UK Passport Images Database Could Be Used To Catch Shoplifters (theguardian.com) 67
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Britain's passport database could be used to catch shoplifters, burglars and other criminals under urgent plans to curb crime, the policing minister has said. Chris Philp said he planned to integrate data from the police national database (PND), the Passport Office and other national databases to help police find a match with the "click of one button." But civil liberty campaigners have warned the plans would be an "Orwellian nightmare" that amount to a "gross violation of British privacy principles".
Foreign nationals who are not on the passport database could also be found via the immigration and asylum biometrics system, which will be part of an amalgamated system to help catch thieves. The measures have been deemed controversial by campaigners as the technology could get a match even if images are blurred or partially obscured. Speaking at a fringe event of the Conservative party conference hosted by the Policy Exchange thinktank, Philp said: "I'm going to be asking police forces to search all of those databases -- the police national database, which has custody images, but also other databases like the passport database -- not just for shoplifting but for crime generally to get those matches, because the technology is now so good that you can get a blurred image and get a match for it.
"Operationally, I'm asking them to do it now. In the medium term, by which I mean the next two years, we're going to try and create a new data platform so you can press one button [and it] lets you search it all in one go. Until the new platform is created, he said police forces should search each database separately. [...] Philp said he has already ordered police forces that have access to the passport database to start searching it alongside the police national database, which stores custody images. Officers will be able to compare those facial images against CCTV, dashcam and doorbell technology to help find a match for criminals as prosecution rates are at record lows. He later added: "I would also just remind everyone that the wider public, including shop staff and security guards, do have the power of citizen's arrest and where it's safe to do so I would encourage that to be used. Because if you do just let people walk in and take stuff and walk out without proper challenge, including potentially a physical challenge, then it will just escalate."
Foreign nationals who are not on the passport database could also be found via the immigration and asylum biometrics system, which will be part of an amalgamated system to help catch thieves. The measures have been deemed controversial by campaigners as the technology could get a match even if images are blurred or partially obscured. Speaking at a fringe event of the Conservative party conference hosted by the Policy Exchange thinktank, Philp said: "I'm going to be asking police forces to search all of those databases -- the police national database, which has custody images, but also other databases like the passport database -- not just for shoplifting but for crime generally to get those matches, because the technology is now so good that you can get a blurred image and get a match for it.
"Operationally, I'm asking them to do it now. In the medium term, by which I mean the next two years, we're going to try and create a new data platform so you can press one button [and it] lets you search it all in one go. Until the new platform is created, he said police forces should search each database separately. [...] Philp said he has already ordered police forces that have access to the passport database to start searching it alongside the police national database, which stores custody images. Officers will be able to compare those facial images against CCTV, dashcam and doorbell technology to help find a match for criminals as prosecution rates are at record lows. He later added: "I would also just remind everyone that the wider public, including shop staff and security guards, do have the power of citizen's arrest and where it's safe to do so I would encourage that to be used. Because if you do just let people walk in and take stuff and walk out without proper challenge, including potentially a physical challenge, then it will just escalate."
Hmmm. (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder what percentage of shoplifters travel internationally.
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More than you think. They are not holiday makers, but illegal immigrants and professional gangs.
Organised crime groups even fly people in from eastern Europe for crime "holidays". It is a serious problem, and far wider than shoplifting.
"The Eastern European gang who spent 'fraud holiday' in Britain then flew home 'millionaires': Pair raided ATMs for 11,000 bank details over fortnight"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne... [dailymail.co.uk]
Re:Hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Illegal immigrants with a UK passport?
Ah! You must be American. I assumed GP was referring to people without British passports, and so foreign nationals in the UK. I see how an American reading that would think of locals who have never owned a passport. This would be a rare thing in Europe. Perhaps less so for teens and young adults on the council estates, but even the underprivileged often go across the channel for a holiday.
And yes, in the UK illegal immigrants, sorry, asylum seekers, can apply for a 'Convention Travel Document', which i
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Ah! You must be American. I assumed GP was referring to people without British passports, and so foreign nationals in the UK.
This is what you wrote:
So obviously they're either British ex-pats (who would necessarily need a UK passport) or they're foreign nationals (who would need an EU passport to enter the UK). Good luck flying into the UK without anyone noticing.
Also, if it's so widespread why do even the far-right media outlets never mention it? They love a bit of bashing the forrins.
I see how an American reading that would think of locals who have never owned a passport. This would be a rare thing in Europe.
I'm no
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> people travelling to the UK through irregular means and claiming asylum are not criminals!
Applying for asylum is not a criminal act
However arriving at the UK before asylum has been granted without a passport and avoiding border checks (such as on a rubber boat) is a criminal act.
The only exception to this is if they were traveling direct from a country where persecution was inacted, but in every case travel through a safe country is always the case (such as France), otherwise it would be a very long bo
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Illegal immigrants with a UK passport?
Ah! You must be American. I assumed GP was referring to people without British passports, and so foreign nationals in the UK. I see how an American reading that would think of locals who have never owned a passport. This would be a rare thing in Europe. Perhaps less so for teens and young adults on the council estates, but even the underprivileged often go across the channel for a holiday.
And yes, in the UK illegal immigrants, sorry, asylum seekers, can apply for a 'Convention Travel Document', which is basically the same thing as a passport.
The oft trotted out and incorrect theme is that the "illegal immigrants" are completely unknown to the government and allowed to run roughshod. This is, of course the fevered fantasy dream of a Daily Mail reader who's drunk too much Bovril.
Seeking asylum is not illegal.
However the notion here is that most of the criminals are actually British (which would scan) and that the biometric passport database could be used to identify them. This is another fevered fantasy, just not limited to the daily mail c
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This is another fevered fantasy,
Try saying "misconception". Such flowery dramatic intensity detracts from your valid points, and makes you sound like a ranting looney. Please show some respect for others, even if they are wrong.
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This is another fevered fantasy,
Try saying "misconception". Such flowery dramatic intensity detracts from your valid points, and makes you sound like a ranting looney. Please show some respect for others, even if they are wrong.
No, "fevered fantasy" is far too nice as it is.
People get respect when they earn respect. If I gave it away to anyone my respect has no value and if nothing else, I respect myself too much to allow that to happen.
Further more, someone who trades in such obvious lies as the daily mail or would seek to spread those same lies has explicitly demonstrated they are not worth respect.
If anyone sounds like the "ranting looney" here, it is you as you don't seem to understand the basics of "respect". You're
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People get respect when they earn respect. If I gave it away to anyone my respect has no value
An interesting idea. Do you really mean that? A stranger gets no respect. Only people you know, if you approve of them? If they make the world better in your eyes, or comply with your rules, or agree with your politics?
Or do you believe there is some absolute, universal set of rules that we can agree upon, as to who deserves respect? I'd love to hear the details.
How does one earn your respect, and can this be extended to others? If I follow your model, I only need to respect people who meet my values,
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Illegal immigrant is a huge category of people.
An American often gets the impression they are people who sneak into the country without papers because that's the impression the media portrays of people crossing the Mexican (usualy) border illegally.
But far larger are the number of illegal immigrants that are well known - for example, someone who overstays their welcome. They came into the country legally and overstayed their visa. So they do have documents, but for some reason or other, they simply never le
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I very much doubt that this would do much to catch shoplifters because shoplifting is a crime of poverty, the vast majority of shoplifters are Brits who've never had a passport, the police already have mugshots of most of them from previous offences, & the local police can probably tell you who most of them are by name.
The thing is, in some regions in the UK, the police have all but declared that th
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Citing the Daily Mail, seriously?! It's the nation's racist, misogynist, purse-lipped mother-in-law.
Haha, fair point. Was just the first link that wasn't pay-walled. But lets not get into attacking the messenger.
I wonder how long it'll be before they'll put more spin on it to broaden the use of the database to prosecute protesters, activists, human rights lawyers, journalists, etc.?
You have there a great example of the Slippery slope fallacy. [wikipedia.org] Fair as speculation, but should never be used as an argument.
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It's pointless prosecuting them. They aren't going to choose starvation or not feeding their children over a criminal record.
They already have databases for protestors and human rights lawyers. They get stopped when travelling to events, as their vehicles are identified by the numerous ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras that the police operate.
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They already have databases for protestors and human rights lawyers. They get stopped when travelling to events, as their vehicles are identified by the numerous ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras that the police operate.
In the UK, it's trivially easy to travel without your own car, e.g. public transport, hire a car, borrow someone's, get a lift, or hitchhike. It's also fairly easy to wear a hat & glasses. The police would have to make quite the effort & invest a lot in overtime hours to screen everyone attending events. You can get an idea from seeing how much it costs to police football matches, where they already use all kinds of screening tactics, including facial recognition.
This looks like they're going aft
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The thing is, in some regions in the UK, the police have all but declared that they're not interested in prosecuting people for shoplifting
They've also all but declared they want access to as much data on everyone all the time as they can get. Oh, and did we say shoplifting? Sorry, we meant drug-dealing pedophile kidnapper terrorists. What do you mean you don't want us to have all your data? Are you some kind of pedophile-sympathiser?
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As Napoleon said: "Britain is a nation of shoplifters."
another knee jerk soundbite (Score:2)
Re:another knee jerk soundbite (Score:5, Informative)
This semi-fascist Govt has already planned to abolish GDPR, if the crime exception doesn't apply:
https://ico.org.uk/for-organis... [ico.org.uk]
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Isn't the point of a passport to pass identity along with the person? This is so the people at the port know who's passing through, and sure they haven't committed a crime that would deny them exit or entry.
One of the classic court moves is to pull a passport of those who are expected to be a risk of leaving the jurisdiction of the court.
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Yeah that's about right. The Blair Govt tried to build it into a mass surveillance system along with ID cards and the same police database. Presumably they'd had added social security, ANPR etc later I think it was MI5 pushing for it then. Might still be MI5 pushing for it and backdoors into WhatsApp now.
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This semi-fascist Govt has already planned to abolish GDPR, if the crime exception doesn't apply:
https://ico.org.uk/for-organis... [ico.org.uk]
What do you mean by "semi"?
They are completely fascist... our only saving grace is that they are also utterly incompetent.
So I'm no political genius (Score:2, Troll)
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But since when is the UK part of the EU.
That's irrelevant. GDPR was signed into UK law while we were EU members and still is part of UK law.
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This is correct and rather self evident; many countries that have separated from former ruling empires retained the laws; it's when a place is conquered violently and new rulers want to enforce their will that laws are removed. Contrast how Brehon law vanished in Ireland under English rule with how English commons law was retained in the Irish free state, then the Republic of Ireland, and in the RoI as an EEC/EU member.
Look rules already exist... (Score:2)
With the exception of twins, all people in a community try to look different. This is enforced by both schools and police, and even famous people databases.
So, what's wrong with using AI to say "there's three people who look like the suspect, but only one in the area that day..."?
Re:Look rules already exist... (Score:5, Interesting)
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AI has been proven to be worse at matching people with darker skin tones than with lighter skin tones. Guess who is going to be disproportionately falsely accused of crimes?
Modern cameras are much better in low light and low-contrast. But don't guess - it will only expose your pre-assumptions. The relality is that if people look similar, it is harder to get a match.
The actual problem is that crime rates are higher, much higher, among males, young people, blacks, and those with a criminal record. If you (appear to) match all four, then you are more likely to commit a crime, or to look like somebody who did. Hopefully this just means some polite questions, such as location at
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The actual problem is that crime rates are higher, much higher, among males, young people, blacks, and those with a criminal record.
Can you cite evidence for those claims? I'm aware of evidence that black people are much more likely to be charged with a crime, but not that they're more like to commit a crime.
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Can you cite evidence for those claims? I'm aware of evidence that black people are much more likely to be charged with a crime, but not that they're more like to commit a crime.
Crime rates vary significantly between racial groups; a 2005 study by the American Journal of Public Health observed that the odds of perpetrating violence were 85% higher for blacks compared with whites
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Now it is of course possible that the American Journal of Public Health is just a racist organization, and Wikipedia is not the best of sources, but here you go.
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There is the infamous "veil of darkness" study, where researchers looked at traffic stops around the time when daylight savings changed the time the sun set. It turns out that when the sun sets earlier, black people are pulled over less.
The researchers conclude that darkness makes it harder to identify the driver's race, and that there is a persistent racial bias in traffic stops.
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black people are much more likely to be charged with a crime, but not that they're more like to commit a crime.
Now you are gaslighting. The violent crime difference in UK is massive, and comparable to the US. Homicide data is the most reliable. You can't wave it away with a puff of sophistry. It is real and black communities are really suffering. Men, women and children. Don't ignore them to assuage your white middle-class guilt.
Do you make the same claim about male vs female crime rates?
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The previous director of the equalities commission, Phillips? if memory serves, talked about this very issue, that we need to accept data that indicates problems where they are, even if the data sounds racist, because how else are we going to support various communities? There can be all sorts of socioeconomic and cultural and historical accidents for why some communities have a higher risk of certain things than others, so they need help. I recall his stats about a bunch of commutes, including Chinese, Col
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You didn't cite any data. Surely you can come up with something?
The violent crime difference in UK is massive, and comparable to the US.
This story isn't about violent crime. It's about shoplifting and other property crimes. It's right there in the headline. "UK Passport Images Database Could Be Used To Catch Shoplifters".
Don't ignore them to assuage your white middle-class guilt.
Why do you assume I'm white and middle class?
Now you are gaslighting.
Apparently you're unfamiliar with the massive discrimination at every stage of the criminal justice system in many countries. This article [hrw.org] from Human Rights Watch gives a good summary. Here are a few of the exa
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These days you can just wear a mask and sunglasses anyway. Lots of people wear masks to protect from COVID, and sometimes I need sunglasses indoors due to light sensitivity.
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When idiots rely on facial recognition and arrest someone and don't notice that they are 8 months pregnant and the robber/hijacker in the video can't be. Even though the "suspect" point it out to them. It took a month for the prosecutor to dismiss the charges.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/0... [nytimes.com]
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When idiots rely on facial recognition and arrest someone and don't notice that they are 8 months pregnant and the robber/hijacker in the video can't be.
That was indeed idiotic, but if you actually bothered to read it you would see that she was identified (incorrectly) by the victim.
The problem of eye-witness reliability is an old one.
Re: Look rules already exist... (Score:2)
Passport facial recognition is more than a photo (Score:5, Informative)
I once took a look at what they were doing ie the computer screens at the back. They're adding your 3D facial image to your database record from filming you in the booth. They don't tell you they're doing this and a border officer got very annoyed that I noticed.
Putting this stuff on the police database is a massive extension of the police's facial recognition system as well as a breach of privacy norms in Govt.
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I once took a look at what they were doing ie the computer screens at the back. They're adding your 3D facial image to your database record from filming you in the booth. They don't tell you they're doing this and a border officer got very annoyed that I noticed.
Putting this stuff on the police database is a massive extension of the police's facial recognition system as well as a breach of privacy norms in Govt.
What 'norms' does the UK government adhere to? Apart from being a bunch of eccentric toffs?
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Good question and I wish they were merely eccentric toffs.
There used to be a law that prevented info sharing in Govt. There were obvious exceptions like tax/job data and social security. Blair scrapped the law but that was the norm.
You could also define the norm in terms of expectations and I doubt many would expect to end up on a police database for merely having a passport.
This Govt are race-baiting semi-facists. If it wasnt for their last two incarnations, they'd be the worst British govt of all time.
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And what can possibly go wrong, trying to use low quality, badly lit CCTV images to do facial recognition, using systems that are known to have problems with darker skin.
The Metropolitan Police have been found to be institutionally racist, multiple times. They even admitted it recently. Adding janky computer facial recognition is not going to improve the situation.
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Yes I have this concern too. The Met Police are also corrupt AF. Some would happily misapply such evidence in order to get anyone they personally don't like.
Ok, you catch them, now what? (Score:2)
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Over here in the US they might get a fine and then released. There really is no punishment which is why the problem has become so blatant and widespread. And I mean punishment not incarceration, housing criminals on the tax payer's dime doesn't really seem to deter anyone. Fining someone with no money is also a failure.
You already have a death penalty, so just do what the UK used to; death penalty for petty theft. That sure helped to reduce crime. Didn't it?
Where do you think we got the saying "May as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb" came from?
And now we see why (Score:1)
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We are civilized until the uncivil run rampant, and it is coming sooner than you think.
is that the strategy??? (Score:2)
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This is how we get ED-209. They are big fans apparently. https://youtu.be/Y1uR-OFLGCE [youtu.be]
hmmm... social credit ? (Score:2, Insightful)
is that the same UK making fun of China's social credit and facial recognition tech everywhere ?
hypocrisy much ?
Police don't investigate (Score:5, Interesting)
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No problem (Score:1)
Push-button policing (Score:2)
Having more cameras than a Las Vegas casino didn't reduce crime. Of course, cameras don't give the police a name and a location. Push-button policing is always the goal of universal surveillance.
LOL (Score:2)
First, most shoplifters don't HAVE a passport.
Second, they all use masks for the smash&grabs.