Uber, DoorDash Sue NYC Over Minimum Wage Law (nytimes.com) 63
Uber Eats, DoorDash, and GrubHub filed lawsuits on Thursday seeking to strike down New York City's minimum wage law for delivery workers. The New York Times reports: Uber, DoorDash and Grubhub on Thursday each filed a request for a temporary restraining order in State Supreme Court in Manhattan to stop the wage changes from going into effect on July 12. Relay, a smaller, New York-based food delivery platform, did the same. The new pay standard, which was announced last month, would require gig platforms to pay food delivery workers about $18 per hour and to increase that amount to $20 per hour by 2025. Delivery workers currently make around $11 an hour, according the city's estimate.
But Uber and the other gig companies say they will be forced to pass on the cost of the higher wages to consumers by raising prices. They argue that the city's modeling does not correctly calculate the degree to which these higher prices will harm local restaurants. And they say that the new system will work to deliverers' disadvantage because the company, to control costs, will have to strictly monitor how much time they spend online on the apps but not actually doing deliveries. "The rule must be paused before damaging the restaurants, consumers and couriers it claims to protect," Josh Gold, an Uber spokesman, said in a statement.
In a prepared statement, Vilda Vera Mayuga, the commissioner of New York City's Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, defended the new wage standard. "Delivery workers, like all workers, deserve fair pay for their labor, and we are disappointed that Uber, DoorDash, Grubhub and Relay disagree," she said. "These workers brave thunderstorms, extreme heat events and risk their lives to deliver for New Yorkers -- and we remain committed to delivering for them."
But Uber and the other gig companies say they will be forced to pass on the cost of the higher wages to consumers by raising prices. They argue that the city's modeling does not correctly calculate the degree to which these higher prices will harm local restaurants. And they say that the new system will work to deliverers' disadvantage because the company, to control costs, will have to strictly monitor how much time they spend online on the apps but not actually doing deliveries. "The rule must be paused before damaging the restaurants, consumers and couriers it claims to protect," Josh Gold, an Uber spokesman, said in a statement.
In a prepared statement, Vilda Vera Mayuga, the commissioner of New York City's Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, defended the new wage standard. "Delivery workers, like all workers, deserve fair pay for their labor, and we are disappointed that Uber, DoorDash, Grubhub and Relay disagree," she said. "These workers brave thunderstorms, extreme heat events and risk their lives to deliver for New Yorkers -- and we remain committed to delivering for them."
Soo thoughtful! (Score:5, Interesting)
"The rule must be paused before damaging the restaurants, consumers and couriers it claims to protect," Josh Gold, an Uber spokesman, said in a statement."
What a kind and caring person Josh is!
Re:Soo thoughtful! (Score:5, Informative)
“In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.
“By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”
--Franklin Delano Fucking Roosevelt
Re: Soo thoughtful! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, that's been gone since sometime in the 60's. We decided that "out of many, one" was actually "from the many to the one [%]"and they happily voted in people who are as much like ourselves as the average middle-class worker is to a homeless person. They don't understand our lives, our concerns, or anything else about us. They only concern themselves with "the lessers" when it comes time to lie enough to get them to vote. At any other point it's just redirection, bigotry, racism, and hatred to keep the plebes busy and distracted.
I wonder if we'll ever tire of being virtual serfs?
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The simple reality is that the real minimum wage is always $0, which is where a person will find themselves when no one can employ them at the required rates as their labor is not that valuable.
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Haha. You're forgetting about the feature that when they become unemployable, we will pay them $20 /hr to not work.
Of course, it's clear that this feature is unsustainable, but it appears that it will take quite some time for it to bankrupt the US. In the meantime, party!
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The simple reality is that the real minimum wage is always $0, which is where a person will find themselves when no one can employ them at the required rates as their labor is not that valuable.
The real minimum wage is less than $0 because in the absence of forced governmental restrictions, slavery (in forms such as slave trafficking, forced labor, etc.) exists. Unfortunately and to the shame of humanity, this sub-zero minimum wage currently exists in many places in the world, including the US. Sub-zero minimum wages exist because the economic motivation toward slavery and other forms of oppression in a truly laissez-faire economy is too great and too profitable.
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Why are Americans such socialists? Not even in social democratic Scandinavia do minimum wages exists. In free societies we have freedom of contract. Don't sign a contract that doesn't pay a "living wage" (whatever that is).
online on the apps but not actually doing delivery (Score:3)
so they don't want to pay to have people waiting ready to take an order?
don't want to pay for time from order to getting to the pick up location?
don't want to pay for the time that the diver needs to wait at the pick location for it to be ready?
don't want to pay for the time after dropping an order to get back to your core zone?
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not to mention the wear and tear on the vehicle they drive and the cost of gasoline or electricity to charge an EV.
Re:online on the apps but not actually doing deliv (Score:5, Insightful)
Their business model is based on exploiting someone. If they can't exploit the restaurants, or the workers they'll have to try to exploit their customers who have the choice not to use them.
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“In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.
“By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I
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They have always pretended they don't employ these people.
Their business model is based on exploiting someone. If they can't exploit the restaurants, or the workers they'll have to try to exploit their customers who have the choice not to use them.
Exactly. Same goes for "ride sharing" businesses. The entire business model from the start of these businesses is geared towards having a thriving business with customers when the technology is ready to replace human drivers with automated systems. They don't really want human drivers, they're forced to use human drivers until the technology to replace human drivers is mature.
These companies are trying to convince, and are succeeding in too many cases, of convincing people that are working in a contracto
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If the worker is subject to being called to a job and is not free to pursue their own activities without interruption then they should be considered on the clock.
I'm not out to defend the companies, but the deliveries are at the delivery person's discretion. That means they are very much free to pursue their own activities during that time.
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All you need to know:
App-based delivery workers are usually treated as independent contractors rather than company employees, so general minimum wage laws do not apply to them.
The companies in the lawsuits filed on Thursday say city officials justified the law based on flawed studies and statistics.
The city's surveys of delivery workers were biased and designed to elicit responses that would justify a minimum wage, the companies said.
They're already pissed they have to pay people at all to get them to work for them. They expect to be able to get away with paying under minimum wage. Why do the workers exist if not to make the delivery companies richer?
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You don't get rich by spending money.
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The difference between the pizza delivery job I had in the 80s and the various delivery services now (aside from teh whole internet thing)
In the 80s, I worked a scheduled shift of however many hours. My boss could have me doing just about anything within reason for his business during that time, though driving pizzas around was my primary thing. Slow day? Fold boxes, drive thru a few neighborhoods and leave flyers for people, clean, etc.
Today's delivery service drivers do whatever it is they want to do u
False (Score:4, Insightful)
they will be forced to pass on the cost of the higher wages to consumers by raising prices.
There is absolutely nothing which requires a company to pass on the cost of higher wages. Nothing. Companies choose to do so in order to keep up their profits.
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> You idea is what? Print money, have UBI for everyone and the only work anyone does is purely voluntary?
oh wow, what a shitty life. Can you imagine having that much freedom that you can make your own choices, enjoy your own life style, chase after your own hobbies, and not be burdened by bills, debt, inflation, and over all "cost of living"?
That just sounds so awful! Freedom is uncomfortable. I need my regimented 5 day paid for 40 hours but work 50 hours week otherwise I'd be completely lost and without
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Ask yourself how much a CEI, CFO makes for Uber, etc...then you think it is killing capitalism
If they make 4 or 5 times the average pay of the company then it is capitalism
if they make 100 to 1000 then it is slavery.
so lets bring back slavery as it will be good for the consumers and restaurants
Re:False (Score:4, Insightful)
Congratulations on knocking down that strawman. There is nothing preventing a business that has been taking an inordinate overhead, from reducing that overhead rather than increasing costs. There is also nothing preventing such a business from finding efficiencies elsewhere to offset the costs of paying their workers a fucking living wage.
Oh, right. You think if you simp and dicksuck the billionaires hard enough, you will win the lottery and join their club. Because you're insane.
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nothing preventing such a business from finding efficiencies elsewhere to offset the costs
Yeah. Come pick up your own pizza.
Re:False (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah. Come pick up your own pizza.
For some reason pizza delivery has been profitable for years without needing to categorize the drivers as contractors. Maybe Uber Eats, DoorDash, and Grubhub are simply bad ideas.
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Mainly it's that pizza delivery outfits very carefully select employees who don't or can't fight back against wage theft, so they may more freely exploit their employees to subsidize their profit model.
It literally costs a bit under sixty cents a mile to operate a motor vehicle, but a great many francizes have innovated wage theft by reimbursing employees only half that much per mile, which neatly cuts the costs they'd pay to operate a fleet of vehicles by roughly 50%. Additionally, rather than simply rais
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> Mainly it's that pizza delivery outfits very carefully
> select employees who don't or can't fight back
> against wage theft, so they may more freely exploit
> their employees to subsidize their profit model.
Also, since pizza delivery is a mostly-cash business, that involves sending people out all over town to drop stuff off and collect said cash, so no one bats an eye at seeing a pizza delivery guy is in any given area... It's an absolutely wonderful front for other, more profitable but less le
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Their inability to operate a profitable business is not my problem.
Re: False (Score:2)
Nobody is forcing you to live in NYC and deliver packages at a loss. These people are choosing to take these jobs in the hope of making a better life for themselves. Regulations like this ALWAYS results in the minorities and the poor having less opportunity, not more.
Why would I hire a poor minority student when for the same amount of money Iâ(TM)m now forced to pay them I can find a middle aged experienced worker? Hence why McDonalds and co is more and more hiring 30-50yo white dudes to manage their k
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Why would I hire a poor minority student
Because it's illegal to discriminate in hiring based on race, age, or socio-economic status?
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And it is illegal to use race in college admissions, yet Harvard tells us they will keep doing it.
Again, why would I hire someone without experience when it’s the same cost as hiring a stable, experienced employee?
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Nobody is forcing you to live in NYC where wages are about to become fair for drivers. Theres plenty of places where they are not. Feel free to move there if its THAT important to you that other people cant afford their rent.
Some of these drivers you see, where born there so why the hell should they move out of town when theres a perfectly valid alternative involving not moving out of town, and that alternative is a livable minimum wage. And
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I hear San Francisco is doing great with businesses, malls and stores are closing and it is boarded windows that take their place, not new minority small business.
Re: False (Score:3)
I don't know if you realize this, but business came into existence before the concept of investors.
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No it didn't.
By definition, any business has at least one investor - the person who started the business.
Re:False (Score:5, Insightful)
Their comment still stands. Higher wages don't lead to higher prices. Prices are set to what the market will bear, and if the market could bear a price increase, they would have already increased prices.
If higher wages means their business is not profitable at prices the market will bear, they should go out of business and let profitable companies take their place.
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Very true, but did you ever notice how nobody screams about "inflation" when talking about executive compensation? Back when I was a kid, it hovered around 25x the median worker pay. Today it is around 300x worker pay. Adjusted for inflation and using the same metric. The right wingers that I have talked about this with, all say this is a good thing.
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Very true, but did you ever notice how nobody screams about "inflation" when talking about executive compensation? Back when I was a kid, it hovered around 25x the median worker pay. Today it is around 300x worker pay. Adjusted for inflation and using the same metric. The right wingers that I have talked about this with, all say this is a good thing.
Is that adjusting for company size? The various studies I have seen are somewhat nebulous on that part.
Additionally, how much worth of "additional compensation" (ie: stock options, performance bonuses, etc) are now documented and easily accessible vs say back in the 60s, 70s and 80s?
Comparing two CEOs:
CEO A runs a company with 3000 employees with $30M in receipts, a 3% overall profit margin and is paid 25x the median worker pay
CEO B runs a company with 30000 employees with $3B in receipts, a 3% overall prof
Re: False (Score:2)
You can't say prices should rise to what the market will bear, without saying CEO wages should fall to what the market will bear -- not "well that seems right given how much responsibility they have."
If there are people qualified to be the CEO of a company and willing to work for 50x employee wage, then if the CEO is making 250x employee wage, then CEO wages are being propped up and we don't have a free market.
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True, but generally speaking, more responsibility = more money.
Running a 30,000 person company is more responsibility than a 3000 person company.
As for qualifications, most of the time it seems that the qualifications are that the board members (or enough shareholders to sway the majority of the board members) like you.
Any other qualifications (aside from whatever is required by the regulatory agency) seem pretty nebulous.
IMO a better comparison would be to compare CEO pay to business income (ie: the CEO of
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Man, sounds like these CEOs with so much complexity to deal with really need to learn about delegation!
Seriously though, if the responsibility scales with the size of the company, so does the staff that the CEO can make use of to handle that responsibility. Which you're conveniently forgetting. That CEO of a company making $30 million might have an executive assistant and some vice presidents, to handle things. The $3 billion company CEO is going to have a whole C-Suite of executives, a whole staff, a Presi
Re: False (Score:2)
What risks ?
Going to the government and request to be bailed out when shit hits the fan, like in the case of SVB ?
Thatâ(TM)s some kind of neoliberal bullshit that weâ(TM)ve been hearing for a while that is not rooted in reality, mate
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stop using these "apps" (Score:5, Insightful)
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There are plenty of restaurants who keep their own delivery drivers on staff granted you may have to *Dread the thought* make a phone call and talk to someone to give them your order.
That phone-ordering process is quite error-prone. Not supporting DoorDash at all, but there is a reason why online ordering is a lot more convenient. And restaurants online order website are usually horrendous and often require you to register. In fact, some of them will direct you to some other intermediary which you haven't even heard of.
Re: stop using these "apps" (Score:2)
Check out the Slice app -- it connects you with local pizza joints who deliver with their own people and Slice just takes a service fee or whatever.
15 Minute Cities (Score:5, Interesting)
I live in one of those fascist 15 minute cities. So I just walk to my local restaurants. Most of whom have cheaper prices on their own menus than on Uber Eats. Not only do I save money by not paying the fees, the taxes that are applied after the fees, and the tip that's applied to that total, but the restaurant makes more money by not paying the Uber Eats tax.
So fascist
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I think a lot of people ignore just how expensive this 'convenience' is. Menu markup and all the assorted fees + tip you usually end up spending twice as much.
Uber über alles (Score:2)
No healthcare. No sick pay. No rights. Uber treats its workers as if they were disposable. Arbeit macht frei!
I support ... (Score:2)
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piece work (Score:3)
Case? (Score:2)
That does not sound like a legal case??? Governments are allowed to enact laws that harm and impoverish their citizens. I don't see how going to court and just claiming "it's a bad idea" is going to accomplish anything.
Sue over minimum wage laws? (Score:2)
What law are they using here to sue? (Score:2)
What law are they suing under?
Not a bad... except for tracking 'online' time (Score:2)
I think it is definitely fair to make sure gig workers get paid at least minimum wage.
However, I don't particularly like the idea of tracking how long they are logged into the app as a measure of their hours worked. I understand it to some level, but that just complicates the situation and is ripe for attempts at playing that system for all parties. Just think of a driver who stays logged in all day, but declines the vast majority of deliveries. Last I checked, they can't force you to take a delivery as yo
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Not sure how it is now but when I did app deliveries you couldn't just log into the system and not do runs. There was a limited number of driver slots and you either did what was available to you or the system kicked you out. You are correct that they can't make you take a run but they can strip away your right to use the app if you don't. That actually started when people would just log in to have a spot in the driver roster first thing in the morning so they could jump in during peak lunch or dinner hours
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Not sure how it is now but when I did app deliveries you couldn't just log into the system and not do runs. There was a limited number of driver slots and you either did what was available to you or the system kicked you out. You are correct that they can't make you take a run but they can strip away your right to use the app if you don't. That actually started when people would just log in to have a spot in the driver roster first thing in the morning so they could jump in during peak lunch or dinner hours to do runs where they wouldn't be able to if they just tried to log in then as the slots would all be full.
Drivers gaming the system? I am SHOCKED, the absolute NERVE of drivers to try to get one over on "the system" and their fellow drivers...
Not really, its about what I would expect, everyone working for their own best interests and the system needing to be tweaked to prevent it being done to the detriment of the people ordering and the other drivers.
Aaron Z
Translation (Score:2)
Translation: If we can't underpay, we'll lose all our customers.
Oh noes not the consumer! (Score:2)
How can we keep competing if we need to charge the consumer a higher fee to cover paying our slaves, ... eerrr. I mean valued members of our corporate family a decent wage!
Don't you understand this is America and my business has a RIGHT to exist at all costs! /s
Re: Oh noes not the consumer! (Score:2)
"Businesses are people my friend"