score:2)
However, being in the tropics, Brazil sees hardly any variation in daylight over the year and so has no use for DST
As some trivia loving people already pointed out on social media, the northernmost place in Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southernmost place in Brazil.
With such a large territory, eventually someone would be unhappy with DST or lack thereof.
Distance from Equator, not Separation (Score:2)
As some trivia loving people already pointed out on social media, the northernmost place in Brazil is closer to Canada than to the southernmost place in Brazil.
The problem with that fact is that it is irrelevant when discussing timezones. What matters for DST is how far from the equator you are. Brazil stretches from ~5N to ~33S whilst the southern most point of Canada, an island in lake Erie, is at almost 42N and the nothernmost point is 83N. Now if you only look at latitude differences then Canada has only a slightly larger range than Brazil and yet Canada, at its northern extreme varies from 0 to 24 hours of daylight through the year and even at its most south
Re: Distance from Equator, not Separation (Score:2)
do you live in Brazil ? i do, in the southernmost state (near uruguay). I usually wake up with the sun light in the morning. That means that during the summer i wake up at 5h30 and during winter i wake up at 08h!
with DST that difference will be smaller and better for my body, since i feel drained earlier at night for waking up this early
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do you live in Brazil ?
No, I live in northern Canada that, even with DST, still has a much, much larger variation in sunrise than you experience. If the sunlight bothers you buy some heavier curtains or wear a blindfold because I, and every other Canadian and northern European are living proof that your body can adapt to way more significant variations in daylight than those that seem to trouble you.
You may prefer to have DST and that's fine but arguing that you actually need it when you live at most 30 degrees from the equat
Re: No need for DST in the Tropics (Score:2)
I have a feeling that people define DST based on the time when the sun reaches its zenith. Iâ(TM)ve just had a couple of days in Rio and Iâ(TM)d say that there were a couple of hours of wasted daylight in the morning that I would have appreciated in the evening. Sounds like a case for permanent daylight saving! Iâ(TM)ve said the same about my home in London, where Iâ(TM)d appreciate double daylight saving all year around, giving me a chance to see daylight after work in some of winter
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States tried a year-round daylight saving time? I recall this being illegal.
Perhaps I'm mistaken but I remember reading somewhere that states had the option to choose either year-round standard time or follow the federal daylight saving time schedule. I'm guessing this is to prevent any time zone border difference to exceed one hour. If a state in one time zone chose permanent standard time, and the neighboring state chose permanent daylight saving time, then crossing that border always means a two hour
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I suspect you misremember. For example, Arizona's choice works only because they're on the west side of their otherwise-assigned time zone -- an "always Standard Time" state on the east side oof a time zone would be two hours earlier than their neighbors to the east during summer.
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I suspect you misremember. For example, Arizona's choice works only because they're on the west side of their otherwise-assigned time zone -- an "always Standard Time" state on the east side oof a time zone would be two hours earlier than their neighbors to the east during summer.
That makes sense but then with the law on choosing only DST or standard time this two hour difference exists only for the summer months than through the entire year. Allow states to choose permanent DST as well as permanent standard time, on top of being on a time zone border then could this not create a year round three hour time difference on a border? Maybe not, I haven't had enough coffee yet to math this early in the morning.
Whatever the case it seems clear to me that the federal government wanted to
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Re:Same in the U.S. (Score:4, Informative)
>"Perhaps I'm mistaken but I remember reading somewhere that states had the option to choose either year-round standard time or follow the federal daylight saving time schedule"
You are correct. Currently in the USA, States can choose to follow time changes twice a year (honor DST) or to stay on Standard Time year round. There is no option to stay on DST year-round.
There was an effort, several times, primarily led by Florida (and supported by other States) to try and force standardization on ST with no time changes, the "Sunshine Protection Act." Although it had bipartisan support, and once passed the Senate by unanimous consent in 2021, it ever passed into law (died in the House).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
You're ignoring the obvious and probably most popular solution, namely doing away with it altogether.
Re:Same in the U.S. (Score:4, Informative)
>"Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it. " [...] " People are stupid and need to STFU."
Remembering and experiencing things are different, and things change.
>"Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT."
The *only* time that has been "implemented" in modern American history was in 1972 for two years. I am guessing 90+% of those on Slashdot were not even alive then or were so young, they wouldn't remember. And things have changed a lot in 53 years.
>"Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same."
Since then, NO State has been allowed to try it, because it is illegal. States can only choose to honor DST time changes, or stay on permanent Standard Time. There is no option to change to permanent Daylight Saying Time.
Also, "A 2023 YouGov poll found that half of Americans supported permanent daylight time, 31% were in favor of permanent standard time, and 19% had no preference or were not sure."
Polls can vary, of course, but based on that one, it means that a super-majority of Americans want time changing to STOP. And a significant majority (62%) want that option to be permanent Daylight Saving Time (summer time).
Personally, I support permanent DST. But a reasonable compromise for now would be to at least change the Federal law to allow States to choose ANY of the three options, instead of just two. Then the experiment can happen.
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I don't see anything in the US Constitution granting authority over time to the federal government. As such, by default, it lies with the states.
The federal government asserts control over time under the inter-state commerce clause, but the US Supreme Court has never ruled on the matter.
If a state decided to adopt DST year round, there is very little liklihood it would be challenged, and if it was, they would probably lose
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Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same.
That's a good trick, when doing so would require the US congress to approve a state to go to year round DST, something that has never happened, and will never happen since the 1973 fiasco.
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In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time".
Yep, I remember walking to school in the dark. A chilling experience in a Michigan winter.
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Walking to school in the dark is preferable to driving home in the dark, which is what happens under standard time. Most kids don't walk to school anymore anyways, they take the bus even for nearby schools.
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Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
Is there evidence that those are the same "people"?
Right now there are three categories: people who want a change, people who don't want a change, and people who are not expressing an opinion on the topic. It's entirely possible to see a majority in the first category, make a change, and find (some of) the third category suddenly get vocal. You may simultaneously see a bunch of people formerly in the first category go silent because they've got what they want. Point is... even if you suddenly seem to h
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Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
In 1973 President Richard Nixon signed a law putting the U.S. on permanent (year-round) "Daylight Saving Time". It was repealed one year later because there were so many complaints. Since then a few states have tried permanent DST and the result has been the same.
Every year, people complain about switching to/from DST. And every time permanent DST is implemented they complain about THAT.
People are stupid and need to STFU.
The thing is, some places really benefit from daylight saving time, others don't. the UK does because there is a huge difference between the number of daylight hours between winter and summer, Australia does not because there isn't just a huge gulf. Australia can get most of it's daily life done in daylight without chanigng the clocks, the UK can't unless you want it to be dark at 9 AM in mid winter or broad daylight at 3:00 in mid summer.
The majority of Brazil's population lives in the south but even th
Hyperbole much? (Score:5, Insightful)
by 8 a.m., it feels like high noon
I'm pretty sure that Daylight Saving Time will only shift that to happen at 9 a.m., and that it is not really much more sensible to complain about 9 a.m. feeling like "high noon" than 8 a.m.
Re: Hyperbole much? (Score:2)
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But not having to start the day at 4am because the damn roosters crow, and all the farm animals got their start means not having to wake up at 3am. Besides, the math on energy savings by shifting it 1hr in the summer has been established for a very very long time. When the fall time shift went from the 2nd Sunday in October to the first Sunday in November, it was measured in millions of barrels of oil of savings for just the US alone. Thats just 14 hours. 14 hours of extended day saved millions of barrels o
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But not having to start the day at 4am because the damn roosters crow, and all the farm animals got their start means not having to wake up at 3am.
Then ... maybe TFA should use that as an argument? But I don't think it would be very convincing: a very small percentage of people are livestock farmers, many of them will be able to just go to bed earlier, and there are adverse effects from changing the timing of lights.
Besides, the math on energy savings by shifting it 1hr in the summer has been established for a very very long time. When the fall time shift went from the 2nd Sunday in October to the first Sunday in November, it was measured in millions of barrels of oil of savings for just the US alone.
That doesn't seem to be true. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/arti... [mcgill.ca] points or that research is very mixed on the net effects of DST. For example, it says:
A 2008 literature review found that simple estimates find a roughly 0.5% decrease in energy because of residential lighting reductions. However, it concludes that if gasoline consumption is considered, the energy-saving effects of DST disappear.
It also points out why some farmers would like "Standard Time" during summer, and that
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I don't get why this is so hard for people. If YOU prefer to wake up and hour early or later depending on the time year to go with the daylight, then DO SO YOUSELF. Change your alarm clock setting don't force the entire world to go back and forth hour. We no longer need to change the time for energy savings, electronics need no longer be set to turn off base on a hardcoded time of day, you can set it to turn on/off on different times throughout the year, or even based on if its bright outside or not te
Re:Hyperbole much? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get why this is so hard for people. If YOU prefer to wake up and hour early or later depending on the time year to go with the daylight, then DO SO YOUSELF.
You don't get it because you are completely dismissing the whole point of a common clock: society agreeing on what happens when.
You cannot always decide to just show up 1 hour earlier or later, e.g. if you have a job that require you to be present at a specific opening hour and the shop decides to keep the opening hour at 8 AM after the time change.
Also note that in some places opening hours might be regulated, meaning that even the shop owner might not be allowed to open 1 hour earlier or close 1 hour later than what it's officially recognized.
Making everyone happy (Score:3)
>"And Russia, discovering there's no way to tell time that pleases everyone"
This is the key takeaway. Very few of us have experienced always Standard [winter] Time or always Daylight Saving [summer] Time. The grass is always greener on some other side.
I hate time changes, so I would support ANY plan to stop it. Personally, I wish we were on permanent DST. Even with time changes, it is still dark when I go to work in the winter, but it is often dark when I get home. I would rather have more useful daylight near the end of the day in winter. Far more productive and less depressing.
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You never travel? Try doing a few WestPac’s and talk about time changes. Especially crossing the IDL. Clocks move forward 23hrs going westward. Think rolling clocks back an hour is weird; try losing an entire day.
A Plan to Avoid DST (Score:3)
I hate time changes, so I would support ANY plan to stop it.
Here's your plan then: move to a country near the equator where there is no need for DST because the daylight remains roughly constant throughout the year and so there is literally no need for DST.
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Hence the article.
Much of the their country lives between the Tropic of Capricorn and the Equator and some still want it.
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I emigrated to Canada from a country that did not use DST. At first, I thought people were joking about changing clocks. I hate the twice-yearly change. Standard Time all year around is best, and that's what sleep experts recommend [ontariotechu.ca].
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Very few of us have experienced always Standard [winter] Time or always Daylight Saving [summer] Time. The grass is always greener on some other side.
Plenty of people have. All you need to do is get in a car and drive from Lubbock, TX to Montgomery, AL and you've done that with spades. The sun rises and sets just an hour more than you're used to. That's the stupid part about all of this.
I would rather have more useful daylight near the end of the day in winter. Far more productive and less depressing.
I used to think everyone thought this until I found someone who thought the opposite with good reason. Especially in warmer places the world heats up during the day. It's one of the reasons much of Spain shuts down in the afternoons and re-awakes at night. Anyway the pers
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Most of the world doesn't use DST. It's really only Europe and north America. Major economies like Japan and China cope just fine without it, while covering wide longitudes.
I don't change my clocks at home.
Solution (Score:2)
Set up quarter hour time zones rather than full hour. This will reduce the stress felt at the edges of timezones.
Brazil? (Score:3)
Brazil is in the tropics, it has no need to change the clocks for winter.
Re:Brazil? (Score:5, Informative)
There's parts of Brazil that is as far to the south as Austin, Texas is to the north. I can assure you that Austin experiences seasonal changes. Austin might not see as dramatic of a seasonal change as cities further north, such as perhaps Chicago, but if DST makes sense for Texas then it makes sense for Brazil.
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DST doesn't make sense for Texas, though. Because DST doesn't make sense for anywhere.
Brazil is on the Equator, how did that even work? (Score:2)
Summer time makes sense where you have a summer, not around Equator, so you'd need to have places that do observe summer time and places that don't based on latitude (heck, maybe even some that do it on reverse being on the other hemisphere). That is beside having multiple time zones due to the longitude. How did this even work in the past?
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Living in Arizona. Or North Carolina. Or Maine. (Score:2)
Living in Arizona (non-Navajo territory) I revel in the lack of Daylight Savings Time. Early sunset and late sunrise in the winter is not an issue for me, and hardly anyone else. Later summer nights and morning walks in the sun only impact me when it won't go below 90F in the night, well welcome to the desert.
But spending time in North Carolina taught me about the time zone impact. NC being a bit more west than Maine, my home at the time, sunrise was noticeably later. And it seemed that people started late
Science? (Score:2)
I thought there was scientific evidence that the switch to DST and back is NOT capable of saving significant amounts of energy – isn't that one of the most cited reasons for its abolition, beside what it does to people?
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DST is not necessary (Score:1)
It is unnecessary to move time around for you to move around daylight, you can just wake uo earlier. Just like it is unnecessary to devalue your own currency to sell more of your product, you can just lower prices.
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It is unnecessary to move time around for you to move around daylight, you can just wake uo earlier.
If you wake up earlier, what are you going to do with that time? Rake leaves? Hoe the Garden? Apply insecticide and herbicide? You can't, because you have to go to work in an hour or two, and have to clean up everything, put it away, take a shower, dress nice for work, school, or whatever, and there's very little time to get done what you need to be doing. Plus, at dawn, its often chillier than it is after work or school or whatever.
The way to get things done on workdays is to have the evening daylig
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You wake up and go to work earlier and come home earlier, OMG, what a concept. To have summer work hours, winter work hours... Time doesn't change, your waking time changes. People worked this way forever, until they allowed themselves to be ruled by other people to the degree, high enough, that the rulers started changing time. This is just par for the course. DST was introduced by an overbearing government and imposed onto people, it is the same concept as government controlling the money supply and
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To have summer work hours, winter work hours..
That's neatly handled already by DST, but without having to remember hundreds of individual work hour dates and times for every organization you deal with.
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You do realize that anything other than a sundial is "Gubmn't oppression !!!!1!! Derp! Derp!"?
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You do realize you're a ranting kook?
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OK, your message is a rant such as which would be written by a kook.
FFS, go back and look at it yourself. You'd be much happier in life if you weren't just wallowing in your own victimhood.
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ha, yet somehow, literally for tens of thousands of years people managed to synchronize their work time just enough to accommodate each other in their respective environments. You are a tool, you are under impression that DST is something that the all knowing omnipotent God given government provided the grateful humanity literally since the dawn of civilization and that any other ideas are anathema and need to be stopped in their tracks.
Couldn't be further from the truth, of course. DST was implemented nat
4:30 sunrise is early (Score:2)
just switch the southeast to a different timezone, set the clocks back an hour so in the summer the sun comes up at 5:30, it dont mean you have to go back to seasonally changing the clocks again.
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Maybe "at the, IMHO, unconscionable hour of 4:30 a.m."
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Conserving energy? How? (Score:2)
Authorities almost mandated the return of daylight saving — a portion of the calendar when clocks are turned forward to maximize seasonal daylight — late last year to conserve energy amid a historic drought that had threatened hydroelectric power generation and drove up light bills.
DST doesn't change the number of daylight hours, it only shifts them earlier by one hour. How is that shift supposed to "save" energy?
In the US, lighting accounts for only about 4% of electricity usage. Air conditioning, over 50%, refrigeration, water heating, and appliances take the rest. Of those, the only one that would be affected by DST is some of the lighting.
I realize that Brazil isn't as air-conditioned as the US, but it's quickly gaining ground. The point is, electricity use for lighting is a small
Daylight does not change (Score:1)
Set 12PM to be when the sun is roughly at its apex in the sky, and quit fucking around.
A novel idea (Score:2)
Brazil is close to the equator, so WTF? (Score:2)
Brazil is close to the equator. Even at the furthest tip from the equator, the latitude is about 33.66 degrees South, so sunrise and sunset times there only vary over a total of about two hours. And for parts of Brazil closer to the equator, the variation is even less than this. In Sao Paulo, the variation is only about 90 minutes total.
Why don't they just stick to standard time?
Noon (Score:2)
Noon is the hour closest to when the sun is highest in the sky. Start there.
Having The State force everybody to make their clocks lie is the most hamfisted way to deal with changing seasons.
When I need to go to a store I look online to see what their hours are today. Y'all, Home Depot has hours that change with the seasons so unless you are going around lunchtime don't assume anything. I learned the hard way that they aren't open at 6am in July. At least they weren't fifteen years ago. I would check today
Re: Noon (Score:2)
When I need to go to a store I look online to see what their hours are today.
This.
And once you do that, everyone can just use GMT.
Permanent DST Not Possible (Score:2)
Try it, and in 10 years, schools, then businesses, will have shifted their operating times to preclude morning darkness for commuters for work or school, with commensurate time taken out of the evening, again.
What results is getting home from work with darkness just an hour or two later, or not if you have a long commute. For long commutes, you arrive home in the dark. Big disadvantage that any outdoor work or play gets moved to the weekend where you could otherwise have done some other work or play. Th
Re: (Score:2)
Try it, and in 10 years, schools, then businesses, will have shifted their operating times to preclude morning darkness for commuters for work or school, with commensurate time taken out of the evening, again.
This is exactly what should happen. We should stop messing with the clock and just adjust business and school hours at times of the year and in places where it makes sense. There is no good reason why work or school has to start at the same time in December as is does in June. As to if we should stay on standard or daylight time, why not just split the difference and have all clocks set forward 30 minutes year round. There are plenty of places in the world where the time zones are not hour aligned. It would
Re:Permanent DST Not Possible (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Actually people just hate change period. Do anything and you'll have an uproar and people wanting the reverse. There are plenty of examples around the world of places which had no DST tried it, and backed out again. About as many places which have DST, get rid of it and then want it back.
Re: (Score:2)
Because they implement the DST removal wrong.
The correct way to remove DST is to set all public facilities (and recommend all private schools and businesses) to set 2 timetables, one for summer and one for winter, such that the removal of clock change happens while the dual schedule habit remains temporarily. Later on, individual organizations may start to adjust according to their local needs.
Adjust work hours to mitigate problems (Score:1)
Work hours could simply be changed both to fit the daytime, and preferably spreading out rush traffic, with machines taking over manual labour it should be possible to have shorter work days, avoiding the artificial 8 hour work day
If most people in a developed country get to do useful work and we avoid most exploitation, overconsumption and stupid waste, then there is about 4-5 hours work for all, and the problem of DST is solved in a humane way which also helps with climate change, plastic and crime
Also it is COSTLY to change (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Think of all the things with clocks that have the automatic change built-in. All those things not connected to the internet need software/manufacture updates to change to end DST. Ooops want to revert to the way it was? same problem going back.
Most devices which can automatically adjust to DST, whether they are connected to the Internet or not, already support this - they have to because of Arizona, which doesn't do DST. Even so called "atomic clocks" that read the government broadcast time signals (which include a flag when DST is active) usually have a switch on them to indicate if DST should be honored or not.
Re: (Score:2)
This is what bothers me most about Dubya happily changing the week back in '08 or so. Back then there wasn't so much stuff with the DST parameters baked in. Most computers these days depend on a time zone file that is updated along with the OS. If you're using an end-of-support OS, then it sucks to be you.
At this point, the only things that wouldn't have trouble are those so-called "atomic clocks", which are actually radio clocks. One bit in the WWVB signal, transmitted every minute of every day, specifica
One more time for those not paying attention (Score:3)
Daylight. Saving. Time. Does. Not. Save. Energy.
That crap may have worked to get Dubya to pass changing the week in the US, but it's still wrong. Don't be Dubya.
Look at the name. Does it say "Energy Saving Time"? No, it says "Daylight Saving Time". It moves (or at least tries to) daylight to not be so early in the summer when you're trying to sleep. (There is also only one 'S' in 'Saving'.)
"B-b-b-but I hate it!" The effect of DST is different in different places. In the US alone, the northern and southern states have significant difference in solstice day lengths, and every time zone has eastern and western edges. You may live where it sucks, but a lot more people live where it doesn't suck. Arizona and Indiana have tried to make it suck less for them, without forcing the rest of the country to suck more.
Disaster (Score:1)
Brazil needs a new timezone, not DST (Score:3)
- Oiapoque, BR at 4 longitude: Solar Noon is noon all year
- Sombrio BR at 34 longitude: Solar Noon is 11:45 all year
The complaints come from a city like Salvador which being southeast has solar noon at 10:45 all year. The issue here isn't daylight savings time. The issue is that Brazil's Brasilia time (BRT), UTC-3 spans 1.66 solar hours and is based on the standard 45th west meridian. Salvador happens to be 120% into what would be the UTC-2 timezone, but Brazil has its entire east coast on one timezone. Adjusting time to make the populous Salvador happier in the summer will cause solar noon on the far western part of BRT to be 1:30PM.
It make more sense for Brazil to create a UTC-2 timezone for their eastern-most states than re-implement DST.
Re: (Score:2)
Minor correction there: you mixed latitude and longitude ....
- Oiapoque is at 4 degrees latitude North (above the equator), and
- Chui (not Sombrio) is at 34 degrees latitude South
Solar noon does not indeed vary much between them as they sit at a similar latitude (52 West for Oiapoque and 53 West Chui). What varies, immensely, is the duration of the day and night cycles, which vary little on Oiapoque (close to the equator line) and a lot in Chui (further away).
Still, the point about Brazil needing two or ma
Maybe they picked the wrong time zone. (Score:2)
In Sao Paulo, https://www.timeanddate.com/su... [timeanddate.com], the sunlight is from 5:16 to 18:52 at the southern hemisphere summer's solstice.
Nautical twilight starts at 4:20 and ends at 19:47. If they don't like it, they could just use the next timezone, all year (no DST) and it would be 5:20 to 20:47 instead. Or keep their current timezone but change their habits. This is definitely not a good argument for DST.
It's a bit worse in Porto Alegre which is further south, but many major cities such as Tokyo don't have DST a
The fault lies with people's schedules (Score:2)
This is my take on it. Let's consider the typical workday in an industrialized country. Let's also assume the sun is near it's highest point at 12:00 local time (noon).
You wake up around 7:00, have your breakfast and go to your work; a 9 to 5 job. Or better phrased, a 9:00 to 17:00 job. Here is already the first hint of a mis-alignment: the halfway point of your working period is already at 13:00, an hour behind noon... After work, you go home, shop, cook, eat dinner, the usual stuff. You're done by 19:00,
Time Units Are Naural, not arbitrary. (Score:4, Insightful)
The sun peaks at the middle of the 24 hour day. Solar noon. 12:00(roughly)
Adjust your business schedules to suit your taste. The time on the clock has far more actual meaning than all this DST nonsense..
You shouldn't call it Daylight savings this time a (Score:2)
When you end up taking it back, there's no savings, what are they on about
Pshaw, brightening 4:30 in the morning (Score:2)
The sky starting to brighten at 4:30 in the morning is nothing. Regards, latitude 62.4 degrees north.
On the other had: 2025-01-06: Sunrise 9:37. Sunset 15:08. Length of day: 5 h 30 min.