Zoom Contradicts Its Own Policy About Training AI on Your Data

An anonymous reader shares a report: Zoom updated its Terms of Service in March, spelling out that the company reserves the right to train AI on user data with no mention of a way to opt out. On Monday, the company said in a blog post that there's no need to worry about that. Zoom execs swear the company won't actually train its AI on your video calls even though the Terms of Service still say it can.

The company's legal documents call your video, audio, and chat transcripts "Customer Content." When you click through Zoom's terms, you agree to give Zoom "perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, and transferable license and all other rights" to use that Customer Content for "machine learning, artificial intelligence, training, testing," and a variety of other product development purposes. The company reserves similar rights for "Service Generated Data," which includes telemetry data, product usage data, diagnostic data, and other information it gets from analyzing your content and behavior.

Ignore them, they're lying

[CAIMLAS]

Sorry, they're probably lying.

If their ToS permit them to do something, they have the legal right to do it. That's how things work now.

It doesn't matter whether they are or are not. You grant them that 'right' and they're indemnified should they do so.

Re:

[real_nickname]

Plus most people have no choice but to use their tools because that's what their company use. I guess teams is doing the same so we are fucked anyway.

Jitsi Meet: Self hosting solution

[DrYak]

so we are fucked anyway.

Or reasonable companies could self-host Jitsi Meet (the no-software just click on a link in the browser video chat).
It's open-source after all.

Re:Ignore them, they're lying

[poptix]

Nah, *they* aren't training AI with your data.

All the companies they sold your personal video calls to are training their AI on your data.

Re:

[omnichad]

It's like how Google says they won't sell your data for advertising purposes. Yeah, they sell ad spots based on your information - it's too valuable to sell the data.

Re:

[techno-vampire]

If their ToS permit them to do something, they have the legal right to do it.

Wrong. Just because they say they have the right to do something doesn't make it legal. If they say they have the right to seize your first born and use it as a slave, that doesn't make it legal.

Re: Ignore them, they're lying

[wgoodman]

For all the therapy sessions that happen over zoom now, they're going to have some crazy HIPAA lawsuits.

Re:Ignore them, they're lying

[Anubis IV]

If their ToS permit them to do something

It doesn't. At least, it doesn't as of today.

Here are Zoom's Terms of Service [explore.zoom.us]

The modification date for the ToS is today and Section 10.4 now stipulates the following:

Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent.

So, it sounds like they were serious about what they were saying, or at the very least they underestimated the response to this discovery and wanted to walk it back. Either way, issue resolved.

Re: Ignore them, they're lying

[1s44c]

So zoom won't use this content, but the TOS service allow zoom to sublicense that content to third parties to use. That's not better.

Re:

[the_B0fh]

Doesn't matter. They will have that license to your stuff *FROM TODAY* and they can use your stuff *FROM TODAY* once they remove that "we pinky promise not to use it" line some time in the future.

Re: Ignore them, they're lying

[klipclop]

So what can't you put in a TOS? I think it's time for the courts to outline what is allowed in a TOS vs what will be dismissed.

Re: Ignore them, they're lying

[easyTree]

ProTip: even if their ToS don't allow it, they're still going to do it if there's business value to be had.

Zoom COO comments on HN saying they aren't...

[Jules]

https://news.ycombinator.com/i... [ycombinator.com]

Spittle frothing locals are not impressed. Full thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/i... [ycombinator.com]

HIPAA Issues

[JimMcc]

Our EMS department uses Zoom for our Run Reviews. These run reviews contain sensitive patient data, which by HIPAA we are allowed to discuss for training purposes. However, if Zoom is recording, retaining, and later disseminating these sessions that would be a HIPAA violation. No idea how we address that mess other than not using Zoom.

Re:

[iAmWaySmarterThanYou]

Don't use zoom.

Although having supplied some IT cloud services to a fair number of hospital groups, my guess is maybe half of the medical industry is in gross violation of hipaa anyway, far worse than your use of zoom.

Some of the shit our customers admitting to doing at their hospitals was pretty whack.

Issue resolved, Zoom already fixed their TOS

[Anubis IV]

Here are Zoom's Terms of Service [explore.zoom.us]. Check the modification date: August 7, 2023.

Scroll down to Section 10.4 and you'll see this bold text:

Notwithstanding the above, Zoom will not use audio, video or chat Customer Content to train our artificial intelligence models without your consent.

Looks like they saw the mob picking up its pitchforks and issued a hasty update. We can all put our pitchforks down and go home now.

Re:

[VeryFluffyBunny]

Is that legally binding?

Re:

[Anubis IV]

Is that legally binding?

IANAL, but I'd assume it's safe to say that it's as legally binding as anything else in their TOS.

Re: Issue resolved, Zoom already fixed their TOS

[easyTree]

'No' then :-)

Re:

[Anubis IV]

'No' then :-)

In which case the irrevocable license you grant them isn't valid either, in which case this isn't a problem.

Not really fixed, Zoom can still sell access

[ttnb]

Here's a somewhat-in-depth analysis, taking into account this supposed fix: https://zoomai.info/ [zoomai.info] Even their updated, supposedly-fixed Terms of Service allow Zoom to sell access to their collection of recordings to AI companies, for purposes of training any AI models of companies other than those of Zoom Video Communications, Inc.

Re:

[LVSlushdat]

But just as easily/quickly they changed that clause in their TOS, they can, just as quickly/easily change it back when we're not looking. Unless you monitor/read these companies TOS continually, they can change this ANYTIME THEY WANT... Someone mentioned the fix... DON'T USE ZOOM.. period.

Re:

[the_B0fh]

More importantly, when they remove the pinky promise not to do it clause, they will already have the rights *FROM THE DAY THEY FIRST GAVE IT TO THEMSELVES*. On top of that, they have the right to use your data for non-AI training purposes, and to sell it to other AI training companies *TODAY*

Re: Issue resolved, Zoom already fixed their TOS

[easyTree]

And... ProTip: there's no way to know whether they are sticking to their own rules, regardless what they say.

Youz data iz belongs...

[VeryFluffyBunny]

...to us now. Youz have no say-so.

If it isn't meant to do that, then take it out

[Tora]

So tired of people saying "Ohh, I know the contract says that but it's not what we MEAN"
Then, change it.

One way to fix that

[Megahard]

Begin all your sessions with a recital of Jabberwocky.

\o/

[easyTree]

Perhaps, if we put in a sustained collective effort, we can teach the AIs the phrase 'Fuck Zoom' is a general greeting.