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Crime United States

What Happens If You Shoot Down a Delivery Drone? (techcrunch.com) 152

An anonymous reader quotes a report from TechCrunch: As deep-pocketed companies like Amazon, Google and Walmart invest in and experiment with drone delivery, a phenomenon reflective of this modern era has emerged. Drones, carrying snacks and other sundries, are being shot out of the sky. Incidents are still rare. However, a recent arrest in Florida, in which a man allegedly shot down a Walmart drone, raises questions of what the legal ramifications are and whether those consequences could escalate if these events become more common. [...] While consumer drones have been proliferating for well over a decade, the question of legal ramifications hasn't been wholly clear. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) gave us a partial answer following a 2016 drone shooting in Arkansas. At the time, the FAA pointed interested parties to 18 U.S.C. 32. The law, titled "Aircraft Sabotage," is focused on the wanton destruction of "any aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States or any civil aircraft used, operated or employed in interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce."

At first glance, the law appears primarily focused on manned aircraft, including a provision that "makes it a Federal offense to commit an act of violence against any person on the aircraft, not simply crew members, if the act is likely to endanger the safety of the aircraft." In responding to the Arkansas drone shooting, however, the FAA asserts that such protections can be interpreted to also include UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles). The language does, indeed, appear broad enough to cover drones. That means, in turn, that the penalties are potentially as stiff. The subject was revived after a 2020 incident in Minnesota. In that case, the suspect was hit with felony charges relating to criminal damage and discharging a weapon within city limits. Those would likely also be the charges in most scenarios involving property, rather than bodily damage, drone or not. Even with these examples, there is not a rigid rule that predicts if or when prosecutors might also introduce a federal charge like 18 U.S.C. 32.

As the legal blog Above the Law notes, in most cases, the federal government has deferred to state law for enforcement. Meanwhile, in most cases where 18 U.S.C. 32 has been applied, if a human crew/passengers are involved, there could be other potential charges like murder. It certainly can be argued that shooting a large piece of hardware out of the sky in a heavily populated area invites its own potential for bodily harm, though it may not be prosecuted in the same manner. As drone delivery increases in the U.S., however, we may soon have an answer to the role federal legislation like 18 U.S.C. 32 will play in UAV shootings. Adding that into the picture brings penalties, including fines and up to 20 years in prison, potentially compounding those consequences. What is clear, though, is that the consequences can be severe, whether it is invoked.

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What Happens If You Shoot Down a Delivery Drone?

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  • 400ft (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @08:06AM (#64612165)

    Unless things have changed, under 400 feet is my private property. You absolutely can not fire off a weapon here but maybe trespassing?

    • Re:400ft (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @08:15AM (#64612189)

      From the legal text:

      >Amendments to 18 U.S.C. 32 enacted in 1984 expand United States jurisdiction over aircraft sabotage to include destruction of any aircraft in the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States or any civil aircraft used, operated or employed in interstate, overseas, or foreign air commerce.

      Essentially this falls under sovereign privilege. Your ownership rights are granted by the sovereign to you (yes, I'm aware of "natural rights" argument, in which case you can change it to "recognized" while having the exact same outcome). These have limitations as expressed by the sovereign in the legal code in case of modern liberal constitutional republics such as US. This appears to be one of them.

      • Re: 400ft (Score:4, Insightful)

        by dpille ( 547949 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @08:21AM (#64612201)
        Completely misses the point. Your ownership rights haven't changed at all, but you've been limited to what you can do about an invasion of your property. Much like the common law rule about how you can't use a aping-trapped gun on your door.
        • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          It's not an invasion of your property. They're not landing on it. It's innocent passage, a tradition that predates much of private property as a concept as it was crucial in facilitating trade routes.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          There are other legal issues too, such as what happens if the drone you shot then crashes into someone else's property, perhaps injuring them. Even if you had the right to shoot down drones over your home, it would be an extremely unwise thing to do.

        • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          Completely misses the point. Your ownership rights haven't changed at all, but you've been limited to what you can do about an invasion of your property. Much like the common law rule about how you can't use a aping-trapped gun on your door.

          It basically amounts to damages.

          For example, let's say I trespass onto your property - I was walking on the sidewalk, stumbled and fell onto your clearly marked "NO TRESPASSING" grass. Could you sue me for trespassing? Yes (it is a civil offence in most places). What wou

          • by cusco ( 717999 )

            Depending on where the spent round from a miss lands they can be on the hook for murder or manslaughter.

      • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

        that was a very good summation. In my opinion they wont need new laws. Just use these to prosecute. TBH the sort of person using drones for skeet shooting is not the sort of person who can afford to mount an affirmative defense. Firing weapons into the air is completely reckless behavior and the unintended consequences are often unknown until they kill some girl in her back yard during a cookout. Physics tells us that what goes up must come down, and often at the same speed it left the ground in the first p

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Shooting in the air depends on a weapon. Bullet firing rifled weapon? Dangerous. This stupidity kill several people yearly in *stan belt in Central Asia, where firing rifles in the air as a part of celebrations is a norm. And those bullets have a nasty habit of coming down though the shoulder and lodging itself in the lung. And with medical care quality of those regions, that's going to be lethal in many if not most cases.

          On the other hand bird shot out of the shotgun is specifically designed to be harmless

          • a bullet will lose lethality unless fired at less than 45 degree angle. firing near vertical will weaken the force considerably. this has been covered. a bullet fired at 45 degrees is not a bullet fired in the air for celebration.
            • by cusco ( 717999 )

              Uh, no. People are killed every year here in the US by spent rounds. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

            • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

              Correction: will lose a significant percentage of lethality.

              This is why I specifically note above that hits to the skull aren't a significant cause of injury with such bullets. Only hits into the shoulder where there's a gab in protective bone coverage that remain highly lethal.

              You can take your hand right now and poke a finger at your shoulder blades. You'll very quickly discoverer the penetration point where bullet that is coming only under effect of gravity minus air resistance does in fact tend to punch

          • by cusco ( 717999 )

            They're using bird shot to take down hobbyist-quality drones, a delivery drone which can carry multiple kilos of cargo reliably enough to be approved by the FAA is going to be considerably more difficult. Having spent my youth hunting rabbits with shotguns I really doubt whether a consumer shotgun would stop them from more than maybe 50 yards at most.

        • by Mal-2 ( 675116 )

          Skeet shooters would at least use a shotgun, which means a lot less to worry about when the pellets come back down. They're still a mess, but at least they've mostly slowed down. It's Leeroy Jenkins whipping out an AR-15 that I'd be more concerned with.

          • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

            Id be more worried about a .308 round. One reason why M855 is preferred over M193 rounds is because they get deflected easy with blades of grass and wind. The M855 is a heavier 62gr round and doesn't get mitigated by light obstructions. Leeroy Jenkins (great video btw) would likely just have the cheap steel case 55gr for plinking. But for sure, anything within 200yd nearby is at risk assuming it doesnt land sideways due to their 55gr destabilized tumble. Ammo has come a long way since vietnam so not nearly

            • by cusco ( 717999 )

              The instructor in my hunter's safety course (required to get a small game license in Michigan at 14 years old) used to bring in a section of fence post with him. One of his neighbors was shooting at crows flying overhead while he was working in the yard, a spent round hit that post about two feet from him and went into the wood about an inch. Since it was most of half a century ago I don't remember for sure what kind of round it was, but probably a .22 long. If it will pierce an inch of wood it would mos

      • Re:400ft (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Rei ( 128717 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:26AM (#64612403) Homepage

        Yeah. I've listened to a lot from a drone law expert, who is constantly frustrated from people who think they have a right to shoot down, jam, or otherwise interfere with drones over their property. Not only do you not, but you'll bring a whole host of legal pain down on yourself if you try.

        On the other hand, they pointed out that mooning drones is A-okay ;)

        Do realize that when you see a drone over your property that while most people's assumption is "someone spying on you", it's probably rather a work drone doing something boring like surveying and couldn't give a rat's arse about about you. Drones do a lot of work these days**. Just let them do their job in peace.

          ** Utilities use them to find damage in power lands. Surveyors create detailed maps for urban planners. Businesses, individuals, and governments use them for property inspection to find places that need repair. Realtors use them to take shots of the houses they're selling. Search and rescue uses them to search for missing persons, esp. lost kids. Building inspectors use them to monitor new construction. Environmental agencies use them to monitor pollution. In rural areas, farmers and ag agencies use them to monitor crop health (also sometimes targeted delivery of pesticides, etc, though those are very large drones). Governments use them to do topographic surveys. On and on and on. You being in their shot just means you're in the way.

        • This implies it's perfectly fine for a neighbor or ne'er-do-well to park a drone over my property. It's not like the drone is even marked to identify itself. I think there's more to this than "don't be paranoid".
          • by kqs ( 1038910 )

            Nope, nobody but you is arguing that. Also, I assume delivery drones will be marked, and other commercial drones will be notable by the person on your neighbor's lawn holding a controller.

            However, you do seem to be arguing that the proper response to the possibility of someone looking at your windows (with no threat for your life) from 50+ feet away is to discharge a firearm. Is that your argument?

        • by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          The strangest part is that people don't seem to realise that if you want to shoot something with a drone, being directly above is actually not a good filming angle to get good footage for most things.

          If it's hovering over you, it's probably filming something quite a bit away from you.

          • by kqs ( 1038910 )

            I personally consider there to be a strong negative correlation between "decision to discharge a firearm in my neighborhood at something which is not a threat to life" and "cognitive ability". But I guess that "passing a firearm safety test" is no longer a constitutional thing.

      • It says "aircraft", not "toy". It's generally understood for that to mean planes, not kites and models.
    • Indeed, think of it as a piñata ;)

    • Unless things have changed, under 400 feet is my private property. You absolutely can not fire off a weapon here but maybe trespassing?

      So you can't shoot it, but I wonder what the law would say about tossing a net over a drone trespassing on your property.

      • So you can't shoot it, but I wonder what the law would say about tossing a net over a drone trespassing on your property.

        As long as you return it and didn't damage it you should be good to go. You don't have an arbitrary unilateral right to damage / claim other people's property just because it happens to be on your property that I know of.

      • by Holi ( 250190 )

        You mean what happens when you confiscate a drone and the package it was delivering? Theft charges for one.

    • But from aviation law perspective, you are not allowed to drop anything else than sand or water (and kerosene in an emergency) from the air and the drone is definitely flying (above 35 ft). Even if it is above your property, it could have enough speed to hit your neighbours.
      • by kqs ( 1038910 )

        I mean, areas with delivery drone tests have special legal exceptions for this, but why look for facts?

  • Celebratory Gunfire (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Whateverthisis ( 7004192 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @08:34AM (#64612233)
    Most states have laws against Celebratory Gunfire [wikipedia.org] that ranges from a misdemeanor to a felony to fire a gun into the air. You're running a serious risk by firing into the air, especially if you miss as the bullets may come down and hit someone. It's not clear legally where the line is drawn yet in terms of destruction of property vs. invasion of privacy or trespassing on private property, but for damned sure if you miss and that bullet comes down on your neighbor or goes through a neighbor's window you should expect to be arrested.

    Stick to high pressure water hoses or baseball bats or some such. Guns are very risky.

    • Celebratory gunfire would probably be ok if it was fired into a engineered backstop. That mitigates the stray bullets, immediate damage they can cause with hitting something and the longer lasting effects of the lead leaching out.
    • by Patrick May ( 305709 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:19AM (#64612373)
      Send up your own drone and do some dogfighting!
      • You just created the ideal drone business!
      • Anti-drone drones are something the cops here were looking into, but you need a larger drone to hook and carry a target drone. You also need to be able to tangle its props and hold it firmly to prevent it from falling uncontrolled.

        It turns out it's very difficult to do safely and reliably.

        However, given that most (legal) drones are supposed to have some kind of safe decent capability what you really need to do is jam them and wait for them to land on their own. That jamming, however, is almost certainly i

        • re: signal jamming (Score:4, Interesting)

          by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @12:30PM (#64613131) Journal

          DJI started offering law enforcement hardware that allows them to seize control of any of their drones and force them to land where they want them to land. I remember them holding training courses for them to demo the technology at least 4-5 years ago, when I lived in the DC metro area.

          I'm sure there's some nonsense about it being "legal for THEM to send out that type of jamming signal, but not for everyone else to do it".

          But really, if it's a legal transmission frequency already for the public to fly and control one? It seems like it should be fair game for someone to try to take control of a drone using the same frequency, if it's trespassing in their airspace over their property. The "catch" might be rules about power output levels legally allowed, and a requirement you broadcast with more signal strength than the original person flying it is using? But just by being in closer proximity and having a means to focus the radio waves right at the drone, you might be able to achieve it with the same power transmission output.

          • The company that makes this technology is a pretty cool company, White Fox Security [whitefoxdefense.com]. It's not just law enforcement, I know they are getting contracts from major sports groups like the NFL to discourage drone operators from flying over a game and recording the game too. Going around airports as well.
        • Apparently, raptors absolutely hate drones & attack them most effectively. Just get yourself a pet bald eagle. Can't get more 'Murican than that.
    • by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      or high tech anti-drone stuff like gps jamming or anti-drone collision tech. If a walmart drone is delivering, its likely not a rural area. Most have ordinances as a catch-all for discharging a firearm within city limits. Im not sure trespassing will be enough of an argument. Radio waves travel much closer to the ground of your property than 400ft. There are already consequences for blocking or jamming licensed radio signals which are all tied back to the imminent domain clause in the constitution. Thats wh

    • Most states have laws against Celebratory Gunfire [wikipedia.org] that ranges from a misdemeanor to a felony to fire a gun into the air.

      Except for shotguns, which fire shells that are designed for shooting birds out of the air. Birdshot disperses and loses energy very rapidly, making it non-lethal beyond about 50 yards and not dangerous beyond 200-300 yards.

    • Shotguns are not dangerous to fire up into the air. Anyone who's ever gone squirrel hunting has heard the shot sprinkling back down through the trees, or even back down on your head.

      Shotguns don't carry far; some shotgun clubs are even arranged in a horseshoe shape, so you end up shooting toward other shooters from a couple hundred meters away (Elm Fork shooting club in TX; google map it if you don't believe).
      • You know what does carry far? Sound. And obnoxious neighbors need the flimsiest excuses.

        My mother got a visit from the cops because an obnoxious neighbor called in that she was shooting a pellet gun at some geese to drive them off. Not nearly enough power to even penetrate the birds' skin, and not even that loud, and yet the cops showed up. And this is in a gun-loving red state too.

        Regardless of physics of shotgun pellets like you talk about, I have a strong feeling that we all have neighbors who

        • by kqs ( 1038910 )

          To be fair, if someone is regularly discharging a firearm within 100 feet of my property (or producing an equivalent noise), there is an obnoxious neighbor involved but possibly not the one you think.

    • Yeah but this is 'Murica. Freedom!

      N' guns, Jesus, n' babies n' stuff...
  • If a drone is trespassing because it's hovering too low above your home, shooting at it means the bullet may be trespassing another neighbor's home.

    • by kqs ( 1038910 )

      It also means firing a gun in a residential area when your life is not in danger, which is usually more serious than trespassing...

  • In Minnesota (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @09:06AM (#64612313) Homepage Journal

    In Minnesota, a police officer who shot and killed a black man because he thought he smelled marijuana was deemed not guilty of murder because he "reasonably feared for his life." In some states, a shooting is considered justified to prevent a felony from being committed.

    Given that drones are being used to deliver drugs into prisons, it is reasonable for a property owner to believe that a drone flying over his property is committing a felony. Why else would a drone fly over someone else's property (as opposed to the road) on its way to its destination unless it was doing something nefarious? In a state where it is reasonable to believe that your life is at risk when you smell marijuana, it seems reasonable that a hovering drone can be interpreted as threat.

    And the fact that I have ordered something from Amazon does not give the delivery driver the right to walk over my neighbor's lawn, or park in his driveway, even if it is the shortest path.

    • Committing a felony is not the same as considering self defense. Especially if the drone doesn't look like a black man.

      Why else would a drone fly over someone else's property (as opposed to the road) on its way to its destination unless it was doing something nefarious?

      Without the racism card to play this would definitely fall into the category of too fucking stupid to believe.

    • Most of the amazon drivers in my area don't seem to let petty little laws get in the way of delivering as quickly as possible. I suspect the law would not look kindly on even just detaining an amazon driver for breaking a traffic law.

      • by Mal-2 ( 675116 )

        Disagree. I have watched (with considerable schadenfreude) as a FedEx driver was detained specifically so that they wouldn't be able to jump in their van and go -- because it was already in the process of being towed away.

    • Given that drones are being used to deliver drugs into prisons, it is reasonable for a property owner to believe that a drone flying over his property is committing a felony. Why else would a drone fly over someone else's property (as opposed to the road) on its way to its destination unless it was doing something nefarious? In a state where it is reasonable to believe that your life is at risk when you smell marijuana, it seems reasonable that a hovering drone can be interpreted as threat.

      Lot to unpack in that paragraph. Like, for instance, why would you be online if you aren't pirating movies, music, and books? It's reasonable to assume, right? As for why an airborne vehicle may be passing over your property? Airborne vehicles take straight lines when possible. It's one of their biggest advantages over ground travel. You don't have to follow roads. Why must we assume nefarious action for everything we see? We've sure come a long way from innocent until proven guilty. Now it seems more like,

    • Re:In Minnesota (Score:4, Interesting)

      by bussdriver ( 620565 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @10:35AM (#64612647)

      1) Americans place property above human life; they just don't openly admit it. Theft or even just trespassing may legally be small crimes they carry the death penalty under loopholes in the legal system and their morality. Burn a car, break a window, that is considered terrorism which then involves severe punishment... and mindless vindictive even petty punishment is what passes as justice.

      2) Self defense is one of the greatest evils. USA exploits it heavily and so do it's citizens and their police. try actually thinking this over rationally; now extend that thought (should you achieve it) to who decides the exceptions and are they reliable?

      They (Americans) simply know not what they do. Stop letting us off the hook for our willful ignorance.

    • by njvack ( 646524 )

      And the fact that I have ordered something from Amazon does not give the delivery driver the right to walk over my neighbor's lawn, or park in his driveway, even if it is the shortest path.

      The fact that I want to get to Denver doesn't give an airline pilot the right to walk over my neighbor's lawn, or park in his driveway, even if it is the shortest path.

      And yet, if you launch ONE Sidewinder at a passenger jet, folks get all bent out of shape

  • If it was flying low and super noisy, you can claim temporary insanity and plead it down to droneslaughter.

  • I hope that the more they tighten their fist to protect large pseudo monopolies "right" to fill the sky with drones, the more drones will be shot down
  • I figure a drone in your airspace has no right to exist... But you have no right to bring it down if that is any risk to anyone's person or property.

    And you're definitely going to want to check what counts as 'your airspace'. Here in Canada the rule is 30m / 100ft (vertical, horizontal, or any combination) from persons or property not directly involved in the operation of the device.

    I don't want to have those stupid things buzzing over my property, but it does not appear to be something our governments ar

  • In many Pacific Islands there is a belief in a "cargo cult" where valuable stuff drops from the sky.
    Looks like we have a version of that starting up here. (In Florida first, of course)

  • âAre drone jammers effective? Yes, you can jam a drone signal. This is often done using a drone jammer, which is a device designed to interfere with the frequencies drones use to operate. When a drone's signals are jammed, it can lose its ability to communicate with its controller, potentially causing it to lose control or even crash.â(TM)
  • Almost nowhere in Silicon Valley can a person fly a drone. Then there's no reason for Deliveries to be allowed to. FAA's Even the Check before you fly ap was pulled. Generally, there's no drone or ultralight flying almost anywhere in the SF Bay area. All the airspace was sold to companies. Sorry. Check for yourself.
  • Everything that happens in the sky is perfectly legal. This is the essence of Sky Crime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • If you shoot a drone, it drops loot.

  • by AmazingRuss ( 555076 ) on Tuesday July 09, 2024 @11:01AM (#64612749)
    ... should be illegal, for starters.
    • Steel shot is required for waterfowl hunting everywhere in the US and in several other areas where I live.

  • th US legal system recognises "Cuiud est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos." (whoever owns the soil, it is theirs up to the Heaven and down to Hell) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] so techniccly they are violating the property rights of the home owner and they do have the leagal right to go to law enfocement andTresspass the drone's operator. Violation of a tresspass order would incure legal pentalties aginst walmart and amazon.
    • by kqs ( 1038910 )

      In related news, I think you have proven that airlines are illegal. Or maybe you've proven that you have no idea what you are talking about, not sure which.

  • If I were running a drone fleet, I'd be a lot less worried about people shooting them down than people capturing them and parting them out. These have to fairly sizable drones to carry significant cargo, so they must be worth a few hundred bucks a pop. Once the tweekers figure out they can get money for them, the drone idea will fade away pretty quickly.
    • by Asgard ( 60200 )

      More like a few K to 10K's each -- you are in the low K's just for an upper end consumer drone, and those can't handle the range or cargo capacity as the delivery drones.

    • by kqs ( 1038910 )

      That parts aren't that expensive, and you know exactly where and when the drone went down and probably have images of the people's faces. You could do it for a few drones, but that won't be worth is problems when you are arrested.

  • In responding to the Arkansas drone shooting, however, the FAA asserts that such protections can be interpreted to also include UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles).

    Per SCOTUS, this will need to be decided by judges, not a governmental agency.

  • There will always be people willing to shoot at anything that moves due to "property rights" and those who will harass people endlessly out of spite or just so they increase their followers on platforms like youtube claiming its their right to do so. What will happen is a court will find out what parties are involved, what type of jurisdiction, and what the intentions of the drone operators were along with the shooter. In a residential setting, property owners have no legal justification for discharging a w

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