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The Courts

Judge Will Not Dismiss Lawsuit Claiming Poland Spring Water is Not From a Spring (msn.com) 99

Posted by msmash from the not-so-fast dept.
A federal judge in Connecticut refused to dismiss a long-running lawsuit accusing the former Nestle Waters North America of defrauding consumers by labeling its Poland Spring bottled water as "spring water." From a report: While rejecting some claims in the proposed class action, U.S. District Judge Jeffrey Alker Meyer in New Haven called it an open question whether Poland Spring qualified as spring water under the laws of Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island. Poland Spring is now owned by Tampa, Florida-based Primo Brands, following multiple corporate transactions. Consumers sued Nestle Waters, then owned by Nestle, in 2017, saying it deceived them into overpaying for Poland Spring with labels declaring it to be "Natural Spring Water" or "100% Natural Spring Water."

The plaintiffs said "not one drop" of the 1 billion gallons sold annually in the United States came from a natural spring, and that the actual Poland Spring in Maine "ran dry" two decades before Nestle bought the brand in 1992. In seeking a dismissal, Nestle Waters said geologists and officials in the eight states agreed that Poland Spring complied with a U.S. Food and Drug Administration rule defining spring water, and each state authorized its sale as "spring water."

Judge Will Not Dismiss Lawsuit Claiming Poland Spring Water is Not From a Spring More | Reply

Judge Will Not Dismiss Lawsuit Claiming Poland Spring Water is Not From a Spring

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  • My spring water always tastes a little rusty.

  • F.D.A. (Score:1, Troll)

    by geekmux ( 1040042 )

    Since those defending their marketing are legitimately passing the blame-buck onto the FDA with regards to the legal definition of “spring” water, I think it’s safe to assume the “FDA” means something else now.

    Full of Dumb Asses.

    I’d love to toast the FDA approval team with a fine vintage barrel of radioactive waste. I’m sure that qualifies as “clean” water to them.

    • Re:F.D.A. (Score:5, Informative)

      by LazarusQLong ( 5486838 ) on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:02PM (#65059931)
      Not really, I just read the FDA's definition of spring water and it seems like a reasonable definition to me... Whether or not the Poland Spring people are lying however is a different discussion.

      the FDA's definition of Spring Water: "Spring water. Derived from an underground formation from which water flows naturally to the surface, this water must be collected only at the spring or through a borehole that taps the underground formation feeding the spring. If some external force is used to collect the water through a borehole, the water must have the same composition and quality as the water that naturally flows to the surface."

      Sounds like a reasonable definition to me.

      Ref: https://www.fda.gov/consumers/... [fda.gov]

      • OK, let's try this. There's a city here named Colorado Springs. Are there any springs in the city? I don't know, but let's assume that there aren't but there are aquifers being tapped for the city's water. Now, as long as those aquifers are tapped and bottled inside the city limits, it could legitimately be called "Colorado Springs' Water." Would that be acceptable to the FDA?

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by LazarusQLong ( 5486838 )
          uh, I do not believe what you describe is what the DFA's definition says... that said, I know of Colorado Springs, so, thanks for the mansplaining, and yes, it is named because back 100+ years ago when it was founded it probably had springs.

          Ref: "American Lower Eocene coal deposits[15] of the Colorado Springs lignite field. Eponymic mineral springs, which flowed in 1912 from aquifers under the elevated landforms, included Horn's Mineral Springs at 1210 Lincoln,[1] Monument Springs[16] on Monument Creek's

          • The reason for the over-detailed description was to set up a situation where the water came from a location with the word "springs" in its name but without there being any actual springs involved. I was wondering if the fact that the location was named that way was enough for the FDA or not. Clearly, you think that wouldn't be acceptable.
            • well, the definition seems to say that it must be from either an actual spring or from the aquifer from which the spring springs. .
              • That it does. However, the name I suggested for the product states that it's water from Colorado Springs (note the position of the apostrophe) not that it's from a spring located there, so that the name was literally correct.
                • ugh, missed that! my bad! In addition, the more stressed out I am, the more i take things literally.

                • > so that the name was literally correct ...and does not meet the FDA's definition unless the water was drawn from a formation that meets that definition. Simply being from a city with the word "Spring" in the name is very obviously not sufficient here.

                  =Smidge=

                  • That's your opinion, and to be honest, mine as well. However, in the unlikely event that something like this ever got to a jury, you can never be sure how that jury will decide.
                • I think Colorado Springs Water could simply be municipal tap water, with added chlorine, lead pipe residue and all.

                • It's a separate thing. You could have "Colorado Springs tapwater" or "Colorado Springs water", but those would not be springwater and "Colorado Springs springwater" which would have to be springwater.

            • Both this hypothetical and the actual Poland Springs will have a second line of text in small print at the bottom of the label. This will either say Spring Water or Drinking Water. That is the line that is most relevant and their products currently specifically say "100% Natural Spring Water."

              • That, of course makes an important difference. But what would the legal situation be without that line?
                • In that case, the judge should definitely throw out the case on the grounds that Poland is not in Europe!

                  (It's like America exists in an alternate reality, dammit)

        • The issue is that Nestle are calling their Polish Springs water Spring Water, not that the name contains the word Springs in it.

          Here's a picture of the label: https://m.media-amazon.com/ima... [media-amazon.com]

          FWIW that was covered in the summary.

          • Yes, I know; I RTFS. I happened to think up a similar situation that might squeeze past the definition and wanted to see what people thought of it.
            • but your "similar situation" was not similar at all, the problem part is the "100% natural spring water" on the label, that you cannot work around no matter what the place is named where you source your tap water.

        • it could legitimately be called "Colorado Springs' Water." Would that be acceptable to the FDA?

          Why wouldn't it be? "Colorado Springs" is a place and a proper noun. On the other hand Poland Spring Water isn't water from a place called Poland Spring. It's Spring water from a place called Poland. Even a 5 year old would be scratching your head as to why you thought this would be a a problem. Now if someone sold Colorado Spring Water, or Colorado Springs Spring Water then the FDA may have something to say.

      • So basically if it was ever a spring, it can just be made into a well.

        • sounds like that may be true, if the well is sourced from the aquifer that fed the stream

          • Am waiting for the ball to start rolling on products putting "Chicken and X" or equivalent on the product name to get looked at by the FTC/FDA for having less than 50% chicken by weight.

            For example, moisture content of cheddar cheese is regulated:

            contains not more than 39 percent of moisture, and in the water-free substance, contains not less than 50 percent of milkfat
            https://www.ams.usda.gov/grade... [usda.gov]

            • I wish we had cheddar that tasted anything like the cheddar that comes from the town of that name in the UK. That stuff is sooooo good.

              Of course, I am also naive enough to wish that our elected officials gave a damn about us.

              That'll never happen.

      • If the definition was that reasonable, care to explain a lawsuit not being dismissed arguing against the claims of “spring” water from a source that dried up literally decades ago?

        If the definition is that clear, care to explain why eight states have specific definitions that are being cited in a lawsuit? Why do individual states even need their own definition? Isn’t that what the FDA exists for?

        I’d say the FDA definition is about as clear as mud based on legal actions.

  • Truth in advertising (Score:3)

    by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Friday January 03, 2025 @12:38PM (#65059833)

    Truth in advertising will happen when it is important enough to people to demand heads roll when they discover they have been lied to.

    The lawsuit is nice, but I'm not betting on it winning. I don't think truth is valued more than money in the US. At least, not by a sufficient percentage of the population.

    • Re:Truth in advertising (Score:4, Informative)

      by LazarusQLong ( 5486838 ) on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:04PM (#65059943)
      as I recall, the truth in advertising law we used to have was gutted during the Reagan Administration. I remember a case back then where Sears had advertised a sale price that was very, very low, and didn't then honor that sale price, in court they argued that the printer of those sale documents (actual paper pamphlets) had incorrectly listed the price for the item. Sears won.

      • One of the first things I noticed coming to the US in the 1990s was that pricing in ads beared no relationship to reality. I don't mean because of local sales taxes, I mean at all. A phone company advertised their long distance as being X/time period and no monthly charges? (remember those 10-10 services?) No, they'd stick fees on your account each month you used it. If you tried to complain, other Americans would jump in and defend it as "taxes" even when it clearly wasn't. Cable subscriptions likewise. Nu

        • I understand, when I was a soldier back in the 1980's our Base required that the cable operator seel cable with exactly all fees listed and no cable operator could advertise a rate without those fees added, so my $20/month service that actually cost $32/month suddenly was advertised as costing $32/month with the various fees listed.

          it really chaps my ass how 'truth in advertising' laws that we used to have have been raped, gutted and set on fire.

          Reading in Wikipedia it appears that the original spring

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      I suspect this isn't about that, but about that recent Supreme Court decision that threw out requirement for courts to defer to executive's bureaucratic structures for answers on question like "does this qualify as that".

      So now a lot of these cases where defending party presents statements from officials that "we agree with this definition", and court doesn't just throw the case out based on it in deference to the officials. It can actually make its own determinations instead.

  • Look at a bottle of Deer Park Spring Water. Notice the asterisk next to the word "spring water." On the back, it explains that the water comes from the municipal water supply of one of several cities that are fed by spring water. So it is not spring water at all! The entire point of "spring water" is to be free from the additives they put into the municipal water supply. It must be captured *before* it is put into the municipal supply or the term has no meaning.

    I have relatives who refuse to drink muni

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Knowing that the FDA looks the other way on the term "spring water" reveals what a farce the entire industry is. They might as well call it "bespoke" water or "magical" water.

      Holy water isn't holy either.
    • The entire point of "spring water" is to be free from the additives they put into the municipal water supply.

      As opposed to all the additives mother nature puts into spring water such as fluids from dead animals including piss and shit. And let us not forget all those additives the water obtains while flowing through the ground.

      • "As opposed to all the additives mother nature puts into spring water such as fluids from dead animals including piss and shit."

        Uh no
        That's river water.

        "And let us not forget all those additives the water obtains while flowing through the ground."

        You mean that make it taste good? You know springs are tested for harmful minerals right? Both dissolved and not.

        • put a bit more piss in it and it 's american beer! Which is probally more healthier to drink than US water , just like the medieval times

          • There's one "good" reason to drink the most terrible of American beers, which is that they function as a kind of energy drink and they are cheaper than bottled water when on sale. Canned light beer is handy dandy when you're on the lake all day.

      • Are we better evolved to handle forest runoff and minerals or pharmaceuticals, microplastics and silicofluorides/lead?

      • Spring water gets filtered by rocks. Very similar to the filters actually used in water filtration systems. Those same rocks have minerals that add a good flavor. Definitely cleaner than lake or river water but definitely not sterile by the time it gets removed from the spring.

        • Minerals in your water don't actually taste good - you are just used to them and you notice when they are gone. If you strip them out using RO + DI you'll get used to the taste of pure water pretty quickly, and after a few weeks everything else will taste funny to you.

          • You could say the same things about seasoning food with salt. I will still take my salt

          • False.

            I used to live in whispering pines, a neighborhood on Cobb mountain, and all of the water in the house was spring water. I drank it, bathed in it, washed my car with it. It tasted great.

            Then I moved to Kelseyville and into a house with a well that had very high iron. I put in a RO filter. The water always tasted flat and boring.

            If you're going from a shitty spring to RO then maybe you're right, but it's not a rule.

            The spring which fed my neighborhood is now owned by Nestle.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by higuita ( 129722 )

      You Americans do have everything in your food chain messed up...

      At least in my country, spring water DO require a spring, 100% juice is really just juice, you can't even add water or sugar... and even Orange Fanta had to put some orange juice in it (8% i think) or else they could not even be allowed to call it orange... in the USA, fanta have NO orange at all !! It also have 1/10 of the sugar of the US version

      "The Orange flavor recipe outside the US contains orange juice, while the American version does not

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      A spring is nothing more than water from an aquifer that percolates to the surface via gravity or hydrostatic pressure. Really no different from what you'd get from a pumped well. Which is what many municipalities use for their supply.

      It must be captured *before* it is put into the municipal supply or the term has no meaning.

      True. A bit of filtering isn't a problem. But the nanny state spends far too much time dictating what chemicals I must consume. In some cases, municipalities can deliver untreated water for some customers. For example: Why fluoridate the process water delivered to the local pa

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dryeo ( 100693 )

        The water pipes are often full of bacteria in those cases. The lack of fluoride wouldn't be a problem, lack of chlorine would.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by PPH ( 736903 )

          The water pipes are often full of bacteria in those cases.

          Bacteria from where? Aquifer water is generally pretty clean. After all, farmers pump it up and spray it on your food.

          If you suspect that the plumbing may be contaminated, you can 'dose' the system with chlorine. Bleach works well. Close the system up, throw away the chlorinated contents and then commence drinking.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dryeo ( 100693 )

            You get leaks and stuff. Around here they do flush the system with chlorine now and again and was one of the reasons for using chloramizine (ammonia and chlorine) in the water system. Water comes from mountain streams here and is considered some of the best in the world.

            • Water comes from mountain streams here and is considered some of the best in the world.

              Does a bear shit in the woods?

              Never mind bears. What about https://www.critterguard.org/blogs/articles/5-dangerous-diseases-spread-by-raccoons">racoons?

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by dryeo ( 100693 )

                The raccoon's hang out in town. Did have a friend catch beaver fever (Giardiasis) from drinking out of a stream, had a hell of a time getting it diagnosed. I avoid drinking out of streams now.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      I don't know, I think if people are stupid enough to believe in the mystical properties of spring water (any spring water), they should be allowed to believe in the mystical properties of advertising.

      "Poland Spring is now owned by Tampa, Florida-based Primo Brands", a Florida-based company, you say. Gee, what doesn't spell honesty like a company headquartered in Florida selling Maine "spring water".

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dryeo ( 100693 )

        Spring water often has minerals in it, nothing magical about it, we need minerals and rain or distilled water is lacking in those minerals. Drinking only distilled water long term is not healthy. There's also the question of whether drinking a mixture of chlorine and ammonia is the best idea, it sure kills fish quick.
        One if many articles on distilled water, https://www.verywellhealth.com... [verywellhealth.com]

  • Regulation as Protection (Score:3)

    by RossCWilliams ( 5513152 ) on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:01PM (#65059923)

    Most consumer protection regulation of industry actually serves as protection of the industry from these kinds of lawsuits. They create a barrier of legal hurdles that companies can hide behind while being pitched as consumer protection.

    Look at regulation of the organic industry that allows huge corporate farms to use vast amounts of pesticides and fertilizers to produce "organic" products at a premium price. And not incidentally prevents competition from small family farms that can't afford to pay for organic certification. Without those regulations the small farms would be able to sell their products as organic. But consumers could challenge the pseudo-organic industrial farm practices that carefully skirted the regulations to call stuff "organic" when the only difference from their non-organic produce was the field it was grown in was certified organic.

    It should surprise no one that companies are selling tap water in plastic bottles with all sorts of labels to make it appear purer than the same water coming out of your faucet at home and the regulations are designed to facilitate it.

    • Definitions from Oxford Languages
      organic
      /ôranik/
      adjective
      1.relating to or derived from living matter.
      "organic soils"


      Almost all food is Organic. Practically everything you eat is organic. Even the shit not labeled as such, except for probably water and minerals like salt. But drink water and have salt anyway. Otherwise you'd die.

      For the love of christ, do not make eating decisions based on what a marketing department or a government agency says. It is like you forgot why we fought a Revolut

    • Re:Regulation as Protection (Score:4, Interesting)

      by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:37PM (#65060065) Homepage Journal

      Oh, it's worse.

      THEY certified human sewage as organic and a huge area of NW Texas took Dallas sewage and - whoops - it turns out that sewage had PFAS in it and now hundreds of thousands of of acres of prime farmland (lettuce, IIRC) are unusable for centuries.

      Because government nationalized the definition and certification and those corrupt fucks did this.

      I purposely avoid organic vegetables now. Give me veggies grown with ammonium nitrate synthesized from natural gas over human sewage any day. What I can't grow here and preserve that is.

      And they haven't even talked about the hormones and SSRI's yet.

  • Misunderstanding! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:09PM (#65059955)

    Your honor, the water was exclusively tapped and bottled in Spring. The season. That's why it's called "Spring Water".

  • Do you really want spring water? It can have all kinds of bacteria and in some areas even toxic minerals/chemicals such as arsenic. References: https://health.clevelandclinic... [clevelandclinic.org] https://cleanairpurewater.com/... [cleanairpurewater.com]

    • > Do you really want spring water?

      Let's say it's a bad idea.

      Fraud is still fraud. Human adults must not be infantalized by their social systems, to maintain peace and prosperity.

      • I agree, my point was that spring water isn't necessarily a good thing. Of course people should not be sold something fraudulently. I just dont agree with buying into the organic/nature BS.

  • This is "News for Nerds? Stuff that Matters?" (Score:3)

    by dbialac ( 320955 ) on Friday January 03, 2025 @01:41PM (#65060073)
    I don't think this matters to most of the visitors to this site. I've never even seen this water available where I live.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Pascoea ( 968200 )
      https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPo... [reddit.com] You may not be familiar with "Poland Springs", but Nestle most certainly does (well, did. It's not Nestle anymore) the same shit coast to coast. Most of their water is just bottled municipal water from whatever city is nearby.

  • would be distilled water with mineral additives (for electrolytes)

    FWIW I drink Propel immune support (with extra powder)

  • I already don't respect or acknowledge any water ownership or water rights. I collect and drink any from any water source I damn well please.

    It doesn't matter what the laws are: no one individual or company gets to own any water sources. No one gets to own the falling rain. It's like trying to claim you own a certain amount or area of air.

    Everyone has the right to clean water to drink. Anyone, or any company, that makes it more difficult to get clean water should be absolutely destroyed. Violently.

  • That bottled water you are buying, is loaded with plastic. So even if you did get the water from a spring, you are tainting it with plastic. You think a company like Nestle is going to take the time to get the plastic out of your drink? Think again.

    • If the water comes from a spring, the plastic has probably been filtered out by the water passing through rocks. But then of course it goes into plastic bottles which leach toxic compounds into their contents...

  • Lost already (Score:3)

    by reg ( 5428 ) <reg@freebsd.org> on Friday January 03, 2025 @07:03PM (#65060803) Homepage

    If the defendant is "Nestle Water," not "Nestle," they've already lost because the suit has been moved into a shell corporation, which is probably already in debt and will have no assets left if the case goes to trial.

  • Coke (Score:2)

    by MrKaos ( 858439 )

    Last time I checked the way coke do it near where I live is they bought some land with access rights to the spring water and then they drain the spring so now the farmers that were originally around them have some difficulty getting access to the water for their fruit farms. Basically abusing the terms of the lease but there is fuck all anyone can do about it.

  • There are no water products that come from a pure natural water source ! All come from a city water dept. Now, they need to ban organic, range free, cage free, all natural from any produce cause it's all Bullshit and you're paying extra for that label ! You can't have enough production from range free, cage free chickens to make $$$ and gathering costs would be too prohibitive.

  • It is, one quarter of the year.

  • But it does come from Poland?

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