California Passes Strongest Right-to-Repair Bill Yet, Requiring 7 Years of Parts (arstechnica.com) 84
California, the home to many of tech's biggest companies and the nation's most populous state, is pushing ahead with a right-to-repair bill for consumer electronics and appliances. From a report: After unanimous votes in the state Assembly and Senate, the bill passed yesterday is expected to move through a concurrence vote and be signed by Governor Gavin Newsom. "Since Right to Repair can pass here, expect it to be on its way to a backyard near you," said iFixit CEO Kyle Wiens in a statement. iFixit, a seller of repair parts and tools and advocate for right-to-repair laws, based in San Luis Obispo, California, was joined in its support for the California repair law by another California company with a history of opposing repair laws: Apple. The consumer tech giant's letter urging passage of the bill was surprising, to say the least, though Apple said that the bill's stipulations for "individual users' safety" and "product manufacturers' intellectual property" were satisfactory.
California's bill goes further than right-to-repair laws in other states. Rather than limiting its demand that companies provide parts, tools, repair manuals, and necessary software for devices that are still actively sold, California requires that vendors provide those items for products sold after July 1, 2021, starting in July 2024. Products costing $50 to $99.99 must be accompanied by those items for three years, and items $100 and more necessitate seven years. The bill also provides for stronger enforcement mechanisms, allowing for municipalities to bring superior court cases rather than contact the state attorney general.
California's bill goes further than right-to-repair laws in other states. Rather than limiting its demand that companies provide parts, tools, repair manuals, and necessary software for devices that are still actively sold, California requires that vendors provide those items for products sold after July 1, 2021, starting in July 2024. Products costing $50 to $99.99 must be accompanied by those items for three years, and items $100 and more necessitate seven years. The bill also provides for stronger enforcement mechanisms, allowing for municipalities to bring superior court cases rather than contact the state attorney general.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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Yes: Apple already does this. It's recent that you can order parts, but they had to do that to comply with other right to repair laws so the new California one is nothing new there.
The new bit is that you have to keep a supply of available parts for seven years, but Apple already did that for their own repairs.
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Apple stores usually don't do the work of repairs, unless they're really simple and software based. There is indeed a generic problem in the Apple Store that the employees there have no idea what you're talking about and don't know what to do. Their online and phone support is a lot better, but the policy stated on the Apple Support website is that they provide software updates, support and repair parts, either through Apple or through authorized independent repair facilities until 7 years after the model w
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Basically the idea is, either apple or a third party company can provide the service to the items so long as apple provides the parts (or provides the specifications so a third party can produce the parts). The bill requires repair vendors that are "not an authorized repair provider" to "provide a written notice of that fact" to customers and to "disclose if it uses replacement parts that are used" or third-pa
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I can't speak for the phones but if you think their laptop repair is good, then you haven't actually experienced a company that is good.
Apple's fleece-the-consumer tactic of soldering flash storage prevents then having a good repair system. Companies that have socketed storagecan do next day on site repairs where they come to you and can swap everything up to and including the motherboard. If you call before a certain time you can be back up and running in under 24 hours. If you're lucky and the machine is
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I have enough spares on hand to make repairs non-urgent.
You are not a typical consumer. These laws are not written for you.
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It isn't even better than most. I would argue that it is in fact worse. This legislation is still sorely underwhelming unless it completely addresses artificial crippling of devices when 3rd party components and 3rd party repair shops are ruled out. The only thing that Apple did was stall so they could get crippling software in place that allows then to lock out 3rd parties. Just fixing the devices is not sufficient. The legislation needs to ENFORCE that there is competition in both the parts and the repair
Necessary software for devices that are still sold (Score:2)
Sold by whom? The vendor or Verizon or on craigslist?
7 years from the initial offering or 7 years from the last date device was sold by the vendor?
The real winner will be lawyers.
Re:Necessary software for devices that are still s (Score:5, Informative)
The bill itself says 7 years after it is out out of production. I imagine lawyers will still have some billable hours with this:
Notwithstanding any other law, every manufacturer of an electronic or appliance product with a wholesale price to the retailer, or to others outside of direct retail sale, of one hundred dollars ($100) or more, shall make available to owners of the product, service and repair facilities, and service dealers sufficient documentation and functional parts and tools, inclusive of any updates, on fair and reasonable terms, to effect the diagnosis, maintenance, or repair of a product for at least seven years after the last date a product model or type was manufactured, regardless of whether the seven-year period exceeds the warranty period for the product.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca... [ca.gov]
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This is pretty standard fare for Apple products, the law seems to have been designed around their support policies.
The biggest problem is going to be software (aka Android OS builds) and what is considered "parts and tools" and "fair and reasonable". According to the Right-to-Repair movement, parts and tools includes every single chip and thread of wire in a system whereas fair and reasonable means free of charge.
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Because the legislators are not complete idiots, and because electronics are not the first items in commerce that have had the issue of third party repair, the bill actually defines what "fair and reasonable" means. The exact wording from the bill:
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at costs and terms that are equivalent to the most favorable costs
made available by the manufacturer at no charge
reflects the actual cost to the manufacturer
Yeah, that's not going to fly, basically what they're saying is that not only does the manufacturer have to provide support at no extra cost, they can't even recover the overhead that is eliminated when dealing with properly trained large-scale operations.
So basically, what this proposal says is that the manufacturer has to GIVE you the tools FOR FREE a
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"except that, when a tool is requested in physical form, a charge may be included for the reasonable, actual costs of preparing and sending the tool."
So they are talking about software tools and documentation and they can cover overhead for physical tools. Am I going to be that upset about law being too consumer friendly? Companies will have to learn to adapt. Does that mean prices may have to rise to cover this? Maybe, but is that offset by allowing consumers to extend the lifetime of their devices? Time
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This bill removed the case of voiding warranty if you used the correct tools. This bill with the above posted definitions, removes any incentive to be an authorized provider, namely any potential discounts, millions of dollars in on-hands parts and on-hands tooling because according to the bill ANYONE should be provided the parts at the lowest cost charged to ANY other repair facility.
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if your only upside to being a repair center is cheaper parts then you're kind of missing the point. repair centers exist because they are experienced and only a small minority of people are actually capable or willing to do their own repair work, the point is they should have the option to.
This is like saying that because Autozone exists and sells all the parts for me to fix my car therefore mechanics are not going to exist anymore.
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Autozone doesn't sell Honda parts and if they do, it's from the local dealership, so you'll have to pay for both their costs. The bill says that Honda has to sell to everyone, regardless of volume and brand association at the lowest cost without any profit incentive.
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Sure they do [autozone.com], what they may not sell is Honda OEM parts, but you can also buy from the service department or online.
None of this goes against my point; if everyone can already buy parts for their cars and repair themselves, from the dealership or from 3rd parties why aren't mechanics out of business?
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Do you have any independent authorized Honda repair shops I don't know about which can repair your car with OEM parts without the exorbitant dealership hourly rates? The dealer charges $240-300/h, the independent mechanic charges $80/h but gets his parts from Autozone-like sources (non-OEM) and the overall trustworthiness and quality of repair for a specific mechanic varies greatly.
I would love having an "authorized" independent mechanic which is certified by Honda/VW etc to use proper parts, have proper tr
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Independent mechanics use OEM parts all the time, Honda included. OEM parts are available to mechanics just the same as they are available to owners. Any independent mechanic can give you the option of using OEM but most people will choose the cheaper option. Sometimes they don't have a choice because some parts aren't available from 3rd party.
What you want is an $80 mechanic that can do Honda warranty work, which is pretty rare but if you are under warranty you aren't paying anyway. Outside of being ab
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The only mention of software is "software or other mechanisms that provision, program, pair a part, provide or calibrate functionality, or perform any other function required to repair the product or part back to fully functional condition, including any updates."
So updates are probably not included in this. The good I imagine is that it is up to the owner of the device if they want to keep working, even if it's out of date.
My OG iPad Air is limited to IOS12 but it still serves the limited things I use it
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Apple's policy is 7 years of updates after the last sale of a model. Not uncommon to find these options in server-grade systems and high-end workstations. I know Dell offers this for their desktops/laptops/tablets but often at a cost exceeding the price of the unit.
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It's a moot point for non Apple computers because the OS vendor is independent from the hardware vendor, so as long as they use vaguely standard parts, the hardware will have a long support window.
My thirteen year old ThinkPad is running a, fully patched modern OS with the latest browser. Lenovo provided good Linux support originally and it remains well supported now (I do admit I have not checked of the modem still works).
The machine is likely to get a full 20 years of software support at this rate. I don'
Not surprised manufacturers supported this (Score:1)
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Only Apple does this today when it comes to electronics. Dell, HP etc has 7 year support options at exorbitant prices. But the Samsungs of this world, the truly 'consumer product' manufacturers, if it breaks within the warranty period they might replace your device with a refurbished one, but updates are often 2 years maximum after which all parts and updates are considered obsolete.
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forces those that make cheaper stuff add costs to make them less competitive.
They can sell the parts for "reasonable terms", so they can charge enough to cover their costs and even make a profit on the parts.
Your device breaks at 7 years 1 day? Sorry
They have to draw the line somewhere. Seven years is reasonable.
I've had my iPhone for nearly that long, and it's working fine. But when it dies, I'll replace it rather than repair it.
Exceptions and details (Score:4, Insightful)
I skimmed the bill looking at what exceptions are or are not in place. It has exceptions for game consoles and alarm systems. (I can kind of understand the alarm systems: a repair manual might help a robber to disable the alarm system.)
I was initially worried because there was no explicit exemption for small production runs and one-off devices. If I am a hobbyist and I sell a device to a friend, surely I shouldn't be legally obligated to write up a repair manual and provide parts for 3-7 years! Fortunately, the bill seems to only apply to products "for which the manufacturer makes available tools, parts, and documentation to authorized repair providers". So it looks like a hobbyist escapes the provisions by simply not having any authorized repair providers. (But what if I promise the friend to whom I sold the device that I'll fix it if it breaks. Doesn't that make me an authorized repair provider?)
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It's an interesting question but I imagine an easy way is to set the line if you are incorporated and selling under a business. "Joe Hobbyist" selling a homebuilt device to his buddy obviously can't be enforced. "Joe Hobbyist LLC" selling dozens of devices to multiple people gets much fuzzier but probably can fly under the radar but an interesting scenario.
That same LLC selling hundreds or thousands of devices and pulling a tidy profit means you'll probably have to account for this in your pricing.
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Then don't do that. If you can't guarantee parts availability, you shouldn't be promising you'll fix it if it breaks. Don't make promises you're unable to keep.
It's unlikely to be a problem in the real world, though, because these things are enforced by complaint. Unless your friend chooses to sue you in small claims court or something, the government will never f
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Do you have a Tax ID set up for your business, under which you sold this to a friend? No? You should be good.
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It's a hobby production. Unless you already used "not recommended for new designs" parts, you can just send them the BoM and let them have at it on digikey.
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Alarms should not rely on security through obscurity. They should be designed so that any tampering sets them off, as far as possible. When doing maintenance the owner has to manually disarm them first.
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Not just that but what happens if you are a very small OEM and one of the components you use gets discontinued by that manufacturer?
I misread it as (Score:2)
"...require 7 years of pants". I was then thinking, "wtf did Anthony Weiner do now?"
Beining of the end of disbosable IoT (Score:2)
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I too really like it when well-meaning legislation has the perverse effect of further cementing the competitive advantage of large corps who can absorb the added cost imposed by mommy.
Re:Beining of the end of disbosable IoT (Score:5, Funny)
The last time I went to a farmer's market, my local, artisan microwave maker expressed similar concerns regarding this legislation. Sadly, the mom and pop washing machine company went under years ago.
And worse, this may also keep some Chinese mushroom brand appliances from being sold in California. Which would be unfortunate, since my Gabbagabba Homeoooo chest freezer has been rock-solid for the past 3 months (after updating the app on my phone).
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well incredibly witty comments aside, you can at least concede that
a) there are still small companies that make electronics and other products
b) they don't have the same margins as a larger corps
right?
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a) there are still small companies that make electronics and other products
Name some that would be negatively impacted by this legislation.
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Yes to a, and for most products b. I'll go a step further in agreeing with you:most people I know replace broken electronics and appliances because of the total repair cost vs new--not the nonavailability of parts.
So I think the primary impact of the law will be an improved secondary market, which will keep better quality devices in use longer, and reduce total consumption of electronic goods (in particular CCC electronics that may be appealing to low-credit/income people).
I am comfortable with "mother" ste
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well incredibly witty comments aside, you can at least concede that
a) there are still small companies that make electronics and other products
b) they don't have the same margins as a larger corps
right?
The only "small" companies I can think of are boutique hifi brands or guitar amplifiers. Maybe the Pine Phone people as well?
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I too really like it when well-meaning legislation has the perverse effect of further cementing the competitive advantage of large corps who can absorb the added cost imposed by mommy.
In this case optimizing purely on costs is a case of market failure. I still remember when buying appliances was (nearly) for life and you replaced one not out of necessity, but because the new one offered some new compelling functionality. Today you are kept on a consumption treadmill by appliances that are designed to fail. Sure, they are cheaper to buy, but not when you factor lifetime replacement costs.
Essentially, disposable crap needs to stopped via regulation, as consumers are unable to accurately a
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This is actually more of an urban myth and these days truly a guiding ethos of many companies but it is not enforceable law. Now shareholders have a right that the company isn't intentionally losing money or deliberately destroying value but that's a case to prove in front of a judge. "Shareholder value" is vague and different shareholders have different values.
As the Supreme Court put it in the Hobby Lobby case:
“Modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the
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You are choosing that path by buying cheap appliances.
If you buy light (or heavy, go nuts, I did) commercial ones then not only are they hugely robust but spares will be available for a long time. I bought a commercial microwave. In real terms it cost less than the domestic microwave my mum bought when I was a teenager, but it's twice as powerful, 3 times the capacity, easier to clean and will have spares available for years and years to come. Honestly it's awesome, even better than I expected.
Even somethin
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The problem is its very hard to tell whats quality. Expensive is not the same as quality, manufacturers have caught on and simply place a logo on the same product and then charge more.
Unless you are an expert, its hard to tell, and perception of quality is more a function of advertising as opposed to quality of product.
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That's true to a quite large extent. However, if you go for commercial kit it's a different game, doubly so if you can readily find spares for the model you are considering. Unfortunately it doesn't quite apply uniformly since some of it is too different. But here we are nerds and able to figure out what hardware to buy.
So, I think legislation is the path forwards. Robust, repairable, long lasting kit is accessible to nerds who obsess over that (me), but not for most people.
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Software updates (Score:2)
I'd be curious if this did any fuzzy stuff with software updates. Windows 10/11 isn't supported that long, and I doubt the embedded android on e.g. samsung fridges is either.
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Windows 10 came out in 2015, and will be supported through 2025. That's 10 years, and 4 years after being discontinued. And if history is any indicator, they'll probably issue patches for "significant" problems after that.
I think with embedded devices, I don't expect any company to stay "current". I expect them to fix something if it's broken, but that'd be about it.
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Why would any sane person not be running the latest updates for Windows 10? Any hardware that runs 1507 can run the latest version just as easily.
$49.99 here we come (Score:2)
I imagine a lot of manufacturers will set RRP/MRP to $49.99 or less and the more creative ones may even split devices into bits to sell them.
Ah yes, this tablet is $49.99 but the x required security chips(not included) are $49.98 each.
Apple may have a head start on this with their accessory prices.
Perhaps the bill has clauses in it to prevent this, I would expect at least something about reasonable costs for parts.
Will make prices go up. (Score:2)
It costs money to keep those parts in stock/available. This will just raise prices for everyone. Many pieces of consumer electronics are 'disposable' and their price point and quality reflect that - not everyone has money to buy the $300 microwave when a $60 one is available.
Requiring to keep repair documentation and other items available may be fine, since it costs little extra money for the companies. Keeping actual replacement parts available costs money, which makes the products cost more.
The proper way
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I think the big idea here is that the marketplace won't offer $30-per-year-for-2-years microwaves in CA any longer. It'll have $30-per-year-for-6-years microwaves.
(Baked in there will be a $0.04 extra cost to stock replacement parts, to cover the manufacturer's expenses.)
There are a lot of ways these issues might get properly fixed and this is the next one being tried out in California.
Apple relocates HQ to Texas, closes CA Apple Store (Score:1)
Executives to fly to Texas for a day each year to sign required corporate documents.
CA Apple Stores closed.
Apple announces Texas based support centers.
Apple announces video conferenced Genius Bars.
Apple announces Texas based National Apple Store and fulfillment center.
Re: Apple relocates HQ to Texas, closes CA Apple S (Score:2)
That wouldn't help under this law, unless they plan to also stop selling any hardware in California.
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That wouldn't help under this law, unless they plan to also stop selling any hardware in California.
That is why the California Apple Stores are closed and a national store and fulfillment center in Texas is opened. California cannot prevent a citizen from buying something from out of state. Interstate commerce and all that.
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but law is still enforcable if its sold to people in california.
Only to companies with a presence in the state. With HQ and retails sales removed from CA, Apple could use subsidiaries to avoid that. Apple HQ (Texas) has two subsidiaries. Apple Sales and Fulfillment (Texas) and Apple R&D (California). So the company doing the sales, and its owner, are not in CA.
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Not likely. In fact, Apple endorsed California's right to repair bill!
7 years is not an arbitrary number. Apple has two lists - "vintage" and "obsolete". Vintage products are products where they haven't been sold for 5 years, and while updates and such may no longer be available, parts can be ordered.
After 7 years, the unit goes "obsolete" and parts and service is no longer available.
In other words, it's no coincidence - this is basically what Apple had been doing all along.
If Apple wanted a bill written by
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Apple relocates HQ to Texas.
Executives to fly to Texas for a day each year to sign required corporate documents.
CA Apple Stores closed.
Apple announces Texas based support centers.
Apple announces video conferenced Genius Bars.
Apple announces Texas based National Apple Store and fulfillment center.
Texas introduces new right to repair law after people moving there from California demand it.
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Apple relocates HQ to Texas. Executives to fly to Texas for a day each year to sign required corporate documents. CA Apple Stores closed. Apple announces Texas based support centers. Apple announces video conferenced Genius Bars. Apple announces Texas based National Apple Store and fulfillment center.
Texas introduces new right to repair law after people moving there from California demand it.
Nah, Apple will hire Texans rather than relocate Californians. They don't want to sabotage the favorable business environment.
So you end up buing apples only in California? (Score:1)
Old Sears washing machine guaranteed 30 years. (Score:2)
And yes, the new one uses about 1/6 of the water per load, which itself is now 10 years old.
what are 'reasonable terms? (Score:1)
There are some concessions and potential pitfalls, however. Pricing of parts and tools is left at "fair and reasonable terms.
Here is a question, what are 'reasonable terms exactly?
Seems that the idea is to fix pricing, this never can work of-course, prices cannot be fixed, if the price falls too low and cannot justify production then the good will not be produced, that's it.
I can definitely argue that if a product is outdated and hasn't been produce for a year or more, the production lines have been dismantled and reconfigured. The factory floors are repurposed for other parts for new products, so at that point it would be r
iFixit (Score:2)
iFixit has -always- been a great site. Not surprised to see them supporting this solution. Making things repairable (as most things were not that long ago) will keep a lot of crap out of landfills and waterways. It will encourage the re-growth of repair businesses, which used to be very common (radio, TV, audio etc.) and employed a lot of newb technicians. This will discourage companies that want to keep milking their customers.
Buying a new John Deere every 5 years anyway (Score:2)
So who cares?
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Sure a few farmers do that sort of thing. Most don't.
My oldest John Deere tractor is nearly 65 years old now, and Deere still sells some parts for it (and no payload files to prevent me from fixing it!). My newest is 9 years old now.
Wonder if they require data collection? (Score:2)
No, not that sort of data collection, I assume they already do that at the NSA's bidding.
What I'd love to see is some data on how many phones and $50 tchotchkes are actually repaired, and by the vendor or independent shops.
If, after the law has been in effect for five years, less than 1% of products N years old get repaired, can we revisit and perhaps stop requiring parts be stocked? I'd personally prefer a less expensive phone (and stocking parts makes every phone more expensive) than a more repairable one
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The are allowed to charge reasonable fees for parts - I would assume they would do what many vendors do and simply keep some spare parts in a warehouse. If the stats say only 20 people total will try to repair the device after 5 years, then they keep 30 parts in stock after that time. A couple feet of shelf space for a couple years is not going to have a massive cost attached. And the cost can be recouped as part of the reasonable charge for the parts.
*Especially* if manufacturers do the sane cost-cuttin
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The are allowed to charge reasonable fees for parts - I would assume they would do what many vendors do and simply keep some spare parts in a warehouse. If the stats say only 20 people total will try to repair the device after 5 years, then they keep 30 parts in stock after that time. A couple feet of shelf space for a couple years is not going to have a massive cost attached. And the cost can be recouped as part of the reasonable charge for the parts.
You'd hope so. I don't think it's as easy as that. There needs to be documentation, training, ordering systems, and parts staged in warehouses all over the place. You'd hope it wouldn't be exorbitant but it's not close to free either. And what I'm concerned about is that "reasonable" is a pretty vague term regulators will interpret as "material cost plus 10%", ignoring all the overhead.
*Especially* if manufacturers do the sane cost-cutting thing, and minimize the number of device-specific parts.
So what you're saying is an iPhone 15 should use parts from an iPhone X? That's the thing: every rev of the iPhone is an op
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I'm saying iPhone 15 should use *compatible* parts with iPhone X.
They don't have to be the *same*, any more than a modern PC will use the same video card as one from 10 years ago - what's important is that a modern video card will also just plug in and work in the old PC, and thus there's no reason to keep a stockpile of old video cards around to be able to repair old PCs.
You just need the parts to have the same dimensions and mounting point, and use the same electrical/data connections. Then the iPhone 15
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I'm saying iPhone 15 should use *compatible* parts with iPhone X.
They don't have to be the *same*, any more than a modern PC will use the same video card as one from 10 years ago - what's important is that a modern video card will also just plug in and work in the old PC, and thus there's no reason to keep a stockpile of old video cards around to be able to repair old PCs.
You just need the parts to have the same dimensions and mounting point, and use the same electrical/data connections.
I hear what you're saying. I think it's completely impractical and uneconomical for something like a phone device.
Let me ask you this: have you ever worked in computer hardware development? I have, for the last 30 years. I currently work at a company which makes storage systems (think server system connected to shelves of disks). You'd think swapping any one of those components out ought to be a piece of cake: they all use standard components and standard interfaces, right? It's not. Just refreshing the com
Is there a loophole? (Score:2)
From what I understand if you don't offer an express warranty the consumer warranty act's requirements don't kick in. Coupled with the following exception in SB-244:
"Nothing in this section shall be construed to require a manufacturer to sell service parts if the service parts are no longer provided by the manufacturer or made available to an authorized repair provider."
And you have yourself a right to repair law that does absolutely nothing. All the manufacturer has to do is walk away and there are no 3
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Parts will be available for X years ; machines will move to an X+1 year design lifetime and series upgrade cycle. So you buy it ; use it for 7 years (no repairs needed), then in year 8, "pop bang fizzle" : dead device and no repair parts.
What does this mean for serailized parts? (Score:2)
Do Apple and other manufacturers have to provide serialized parts? Do they have to provide the tools to pair the parts with the machine? Or will they be able to get away with their current system where you can only buy serialized parts by giving Apple the specific serial number of the device you want parts for where they will then send you an already serialized part that you can only install in that one device?