Prior to Invasion, Russian Agents May Have Infilitrated Chernobyl Nuclear Disaster Site (reuters.com) 211
Reuters investigated the strange thing that happened when Russia's invading armored vehicles reached Chernobyl, "a key staging post on the approach to Kyiv," on February 24th. "In less than two hours, and without a fight, the 169 members of the Ukrainian National Guard laid down their weapons."
The fall of Chernobyl, site of the world's worst nuclear disaster, stands out as an anomaly in the five-month old war: a successful blitzkrieg operation in a conflict marked elsewhere by a brutal and halting advance by Russian troops and grinding resistance by Ukraine. Now a Reuters investigation has found that Russia's success at Chernobylwas no accident, but part of a long-standing Kremlin operation to infiltrate the Ukrainian state with secret agents....
One source with direct knowledge of the Kremlin's invasion plans told Reuters that Russian agents were deployed to Chernobyl last year to bribe officials and prepare the ground for a bloodless takeover. Reuters couldn't independently verify the details of this assertion. However, Ukraine's State Bureau of Investigation has said it is investigating a former top intelligence official, Andriy Naumov, on suspicion of treason for passing Chernobyl security secrets to a foreign state.... A review of Ukrainian testimony and court documents and an interview with a local official show that Kyiv is conducting at least three investigations into the conduct of people who worked at Chernobyl. The investigations have identified at least two people suspected of providing information to Russian agents or otherwise helping them seize the plant, according to these documents....
For Russia's war planners, seizing Chernobyl was just a stepping stone to the main objective: taking control of the Ukrainian national government in Kyiv. There, too, the Kremlin expected that undercover agents in positions of power would play a crucial part, according to four sources with knowledge of the plan.
It's been said that journalism is a first draft of history. And Reuters is already wondering how this affected the invasion's ultimate outcome: Five people with knowledge of the Kremlin's preparations said war planners around President Vladimir Putin believed that, aided by these agents, Russia would require only a small military force and a few days to force Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's administration to quit, flee or capitulate.... At a national level, sources with knowledge of the Kremlin's plans said Moscow was counting on activating sleeper agents inside the Ukrainian security apparatus...
Though Russia captured Chernobyl, its plan to take power in Kyiv failed. In many cases, the sleeper agents Moscow had installed failed to do their job, according to multiple sources in Russia and Ukraine.... People the Kremlin counted on as its proxies in Ukraine overstated their influence in the years leading up to the invasion, said four of the sources with knowledge of the Kremlin's preparations. The Kremlin relied in its planning on "clowns — they know a little bit, but they always say what the leadership wants to hear because otherwise they won't get paid," said one of the four, a person close to the Moscow-backed separatist leadership in eastern Ukraine.
Putin now finds himself in a protracted, full-scale war, fighting for every inch of territory at huge cost.
The fall of Chernobyl, site of the world's worst nuclear disaster, stands out as an anomaly in the five-month old war: a successful blitzkrieg operation in a conflict marked elsewhere by a brutal and halting advance by Russian troops and grinding resistance by Ukraine. Now a Reuters investigation has found that Russia's success at Chernobylwas no accident, but part of a long-standing Kremlin operation to infiltrate the Ukrainian state with secret agents....
One source with direct knowledge of the Kremlin's invasion plans told Reuters that Russian agents were deployed to Chernobyl last year to bribe officials and prepare the ground for a bloodless takeover. Reuters couldn't independently verify the details of this assertion. However, Ukraine's State Bureau of Investigation has said it is investigating a former top intelligence official, Andriy Naumov, on suspicion of treason for passing Chernobyl security secrets to a foreign state.... A review of Ukrainian testimony and court documents and an interview with a local official show that Kyiv is conducting at least three investigations into the conduct of people who worked at Chernobyl. The investigations have identified at least two people suspected of providing information to Russian agents or otherwise helping them seize the plant, according to these documents....
For Russia's war planners, seizing Chernobyl was just a stepping stone to the main objective: taking control of the Ukrainian national government in Kyiv. There, too, the Kremlin expected that undercover agents in positions of power would play a crucial part, according to four sources with knowledge of the plan.
It's been said that journalism is a first draft of history. And Reuters is already wondering how this affected the invasion's ultimate outcome: Five people with knowledge of the Kremlin's preparations said war planners around President Vladimir Putin believed that, aided by these agents, Russia would require only a small military force and a few days to force Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy's administration to quit, flee or capitulate.... At a national level, sources with knowledge of the Kremlin's plans said Moscow was counting on activating sleeper agents inside the Ukrainian security apparatus...
Though Russia captured Chernobyl, its plan to take power in Kyiv failed. In many cases, the sleeper agents Moscow had installed failed to do their job, according to multiple sources in Russia and Ukraine.... People the Kremlin counted on as its proxies in Ukraine overstated their influence in the years leading up to the invasion, said four of the sources with knowledge of the Kremlin's preparations. The Kremlin relied in its planning on "clowns — they know a little bit, but they always say what the leadership wants to hear because otherwise they won't get paid," said one of the four, a person close to the Moscow-backed separatist leadership in eastern Ukraine.
Putin now finds himself in a protracted, full-scale war, fighting for every inch of territory at huge cost.
What would you do? (Score:4, Insightful)
It is Chernobyl, not the Alamo. Seriously, I wanna know how many slashdotters think they would bravely put up a fight or surrender like cowards. What would you do? What is the right thing to do in that situation?
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I was thinking the same thing. Probably best to not defend that area too heavily, given that fighting there could release a lot of nasty stuff into the environment. That's presumably why Russia thought it was a good staging area for the next phase of the invasion - Ukraine wouldn't want to risk causing another nuclear disaster by attacking forces there.
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Even just driving around disturbing the soil there in many places is quite bad and can release dangerous amounts of radiation to those nearby. If troops just dug in and created a defensive position it’s a certain horrible death even if no one attacks.
The Russian troops stationed there actually did that. They dug trench works in the Red Forrest and quite a few got sick. No, I am not making this up.
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It is Chernobyl, not the Alamo.
In what sense is Chernobyl less important than the Alamo, a tiny Spanish mission that quartered about 100 Texan troops at the time of the battle?
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There was a compelling strategic reason to hold the Alamo for as long as possible, even at the risk of its destruction.
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That's arguable, which was why James Bowie was originally sent to decommission and destroy the meager fort. After the Alamo fell, its possession certainly didn't prove decisive, right?
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Bowie was persuaded that the Alamo was the best, and possibly only place to stop the Mexicans from sweeping east through central Texas.
Granted, but as it turns out, he was totally wrong about that and the Alamo really never mattered strategically again after the battle. It was the brutality of the battle of the Alamo, itself, the bravery of its defenders against superior numbers becoming an inspirational rallying cry, that would give relevance to the battle and the fort.
Re:What would you do? (Score:4, Interesting)
Hmm, the Alamo was sort of pointless. It only became important as a rallying cry after it fell. The entire civil war in Texas was pointless, they fought to keep slaves which Mexico disallowed, only to fight another civil war for the same reason a few years later. Completely bonkers, but that's Texas for you.
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It is Chernobyl, not the Alamo. Seriously, I wanna know how many slashdotters think they would bravely put up a fight or surrender like cowards. What would you do? What is the right thing to do in that situation?
Well, if I was working there pre-invasion, I wouldn't give the Russians intel to help. For instance, the strength and composition of the defending force along with whatever fortifications had been set up. If I was part of the national guard I'd hold out until it was clearly hopeless, and if I was a technician I'd keep my head down.
Post-invasion, I'd give the minimal help to keep the plant running and avoid a meltdown, but I wouldn't start enthusiastically collaborating to help my new employers.
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There's no danger of a melt-down. The reactors are all decommissioned and the work going there is decommissioning and cleanup work. The workers continued to maintain the site as best they could despite the occupation and the ignorance of the russian soldiers because the cleanup is very important for everyone. If the sarcophagus was destroyed, that would be devastating for a wide area (including Russian territory). Unfortunately Putin does not care about public health, and specifically the health of his
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There's no danger of a melt-down. The reactors are all decommissioned and the work going there is decommissioning and cleanup work. The workers continued to maintain the site as best they could despite the occupation and the ignorance of the russian soldiers because the cleanup is very important for everyone. If the sarcophagus was destroyed, that would be devastating for a wide area (including Russian territory). Unfortunately Putin does not care about public health, and specifically the health of his own troops.
True, I was thinking of some of the other running plants that were captured.
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Give Chornobyl back to the Ukrainians! The Russians have already stolen Chernobyl!
But seriously, folks, I think Putin's original plan for Chornobyl may have been to mine it for a false-flag dirty-bomb operation. If so, something went wrong with that plan, but lots of Putin's latest plans seem to be going the way of mutant mice these days.
But if the Ukrainian counteroffensive ever starts, then we may see what if desperation can push Putin into going nuclear without the false flag...
And I do think the rest of
Great place to defend (Score:2)
Chernobyl is a fantastic place to make a stand. Hold up in a safe entrenched area while the Russians role around killing themselves with the local radiation.
On top of that any assault be the Russians would have to be an infantry assault as not even the Russians are crazy enough to bombard a site like that. This would have given a sizable edged to the entrenched Ukrainians.
Chernobyl should have been a costly win for Russia and the fact that they just rolled in is indeed suspect.
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Well, would you be brave enough to be perceived, by many, as a coward? Because that is what will happen.
"Sleeper" agents? (Score:4, Interesting)
A lot of people don't realize that right up to the invasion there were a lot of openly pro-Putin/pro-Russia citizens around. We see the same thing in currently Moldova where there are people who would welcome a Russia invasion because "gas prices would be lower."
A lot like a big sector of American voters who will vote Republican because they were in a grousy mood filling up the 40-gallon tank on their oversized vehicles while reading a "Thanks Biden" sticker on the gas pump.
Anyway there is no question that Zelenskyy's government was fully aware of who the agents were for quite some time. It isn't as if they were trying very hard to stay secret. More likely they were burnishing their resumes for employment in the new Russian government which they expected to be in power a week or two after the official invasion started.
What they didn't expect: I need ammunition, not a ride. To me that is the sound-bite of the century so far. But a national leader saying that to the world is not the type of guy that is going to have much trouble dealing with non-loyalists in his government. Non-story.
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There were/are of course sympathizers. If they really knew who the agents were, they really fucked up. Because the only reason the rashists captured Kherson is that the bridges weren't blown and they were basically just let in. It's now costing hundreds of lives to re-take it.
That said I think this is probably inevitable. The countries are too close for there not to be a ton of traitors and some are going to slip through when we're talking about so much effort by the russkies.
Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Putin stole much of the countries wealth for personal use.
What makes you think Putin stole his country's wealth "for personal use". Stop thinking like a venture capitalist. Putin spent much of his younger adult life as a member of the security apparatus in the Soviet Union. What mattered more was the power, the doors it figuratively opened and the protection it gave you from the more corrupt agents of the system (so long as you don't stand out too much).
For Putin, wealth is more of a perk. Otherwise, he would've been pretty happy just being another Russian oligarc
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Yep, another example of thug run kleptocracy is China, except there the thug is the CCP. You can see they are scared of what happened to the Soviet Union and that they are also scared of their own people. If China's economy goes south, we can expect their foreign adventures to increase. Taiwan will be the first to get screwed. If the CCP takes Taiwan, it won't be the last country getting the same treatment. Jinping already sees his dick getting smaller with the economy not doing to great.
Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Interesting)
Russia is getting the land bridge, resources and ports it wanted.
Russia will lose Kherson by the end of August, and along with it occupied Ukrainian ports which will now be hit by both artillery and rockets. Ukraine has already sunk the Black Sea flag ship Moskva along with numerous other vessels. It's why Russia furiously backpedaled its ships closer to the Russian coastline. How well do you think those ships will fair, including the ones in occupied Crimea, when Ukraine liberates Kherson in the next month?
Russia is spent. It can't generate any more troops to even replace the nearly 40,000 already killed and at least twice that number wounded. They've had to put Wagner mercenaries in charge of specific portions of the front line because the literally have no one else.
Every other week or so we have evidence Russia is pulling equipment out of deep storage because they're losing so much material and can't repair it.
The longer this goes on the weaker Russia gets. They won't have a viable military force for at least a decade, and that's being generous. Even better, with all these young men being killed, the Russian population will dive even more [themoscowtimes.com] than it already was before the war.
Putin, the master strategist, has done more to destroy Russia than the U.S. and NATO combined. We should give him an award.
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Russia has things the world wants to buy: fuel, food and mineral resources.
Russia could have had a thriving Western style economy.
Instead you got Putin.
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"...in Kyiv. There, too, the Kremlin expected that undercover agents in positions of power would play a crucial part, according to four sources with knowledge of the plan."
In the USA we heard that Chernobyl fell quickly but I was lead to believe, by implication, that Ukranians folded to avoid a confrontation leading to a toxic spread of nuclear waste. Very interesting to consider Russian agent infiltration/preparation, and its failure in the greater plot.
Also here we know of TFG's complicity with Russian in
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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/sighs
No, Chernobyl won't blow up. Unless someone plants a LOT of explosives there.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
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My point wasn't to say that COVID wasn't real, or lockdowns were never legitimate, or anything of that sort.
My point was to highlight how, rather than recognizing one of the most serious issues right now to American voters as such, AlanObject chose instead to cast the rising cost of fuel as an issue of importance to this repugnant caricature of a Trump voter he's erected in his mind. In doing so, he completely misses the small manufacturing company owner who can't get parts and thus has to lay off his crew,
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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Let me ask this - how much of that mystification is a result of the divided partisan bubbles that we all occupy, where encounters with those of opposing viewpoints is rare, and undesirable, and considered a problem to be corrected by finding more efficient ways to plug our ears to their words?
It puts me in mind of the coverage of that Canadian trucker protest. I saw most major media sources covering it, quite extensively actually. But amidst all that coverage, virtually no media source bothered to talk to t
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Trump lied (or more accurately, failed to care what the truth was) constantly
Would you say that isn't true of the Biden administration?
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:3)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:4, Insightful)
The OrangeJulieus banned from 50% of media? WTF are you talking about? Every time that fucking moron flaps his jaws & the diarrhea flows out there is a mic & camera on him. I can't seem to stop hearing him spout off all his stupidity. On ALL media, oh wait.. not twitter! Is that it? He sure as fuck is on ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN & NPR. & that other network that claims to be news.
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He sure as fuck is on ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN & NPR.
He is? I just went over this with another user, they were unable to show me, for example a single MSNBC news article (note: not hyper-partisan opinion piece) covering Trump's recent rally in Arizona.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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It puts me in mind of the coverage of that Canadian trucker protest. I saw most major media sources covering it, quite extensively actually. But amidst all that coverage, virtually no media source bothered to talk to the actual protestors, and when they did it was clear that they had sort of cherry picked someone very unusual.
Not as unusual as you think. It was quite easy to hear what the actual protest leaders had to say, and anyone who follows leaders like that has to be a few cards short of a deck.
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how much of that mystification is a result of the divided partisan bubbles that we all occupy, where encounters with those of opposing viewpoints is rare, and undesirable, and considered a problem to be corrected by finding more efficient ways to plug our ears to their words?
None. We can all go find the opposing viewpoint if we want it. Literally none of it is the bubbles we're in, it's 100% willful ignorance because those viewpoints are trivially located.
When Donald Trump - supported strongly by about 50% of the population
No, and if you think that, you're an idiot [marquette.edu].
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Let me ask this - how much of that mystification is a result of the divided partisan bubbles that we all occupy, where encounters with those of opposing viewpoints is rare, and undesirable, and considered a problem to be corrected by finding more efficient ways to plug our ears to their words?
It puts me in mind of the coverage of that Canadian trucker protest. I saw most major media sources covering it, quite extensively actually. But amidst all that coverage, virtually no media source bothered to talk to the actual protestors, and when they did it was clear that they had sort of cherry picked someone very unusual.
They cherry picked the leaders and spokespeople, who were generally a few acorns short of a squirrel's cache. If the protesters felt those folks didn't represent them then when did they let them act as leaders?
When Donald Trump - supported strongly by about 50% of the population - is banned from essentially all the media that the other 50% of the population consumes when his supporters are given no opportunity to air their perspectives on social media, when even admitting to holding the ideas they hold is considered justification for cancellation, stalking, reprisals, even assassination - is it any wonder that there's a gap in understanding?
Seriously? Trump backed candidates are posting ads where they "hunt" rivals [theguardian.com] and you're complaining that Trump supporters are being subjected to "stalking, reprisals, even assassination"?
Trump's appeal is trolling liberals, that's all it ever has been and that's all it will ever be. So yes, when you bu
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Those COVID lockdowns were necessary, and you may recall they occurred under Trump. He didn't order them (he feared being blamed), but he did let them happen which means his advisors weren't against them.
I'm not a fan of Trump, but he almost certainly COULDN'T order the lockdowns - or implement a national mask requirement, even had he wanted to. The President's power is limited, and you can only stretch the commerce clause so far. An Executive Order likely would have been challenged, and lost.
Quarantine is one of those "reserved to the states" things under the tenth amendment.
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I've got no argument with you there, believe me.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Informative)
Trump had no authority to stop lockdowns and only the white collar workers locked down.
Say what? He had complete authority to do what he wanted. He even said so [cnn.com].
Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
I actually agree with much of what you are saying... but the flaw is that it is Biden/Progressives/Environmentalists/Homosexuals/whatever that are to blame for gas prices specifically and inflation in general.
We started down this road with the Republicans in charge. The direction was set, policy made, and the Democrats inherited the BS (at the Federal level). Some opportunities to shift policy were missed in the past 18 months-- mostly delayed about 4-6 months longer than necessary (including the Fed's cooling action). But, oil prices were not a result of a democratic action or inaction. Intervention in gas prices at the pump could have been considered, but that has always been a slippery slope.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask me if I think Putin would have invaded Ukraine with unpredictable, militaristic Trump in office, who had been warning and even sanctioning certain European powers for years over Nordstream and their dependence on Russian energy, as well as their insufficient commitment to NATO defense spending...
The same Trump who was best buds with Putin?
The same Trump that was anti-Ukraine?
The same Trump that was anti-NATO
The same Trump that was isolationist and anti war.
The same Trump who would only ever get a coalition against him and not with him.
He was the one who would stop Putin?
He praised Putin for invading, saying it was the smart thing to do. Openly questioned why America should even bother to support Ukraine and not Russia.
You have a warped sense of reality.
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You have a warped sense of reality
You're gaslighting. Trump was "best buds" with Putin? That's why he sanctioned Germany for Nordstream, I guess. Talk about a warped sense of reality...
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OK you got me. They weren't really best buds.
Trump idolized Putin, but Putin just played Trump like a fiddle.
What about all the other points though?
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As soon as you can offer me a narrative that rationally explains why Trump pushed hard against Nordstream and European short changing of NATO, even though he was advancing your claimed pro-Putin agenda, I'll be happy to discuss further with you.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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What? I'm a foreign observer, but from where I was watching, Trump was gargling Putin's balls the entire time he was in office. Even when out of office he commented on how astute and clever Putin was for invading Ukraine. Trump would have done shit and Ukraine would be fucked right now if Trump was still in office.
Do you Trump fans just have collective amnesia, or is it because he practices doublespeak so you can just point to whatever random bit of word salad he said once that might agree with what you thi
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I'm a foreign observer, but from where I was watching, Trump was gargling Putin's balls the entire time he was in office.
Trump demanding that Germany halt Nordstream 2 and start paying its NATO defense dues was part of Putin's plan, in your conception?
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Ok... I'll ask. Because quite seriously I have no idea what Putin's calculus (or Trump's for that matter) would have been. Most of Trump's actions are not especially unpredictable; they are just presented that way for showmanship.
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Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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Many NATO members aren't paying their fair share. And it's infuriating. I can see why people are angry about that. What's worse then living in a world where the US projects power and pay for the defense of much of the free world? Living
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What a word salad. My man, Trump's every move was a clear counter to Russia, and China. He talks friendly because he wants to make deals, but we can all see the moves he made on the chess board, and not only were they better moves than Biden is making now, they were much more aggressive.
Biden is the best thing that ever happened to Xi and Putin. His Afghanistan pullout was like the signal to them all - nobody's home in America right now, so get busy.
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Yeah calling Putin a genius for invading Ukraine.
Clearly he should have, instead, lambasted him as a pariah and then went to fist bump with him and beg for oil. Right?
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
The Afghanistan pull out that Trump signed the USA up to? What was Biden supposed to do break the treaty the USA had signed?
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moves to cancel ANWR drilling,
Like the oil in the Alaska pipeline, this oil would have gone overseas, not the U.S. It also would have taken years to get things out of the ground.
cancel domestic pipeline construction,
Which has what to do the price of oil? The oil which would have gone in the pipeline would come out of Canada and head straight to ports to be shipped over seas.
withhold refinery permits,
They weren't refinery permits, they were oil drilling permits, and there are 9,000 of them going unused whi
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Like the oil in the Alaska pipeline, this oil would have gone overseas, not the U.S.
This seems like a basic misunderstanding about economics. When supply increases amidst static demand, what happens? It doesn't matter where this or that molecule of oil goes, it matters that we increase supply in order to lower price.
Which has what to do the price of oil?
As many have been pointing out including most recently the Saudi monarchy, the high price of fuel costs in the US is largely being driven by lack of refiner
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
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Earth isn't the future of humanity, it's just where we came from! The future of humanity is out there, and it is going to take a lot of kinetic energy to go from here to there.
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Like the oil in the Alaska pipeline, this oil would have gone overseas, not the U.S.
This seems like a basic misunderstanding about economics. When supply increases amidst static demand, what happens? It doesn't matter where this or that molecule of oil goes, it matters that we increase supply in order to lower price.
That is (not seems like, is) a basic misunderstanding about economics. When we say that something is fungible, we only mean that physics doesn't care where we get it. But oil is a lot more complicated than you apparently think it is. Not only are there different grades of oil, but not everyone can buy the same oil from the same people at the same prices. That's not how anything works.
Because of the grade of crude that comes out of the tar sands, which was what Keystone XL was for, the oil would have had to
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I don't buy, and I don't think the average voter does or will buy, that gas prices would be like this under Trump.
That's because you've got TDS, the derangement of finding Trump adequate. The average voter in the US is more blue than red, and doesn't believe anything Trump says.
Particularly if they've been paying attention to this administration's moves to cancel ANWR drilling, cancel domestic pipeline construction, withhold refinery permits, and generally signal to the domestic oil production market that they're in for hard times
Biden has granted more leases than Trump already, he canceled a pipeline that a) would have done very little to reduce fuel prices as it does very little to increase production and b) wouldn't have been done by now anyway. Anyone who thinks it's relevant is a spectacular chucklefuck.
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That is some dissonance for you. No, the pressure on gas prices has nothing to do with drilling in ANWR; that oil would take a decade to come online. The inflation pressure is the result of a) Trump not wanting to lose the election because of COVID so creating a massive infusion of cash into the economy, and b) lockdowns for COVID making it difficult for people to spend money as well as difficult for manufacturers to maintain supply.
(Do not get me wrong; the additional COVID spending in Biden's term is so
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Trump would have cheered Russia on in invading Ukraine.
Why did Trump try everything including sanctions to prevent Germany from being dependent on Russian natural gas, and to spend more on NATO defense? So he could let Russia take over Europe? I think your hatred has blinded you.
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Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeing the way this shit is going, my wife and I are not looking forward to the next few years.
The sarcastic comment about "yokels' 40-gallon gas tanks" is a bit over the top, lacking "nuance". Here is another nuance: this country has had 45 goddamned years to research, build, and otherwise work on living efficiently while living well. Instead we have corporate motherfuckers selling fake manhood with 4X4s so goddamned big that normal sized people can't see over their hoods. Inefficiency is profitable for the executives but sucks for the rest of us. The lucky ones are occasionally a bit depressed reading about how fucked "the unlucky ones" are. Those unlucky ones get to deal with the fires, floods, hunger, thirst and mass migration.
I don't really blame the people who got sucked in by the propaganda but it is disappointing to see that they did not look beyond what they were being told by assholes that could give a tinker's damn about what happens in a few years.
The covid lockdowns were probably a mistake. The only guides the "big progressive government" had at the time were the successful management of SARS, MERS and ebola non-epidemics, controlled by lockdowns, careful monitoring, and good managment by various governments earlier in the century. Blame progressive ideology all you want but the covid pestilence started in an authoritarian regime, and found a USA being run by the Trump administration.
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Big guy, I have been working in corporate America for 45 years. I am entirely too familiar with the culture. Small, large, old, startup, shutdown, high tech, low tech. Been there, done that.
Your mother's story is interesting, to be sure. Here's mine: in 1961 we could not afford food. By 1973 I was in college. During the 60's (and before), this country knew how to build and develop both industry and technology. I was one of many students who wore dog tags, living in a second-strike city (Pittsburgh). Under threat of thermonuclear annihilation this country built industry, built rockets, semiconductor industry, and many other improvements.
That said, by the early 1980's all that infrastructure development began slowing, and I started to see a transition to focus on finance/MBA model and away from development and production. That was the beginning of the movement of corporate management toward outsourcing and foreign labor. I watched firsthand as our automotive industry got creamed by Japanese quality, I watched our industrial production jobs moved to Malaysia and China. I watched as workers got shitcanned, watched as steelworkers got screwed over, watched as automation killed coal mining jobs (but this is where I get really pissed) while the mine operators kept production up and rising. My family had a farm near southeastern Ohio and we watched the depression got worse and worse with every year.
This is not "history" for me. What I am responding to is what I've been living. I've been reading, watching and noticing all of it.
I don't blame the F-150 driver beyond a lack of interest in identifying the real issues. Most people are overloaded keeping up and have been for decades.
I remember the arguments about leaded gas, and smoking, and the whole goddamned lie of "teach the controversy". I was there. Lead poisoning is a good example. Those motherfuckers knew lead poisoning was real from the '20s onward but kept it up until at long last and way too late, gas went unleaded. Look at the crime statistics sometime: Various property and violent crime rates began falling in response to reduction in atmospheric lead worldwide. Since countries reduced their lead pollution at different times, it was possible to see how the correlations occurred with similar latencies in each country.
Smoking was similar. Tobacco executives stood before congress, right hand up to God, saying they did not know that nicotine was addictive. While simultaneously they were managing nicotine content informed by the best research.
The question of CO2 affecting atmospheric heat was FIRST STUDIED by coal companies and oil companies, it's documented in their own reports. Yet when it came to managing emissions, yet again it was "teach the controversy, the research is at best incomplete and probably a lie told by the progressive hippies". Again, not history, this was current events.
Communist? no. Too much concentrated power in "the state", always leads to a state mafia.
Free enterprise? yes.
Competitive enterprise? Absolutely.
Concentrated corporate power? Absolutely not.
The bottom line is that concentrated power leads inevitably to corruption whether it is "left" or "right".
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A lot like a big sector of American voters who will vote Republican because they were in a grousy mood filling up the 40-gallon tank on their oversized vehicles while reading a "Thanks Biden" sticker on the gas pump.
Ah yes, casting the shock attending $2+ a gallon rise in gas prices as an emotional hissy fit by immoral environment-destroying yokels.
Such a mature set of leadership skills.
After all, it isn't that our entire economy runs on gasoline and diesel, from the cargo containers on giant shipping vessels transiting the globe (at a cost to businesses more than double only a couple of years ago) to the fairly energy efficient but still gasoline powered Amazon, FedEx, and UPS truck fleet that brings you that deluxe hard copy bound edition of Kamala Harris quotes 24 hours after you order it. It's not that we can't figure out how to make an electric cargo plane. It's not that millions of lower middle income Americans got fucked out of their family vacations after two years of psychologically damaging COVID lockdowns.
No sir. It's just those immoral, yokel Republicans sticking "I Did That" stickers on gas pumps who are suffering, and who cares about them, anyway?
Every day I find myself more and more in the Elon Musk camp. Modern progressive ideology, as exemplified by your post, seems driven by nothing so much as blind hatred for absolutely everything and everyone.
The people who are mad about gas prices have short memories. The same thing happened around 2008 or so. Did they learn their lesson and stick with more fuel efficient vehicles after prices went down? Of course not they bought full size trucks and SUVs as fast as the factories could churn them out. Here we are again, history repeating itself. Will a lesson be learned? Of course not, its the democrats raising gasoline prices again!
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The people who are mad about gas prices have short memories.
Oh, OK. It's the memories of people whose fuel costs have doubled to blame. Got it.
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Oh, OK. It's the memories of people whose fuel costs have doubled to blame. Got it.
If they were smart enough to understand that fuel prices can rise again, having risen before, then they would be able to afford fuel now because they'd have much more efficient vehicles.
What's really dumb about American drivers in particular is how they believe that they need a big fucking motor to do work. We have a 3/4 ton Sprinter with a 2.7 liter turbo diesel that gets 26 MPG while cruising at ~65. It can tow 5k. The dually version can tow 8k. And even when stuffed to the gills, it gets up and scoots ju
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If they were smart enough to understand that fuel prices can rise again
Ah, yes, it's their faulty memories... and also how stupid everyone is. It's not economic mismanagement by the White House leading to record inflation and unaffordable fuel prices. Got it.
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Ah, yes, it's their faulty memories... and also how stupid everyone is.
That's what I said, yes. They're fucking stupid all day, and ignorant too. How can you go through your day without noticing all the stupid shit around you? Just doesn't register for you, I guess.
It's not economic mismanagement by the White House leading to record inflation and unaffordable fuel prices.
Correct, it is not — or at least, not only this white house. It's every white house, because the vast majority of politicians on both sides of the aisle are corporate whores. Even when the Democrats are in control of the government, we still aren't prosecuting obvious examples of antitrust, including price gou
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You don't seriously think that sort of abusive spouse tactic is really going to work on voters in November, do you? "No, honey, I love you, it's just all your fault"
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You don't seriously think that sort of abusive spouse tactic is really going to work on voters in November, do you?
The blue types aren't dumb enough to believe that the president controls fuel prices, so no abuse (which telling the truth isn't) is necessary. The red types won't vote for a blue no matter what, so trying to reach them would be a fat waste of time — you can't remedy willful ignorance with information, because it will only be rejected.
What's actually going to torpedo the Democrats in the midterms is Biden not keeping his campaign promises WRT student loans and the minimum wage, which are things that h
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I'm sure that's true of the affluent people that you know, but the majority of people don't buy new cars, or lease cars. And I assure you that I am surrounded (in Humboldt County, CA) by poors who deliberately bought big trucks with big engines and are now crying about how Biden has ruined their lives. I have literally heard them bitching about it first hand. Only on the overlanding for the poors group I am in (yes, literally) are most people interested in high-MPG off-roaders.
Come down to the dirt where mo
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
Re: "Sleeper" agents? (Score:2)
I guess they are supposed to let the poor get lung cancer and other consequences of gasoline vehicles?
Re:"Sleeper" agents? (Score:5, Interesting)
Over half the population in the east was pro-Russian though, weird long story in itself.
Was pro-Russian (not a weird long story, Russia spent decades trying to ethnically cleanse and Russify Ukraine, starting in the east).
Up till 2014 that part of the country probably still identified as Russian more than Ukrainian, but getting invaded and hearing the horror stories of the population living under an 8 year Russian occupation will change your mind.
After the recent invasion... they're actually starting to switch to speaking Ukrainian as well.
That and the situation with neo-nazis in Ukraine gets ignored by Clown News Network and similar beside by our government.
Maybe because the whole neo-Nazi thing is complete BS [jpost.com]?
Sure, there's a handful just like everywhere, but saying Ukraine is overrun by neo-nazis is like saying the US is overrun by the Proud Boys, except the Proud Boys probably have more supporters. I mean Zelynsky, a Jew who lost relatives in the holocaust, won the election in a landslide. What kinda neo-Nazi is going to vote for him?
And speaking of lies, people will vote Republican because the incompetents in Biden administration said there would be no inflation problem, no recession problem, border is fine and that we are in a "wonderful transition". Meanwhile all the bad things they deny are coming true, the lawlessness in the big cities and at the border is out of control, and even now they are trying to redefine "recession" when we are in one.
Inflation and the potential recession are legit complaints, but the major cause of that is Russia invading Ukraine and affecting the global financial situation.
As for "lawlessness in the big cities and at the border is out of control" I have no idea what you're on about. The cities seem a lot more peaceful than under Trump, and the SCOTUS has largely prevented Biden from setting border policy.
As for "redefining" a recession the 2 quarters negative growth thing was never a formal definition [theconversation.com].
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To die for (Score:3)
It's been said that journalism is a first draft of history.
It's also said that truth is the first victim of war which probably tells you something about the accuracy of history, too. (Written by the victors)
Though you would have to consider whether any Ukrainian troops would think it was worth dying for a pile of radioactive slag?
Of course Russia infiltrated Ukraine prior (Score:2)
They could do it easily: both countries are very close culturally, linguistically and ethnically. Much more easily than infiltrating, say, the Nigerian institutions, where they'd stick out like a vanilla Magnum in a Mars bar party. If would have been neglectful of Moscow not to use the opportunity.
Russia infiltrated Ukraine and vice-versa (Score:2)
both countries are very close culturally, linguistically and ethnically
And many Russians have Ukrainian relatives.
It also makes you wonder what Ukrainian operatives are currently doing in Russia.
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They were also there (Score:2)
...when it blew up.
In a way I’m glad (Score:5, Interesting)
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The alternative was to let a bunch of 19-year old conscripts with explosives overrun a nuclear facility with no command and control at all. What could possibly have gone wrong? I’m entirely opposed to Russia’s actions and totally support Ukraine, but I’m glad the Russians exerted at least a little control and self restraint while taking that particular facility during the fighting.
Indeed, it's good they wouldn't do something as so reckless as using the Nuclear plant as a munitions depot to protect it from artillery [newsweek.com]. Note, one of the theories for the POW prison exploding [reuters.com] is that Russians were using it as a munitions depot and.... oops.
Re:In a way I’m glad (Score:4, Interesting)
The far more likely scenario is the prison was hit by Ukrainian artillary, it was a front line town under attack from Ukraine. Yes everyone hates to see the "good" guys commit atrocities, but it happens in all wars regardless of how skilled your fighters and how advanced the equipment. I find it offensive the amount of conspiracy theories people try to invent to find a reason to excuse it.
Normally I'd say that was the case, though given the history of Russia during the conflict I'd rank the possibilities as the following:
1) Russians using it as a munition depot and it accidentally going up.
2) Russians directly shelling it as reprisals or a false flag (trying to make the Ukrainians more reluctant to use HIMRAS)
3) Ukrainians accidentally hitting it thinking it was a Russian barracks (most likely with a combination of bad intel from a Russian agent and/or it being used as munitions storage).
Note, even if the Ukrainians did hit it the Russians are to blame for putting a POW camp in the front lines: [umn.edu]
Article 23
No prisoner of war may at any time be sent to or detained in areas where he may be exposed to the fire of the combat zone, nor may his presence be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.
Prisoners of war shall have shelters against air bombardment and other hazards of war, to the same extent as the local civilian population. With the exception of those engaged in the protection of their quarters against the aforesaid hazards, they may enter such shelters as soon as possible after the giving of the alarm. Any other protective measure taken in favour of the population shall also apply to them.
Detaining Powers shall give the Powers concerned, through the intermediary of the Protecting Powers. all useful information regarding the geographical location of prisoner of war camps.
Whenever military considerations permit, prisoner of war camps shall be indicated in the day-time by the letters PW or PG, placed so as to be clearly visible from the air. The Powers concerned may, however, agree upon any other system of marking. Only prisoner of war camps shall be marked as such.
Didnâ(TM)t stay bribed (Score:5, Interesting)
Not exeptional (Score:2)
There are many stories like this one. And unfortunately in places more important than Tchernobyl. Which was just a point between them and Kyiv.
Zelensky fired a number of high ranked officials realizing they were working for the Russians. Interesting (ans short) interview of an Ukrainian general explaining they were well warned about the invasion but the political leadership did not react.
https://twitter.com/volodyatre... [twitter.com]
P.S. Few posts in this bizarre thread are about Ukraine.