Telegram Founder Arrest Part of Cybercrime Inquiry, Say Prosecutors (theguardian.com) 98
Pavel Durov, the Russian-born billionaire co-founder of the Telegram messaging app, was arrested in France in connection with an investigation into criminal activity on the platform and a lack of cooperation with law enforcement, prosecutors announced on Monday. From a report: Durov, who has French citizenship, was detained at Le Bourget airport, just outside Paris, on Saturday evening after arriving from Azerbaijan on his private jet. His surprise arrest has sparked debate over free speech worldwide and led to an outcry in Moscow. The Paris prosecutor Laure Beccuau said the investigation concerned crimes related to illicit transactions, child sexual abuse, fraud and the refusal to communicate information to authorities.
Earlier in the day the French president, Emmanuel Macron, gave the first confirmation that Durov had been arrested as part of a judicial inquiry in relation to Telegram. "In a state governed by the rule of law, freedoms are upheld within a legal framework, both on social media and in real life, to protect citizens and respect their fundamental rights," Macron wrote on X, adding that the arrest was "in no way a political decision." "It is up to the judiciary, in full independence, to enforce the law," he said. A senior official at Ofmin, a French agency set up last year to prevent violence against children, said Durov's arrest was linked to Telegram's failure to properly fight crime on the app, including the spread of child sexual abuse material.
Earlier in the day the French president, Emmanuel Macron, gave the first confirmation that Durov had been arrested as part of a judicial inquiry in relation to Telegram. "In a state governed by the rule of law, freedoms are upheld within a legal framework, both on social media and in real life, to protect citizens and respect their fundamental rights," Macron wrote on X, adding that the arrest was "in no way a political decision." "It is up to the judiciary, in full independence, to enforce the law," he said. A senior official at Ofmin, a French agency set up last year to prevent violence against children, said Durov's arrest was linked to Telegram's failure to properly fight crime on the app, including the spread of child sexual abuse material.
Authoritarianism (Score:5, Interesting)
For everyone saying Telegram had garbage security and people should use Signal, remember Signal is run by Open Whisper Systems and appears to be funded by the CIA:
https://www.kitklarenberg.com/... [kitklarenberg.com]
Like TOR, it is likely secure, but created and opened to the public so the government could hide their own clandestine operations among the traffic of criminals, journalists and political activists:
https://yasha.substack.com/p/s... [substack.com]
The case in France is another example of prosecuting WrongThink, in another nation with no real freedom of speech laws. It won't be long before we see more speech and though taken away from America as well. The leaders of the world want you docile, addicted to entertainment and eating their genetically modified slop.
Re: Authoritarianism (Score:2)
Bold assumption
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I don't think your statement is true. (Score:2, Insightful)
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Actions speak louder than words (Score:1)
If you start jailing people for failing to censor, or wearing the wrong t-shirt, you're an authoritarian.
Can't have it both ways, folks.
You're wrong. That's not authoritarianism. (Score:1)
So I guess the UK ducked a bullet on that one after all - I may not ever want to stand in a court in the UK, but if I do I believe it likely I'll get a fair trial. NOT authoritarian. Neither is France.
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Prosecuting people for "not censoring information" and "not cooperating with law enforcement to identify others who said something" is pretty high up on the list of authoritarian concepts.
In fact, it is the primary hallmark of that.
Information and freedom of speech is the core element of anything that is not authoritarian, because information and freedom of speech are the primary way through which people form their political beliefs and consequently, how they vote.
Anyone who censors and prevents the flow an
The subject is France, not the UK. (Score:1)
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As long as you don't post online what is not approved by the state.
The subject is whatever I say it is, assface. (Score:2)
Still, not a bad place to live, from what I hear.
As long as you have absolutely zero controversial thoughts or feelings. Otherwise, the thought police gonna getcha. Sounds like a reeeel greeeeat place to "live". I wont even be booking air travel stopovers there anymore, but hey, have fun being free from "dangerous thinkers" over there, uhm, I guess.
Nice try. No, it isn't. (Score:2)
Then why are you here, dumbass? (Score:2)
No, you stay in North Korea. (Score:2)
Tell your mama to stay in North Korea. (Score:2)
I totally meant to hurt your feelings. Cool! (Score:2)
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There are worse places to live. And it was a lot better a while ago and people haven't realized how quickly everything went to hell.
Getting stabbed, crushed, bombed, shot as an innocent civilian in public is bad enough in UK, but that's not all. The UK also imprisons people for the slightest attempt at self-defense or merely owning the puniest tools for doing so, and that isn't all, either. The UK now imprisons people for publicly voicing their severe discontent with that situation, being threatened with st
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Try wearing t-shirt that says "kill Trump" at one if his rallies, and let us know what happens.
Almost anything can be described in innocuous terms, but you really need to tell us what the shirt said and what the context was.
Re:I don't think your statement is true. (Score:4, Interesting)
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I've read that article before. They are all either mistakes, went nowhere, or are were even found in the accused's favour. Some of them are civil actions too, which don't lead to jail even if you lose.
I'd have cited the sentences given to climate protestors for merely planning to disrupt traffic on the M25. That actually was a travesty.
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I've read that article before. They are all either mistakes, went nowhere, or are were even found in the accused's favour. Some of them are civil actions too, which don't lead to jail even if you lose.
Liar. Plus you didn't cite a single example or shred of evidence to disprove any of them. I guess the fact that Britain's own newspapers are linked in many places, like this one [standard.co.uk] and confirm the examples. All of them are easy to confirm, but as I mentioned, "progressives" have a hard time with search engines when they have to back up their lies, I've noticed.
I'd have cited the sentences given to climate protestors for merely planning to disrupt traffic on the M25. That actually was a travesty.
Ahhh, so censorship and jailing the opposition is only uncool when they go after left-wingers, eh?
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I'm not going to debunk your long article point by point, I have better things to do. Let's just tackle the first one and then readers can go from there. The link from your own article goes to The Mirror newspaper: https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport... [mirror.co.uk]
Turns out the police weren't interested at all. They looked at it and said it wasn't a criminal matter. It was down to the football club if they wanted to do anything about a fan abusing their staff. Doesn't seem quite so Orwellian when a private business decides
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it's interesting how you instantly turn into the oppressor when it comes to climate change activists.
How so by pointing out that you're a hypocrite and asking if it's only uncool when they go after left-wingers? I didn't say they should be harassed by the government, but I'd be one of the ones out the street kicking the shit out of you before the cops even got there if you blocked the road for me, that's for sure. I wouldn't give a fuck what political "side" you were on or what your dumbass "cause" was.
I noticed you didn't point out any actual errors in the article. You just critiqued the level each si
Have you considered citing an UNBIASED source? (Score:2, Interesting)
These guys look like they've got a lot of axes to grind: (from The Reason Roundtable)
Biden's Out. Harris Is In. Everyone Else Is Screwed.
Biden, Cognitive Decline, and the End of American Empire
Why Libertarians Hate Kamala Harris' Economic Platform
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They seem to disagree with reality. (Score:2)
So, just to be clear - no, you are not entitled to your own facts, even if you are (ostensibly) a Libertarian. Your protestations to the contrary, your citation appears to be less than credible as a news source.
Libertarian - must break your heart that RFK is giving up his run in some states. Poor guy - by his own account, he has brain damage caused by parasitic worms eating part of his brain. Despite this, he's still the Libertarian flag-bearer. Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but watching him speak
They reflect reality. (Score:2)
no, you are not entitled to your own facts
Well, then it should be easy for you to debunk their examples if they are such a bad source. I see that you utterly fail to even try.
he has brain damage
I'm glad RFK is aligning with Trump. I'm not the worlds biggest Trump fan, but I'm going to be thrilled if he's made head of the CIA or gets the Attorney General spot.
Not sure I'd trust him or Libertarians for much else.
I'm not asking you to trust anyone. I was saying if you think that they are such terrible sources, take them on and debunk some lies in the article. Go ahead. We'll wait...
Well, your version of reality, at any rate. (Score:2)
The linked article is an op-ed piece. It's all opinions. I can't refute opinions, I'm sure both you and the article's authors believe them. Citing an editorial magazine article to support your opinion is -literally- citing an opinion to support your opinion.
Please stop trying to substitute opinions for facts. It's offensive.
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Of course you don't want to use ethics or philosophy to justify any "opinion" that's pro-censorship or for the UK thoughtcrime laws. You'd be destroyed repeatedly. So, I can see why you crawfish constantly.
I've never heard of thought crime, save in a novel (Score:2)
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You're citing your opinion to justify your opinion (Score:2)
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What will it matter if he is turned over to Russia?
Russia will gain admin access with a hammer, and then start a purge of anybody they find using the app "against mother russia"
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It's because it isn't supposed to be authoritarian, that any authoritarian move is alarming.
If we are waiting for it to get as bad as North Korea before we start complaining, then maybe that's leaving it a bit late, no?
Meanwhile there's certainly plenty of things which are arguably of concern. Like, who won the French elections?
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"Generally acknowledged to not be authoritarian" - by who? By "the general public"? The "general public" has no option to speak for themselves other than the mass of all social media and the general elections. And the elections have a million other issues that influence votes and thus cannot answer one specific question about what the general population thinks.
So in absence of actual town hall meetings - which don't happen anymore or are swamped with people wanting money for whatever - and public town squar
Re:Authoritarianism (Score:4, Interesting)
Best and most secure communication method is posting your messages to normal forums. Just embedded them part of normal messages. No-one will read long messages all the way, so you can just send the submarines to the coordinates 20 30 40. Two spies had to withdraw due to cover blow up. Send new spies to local library at 12:14. Just remember to add some normal text at the end of the message in case someone skips to the end to see if you had any actual summary there.
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Your scenario is exactly why AI is being pushed so hard right now. There are no direct economic benefits to the current state of AI and yet we see commitments that are as large as the GDP of many countries being spent on it. AI doesn't get bored. It will discover your casual efforts. (to be fair though, a simple word substitution cipher could easily make an AI blind to your shenanigans)
Go easy on the q anon stuff (Score:2)
If you want to see that machine broken down The only way to do it is with more education and a kind of super citizen armed with critical thinking and media literacy skills. That said you are not going to like it when the kids have those skills because you probably got some sacred cows you don't want touche
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Telegram isn't just a messaging app, it has a channel feature that is more like a social media feed.
Make it stop. Make it stop! Please MAKE IT STOP! (Score:4, Funny)
Not just a dupe, a rapid-fire dupe:
One [slashdot.org]
Two [slashdot.org]
Three [slashdot.org]
My first dupe -- accusation (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.tribunal-de-paris.... [justice.fr]
(My translation)
Founder and leader of a instant messaging platform TELEGRAM, Pavel DUROV was detained and placed under custody Saturday 24th of August 2024, at 20:00 hours, in Bourget.
This is the result from a judiciary investigation opened on the 8th July 2024, following a preliminary investigation lead by section J3 (repression of cyber-criminality -- JULACO) of the Paris Prosecution Office.
This judiciary investigation was opened against an unknown person for the following infractions:
* Accessory -- administration of an online platform allowing illicit transaction, performed in an organized gang
* Refusal to communication, upon request of the relevant authorities, information or documents necessary to realise wiretapping permitted by law
* Accessory -- ownership of images of underage pornography
* Accessory -- publication, offer or provisioning, in an organized gang, of images of underage pornography
* Accessory -- Acquisition, transport, ownership, offer or transaction of illicit drugs
* Accessory -- Offer, transaction or provisioning, without legitimate reason, of equipment, instruments or programs or data designed or adapted to affect or permit access to the functioning of an automated data processing system
* Accessory -- scam in an organized gang
* Conspiracy to commit a felony or misdemeanour punished by a minimum of 5 years of jail
* Laundering of felonies or misdemeanours, in an organized gang
* Provisioning of cryptology services with objective of confidentiality without previous declaration
* Provisioning of a cryptology method that does not exclusively permit authentication or integrity control, without previous declaration
* Import of a cryptology method that does not exclusively permit authentication or integrity control, without previous declaration
The Investigative Magistrates in charge of this judiciary investigation have together brought the case before the Center of Digital Criminalities (C3N) and the Anti-Fraud office (ONAF) to continue the investigations.
It is within this framework that Pavel DUROV was heard by the investigators.
The hearing was extended on the 25th August 2024 by an Investigative Magistrate and can last 96 hours (meaning until the 28th August 2024) in the reason of complexity of the procedure applicable to infractions pertaining to organized criminalities, as cited above.
Laure BECCUAU
Public prosecutor
Notes
* "cryptology" is the word used in the law in France, which I left as it is
* "Judicial investigation" is a procedure in Inquisitorial systems. It is an investigation lead by an investigative magistrate, not by police, but that can require the help of a judiciary police.
* the law in France is that companies providing cryptography services, software or importing software must register themselves with the government, though the authorization can't be refused.
* He is accused of accessory, meaning they believe the platform facilitates the said activities, not that he personally owned illicit drugs or underage pornography
* "in organized gang" is a qualification that makes the infractions worse.
* at first look none of that is worth more than 10 years total in prison (10 years is a specific threshold in French criminal law where procedures are not the same).
* Most of it is "accessory", he only risks a small number of years.
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Very useful summary of the charges, but some of the charges are so broad that telecom services & Internet providers could also be found guilty of them even if the banned substances were sold through The Dark Web.
Yet those same telecom services & Internet providers sidestep any criminal charges themselves by working with government to wiretap people upon legal request. Same thing happens in the USA.
So Telegram needed to work with the governments on a few things in order to get out of this debacle, bu
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some of the charges are so broad that telecom services & Internet providers could also be found guilty of them even if the banned substances were sold through The Dark Web.
ISPs take action when requested to ban a website. It's all over slashdot everytime it happens, see "French Court Orders Google, Cloudflare, Cisco To Poison DNS To Stop Piracy" 2024-06-17 https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org] People can find a workaround for the DNS, but that's not the question. It exonerates the ISPs from liability. If Telegram does obey orders to ban a channel, then they take full responsibility if said channel is used to sell illegal stuff.
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does not* obey
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some of the charges are so broad that telecom services & Internet providers could also be found guilty of them even if the banned substances were sold through The Dark Web.
ISPs take action when requested to ban a website. It's all over slashdot everytime it happens, see "French Court Orders Google, Cloudflare, Cisco To Poison DNS To Stop Piracy" 2024-06-17 https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org] People can find a workaround for the DNS, but that's not the question. It exonerates the ISPs from liability. If Telegram does obey orders to ban a channel, then they take full responsibility if said channel is used to sell illegal stuff.
Sounds like you perfectly understood my point. You do the Government's bidding or they shut you down.
Telegram doesn't want to be responsible for it cuz it goes against their Freedom & Privacy ethos, makes them complicit with The Man, and those two positions are mutually exclusive to Freedom-Privacy purists.
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Well, the US is certainly no better. Come to think of it, I can't think of anyplace that is better in this regard.
But I can think of a whole lot of places on Earth that are worse. Places run by men with names like Putin, Xi, Kim . . . and the sycophants that admire them.
Yay, we're 'better' (Score:2)
By some measure...it's hard to discern while sitting in a country that authorizes torture still and has a Guantanamo Bay detention facility still open. Assange, Snowden, et al.
If you can convince yourself of that, great, but I sure can't.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I think we are. (Score:2)
In fact, I'm quite proud to be a US American citizen as well as a veteran of her armed services. I'm very sorry you don't feel the same way about the United States. If you're a citizen, I encourage you to do all you can legally and ethically can to bring about the political change you believe would benefit our nation. If you're not, you are cordially invited to eat shit and die.
You're just jealous because I'm a veteran. (Score:2)
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"her"
Wrong country mate
Re: Backdoors (Score:2)
I don't see how the US would be "no better". Free speech is pretty ironclad in the US. Basically the only remaining country in the world with no national website or DNS blocklists. Just look at the pirate bay alone:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
That list gets bigger when you start looking at websites with "hateful" content like kiwi farms.
Just picking my battles. (Score:2)
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Every American wants that: The question is what do you call "damage"? For the right-wing, it's not "freedom" to live your own life, it's freedom to obstruct government (eg. everything "Hannity" says) and others (eg. anti-abortion/anti-contraception laws). Which leads to the big secret: The GOP defines "free market" to mean "unregulated", not "equal leverage". For the right-wing, "patriot" means protecting the rich, not protecting everyone's rights: Demanding elitism, not equal opportunity.
The shifti
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Now that you've read that -- you did read ALL of it, yes? -- read the actual charges that the French prosecutor filed. It appears to me, and I'm go
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I thought I did. I was wrong.
Here's the publication, you can confirm with your own (lying I'm sure) eyes.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV... [twimg.com]
You should have read that before posting it. (Score:2)
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In the eyes of a totalitarian, I'm sure it does. After all, they don't mind the dragnet surveillance. It should be a norm. Think of Safety and Security! Freedom is so 20th century.
And lock up anyone who objects and throw away the key.
Are you a high school graduate? (Score:2)
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France has been as badly compromised by Russia as England has
Putin has been a veeerrryyy busy boy, and he is naughty as well
I am an American citizen. (Score:2)
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What's that old trope, Trust but Verify
However, there were well demonstrated Russian influence campaigns in the 2017 French elections, with 3 of 4 candidates having pro-Russian views [politico.eu]
And, when I say "influence campaigns", keep in mind that Putin has had his opponents shot in public, poisoned by his agents and killed in prison after being "lawfully" convicted.
On the other hand, I can assume that Putin can seem very gracious to anybody who has something he wants, and politicians have proven themselves to be wi
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3. CEO is criminally complicit for any and all crime that happens on his platform.
He is only complicit if he fails to respond promptly to requests to remove contents. Criminal activities also occur on other platforms, for example call to the murder followed by actual murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] Meta isn't in trouble because they quickly remove these things as soon as reported to them.
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This is another spook/fed red herring from twitter. Fully debunked by the actual publication:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GV... [twimg.com]
They make it clear that this is in relation to "cybercrime investigations". I.e. this is supposedly the primary purpose of investigation.
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I know the accusation text, it's me who translated it into English just above in the comments. I still don't understand your point. If he had removed / hidden the channels where people can talk about purchasing drugs and such things, like others are doing, he would not be complicit/accessory. This is most of the accusation. Without that, there would still be his refusal to allow wiretapping, but it would be easier to defend himself from that because there are other secure messaging applications (Whatsapp),
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Problem is that TG does that as a matter of norm. If law enforcement comes with a valid legal order, they honor it.
The problem is that law enforcement doesn't want to do the investigative work needed. They want dragnet surveillance via backdoor access. That is the foundation of accusation. That it's too hard to find those groups without backend access.
And like I noted in another thread, this comes in immediate wake of two major events:
1. Durov went on Carlson's twitter show and talked about how various gove
Not trolling. Calling out the big lie. (Score:2)
Do I have to go through and itemize the demonstrably false statements?
What is the "fifth republic"?
What textbook would define this as totalitarianism in action?
Just what evidence do you have that the French Government has infiltrated all of the messaging services you've listed? Or any of them?
What part of the charges against Durov allege that he's providing aid or assistance to the Russian military?
You're suggesting that Mister Durov's decision to go to France was motivated by the Kursk offensive. Pl
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How to demonstrate that you're utterly clueless on the subject, and yet you must post as if you are an expert for someone unknowable reason:
>What is the "fifth republic"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Literally, you know absolutely nothing about the nation in question. Something you could find with a single google search if you actually wanted information, rather than plant doubts about issued discussed being some kind of ignorance.
Which three letter agency are you with? Or are you so stupid as to do t
Thank you. I didn't know about the "Fifth Republi (Score:2)
But, ah . . . the rest of my questions are still out there. Incidentally, I'm flattered to think you believe I could be an employee of any US intelligence agency. I must regrettably disabuse you of the notion. I'm not qualified, it's not like I'm a loser or anything but I'm fairly sure I couldn't meet their standards for membership. And I'm not stupid enough to work without getting paid. Am I to take it that you are being paid to post here?
Let's grab everyone involved in computing.. (Score:1, Troll)
..because it can all be used for criminal activity.
What about cutlery makers? you can kill someone with a fork.
What a RIDICULOUS thing France has done.
Yeah, enforcing their laws like that. (Score:2)
The Russians are worried (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.newsweek.com/russi... [newsweek.com]
Russian military bloggers are panicking after Pavel Durov, billionaire founder and CEO of the Telegram messaging app, was arrested at a Paris airport on Saturday evening.
As news broke that Russian-born Durov was detained after his private jet landed at Le Bourget airport, pro-war military analysts and bloggers took to the platform to lament the future of the conflict in Ukraine, highlighting that Telegram is a critical means of communication within the Russian army.
Responding to the news, Russian journalist Alexander Sladkov said that Russia's military conducts half of its communications via the messaging app, and said an alternative must be created "urgently."
"Pavel Durov was arrested. This attack on the owner of [Telegram], on which half of the communications in the [war] are held, was expected. Now we urgently need to create a Russian military messenger," he wrote.
"Well, was it impossible to think about this earlier?! Why did the Wagner Group have such a messenger, but the armed forces of our great Russia do not!?!?" Sladkov said, referring to the Russian paramilitary outfit which was led by the late Yevgeny Prigozhin. "And there is no one to punish. Or maybe we shouldn't look for the guilty? Russia's punishment is carelessness. And this is a nightmare."
Is Zuckerburg next? (Score:1)
Facebook and Instagram are pedophile havens.
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Targeted advertising? Maybe we should check your browser history.
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No, Facebook and Zuck are owned by the spooks. That only leaves Musk and Xitter.
Could you show me how to fold a tinfoil hat? (Score:2)