Airbnb Sues NYC Over Limits On Short-Term Rentals (nytimes.com) 88
Airbnb has sued New York City in an attempt to overturn strict new regulations that restrict short-term rentals, claiming that the rules are "extreme and oppressive." The New York Times reports: A new law, passed by the city in 2021, sought to prevent illegal short-term rentals by requiring hosts to register with the city. Short-term rentals -- for fewer than 30 consecutive days -- have largely been barred if hosts are not present, according to state law, though the city and Airbnb have disagreed about how expansive such prohibitions and other complicated city codes should be. The city said it would start enforcing the law in July.
In the lawsuit filed on Thursday, Airbnb called the new scheme "extreme and oppressive" and said it clashes with a federal law that has shielded many tech platforms from liability for content posted by its users. Three Airbnb hosts also filed similar lawsuits, arguing that the rules were so complicated that nearly all hosts, even those who intended to be present when guests were around, would be unable to use the platform. The city said it was reviewing the lawsuit. "This administration is committed to protecting safety and community livability for residents, preserving permanent housing stock, and ensuring our hospitality sector can continue to recover and thrive," Jonah Allon, a spokesman for the mayor, said in a statement.
In the lawsuit filed on Thursday, Airbnb called the new scheme "extreme and oppressive" and said it clashes with a federal law that has shielded many tech platforms from liability for content posted by its users. Three Airbnb hosts also filed similar lawsuits, arguing that the rules were so complicated that nearly all hosts, even those who intended to be present when guests were around, would be unable to use the platform. The city said it was reviewing the lawsuit. "This administration is committed to protecting safety and community livability for residents, preserving permanent housing stock, and ensuring our hospitality sector can continue to recover and thrive," Jonah Allon, a spokesman for the mayor, said in a statement.
Re:If you own the property (Score:5, Insightful)
The city certainly has an interest in preserving housing for actual residents and controlling where and how hotels are operated.
Fee Simple (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
It's only "formal and protected ownership" for so long as that goverment who granted it to you exists and allows it. The next invading army might disagree that you "own" the place.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:If you own the property (Score:5, Insightful)
You should be able to lease it out to whomever you want
It isn't so cut and dry. Airbnb and similar business models leads directly to purchasing of available real estate by investors, who a lot of the time aren't even domestic, artificially inflating the cost of housing out of the reach of the common peoples.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
We can do those things too and the ever historically oppressed two home owners can do what they did before 2010 and just rent it out as a home to someone.
Re:If you own the property (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
You really drew a lot of unfounded motivation out of those mere 31 words I said. Not only do you make some pretty unfounded and incorrent assumptions about my position on this issue you gish gallops to several other points I did not make. I guess it's easy to own an argument against a caricature in your own head.
Also as a courtesy to the rest of us, break that into like 3 or 4 paragraphs.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Sniff sniff, that's a bit o' projection there.
Here, I'll sum up my position so it's clear of which almost none of your response understood.
People who own two homes are already in the higher percentiles of the economy. A restriction on vacation rentals is not what I would consider an undue burden as their second property can continue to be leveraged for income through standard renting.
The only reason to do one versus the other is rate of return, they want more money. Nobody has a right to maximal possible
Re: (Score:1)
Sniff sniff, that's a bit o' projection there.
Cry harder. Whine more. I'm loving it.
Nobody has a right to maximal possible profit at all times.
....and now the truth comes out. You're simply jealous. You hate that someone somewhere is making more money than you think they should. You don't come at the problem of noise, parking, uneven application of the hotel restrictions, or any of the issues that might affect the neighbors or someone with standing. Rather, it seems you are thinking of that sweet cash they are making. Did you sell a home too soon in a hot AirB&B market? Are you just a jealous loser bitch?
I never brought up mortgages, Blackstone, the Fed, or other libertarian notions.
B
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't write a rambling screed, i'll be fine.
You're simply jealous.
If that's what you're assuming then, sure, go ahead and think that. I can see where your skills of deduction take you. Nobody can take a nuanced take on econimic incentives and regulation without being a jealous baby right? I can have a position on all those elements, parking, noise, etc, but that doesnt matter because you're a free market boy and the rest of us are just jealous. Really blowing apart those libertarian stereotypes.
Relevant? Sure, in some broa
Re: (Score:1)
I can see you have a lot invested in this emotionally.
*YAWN*
Re: (Score:2)
The neighbors have a (usually legal) right to "peaceful enjoyment" of their property. However, property owners should have the widest latitude possible to use their property as they see fit as long as it's not hurting folks or externalizing costs onto them.
Agreed, but turning regular living space into hotels does, in fact, hurt folks and externalize the costs because these mini-hotels are businesses not subject to the same level of taxation as real businesses. Not to mention that purchasing investment property artificially increases the value of the property.
Re: (Score:1)
Just like the situation
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
The sad fact of the case is that people's incomes have not kept up with apartment rentals in some of the large cities, like NYC. Rents are going up because of owners gouging renters and a little because taxes are going up constantly. Case in point. My daughter rents one flat of a house, shared by 2 others, just outside Chicag
Re: (Score:3)
They are aided by the anti-housing people (NIMBYs) who weaponize zoning laws to prevent the market from solving the housing crisis. It's all the same rent-seeking behavior, [nationalpost.com] for which land speculators are thankful. [youtube.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder how many people posting all the things they "know" about NYC even live there. I do and am still in favor of leaving AirBnB alone (well, the hosts...AirBnB itself can fk off) for private individuals. Corporations I'm happy to shut down.
With that said, whole-unit AirBnB's are fairly common - particularly in nicer and/or trendy neighborhoods. This absolutely takes apartments off the market with the bulk occurring in desirable areas which already have limited supply...basic maths with supply vs. dem
Re:If you own the property (Score:5, Insightful)
So you want to run a motel but without all the pesky regulations and public safety codes? Tell me more.
Re: (Score:1)
Is renting your property for longer than 30 days any different than renting it for less than 30 days? Does the "public safety codes" all of a sudden go away because of the 30 day cut off? No. The safety standards are there and are typed to the building/residence, all of which the property owner would have to abide by whether s/he lives in there herself/himself, or is having someone else stay there. Or are you alluding that because hotels must have sprinkle
Re: (Score:2)
Landlords are also subject to local laws and health codes.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It's not a stretch to imagine (and I think I've read social psych studies that demonstrate this, though it's so long ago I can't recall specifics) that people treat the places they "live" in differently from the places they are "visiting". This is just human nature.
(using "you" as a generic pronoun because it reads more smoothly than "one" or "that person")
If you "live" in an apartment, you don't tend to litter the hallways, because you have to see the trash yourself every day (until someone cleans it up).
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
You might want to take a basic English course.
Re: If you own the property (Score:3)
Your statement clearly shows why AirBnB should be banned. You have the mentality of a pimp.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd be in favor of imposing regulation and public safety codes on AirBNB, but they would have to be actual substantive rules and they would have to apply objectively & uniformly.
So, for example, a rule like "you can't rent for less than 30 days" isn't a substantive public safety rule -- it doesn't make a building more safe to offer a 6 month lease and the length of the lease is orthogonal to the safety of the building. By contrast, you can have a rule like "rentals require a compliant smoke & CO det
Re:If you own the property (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are renting out you obviously don't give a fuck about your neighbors.
Re: (Score:3)
If you want to treat your house like an apartment or business then you get to be treated like a for-profit landlord with all the regulations that entails.
Obviously owners would have to declare their income from the property on their taxes. Why do you care if it's an individual or a corporation behind it? And what regulation (non-financial) is there that a property owner would have to follow if renting the property as opposed to living in it? Is the regulation for safety? Because, if it is for safety, then it should apply to the owner as well as renters.
Re: (Score:2)
What's good for the goose....
Then remove all the rules and regulations governing hotels, clubs and business in general. The tax for a business should be the same as the tax for residential. Why even zone commercial, residential, industrial?.... What do you care if it's individual or a corporation?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes. You're generally able to live in some level of squalor on your property if you like, but landlords are required to ensure property meets some standard of habitability. They are typically responsible for pest control, etc. In my part of New England they are also required to ensure the heating system is functional. If heating is included in rent, not only must it be functional, it must maintain specified minimum temperatures from later fall through spring.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Your argument seems to rest on the notion that the customers have no choice or agency in the matter, which is patently absurd. You don't think they'll complain? You don't think they'll demand their money back or accommodation elsewhere? How little must you think of everyone else if you can believe such nonsense?
Re: (Score:2)
The parent asked for examples of non-politically motivated safety regulations landlords might be subjected to which owner-occupants are not and I provided some. No claims were made about the state of units listed on AirBnB.
No you shouldn't (Score:5, Insightful)
The city absolutely has business getting in the middle of that. And if you want to talk safety, go look up how many times a party ends in a shooting.
Re: (Score:2)
Zoning exists for a reason.
What's funny is there are people on here who just the other day were saying cities need to rezone so there is more housing available, and here we are with people saying it's no big deal if someone "rents" out their own house.
It would be nice if people could stop talking out of both sides of their mouthh.
Re: (Score:2)
They want more *permanent* housing, not daily rentals. You are the one "talking out of both sides of their mouth".
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Having people coming and going and partying all hours of the night isn't fair to people who just live there.
Of course it is not, but I believe you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. Clearly there have been instances you hear about of rowdy parties, but then again, you would normally only hear about "problems", and not about all the other instances that everything went smoothly. I have stayed at many, many AirBnB and private rentals throughout the world and have never "partied" in any of them. And I bet over 99% of people staying in AirBnB are just like me: they want a private, personal space that's reaso
Re: (Score:3)
Which land use restrictions (zoning) prevents. [forbes.com]
If large corporations smelled money (Score:2)
Seriously I remember a commercial. It was a bunch of old people sitting around a table talking about something scary. At del point in time did they
Re: (Score:2)
Are you talking about the mortgage interest deduction? Why does it no longer make houses affordable?
Re: (Score:2)
Mortgage interest deduction is capped at 10k now. the SALT thing that was part of the 2018 corporate tax reduction law that was passed.
Re: (Score:2)
Unfortunately, flophouse landlords ruined it for everyone back in the 1930s.
Re: (Score:1)
Zoning laws exist for a reason.
Zone defense (Score:2)
Zoning laws exist for a reason.
Preventing a chemical plant next to a kindergarten? Sure.
Mandating that certain people sleep here and other people sleep over there? C'mon. The NYC hotel industry has long lobbied for restrictions on AirBNB listings because it drives more customers their way. The hotels have paid the price to jump through the city's regulations, and now they're defending against new market entrants. See: "regulatory capture".
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You should be able to lease it out to whomever you want. The City has an interest in the safety of your neighbors, so building codes and their need is understood, but other than that, you should be able to rent out whatever you want to whomever you want, and the city has no business getting in the middle of that. There is no safety concern there.
The city has many reasonable interests in regulating short-term rentals. Safety is just one interest. Others include traffic and parking, noise levels, occupancy levels, development of neighborhood communities, tax collection, as well as other considerations related to zoning. The government restrictions should ideally be set at the minimal level to achieve government interests. However, the local government can and should take the interests of neighbors, the neighborhood, and the city into consideratio
Re: (Score:2)
Depending on what scum of the earth you might lease to for the weekend, it can be a safety issue. Also a nuisance issue if you lease to loud partiers who don't care who they piss off because they don't have to live with any of them as neighbors when the party is over.
This is compounded by people who buy extra houses to lease out full time a few days at a time.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The problem with Airbnb in NYC is not that the city won't let people rent their homes. It's that they want people who rent their homes, to pay hotel taxes. Many businesses have exploited this loophole to set up hotels that are hotels in every way, except that they offer reservations through Airbnb. All the while, they dodge the hotel taxes they should be paying, just like every other hotel does.
Re:If you own the proper (Score:2)
There is no safety concern there.
The fuck there is not. People who wonâ(TM)t ever see you again after tomorrow wonâ(TM)t hesitate to drunkenly paw at your door at 3am because they forgot their unit number, loudly party all night, or wake your kids up by loudly fucking like a pair of minxes ⦠again.
See, when you come to the big city on vacation, you have not yet learned how to live in a high-density building without impacting those around you. When you loudly scream while busting a nut
Re: (Score:2)
However, if you're essentially operating a hotel (with only one customer at a time) then you need to abide by rules for hotels. These aren't friends staying over at your place for the weekend.
Also, you only own the property because the government lets you, probably with a history of that government conquering the prior residents and stealing their land for their own. Governments all have a vested interest in making sure neighbors don't screw with neighbors, whether those neighbors be next door or many mile
Re: (Score:2)
There are zoning laws that already address why this isn't the case. Residential properties should be for long term living. AirBNB just ignores the zoning laws and because it's the tech industry, move fast and ignore the law, it's taken politicians time to realize the damage their platforms have caused the overall housing market.
Re: (Score:1)
wtf is it with you people and your obsession with money laundering?
Cry harder, illegal hotel (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
I still think that a commercial driver's license should be required for commercial driving activity as a whole second level gripe with the Uber/Lyft's of the world. But maybe that is just me being quaint.
Re: (Score:2)
People who drive limos aren't required to have a commercial driver's license..
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Admittedly, what AirB&B is doing, is kind of orthogonal to that situation.
wrong box, guys (Score:2)
This is one for the ballot box, not the jury box.
I don't like corporations, but ... (Score:3)
Look, I get the arguments: rowdy short-term renters, rents going up because of AirBnB, is serving "the public" and should abide by hotel laws, yada yada yada. They're all masquerades for "I don't like their business model and the bigger the iron fist the government has, the better" and I'll argue for all the benefits something like AirBnB brings to renters and owners and will reason out all the negatives.
I hope they win.
You should read your own post (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Part of the argument against short term rentals is they raise proces and reduce housing. Yet we have 25,000 empty homes because hotels wonâ(TM)t use excess stock. On the other hand, short term rentals might provide interim affordable housing for people as the
Re: I don't like corporations, but ... (Score:2)
A business model has no inherent right to exist.
This isn't targeting Airbnb, this is targeting short term rentals.
Re: (Score:2)
I think it's you who needs to shut the fuck up. You clearly love their business model beyond any reasonable judgement or evaluation of what they actually offer.
I think we found the NYC landlord, guys.
Vs Hotel (Score:2)
The reason NYC did this is to protect it's expensive hotel industry. They got hit hard by AirBnB, as people started buying condos solely for the purpose of renting them out. Boom, instant competition without any licensing or staff.
Worst of all, the neighbors pay for the discount that the Airbnb gets. They have to put up with the noise, parties, mess, late nights, etc. that some AirBnb's get.
That said, this law does look extreme. Nothing wrong with letting the average joe do this once a month for 4 days
just reasons for regulation (Score:2)
I side with NYC on this. I've been in many airbnb rentals and many, many have no resident host. This has resulted in things like tenants fighting over thermostat settings, a renter setting the kitchen on fire THREE times in one I stayed in (a rapper who was a guest drank while cooking, left pan on stove over flames then went to room and fell asleep - I got woken up at 1:30AM by fire alarm and had to play fireman 3 times!), and various abuses coming from no owner present.
The big problem is that airbnb is ver
Re: (Score:2)
I have never, ever, seen a resident host, or even a host that visited while I was staying there. When did you see one?
However it does point out that the idea that these are people renting their extra bedrooms is totally a fiction.
Fuck AirBnB and housing financial cannibalism (Score:1)
1. Holiday spots. When all the rental places and homes are for workers who make the holiday spot run, and the hotels are for guests, then when it's maxed out you still have a harmonious mix of workers and visitors and
Sector can continue to recover and thrive (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You have more regulations, that is how hotels, hostels and motels operate. This "prohibition" is for businesses opting out of the regulation... You want regulation for those that opt out of regulation?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)