iFixit Petitions Government For the Right To Fix McDonald's Ice Cream Machines (404media.co) 80
samleecole writes: A group of right to repair activists and consumer rights advocates are petitioning the Librarian of Congress for the right to hack McDonald's notoriously unreliable McFlurry machines for the purposes of repair, according to a copy of the petition obtained by 404 Media.
"This is a request to expand the repair exemption for consumer electronic devices to include commercial industrial equipment such as automated building management systems and industrial equipment (i.e. soft serve ice cream machines and other industrial kitchen equipment)," the proposal, written by right to repair group iFixit and the nonprofit Public Knowledge, says. In addition, iFixit got its hands on a Taylor ice cream machine and tore it down in an effort to determine why they are broken so damn often and published a new video showing the process of taking the machine apart and explaining why they're always broken when you want fast food ice cream.
"This is a request to expand the repair exemption for consumer electronic devices to include commercial industrial equipment such as automated building management systems and industrial equipment (i.e. soft serve ice cream machines and other industrial kitchen equipment)," the proposal, written by right to repair group iFixit and the nonprofit Public Knowledge, says. In addition, iFixit got its hands on a Taylor ice cream machine and tore it down in an effort to determine why they are broken so damn often and published a new video showing the process of taking the machine apart and explaining why they're always broken when you want fast food ice cream.
mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:1)
mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees use NON OEM techs, tools, or mods.
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:5, Insightful)
Hence the existence of this story...
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:4, Informative)
My understanding is that there is a contract between McDonald's and Taylor that would have to be invalidated under a Right to Repair law. The existence of that contract means obtaining a DMCA exemption so that places like iFixit can publish error code meanings and repair guides is only the first step.
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It wouldn't surprise me if 80% of the broken machines aren't really broken at all. I imagine the machines are a pain to clean and/or franchisees don't want to stock the mix for them.
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:4, Insightful)
There's been a reasonable about of investigative reporting on the subject.
The amount of laziness is certainly an issue. The four-hour sanitation / sterilization cycle is also an issue (i.e., if the closing crew forgot to start it, the opening crew might not realize until the first order gets placed, say at 11 AM, meaning the machine is out of commission until well after the lunch rush). Then, there appear to be genuine reliability issues that likely stem from poor software engineering -- as I recall from that reporting, a large number of error codes (maybe all?) require a service visit, and we all know how long it can take to get a service rep to do an on-site repair. All of those factors combine to the empirically observed low availability rates.
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There's been a reasonable about of investigative reporting on the subject.
The amount of laziness is certainly an issue. The four-hour sanitation / sterilization cycle is also an issue (i.e., if the closing crew forgot to start it, the opening crew might not realize until the first order gets placed, say at 11 AM, meaning the machine is out of commission until well after the lunch rush). Then, there appear to be genuine reliability issues that likely stem from poor software engineering -- as I recall from that reporting, a large number of error codes (maybe all?) require a service visit, and we all know how long it can take to get a service rep to do an on-site repair. All of those factors combine to the empirically observed low availability rates.
Shirley that is something fixed by automation, get the machine to start it's sterilisation cycle at 1 AM or whenever.
I think that the OP has hit the nail on the head, it has to do with the service contract that the contractor is treating as a license to bill. Here in the UK it is very rare for the ice cream machine to be out of service, it's only slightly more common as them running out of a major ingredient (I.E. lettuce), same in Australia. In fact the only nation I've heard complain about ice cream ma
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:5, Informative)
They're "broken" in the sense that the moment even the simplest thing happens - such as someone loading the drawer slightly too much - the machine locks up until a tech from Taylor punches in an undocumented reset code. [youtube.com] This costs hundreds of dollars or more every "servicing," so many franchises started limiting their number of repair calls and just leaving the machine "broken."
That's why the Kytch add-on was so revolutionary and why McDonalds and Taylor illegally colluded to lie about Kytch [vice.com] and then forbade franchisees from buying a Kytch add-on.
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This is what I wanted to see here. Thank you.
It’s a winding road but a good read of all kinds of shenanigans. Plenty of fun legal issues. Why Ronald has tolerated this problem for so long is a mystery. Just buy out Taylor’s contract and support your franchises!
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:5, Informative)
I imagine the machines are a pain to clean and/or franchisees don't want to stock the mix for them.
Instead of imagining, you could also read about the specific machine that's only given to McDonald's, called the C602 model.
One of the many articles can be found at https://www.allrecipes.com/article/the-real-reason-mcdonalds-ice-cream-machines-are-always-broken/ [allrecipes.com]
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If you read between the lines that just confirms what I imagined. The thing is a PITA and eventually they just leave it broken.
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If you forego reading and just watch this video you would know the machines are designed to fail to generate repair revenue:
The REAL Reason McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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ME: "It wouldn't surprise me if 80% of the broken machines aren't really broken at all. I imagine the machines are a pain to clean and/or franchisees don't want to stock the mix for them."
OTHER GUY: "No, stop being ignorant and guessing and read this [big article that repeats the respondent above me who agreed with you but in more words]"
Me: "So, as I suspected. The thing is a PITA and eventually they just leave it broken."
You: "No no, you have to watch a big video which illustrates the machine is an intent
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:5, Insightful)
mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees use NON OEM techs, tools, or mods.
Translation: McDonalds won't let anyone else touch their custom McTaylor machine.
It's probably one of the worst examples of business corruption ever seen on public display. A specific model created and contracted between two parties for the explicit purpose of sustaining a service contract by making said machines basically inoperable the majority of the time, with neither party really giving a shit about negative customer or brand impact.
Even the mafia is impressed with that shakedown.
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...if you use someone else? Have Officer Big Mac throw you in the McDonaldland jail?
Revoke your franchise, probably. If you've invested six or seven figures in "your" business, that's a serious threat.
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...if you use someone else? Have Officer Big Mac throw you in the McDonaldland jail?
Hell, why not find out?
I hear the Hamburgler won't rape you in prison if you're from McDonaldland.
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If I were a franchise owner, I wouldn't take the risk and just forgo selling the silly ice cream. Customers unhappy? Whatever, they are going to complain about SOMETHING anyway. May as well have it be the ice cream machine that you can just point to articles like these and say, "Sorry, not my fault. Next."
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It must be nice still thinking capitalism is that kind. Like it was decades ago.
You should probably read the fine print on that McFranchise agreement. There's a reason McDonalds promises a (broken) ice cream machine in every damn store.
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The reason we enjoy weekends and sick leave is because people fought for them. Literally in some cases.
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Capitalism has never been kind. The reason we enjoy weekends and sick leave is because people fought for them. Literally in some cases.
While history certainly can confirm your theory, common sense had a hand in it too.
The reason we enjoy sick leave is because too many human business owners were killed by the very death and disease they insisted come to work that day and infect them.
The reason we enjoy weekends, is because business owners who wanted to remain living realized an actual end to the week every now and then, prevented their premature death.
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It must be nice still thinking capitalism is that kind. Like it was decades ago.
If capitalism stops me from giving McDonald's good money and getting an ice cream in return, then capitalism isn't unkind, it's bloody stupid.
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It must be nice still thinking capitalism is that kind. Like it was decades ago.
If capitalism stops me from giving McDonald's good money and getting an ice cream in return, then capitalism isn't unkind, it's bloody stupid.
(McCapitalism) "Yeah, can you get the fuck outta line? I got another 100 idiots behind you who give a shit about as much as I do. NEXT!"
With great volume, comes great arrogance.
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It must be nice still thinking capitalism is that kind. Like it was decades ago.
*chortles in slavery*
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Apparently it doesn't matter because the McDs near my work ALWAYS has a line. Maybe they are magically keeping their machine running and getting all the customers? Seems unlikely. People are addicted to McDs, ice cream or not.
It's good that there is some push back against McDs. Best of luck to the franchise owners. They'll need every bit of it.
Re:mcdonald corporate will not let the franchisees (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly.
There are many reasons why. And those legally trump iFixit and Right to Repair.
First, all the equipment is leased. When you set up a McDonalds, you're already agreeing to lease the equipment from McDonalds. No doubt modifications to any of that is against the agreement so you may want to repair it, but if you screw it up, you're likely on the hook for major money. No franchise owner owns any of the equipment.
Second, the franchise agreement basically prevents it. It tells you that any problems require calling an authorized service company. Going against this threatens your entire franchise.
Finally, well, your lease agreement. McDonalds is a real estate company - the vast majority of their income comes from leasing the land to the franchise owner.
The last two are important - because in other franchises, you lose the franchise and you're free to operate as an independent company (see Russia). But because McDonalds owns the land you're on, you lose the franchise, you lose your restaurant too. McDonalds will cancel your agreement, change the locks on the building (as landlord), and reopen under new management. Oh, they may close for a day - have to handle such things as transferring all the employees over from one franchise to another. But you can bet there are franchise owners willing to take over at a moment's notice. The employees work for one employer one day, then the enxt they work for a new employer.
That's what keeps people from repairing the machines. First, modifications are not allowed since they don't own the machines. Allowing otherwise would upend the whole notion of ownership - if I rent an AirBnB from you, can I knock out a wall in your house (i.e., modify it) because doing so would allow someone to install a device on their ice cream maker?
Second, those franchise agreements are what keeps McDonalds being a McDonalds by having standards set so every one you go to has the same food and the same taste. If you don't believe me, check out Mr Beast Burger where basically there are no standards, and some people get great burgers, others get what you find at a high school cafeteria.
Third, well, commercial properties fall under different set of laws regarding things like evictions and such than residential rentals. Since it's strictly money, a commercial rental typically doesn't have a lot of protections.
In the end, it doesn't matter what iFixit and others think. Even if they offered their services for free, a franchise owner would be well served to kick them out for trespassing because they would jeopardize their business.
A broken ice cream maker isn't worth jeopardizing a million dollar franchise fee, millions of dollars in leasing agreements (equipment, land, etc) and well, profit. After all, McDonalds make a ton of money in profit, which is why people are willing to go into business with such onerous terms - it makes money.
The only way it can change is if McDonalds actually wants it to happen. But since the major stockholders of both McDonalds and Taylor are the same people, that's not likely going to happen.
And unless you can convince someone that they would make so much more money with a working machine, it'll likely not change. I mean, if you wanted a cone, there's Fast Food Competitor across the street. Get the ice cream from them.
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That's what keeps people from repairing the machines. First, modifications are not allowed since they don't own the machines. Allowing otherwise would upend the whole notion of ownership - if I rent an AirBnB from you, can I knock out a wall in your house (i.e., modify it) because doing so would allow someone to install a device on their ice cream maker?
This is a bullshit analogy. A better one would be if you rent an AirBnB and the circuit breaker trips, but the host says you just have to live without power until you cover a $500 'specialist' to come fix it, because you're not allowed to flip the breaker back. Then you find out this happened as part of a scheme to save money on power rather than any actual power surge or other issue, and there's no particular expertise or liability issue in just flipping the damn breaker back yourself.
And it's a big enou
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Exactly this, if you're leasing equipment then the equipment should be fit for purposes for the duration of the lease.
If i rent a car and it breaks down at the side of the road, i just call the rental company and they supply another car, it's their problem to supply me with a working car and to get the faulty one towed.
Over the Air Reception Device rule (Score:2)
Finally, well, your lease agreement. McDonalds is a real estate company - the vast majority of their income comes from leasing the land to the franchise owner.
I'd draw an analogy to the US Federal Communications Commission's invalidation of rules imposed by homeowners' associations and landlords that would ban homeowners and tenants from installing an antenna. See, for example, the Over the Air Reception Device rule [spectrumam.com].
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In the end, it doesn't matter what iFixit and others think. Even if they offered their services for free, a franchise owner would be well served to kick them out for trespassing because they would jeopardize their business.
Comments like this are the reason why Capitalism has such a bad reputation these days. "Unable to buy something because we the retailer fucked up? Sucks to be you. No it won't be fixed, It makes us money at your expense. Go fuck yourself."
At some point the Capitalists need to realize that they will either need to start catering to the People as they should, or the People will remove the old guard by force and install new Capitalists who will.
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Neat (Score:2)
Now do modern farming equipment!
Re:Neat (Score:5, Informative)
Farmers are one of the biggest hitters in the right to repair movement.
Re:Neat (Score:5, Insightful)
For farmers, a delay in getting something repaired could mean bankruptcy because their crop rotted in the field. And if it's something easy to fix but locked just so John Deer can charge for a service call, they have every right to be pissed and look at alternate means of repair.
Re:Neat (Score:4, Funny)
Now do modern farming equipment!
Imagine how hard it is to get a McFlurry on Old McDonald's farm [wikipedia.org] ... :-)
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done, just convince every other state or the fed to also sign it into law, https://www.reuters.com/world/... [reuters.com]
Original investigative video (Score:4, Informative)
If you are interested in what the hell is going on with these machines this video is how I found out about it. Real investigative journalism happening here, Youtube is a wild place.
The REAL Reason McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken [youtube.com]
Re:Original investigative video (Score:5, Insightful)
what a useless comment, no shit if "you're already familiar with this issue don't watch the video that familiarized everyone with the issue" what does that even mean
so easily triggered by some hair dye, how do you walk around in the world without a constant aneurysm you baby
The franchisees don't want the machines to work (Score:1)
The franchisees don't want the machines to work. The daily clean-up time (and believe me... when dealing with dairy you want it to be VERY clean) takes a long time. They lose money unless they are selling TONS of servings. Nobody could possibly sell enough ice cream to break even.
Let's suppose it is going to take 1 person-hours each day to clean the machine and you make 10 cents profit per serving. Assuming labor cost of $10/hour (these numbers are all fiction). You're going to have to sell 100 serving
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If it was a constant money pit McD would have simply dropped them by now, their bean counters know better than you.
-Billions served...
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If it was a constant money pit McD would have simply dropped them by now, their bean counters know better than you.
You don't understand the current mechanics of this. McDonalds Corporate and Taylor have a corporate partnership in place and both profit off this agreement at the expense of the franchise sites needing to have their machines repaired by Taylor.
And if you are looking for proof of the profits, Taylor published in 2018 that 25% of their revenue came from recurring parts and services business.
So from a corporate McD's standpoint, they are making money by having their franchise sites need to purchase a Taylor
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Just quit selling the ice cream then. Each franchise no doubt has the data to back up whether it's worth it or not.
Just not selling something at a McDonalds probably is not allowed in their franchisee argeement. If it were illegal to sell it, that's a different matter.
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I'll assume you just slipped a decimal place there, because it's mathematically impossible to make a profit of 600% of the selling price.
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I have to believe the patent on this machine has expired, there has got to be someone who can build a self cleaning and high reliability version. Heck I would buy one for home.
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The franchisees don't want the machines to work. The daily clean-up time (and believe me... when dealing with dairy you want it to be VERY clean) takes a long time. They lose money unless they are selling TONS of servings. Nobody could possibly sell enough ice cream to break even.
Good solution 1: Throw the machines out. Don't sell ice cream, and dont pretend you sell ice cream. Good solution 2: Raise the price so that selling ice cream makes you profit. Good solution 3: Get another manufacture of these machines who makes machines that are easier to clean. Bad solution: Pretend your machines are working, pay lots of money to lease the machines, don't use them.
Seriously, just outside the train station that I regularly used (before Covid) there is a guy in a van selling ice cream, a
Carpigiani machines in McD's (Score:3)
Taylor is not the only company allowed to sell Ice Cream machines for McD's in the USoA, there is also Carpigiani. The machines cost a tad more upfront, and the service network is smaller than Taylor's but the Carpigiani machines fail less, and are easier to maintain and repair.
But, even in terriotires close to carpigiani repair centers, McD's franchisees keep buying Taylor machines to save a few bucks.
A great case ofg saving pennies to lose dollars. The francisees made their bed, now they have to lie in it. They are sowing the seeds they planted.
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Taylor is not the only company allowed to sell Ice Cream machines for McD's in the USoA, there is also Carpigiani. The machines cost a tad more upfront, and the service network is smaller than Taylor's but the Carpigiani machines fail less, and are easier to maintain and repair.
To be fair, that's a very recent change. From 1956 to 2017, the only option was Taylor. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of McDonald's locations were built at a time when there was only a single eligible vendor (based on store count in 2017 and store count in 2022).
The machine isn 't broken. (Score:4, Insightful)
What did happen sometimes (in the evenings and on the weekends when the top-level managers and the crew they scheduled to work when they were working were all not working), is that the employees let the reservoir run out of mix and didn't want to send anybody back to the walk-in refrigerator to get another bag of it (or sometimes when the high turnover rate had gotten ahead of them, the evening crew would literally not have anybody working who had been trained how to do it), so they would tell customers "I'm sorry, the ice cream machine isn't working right now." What it meant was, the mix reservoir is empty and we don't have time/energy/know-how to go grab another bag of mix and pour it in right now.
Go at noon on a weekday. There'll be a line, but the ice cream machine will be working and the food will be prepared correctly, and recently.
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I worked at one for 2 years in the 90s and that doesn't really align with my experience. The walk in fridge was 30 feet away, it wasn't some huge hassle to go get stuff from it(you were always needing bags of fries and burgers and such from the adjacent freezer anyway, so it's just one more trip in a long list), and there were always people w/ nothing better to do at the moment, or a manager would do it. And everyone knew how to/could do it. You get the sack/bag of milk-like-product from the fridge, you
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I don't doubt your explanation, but I do doubt that it fully explains what others are reporting, given that the Taylor C602 machine in question wasn't introduced until 2004, from what I can gather. So while lazy fast food workers is a common stereotype for a reason, there are well documented issues with the modern ice cream machines that lead to problems that weren't around with the models you used in the '90s. Hence the rise of the meme about the machines always being broken not starting until long after y
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Briefly, they're not the same machine you used. Having read about this for a few years - They made franchises buy the $18,000 machines and they've been nothing but trouble nationwide ever since. It has to do with I believe it's a 4 hour cleaning cycle. In theory this is a great feature. The bad part is if the machine thinks the temperature is off by something really small, it fails. There's the problem. It's out until it passes the cleaning cycle. If it thinks a component failed then a tech has to come out.
I'm torn (Score:2)
McDonald's is disgusting and should go out of business but I'm fully in favor of right to repair but if they sell more ice cream they make more profit....
I am caught in a Kirkian Logic Trap!
What's needed is a shareholder lawsuit (Score:2)
No doubt these machines being broken all the time means that the various franchises cannot sell the product.
No product sales = no revenue.
No revenue = no (or less) profit.
No/less profit = less ROI.
Less ROI = less shareholder value that should've been more.
Less shareholder value = failure of fiduciary duty by coporate.
Failure of fiduciary duty = shareholder lawsuit.
Shareholder lawsuit = THOSE FUCKING MACHINES FINALLY GETTING FIXED!
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They still get sales. Someone who went in to get an ice cream is going to walk out with a soda and fries. A soda is pure profit. Their cost is pennies, even counting the cup. Fries are probably also a high profit margin item.
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Someone who went in to get an ice cream is going to walk out with a soda and fries
I dunno - warm, stale fries on a hot day doesn't exactly sound refreshing to me. Nor does a flat, tasteless (due to weak/low syrup) drink. Did I mention the ice makers in the fountain machines also break down all the time (or just nearly always empty - you just get some noise and a few flakes out of it)?
So how does Dairy Queen do it? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't like some mysterious unsolvable problem. Dairy Queen and thousands of mom & pop ice cream shops (which are usually better) manage to keep soft-serve machines running every single day. This sounds more like a human problem than an equipment problem.
Re:So how does Dairy Queen do it? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't like some mysterious unsolvable problem. Dairy Queen and thousands of mom & pop ice cream shops (which are usually better) manage to keep soft-serve machines running every single day. This sounds more like a human problem than an equipment problem.
It is a human problem, but the humans in question have masqueraded the human problem as an equipment problem (likely for the purpose of increasing service revenue). As you point out, ice cream machines are not magic and there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of them in service across the country daily. OTOH, contractual requirements that you must buy this exact model of machine from this specific company and call for service if anything goes wrong (coupled with software with a purposefully obtuse interface) creates an opportunity for a whole bunch of graft.
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This isn't like some mysterious unsolvable problem. Dairy Queen and thousands of mom & pop ice cream shops (which are usually better) manage to keep soft-serve machines running every single day. This sounds more like a human problem than an equipment problem.
It is a human problem, but the humans in question have masqueraded the human problem as an equipment problem (likely for the purpose of increasing service revenue). As you point out, ice cream machines are not magic and there are probably hundreds of thousands if not millions of them in service across the country daily. OTOH, contractual requirements that you must buy this exact model of machine from this specific company and call for service if anything goes wrong (coupled with software with a purposefully obtuse interface) creates an opportunity for a whole bunch of graft.
Not to mention that particular model used in McDonald is not used by anyone else. Even if you buy similar gear from the same supplier, your model is different, and magically those models don't break down as often.
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The McDonalds version is better.
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It's a shareholder value problem. Taylor and McDonalds have the same major shareholders, and Taylor and McDonalds are very "chummy" (Taylor spun off from McDonalds).
As such, McD's have to buy a VERY SPECIFIC McD's model. You cannot lease this model
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Dairy Queen revenue 2020: $225M
McDonald's gross profit 2023: $13.9B
That's why. McD has different challenges and risks than DQ.
R2R is a vibrant area of economic democracy. (Score:2)
Maybe now I can finally get a fucking shake! (Score:1)
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It's been 6 years since I've been able to get a McDonald's shake, since their machine is always broken. A shame, because they're actually really fucking good.
Tell us you've never had a real milkshake without telling us. McDonalds shakes aren't even milkshakes because they don't contain enough milkfat. They're made with skim milk and corn syrup. They are, in short, trash food. Almost any diner in America will do a real milkshake, which tramples all over the crap you can sometimes get at Mickey Deeznutz.
Octogenarians need their soft-serve (Score:2)
Problem local to the USA (Score:2)
Why is this problem limited only to the USA? In the Europe you can buy ice-cream in McDonald's without any problems.
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The main reason is the USA is not Europe. The same reason that answers a million other comparisons of "Europe does this, why not USA?"
How does food business even exist? (Score:2)
I'm at a loss to understand how any business that sells food even exists. All that has to happen is that a few people die from your stuff and you're totally screwed, if not put in prison. And, that probably has a lot to do with the McD ice cream machine follies.
Why can't machines be aseptic? (Score:2)
From what I understand, a big part of the problem is the fact that the machines have to be sterilized daily... in no small part, because the pre-frozen dairy dessert mix (or whatever they call it) becomes very non-sterile while the machines are being refilled.
So... why can 't they come up with a machine that ships a removable, factory-sealed module with the paddles and aseptic dairy mix inside & just has to be pulled out & swapped when empty? They could send the empty ones back, sterilize them at th