Canadian Judge Says Thumbs-Up Emoji Amounts To Contract Acceptance (theglobeandmail.com) 141
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Globe and Mail: A Saskatchewan judge says an emoji can amount to a contractual agreement and ordered a farmer to pay more than $82,000 for not delivering product to a grain buyer after responding to a text message with a thumbs-up image. The Court of King's Bench decision said a grain buyer with South West Terminal sent a text to farmers in March 2021 saying that the company was looking to buy 86 tons of flax for $17 per bushel to be delivered in the fall. The buyer, Kent Mickleborough, later spoke with Swift Current farmer Chris Achter on the phone and texted a picture of a contract to deliver the flax in November, adding "please confirm flax contract." Achter texted back a thumbs-up emoji. But when November came around, the flax was not delivered and prices for the crop had increased.
Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order. But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message. "I deny that he accepted the thumbs-up emoji as a digital signature of the incomplete contract," Achter said in an affidavit to court. "I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message."
Justice Timothy Keene said in his June decision that the thumbs-up emoji did meet signature requirements and therefore the farmer breached his contract. The judge pointed to a Dictionary.com definition of the thumbs-up emoji, which said it is used to express assent, approval or encouragement in digital communications. "This court readily acknowledges that a (thumbs-up) emoji is a non-traditional means to `sign' a document but nevertheless under these circumstances this was a valid way to convey the two purposes of a `signature,"' Keene wrote in his decision. Keene's decision noted the case is novel, but the judge said emojis are now commonly used.
Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order. But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message. "I deny that he accepted the thumbs-up emoji as a digital signature of the incomplete contract," Achter said in an affidavit to court. "I did not have time to review the Flax Contract and merely wanted to indicate that I did receive his text message."
Justice Timothy Keene said in his June decision that the thumbs-up emoji did meet signature requirements and therefore the farmer breached his contract. The judge pointed to a Dictionary.com definition of the thumbs-up emoji, which said it is used to express assent, approval or encouragement in digital communications. "This court readily acknowledges that a (thumbs-up) emoji is a non-traditional means to `sign' a document but nevertheless under these circumstances this was a valid way to convey the two purposes of a `signature,"' Keene wrote in his decision. Keene's decision noted the case is novel, but the judge said emojis are now commonly used.
Great! (Score:5, Funny)
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He makes a valid point (Score:5, Insightful)
But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message.
The buyer should have made sure that the farmer had agreed to the contract terms. A 'thumbs up' is pretty vague as a signature, especially when his text was "please confirm flax contract." People need to learn to text complete sentences. 'Confirm' in this case doesn't say whether he is asking if he is accepting the contract, or if he had received the contract.
Re:He makes a valid point (Score:4, Insightful)
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Thumbs-up does carry meaning of agreement, validation, positiveness on the statement, it is not replacement for alternative response, like "thanks", addressing act of sending. There is another thing to this story: there was never further communication carrying decline, denial, or negotiation for alternate price. ONLY thumbs-up means ONLY validation in expression, nothing otherwise.
Finally, it is with the change of situation, that one party enters dispute and plays different claim. With accepting offer many
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Respect to the judge on fair treatment.
Agreed. If a handshake can be a contract, then a thumbs up can be accepted as a signature. I see this as similar to a gentleman's agreement that has been upheld in many other courts.
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Respect to the judge on fair treatment.
Agreed. If a handshake can be a contract, then a thumbs up can be accepted as a signature. I see this as similar to a gentleman's agreement that has been upheld in many other courts.
It would help if you could cite some examples from those "courts" you speak of. Preferably some examples newer than the 19th century, back when mere handshakes would absolve you and your company of lawsuits due to the utter lack of blood-sucking lawyers.
We don't have that shortage today.
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It probably took you longer to craft that rebuttal than it would have to Google the answer yourself. Short answer - Yes, a handshake or verbal contract can be legally binding, depending on the circumstances. The devil is always in the details.
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
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Thumbs-up does carry meaning of agreement, validation, positiveness on the statement, it is not replacement for alternative response, like "thanks", addressing act of sending.
It's also not a replacement for a signature on a valid contract.
For reference, see all of contract history.
Judge is a fucking moron who should be fired with a thumbs-down emoji just to prove the point.
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there was never further communication carrying decline, denial, or negotiation for alternate price. ONLY thumbs-up means ONLY validation in expression, nothing otherwise.
I've interacted with plenty of companies where I received an initial reply along the lines of 'thanks for sending the message, we'll be in touch soon', and then never ever heard another word from them.
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I've interacted with plenty of companies where I received an initial reply along the lines of 'thanks for sending the message, we'll be in touch soon', and then never ever heard another word from them.
Is there a chance you've had series of annual contracts before with any of them? Specific situation shows, it has been routine act, therefore lax of communication was pretty acceptable.
attorney: very much not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
I am an attorney, but probably not in your jurisdiction. This is not legal advice. If you want legal advice, pay my retainer first!
It's hardly a surprising ruling, nor any kind of breakthrough or change. In fact, it would be surprising if something like this *didn't* happen.'
It is *ancient* Common Law, long preceding the US/british split, that an offer can be accepted by an acceptance in the same medium. Offer by mail, it may be accepted by mail. offer by telegram, and it may be accepted by telegram. etc.
So an offer by text message can be accepted by text message.
The question isn't whether a text *can* bind, but what the *meaning* of a text is, as commonly used.
So if the thumbs up is generally accepted as agreement, then this should indeed be binding. If it merely means "received", then it should not be.
And if there is no general agreement on meaning, then it shouldn't be an acceptance.
Whichever it is, though, the standard is objective, not subjective (whatever the sender thought it meant inside his head).
hawk, esq
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oh, and if prices had moved the other way, do you really think that the *farmer* wouldn't be maintaining that it's a contract?
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You can argue that the farmer agreed to confirm the contract without confirming it. Yes I will confirm it isn't the same as yes, I confirm it. Especially if he can show that the way he confirmed it in the past is by written text saying 'confirmed' or sending back a PDF of a signed document. If I ask someone to do something in a text and they send me a thumbs up, I personally take that as yes, I will do that thing, not that it is complete. Based on what is presented, the judge is a knob. But we don't know th
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Especially if he can show that the way he confirmed it in the past is by written text saying 'confirmed' or sending back a PDF of a signed document.
The article allude to previous 'confirmations' by text, but it didn't make clear how those previous contracts were confirmed. If only journalists weren't lazy...
Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order.
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> Mickleborough said the emoji amounted to an agreement because he had texted numerous contracts to Achter, who previously confirmed through text message and always fulfilled the order.
But that doesn't say he previously used the thumbs up to accept a contract. He may have instead texted "Contract accepted" or something similar. Which one isn't clear, IANAL but those words and a thumbs up don't seem the same.
What I'd really like to know is exactly what the buyer wrote previous times and exactly how the se
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So if the thumbs up is generally accepted as agreement, then this should indeed be binding. If it merely means "received", then it should not be.
And if I happen to respond with a middle finger, tell me. Is that more of a "Fuck Yeah!" response of acceptance...or more of a "Fuck No!" answer of denial?
There's more than one reason we hairless apes aren't still sitting in caves painting on walls to communicate. You already know what legal precedent means with this. I expect support on this will mean the utter destruction of every e-signature service in existence today too.
Stupid is stupid, and if "ancient" law still stands, the world needs about 90% l
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It is *ancient* Common Law....
Isn't is also ancient common law that an acceptance by a person must have also actually been by that person? What if I left my phone lying around with the text app open, and my cat walked across it which ended up sending a thumbs up emoji? Can my cat accept a contract on my behalf? I don't think so.
The farmer should have simply blamed the emoji on a household pet, and nullified the contract. And since there was no further clarification of intent from either party, no one could have argued otherwise. The sam
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the same could be asked about acceptance by telegram. Or mail, for that matter.
if you conduct business by text message, you should *really* keep it cat proof.
and for a cat to unlock the phone, and choose a particular emoji kind of stretches credulity.
[nothing I've written should be taken to suggest that I think business by text is a good idea. I categorically refuse to accept texts from clients, or even give out my cell number]
I agree... (Score:2)
The buyer should have made sure that the farmer had agreed to the contract terms. A 'thumbs up' is pretty vague as a signature, especially when his text was "please confirm flax contract."
I agree with this assessment, common use of thumbs up is to say "I understand what you have said" but that statement does not say if they are confirming receipt of, or agreement to the contract...
Since there is ambiguity, it sure seems like default interpretation should not be "Yes I agree to sign the contract you just sen
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But the farmer argued that the emoji indicated only that he'd received the contract in the text message.
The buyer should have made sure that the farmer had agreed to the contract terms. A 'thumbs up' is pretty vague as a signature, especially when his text was "please confirm flax contract." People need to learn to text complete sentences. 'Confirm' in this case doesn't say whether he is asking if he is accepting the contract, or if he had received the contract.
At the same time, though, the farmer's method of accepting contracts appeared to be a little loosey-goosey, at least from the limited information we have available about the case. It would make more sense to me for a seller to have a more standard way of accepting contracts. It would be much more clear from a legal perspective if instead contracts were placed on a document signing site and both parties have to electronically sign it. This removes any ambiguity.
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in lieu of OK all the time since we can't use the former emoji because apparently it was repurposed to mean "white power".
Seriously, it's OK to use it. Just because a few nut-jobs use it for some random 'white-power' thing doesn't invalidate it for everyday use.
Boomer inanity (Score:3)
Who has not simply confirmed receipt of an item with an emoji?
This is inane, and goes to show that whoever the judge was does not understand how people communicate over digital medium.
Personally, I would suggest that the seller's pattern of signing contracts, not responding to receipt of the contract with an emoji, should be the indicator to focus on here.
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Who has not simply confirmed receipt of an item with an emoji?
Well, me for one. If I use it at all, a thumb's up emoji typically indicates agreement or approval - I'd never think of it as meaning "I received the item".
Not that I agree with the judge's ruling, though.
Re: Boomer inanity (Score:2)
This thread is actually very interesting to me. Thereâ(TM)s two distinct groups of people with two entirely different concepts of what this emoji means, who seem until now wholly unaware of the othersâ(TM) existence. For me at least, thumbs up means âoeyes/confirmedâ, not âoeI have received it, and will look laterâ. I wonder how many people Iâ(TM)ve miscommunicated with though.
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If I asked you "please check that you are capable of doing this" and you replied with a thumbs up, does that mean you are capable of doing it, or that you will check if you are capable of doing it?
the way I see it, someone asked someone else to do a task, and that someone else agreed to do that task at some point in the future. In this case, I'd have to disagree with the judge. The thumbs up was too ambiguous, and not equivalent to say, a handshake.
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If I asked you "please check that you are capable of doing this" and you replied with a thumbs up, does that mean you are capable of doing it, or that you will check if you are capable of doing it?
Easy, just as with the original, without any further communication, the emoji means you are capable of doing it. If you are trying to communicate the latter, you would need additional follow-ups since it still implies that you will do *something* later. This farmer, and his attorney, are stupid as fuck. In fact, his entire defense is "I saw and confirmed receipt of your order and then willfully did absolutely nothing."
Handshakes don't mean anything special in business, and it is weird how many people think
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This is an agricultural contract; most people here have zero experience in that area. Verbal contracts and orders in these types of circumstances are usually legally binding. You are right that this is not typcial of the contract law you are likely familiar with, but in agriculture this is a pretty obvious outcome. It probably wouldn't even be newsworthy if it weren't for the emoji slant.
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If anyone does not understand how people communicate over digital mediums, it's literally the farmer (Chris Achter) and you. This entire take is almost as stupid as the "signatures are your name in cursive" crowd (hint: they aren't).
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Who has not simply confirmed receipt of an item with an emoji?
Most people, a thumbs up is generally understood to not just signal receipt, but approval.
This is inane, and goes to show that whoever the judge was does not understand how people communicate over digital medium.
Personally, I would suggest that the seller's pattern of signing contracts, not responding to receipt of the contract with an emoji, should be the indicator to focus on here.
And that's exactly what happened here.
The seller had established a pattern of responding with the "thumbs up" to proposed contracts and then fulfilling the contract with no further response, it's only when the price went up on this one that they backed out. I can understand why the buyer understood the thumbs up to mean an agreement. Whether the seller also understood the gesture as such is hard to say, perhaps he figu
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Personally, I would suggest that the seller's pattern of signing contracts, not responding to receipt of the contract with an emoji, should be the indicator to focus on here.
The article is not clear on that, but the seller has apparently confirmed a contract via text message before. This article has more detail;
https://www.canadianlawyermag.... [canadianlawyermag.com]
It seems typing "yup" has constituted a contract between the parties previously. It is hard not to consider the thumbs up emoji equivalent to "yup".
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Which emoji means message received, will consider later?
Or even an emoji meaning thinking about it?
Morse code has dot dash dot, ASCII has ACK.
OK is just as vague as a thumbs up.
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This is inane, and goes to show that whoever the judge was does not understand how people communicate over digital medium.
And the fact that the judge didn't understand it shows that the communication process was unclear. The fact that it got to the judge in the first place showed that more than one person had this interpretation.
You're right, using an emoji should be the focus here. No doubt the losing party won't ever use one, or accept one without confirmation again.
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The basic problem: letting septuagenarian/octagenarian senile judges who think you get "the internets" by the hour on dialup, remain on the bench.
Well, this isn't an American judge, so try again.
Context (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article: "Achterâ(TM)s lawyers argued that allowing an emoji to act as a signature or acceptance for contracts would open the flood gates for cases interpreting the meaning of the images."
Context is what matters.
You can also text "yes" instead. But what was the QUESTION? If the question was vague, then the answer is equally vague.
"The buyer, Kent Mickleborough, later spoke with Swift Current farmer Chris Achter on the phone and texted a picture of a contract to deliver the flax in November, adding âoeplease confirm flax contract."
Yep- vague. "please confirm contract" doesn't jibe with any legal text I have ever seen. Confirm what? That you think it is fair? That you saw got it? That you read it? That you agree to it? Had he said "do you agree to the terms of this contract?" and the other party sent a thumbs-up, that does seem to be an agreement made.
Both parties in this exchange were sloppy.
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None of this seems particularly complicated. Hard to litigate effectively, sure. But remember, there is such a thing as an oral contract. If it's a business arrangement (meaning I offer you goods and/or services in exchange for "consideration") and I say I am going to do something, no matter how I acknowledge that, you have a right to expect me to do what I said I was going to do.
Of course, relying on oral contracts is a notoriously bad idea. But they do exist.
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And you are probably in trouble in some way if several months then go by with zero follow up.
Re:Context (Score:4, Interesting)
> Both parties in this exchange were sloppy.
Orders in agriculture are typically made this way, and they do have the legal force of a binding contract, even though they are normally verbal agreements. Tech people discussing ag law are way over their skis.
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I don't think people are disputing that an informal contract is binding. If that's the norm in this context then fine. I think there is some dissention if thumbs up means "I agree to accept the terms stipulated in the contract in the message" or "thanks, I'll review later and get back to you".
I think the fact that there is so much dissent indicates the judge made a bad call. Even in an informal setting, deriving anything other than vague positive sentiment from a thumbs up emoji is going too far.
Eh (Score:5, Funny)
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Is there a "Molson's" emoji?
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yes, it's the puke one
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It's only binding in Canada if he included the "eh" after the thumbs up.
Shouldn't there be a specific emoji for this? Like a thumb wearing a toque or something?
I mean what the fuck, eh...
This takes a step towards a theory I had (Score:2)
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I've long postulated that emoji will become an internationally recognized language in its own right
Kind of like in Snow Crash.
Hike (Score:2)
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Only in the context that you are currently on the side of the road and continuously holding it out, which is clearly not applicable here.
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Thumb pointed in the direction you wish to go is the hitchhiking signal, unless you are waiting for a helicopter.
Context does matter though, if I see someone one the side of a road with a thumb up I would guess that he/she was looking for a ride, but it could also mean they like my car/bike.
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Did he actually object? (Score:2)
SO he claims he used it to say he received the contract. But did he follow up on the contract at all? Did he respond later saying he had issues with the contract or did not agree with the terms? If not, the assumption that the thumbs up meant he accepted the contract seems absolutely reasonable. If there was further conversation about the contract, I would agree with the farmer. But if no further conversation happened, sorry, you agreed to it.
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What if instead of thumbs up he replied with "I'll review and get back to you later"? What if he never followed up then? If the initial response could be interpreted either way, then so can the lack of follow up.
It's equally probable that the thumbs up just meant "thanks" and then he forgot about it or ghosted the buyer.
Agricultrual Contracts (Score:2)
Probably nobody will see this, but the fact that this is an agricultural contract is extremely relevant to this decision.
In agriculture there is a long history of using verbal contracts and a host of laws and legal precedent in place to support the use of such. It is not at all wise to extrapolate any decision made here onto normal contract law. I would consider this decision an expected outcome, and I believe the same conclusion would have been reached in the US system.
Very strange stuff (Score:3)
All the grain contracts I've ever done and dealt with involved either a real signature (scanned and e-mailed, or in person), or a special website that I have to log into (to prove some semblance of authority to sign) and make a definitive action that indicates I am accepting the contract. So how this grain buyer could create a contract without that kind of signature is a puzzlement to me. Although apparently this was done in the past. Not an outfit I'd like to deal with that's for sure.
Non story here (Score:2)
The issue is that the thumbs up indicator had previously been used to indicate agreement of the contract. Even if it was the poop emoji that had been used as an indicator before, it doesn’t matter. Hopefully other idiot judges dont use the headline as precedent though.
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Hopefully other idiot judges dont use the headline as precedent though.
Considering that every other judge is human and every human has the capability of being a moron at times, try not to do that human thing here and assume.
Hopefully my ass.
Would have been cheaper to buy it out (Score:5, Insightful)
Hindsight is always 20/20 of course.
But there are a number of things a farmer can do to mitigate things. Nearly all agricultural contracts have a clause to allow the farmer to buy out the contract. It's very common to forward sell production and when come up short due to weather and other factors. Usually it involves a modest fee, plus the difference in the price if the market moved against the farmer.
On several occasions I've had to buy out a load or two when I came up short compared to my projections. Sometimes if the price was good I can get a neighbor to cover a load, which they are often glad to do in that situation. And the earlier the shortage is discovered, the easier it is to buy out or find replacement.
And sometimes there is a short grace period after a contract is signed. Most buyers I've dealt with will try hard to get the contract voided if I needed to get out and it's only been a few hours. But once the contract goes up the line and the futures hedges are purchased, then you're locked in, except for the buy out clause.
Thumbs up reaction = ACK (Score:2)
If they’re talking about a “tapback” or “reaction” thumbs up emoji (as opposed to a standalone message that is comprised entirely of a thumbs up emoji), I’d argue that the overwhelming use is simply as an ACK that the message was received and that the recipient has accepted the onus for an obvious next step. Doesn’t mean a contract was signed, nor does prior completion of contracts after a thumbs up mean that those previous ones were anything more than ACKs either.
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If the question was "do you accept the contract?" and they texted back a thumbs up separately, sure, but that doesn't sound like what this is.
Tell me again how we're going to allow and accept a thumbs up emoji response as legal acceptance.
I'll make certain to code my interface so that you do that shit on accident. Multiple times a day.
For fucks sake and profit, of course.
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Tell me again how we're going to allow and accept a thumbs up emoji response as legal acceptance.
I'd actually suggest the onus is on you to explain why that wouldn't be the case. After all, verbal agreements are legally binding [upcounsel.com] despite being even more ephemeral than a thumbs up emoji. You may not be able to enforce them as easily, hence why significant deals tend to be written, but unwritten agreements/contracts are incredibly common and widespread. I'd even wager that you've entered some in the last month. A few examples...
1) Did you pay for your food before you ordered? If not, how well do you think
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FFS, it's 2023.
The restaurant order you speak of, was agreed in writing via the food delivery app you tied your credit/debit card to.
The toll road I took was because I agreed in writing to pay those tolls via the electronic pass I have tied to my account.
The repair guy only showed up after you electronically signed a written agreement via the app you called them on.
You seem to overlook how most business is done these days. And you already made my point for me. Any agreement of significant value, is put in
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FFS, it's 2023.
Sure, but you know as well as I do that we didn't throw out our existing laws when we started using smartphones, biometrics, NFC, apps, etc.. None of your twists on my examples contradict the point I was making with my examples: we enter legally binding contracts all the time without ever actually signing anything.
You seem to overlook how most business is done these days.
To the contrary, as the one who is arguing that emoji are part of business communication, I'd suggest that you're the one who's overlooking how business is done. We let our clients set the tone a
Not clear enough (Score:2)
This is the wrong judgement.
A single emoji is not clear enough to establish intent to sign a contract.
Without the due diligence expected from the other party to confirm that this one character response did indeed indicate acceptance of the contract, I don't believe intent to sign is established. I would say that lack of the due diligence of the other party means the contract was never agreed to by both parties.
Even if it meant agreement with the contract, it is not a substitute for a formal contract and ac
I'm not your buddy, Buddy. (Score:2)
Wouldn't work at all as precedent. (Score:2)
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Tell me you don't understand contract law without saying you don't understand contract law.
If I say 'so you'll give me twenty bucks for this shiny object' and you say 'ok,' that's a contract. Offer (my shiny object) for consideration (twenty bucks) and verbal agreement.
A thumbs-up emoji is the text equivalent of 'OK.'
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Not only is "ok" not sufficient (it can just mean acknowledgement of the offer), but it's light-years more explicit than a thumbs up. And someone who has argued anything ever would understand the concept of a slippery slope: How about a smiley emoji? How about a sunglasses emoji? How about no reply at all, since some people have claimed that silence is assent?
Get a GED a
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Why adult people expect that what they say/write/communicate cannot be taken seriously is beyond me. Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do. Obviously, in informal contracts, informal acceptance is valid.
*thumbs up*
Here, that means I read your comment, and I understand your passion. I just think you're utterly incorrect, and your "obvious" points are obviously wrong.
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A judge disagrees with you. Think you are more competent on the question?
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On the law? No. On what you wrote, and how a text "thumbs-up" /should/ be interpreted? Yes, of course.
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Well, good luck with ignoring contract law then...
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What you seem to be missing is you're thinking in terms of the 'gold standard' of contract law, which is notarized signatures. But, these have never been required in the US or anywhere else. They're just used to make sure that people can't weasel out of shit with a good lawyer. That vast majority of business is conducted in an 'informal' manner. Agreements made with handshakes, verbal agreements, text messages, hell, even smoke signals would be perfectly legal if both parties were using them. What the
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The courts know how to deal with narcissists. They also know each other when they see each other. The rest of us are marks.
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Indeed. Apparently a lot of people do not understand how an informal contract works at all, judging from all the disconnected comments. The fact of the matter is if the communication was reasonably clear, you have a contract. There are limits on what you can agree to and there may be problems in proving later that there was a contract agreement, but aside from that, completely verbal agreements with no written record are valid contracts.
Incidentally, at least in Europe, there are some types contracts that n
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I think a lot of judges don't know what the fuck they are talking about when they are ruling on things outside of their domain knowledge. They are just too arrogant to admit it. Patent cases for example. Having a law degree doesn't elevate them to some new realm of intelligence unavailable to the common man.
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This was about contract law and whether something was equivalent to "yes". Think that is outside of the domain knowledge of that judge?
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A judge disagrees with you. Think you are more competent on the question?
You should remember a judge is human, and therefore can be a fucking moron at times too, just like every other human.
Titles don't imply otherwise, you fucking human.
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This was a judgment of whether a specific communication amounts to "yes". Not a difficult question at all. Also not controversial in the case at hand. Exceptionally little room for the judge to be a "fucking moron".
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And therein lies the problem, because you have two interpretations of the emoji. Obviously there are people (like
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I don't know when thumbs up started to mean "OK I read it, will follow up later" and nothing else.
Probably about the same time the OK gesture got re-interpreted as a hate symbol.
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In this particular case, I would say that the previous communication between the parties (regarding this contract) and the history of their prior business relationship is far more relevant than the meaning of the emoji.
They have done business before. They spoke on the phone about this deal. The image of the contract was sent as a "confirmation of what was discussed previously" message. It was acknowledged that it was received. No follow up disputing the "hey this is what we agreed to on the phone" messa
Re: Makes sense (Score:2)
The disconnect is that a judge has declared that a person said something they never said, and never intended to say.
That's pretty terrifying.
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Why adult people expect that what they say/write/communicate cannot be taken seriously is beyond me. Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do. Obviously, in informal contracts, informal acceptance is valid.
*thumbs up*
Here, that means I read your comment, and I understand your passion. I just think you're utterly incorrect, and your "obvious" points are obviously wrong.
The only thing that is *obvious* here, is why hairless apes aren't still painting on cave walls with pictures to communicate with each other.
*thumbs up* can mean a lot of different shit in different cultures all around the world. This is why we speak with fucking words now.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do.
There are cultures where the thumbs up gesture is obscene, essentially meaning "up your bum".
Re:Makes sense (Score:4, Insightful)
Obviously a naked "thumbs up" is clearly an OK/Yes/Go ahead/will do.
There are cultures where the thumbs up gesture is obscene, essentially meaning "up your bum".
But is this the case in Canada? No? Then it doesn't apply.
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Indeed. The person above you is just being an asshole. And he knows it.
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But is this the case in Canada? No? Then it doesn't apply.
It depends. What are the cultural heritages of the two parties involved?
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It depends. What are the cultural heritages of the two parties involved?
No it doesn't. The legal system does not consider the cases of individuals in rulings like this, it considers the case of generalities, what would a "reasonable person" expect the communication to mean.
The reasonable person test is a foundation of common law.
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But is this the case in Canada? No?
Thank goodness Canada is a white, Northern European culture with no knowledge of or sensitivity to any other people's norms.
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Completely irrelevant and no one cares.
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President Bush senior kinda stepped in it back in 1992 when he didn't know Australia had this radically different interpretation of the thumbs up, IIRC he gave a real big one out to the crowd just as he was stepping onto Air Force One to leave at the end of a diplomatic trip and got quite the shock at the reaction he got. I don't know if that's still how its generally interpreted down under these days, a lot can change in ~30 years but it was certainly a thing back then.
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Greece, some Middle Eastern countries, parts of Africa. To name a few.
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Why adult people expect that what they say/write/communicate cannot be taken seriously is beyond me.
Eh... are you sure you're not just misframing the issue, or complaint at hand?
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And you are asking this why? Are _you_ sure you are not just being disingenuous?
Spoken contracts are valid for a lot of things (usually hard to prove things though). So are written informal ones. Get over yourself.
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Every day in slack, we use thumbs up as "ok, sounds good", thanks, or ACK. If I respond to a contract with "ok sounds good" or thanks, that does not mean acceptance. It just means thanks for sending it along, I've seen and acknowledged your message. I would barely accept a thumbs up for a case handoff, never mind a formal contract unless I worded the message very specifically.
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