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The Courts United Kingdom

UK-Based Dissident Can Sue Saudi Arabia For Alleged Spyware, Court Rules (reuters.com) 44

Posted by BeauHD from the would-you-look-at-that dept.
A judge has allowed Saudi dissident Yahya Assiri to sue the kingdom for allegedly targeting his devices with Pegasus spyware and other Israeli-made surveillance tools. Reuters reports: Yahya Assiri, a founder of the opposition National Assembly Party (NAAS) who lives in exile in Britain, alleges his electronic devices were targeted with surveillance software between 2018 and 2020. He is suing Saudi Arabia at London's High Court, saying the country used Pegasus - made by Israeli company NSO Group and sold only to nation states - and other spyware made by lesser-known Israeli firm QuaDream because of his work with dissidents.

Earlier this month, Roger Eastman, a judge in the High Court, gave Assiri permission to serve his lawsuit on the Saudi government, a step that required the court to find Assiri has an arguable case. The decision announced on Monday to allow the case to be served on Saudi Arabia in Riyadh was made on Oct. 11. Assiri said in a statement: "I am fully aware that the authorities will want to target me. However, it is outrageous for them also to target individuals such as the victims of rights abuses and their families in Saudi Arabia simply because these people have been in contact with me."
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UK-Based Dissident Can Sue Saudi Arabia For Alleged Spyware, Court Rules More

UK-Based Dissident Can Sue Saudi Arabia For Alleged Spyware, Court Rules

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  • Cool but what about sueing the company that's actually responsible for the data breach? Saudi Arabia is a heel. They are half a world away and engaging in digital warfare. But the only reason that warfare could actually reach this guys doorstep is because he's being sold hackable devices while being told they're secure.

    The NSO group has been openly touting it's no-click hacks on iOS and Android since 2014. Apple even said in court that they can't secure their devices because of the NSO group but they recen

    • Unless the crime occurred in the UK, British courts have no jurisdiction over a crime against a Saudi citizen in Saudi Arabia.

      British courts also have no jurisdiction over a sale by an Israeli company to the Saudi government.

      Just because you don't like them doesn't give you jurisdiction over them.

      • Re:Cool but what about the company actually... (Score:4, Informative)

        by lostsoulz ( 1631651 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @02:55AM (#64886507)

        It's not quite as simple as that - take a look at the oligarchs who use the judicial system to conduct lawfare in London.

      • Unless the crime occurred in the UK, British courts have no jurisdiction over a crime against a Saudi citizen in Saudi Arabia.

        British courts also have no jurisdiction over a sale by an Israeli company to the Saudi government.

        Just because you don't like them doesn't give you jurisdiction over them.

        The thing about lawyers is that they're always on the lookout for creative ways to make new law, almost always by disguising some new thing as an old thing.

        "You see your honor, my theory of law really isn't novel at all... why, it goes back to the very principles of our judiciary itself!"

        It basically just depends on how sympathetic the judges are to the lawyer's/plantiff's cause.... for all the good it's done, that's the weakness of the Common Law system. Common Law judges have extraordinary powers.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Luthair ( 847766 )
        Maybe you're referencing something different but the summary says the activist lives in Britain, so the Saudi government (and NSO group) were operating within the borders of the UK.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Raghead despots will be raghead despots.
    • Yeah, it's not the burglars' fault if people can't make their houses secure enough, right?

      • Yeah, it's not the burglars' fault if people can't make their houses secure enough, right?

        This is not that far removed from the argument being made in parts of the U.S. these days.

    • Why do you think Arabia is a heel in this case? Pretty much all national security agencies are apt to include target's relatives in their investigations. CIA/FBI too. And they wouldn't even think it's something bad. Arabia's spooks shouldn't be judged by different standards than FBI.
      • Except that you're more likely to be cut into pieces and stuffed into a suitcase by the Saudis.
        • Hardly.
          • Don't be stupid.
            • I wish the same to you so you wouldn't end up in Abu Ghraib, or whatever place they do their kinky stuff in now. Arabs wouldn't be able to repeat that because they'd throw up.
              • You know what didn't happen in Abu Graib? Anybody getting chopped into pieces and stuffed into a suitcase.

                Again, don't be stupid.
                You can stick your false equivalency up your ass.

                The US has waterboarded the shit out of people, and there has been isolated abuse in a military prison.
                These are big problems, particularly for a country that gives a shit about human rights, like the US.

                But you're trying to compare us to Saudi Arabia, where the literally cut motherfuckers heads off in a public square. Don't
                • Only difference is kind of religion people are killed for. In Arabia it's Islam, so they execute heretics. While in US it's almighty dollar so they strangle to death random shoppers suspected to be dealing in fake currency.

                  • Only difference is kind of religion people are killed for.

                    Only if you make up bullshit alternative facts to move your point forward. Let's see what kind of stupid shit you've got.

                    In Arabia it's Islam, so they execute heretics.

                    Heretics. Political dissidents. Women who say they should be able to wear the clothing they choose... But ya.

                    While in US it's almighty dollar so they strangle to death random shoppers suspected to be dealing in fake currency.

                    You're doing it again. You're conflating a systemic practice with random abuses that amount to a statistical rounding error.

                    How fucking stupid are you? I thought I told you not to be stupid.

                    • If it's unwritten practice it's no less systemic. How can you know how widespread those practices in Arabia even? Like from outlets that have all reasons to fabricate and fudge data? No matter whether it's abuse or corruption or in laws as written it doesn't help you if you happen to be target of it. So first and foremost focus on your own country because Arabs can't execute you personally since you're not their subject. But some random money fetishist in same country as you for sure can. Or make you wish y

                    • If it's unwritten practice it's no less systemic.

                      Stop it, dude.
                      You're either stupid, or so fucking intellectually dishonest it makes one's head spin.

                      The US does not execute political dissidents.
                      Those who engaged in abuse at Abu Graib were court martialed, because they broke US law.

                      How can you know how widespread those practices in Arabia even?

                      Huh?
                      They're well documented by human rights organizations...

                      Like from outlets that have all reasons to fabricate and fudge data?

                      You'd wave away anything that challenged your preconceived notions. I mean you're literally right here trying to compare the US to Saudi Arabia.
                      You're not looking for facts. You have your own bullshit reality that

                    • I think it's you who is intellectually dishonest. People who killed Khashoggi were indicted too by Arabia itself. Of course you can say that it's coverup and prince Muhammad did it all. But it's nothing different than blaming US president for Abu Ghraib. And US itself was pretty happy to cooperate with Saudis and their medieval legal system in the past. Until they decided to replace the leader for the lulz. All stories about Arabian "threat" should be viewed through this prism. So my whole point that our id
                    • The murder happened in the Saudi embassy. It was covered up by the Saudi Government.
                      After incontrovertible proof was supplied by the Turks, the Government then "prosecuted those responsible" (though there's no evidence of these trials ever taking place)
                      Khashoggi's children were then banned from leaving Saudi Arabia, and then they forgave (commuted) the death sentences handed out by Saudi law.

                      Give me a fucking break, you moral relativist piece of shit.
                    • Khashoggi was a useful tool of Saudi regime for a long time. Their minister of propaganda almost. And he was happily parroting their conservative ideals. I don't think he was really a dissident. Just someone who got bribed as part of pressure campaign on the government. What Saudi did to him out of anger and revenge but at least I'm pretty sure they considered them a person still. Just a traitor. While Arab people sexually abused in Abu Ghraib weren't considered people by their jailers. And that's the whole
                    • Uncivilized sub-humans?

                      They were imprisoned terrorists. That doesn't justify what happened to them by any means, but it was a fucking war.
                      The person those shell-shocked dumbfucks posed next to dead was suspected of killing 34 people in the bombing of a fucking Red Cross.
                      Khashoggi was a fucking dissident. A guy who talked shit about the royal family.

                      Seriously, go fuck yourself you vile film of pond scum.

                      I've traveled across half of this world. Nobody calls us USians except for stupid fuckers who ha
                    • People who were captured in Abu Ghraib were just random civilians for the most part. And I wouldn't trust any stories of criminal activity US "investigates" there. Because they don't act as actual government there any of their investigative activity is corrupted by conflict of interest. And nobody decent ever sides with USians. I don't believe Khashoggi is an exception. He was chief editor of Saudi propaganda outlet, impossible if he wasn't onboard with them and their ideals. He was just shafted a bit by in

                    • People who were captured in Abu Ghraib were just random civilians for the most part.

                      No, they weren't. Stop lying.

                      Your particular butchery of the English language feels very slavic.
                      Tell me, Ivan. Are you afraid that if you don't say the right thing on here, the plane you're on might accidentally explode, or you might fall out of a window 10 stories up?
                      Your bullshit Russian propaganda reeks, and you're not fooling anyone.

                    • It is you who should stop lying. Abu Ghraib or any related "investigative efforts" were always just roleplay scenarios for abusing local people with the objective of setting example and spreading terror. Don't pretend otherwise. You just making yourself look silly. Like any real investigation would involve access to legal representation and will be governed by local laws or mutually affirmed international treaties. Just how you file an appeal vs a drone strike?
                    • lol.
                      Wrong answer, Vlad.
                      Man, the IRA really has you working for your rubles, today.
                    • Don't forget to put on your clown hat to complete the impression.
                    • Nice try, Vlady.
                      The entire fucking world sees you for what you are. Dumbfuck hicks struggling to survive in a failing state where Truth is Treason.
                      9/11 was an inside job!!!!1111

                      lol. Fucking morons, the lot of you.
                      Hey, how is it you haven't been conscripted yet? I nailed it, didn't I? Shitposting online is your contribution, isn't it?
                    • And who is paying you for parroting this bullshit I wonder? You should ask for a raise.
                    • lol!
                      I love it.

                      Yes, because the US is the country represented in this conversation known for paid troll farms, lol.

                      Pathetic, Sasha. Just pathetic.
                      Speaking of pathetic- how does it feel having North Korean soldiers in your country?
                      Can you tell us how Kim Jong Un is actually a great and benevolent leader, and it's actually just US propaganda that paints him in such an unkind light?
                    • Well evidence is right here. Nobody could actually honestly believe nonsense you're saying, therefore you're getting paid for it. And if you're not then it's a scam. So are you sure you're spending your time efficiently given those circumstances? Maybe find some other person to entertain with your clownage instead of disgruntled foreigners? Like your relatives or friends? You have those I hope? Spending time with them for sure better than to be with people who hate you.
                    • lol- yes Ambassador Zorin, comrade, I *know* there are no missiles in Cuba! wink

    • In the current tech environment, iOS and Android devices are by definition incapable of being secured.

      Amen. Governments love smartphones. The population is basically paying for their own surveillance.

    • But the only reason that warfare could actually reach this guys doorstep is because he's being sold hackable devices while being told they're secure.

      And people die in crashes in cars that they're told are safe. No reasonable consumer is seeing a phone marketed as "secure" and thinking "this means I can never be hacked, ever". If you've got evidence that Apple and Google are deliberately making their OS insecure, let's talk.

      And regardless, what's your proposed remedy here? Kill off Apple and Google and replace them with some mythical company that manufactures an un-hackable smartphone? Ban the smartphone as a platform inherently too complex to secure?

      • Maybe get rid of the banking and payment apps because they have proven time and time again to be completely insecure. Apple and Goldman were just fined $90 Million because the Apple Card turned out to be a fraud machine.(https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/23/business/apple-goldman-sachs-fine-credit-cards.html)

        My proposed solution is that we stop letting fictional entities defraud large swathes of the population and then pay for the right to keep doing it. Apple is a recidivist offender and would be facing lif

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Luthair ( 847766 )

      Apple even said in court that they can't secure their devices because of the NSO group but they recently dropped the lawsuit because discovery was hurting their business more than a lawsuit could help.

      Actually, they said their lawsuit was unlikely to succeed after the Israeli government was seen taking a bunch of documents from the NSO offices which would leave incomplete records for discovery.

  • Completely fine. He absolutely won't find himself chopped up in small pieces never to be seen again.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      Completely fine. He absolutely won't find himself chopped up in small pieces never to be seen again.

      Nonsense.. That stuff does not happen in the UK.

      Here you only chop a body up small enough to move, then you feed it to pigs.

  • An egregious example (Score:3)

    by SpzToid ( 869795 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2024 @04:38AM (#64886619)

    Don't use Whatsapp. Pegasus - made by Israeli company NSO Group and sold only to nation states, took advantage of Whatsapp 0-days. Whatsapp can get you killed [cnn.com].

    • Pegasus isn't limited to Whatsapp. It can extract conversations from any of the online communications platforms you may be using- Signal, Telegram, iMessage, etc.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by SpzToid ( 869795 )

        Pegasus isn't limited to Whatsapp. It can extract conversations from any of the online communications platforms you may be using- Signal, Telegram, iMessage, etc.

        Would you please care to elaborate as to how? My understanding of Jamal Kashoggi's murder is that Whatsapp, a multiplatform app, (iPhone and Andriod), was hacked directly via a 0-day exploit.

        Please don't break my belief Signal is kinda impervious. Please don't do that unless you have good reason to do so and can back yourself up.

        • I don't know anything about how they got to Kashoggi (I know they had his messages somehow), but I do know that Pegasus runs locally on the targeted phone, and can extract messages from any running messaging client it supports (the ones I listed and more). It doesn't pull them off the network- it attacks the local apps which of course are privy to the conversations.

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