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Government

Mexico's President Plans to End Daylight Saving Time (apnews.com) 79

"Mexico's president submitted a bill Tuesday to end daylight saving time, putting an end to the practice of changing clocks twice a year," reports the Associated Press: Health Secretary Jorge Alcocer said Mexico should return to "God's clock," or standard time, arguing that setting clocks back or forward damages people's health...

The change would mean central Mexican time, which covers most of the country, potentially could be permanently two hours behind the east coast of the United States; it is now one hour behind for most of the year.

Here's how Reuters summarizes the Mexican government's position. Changing to daylight saving time in 1996 "was unpopular and did not generate many benefits for the country."
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Mexico's President Plans to End Daylight Saving Time

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    • by Tim the Gecko ( 745081 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:48PM (#62688904)

      It makes sense to scrap DST in Mexico City as it is so far south. In midwinter daylight is from 7am to 6pm, and without DST the midsummer daylight is from 6am to 7.20pm. There's not much point in changing their clocks.

      Contrast that with places further north. In San Francisco the midwinter day is from 7.20am to 5pm, and the midsummer day, without DST, would be from 4.50am to 7.35pm. With permanent DST you would get a midsummer day lasting to 8.35pm (good), but midwinter would be pretty dark until 8.20am, which people will absolutely not like. There is already concern [slashdot.org] over school students learning less due to their body clock, and permanent DST would make that problem worse in the winter by dragging in students an hour earlier (in solar time).

      • by Fly Swatter ( 30498 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:55PM (#62688920) Homepage
        DST made some sense when job hours were fixed and business was mostly local.

        But with work from home, flexible work hours, a global economy, and computer scheduling, there is no reason to not to leave it up to the local regions to set their school and work hours as they see fit. Leave the clocks alone and fix your area work and school hours if it is a problem. Stop messing with the clocks.
        • Leave the clocks alone and fix your area work and school hours if it is a problem.

          For single people with flexible hours or working from home it will be fine. It's easy to imagine a family with multiple calendars - Mom is tied to Jefferson County's winter dates, the childminder has their own kid in the Adams County school district with different dates, and Pop works for a bank that has state-wide opening hours and no winter time. After a couple of winters juggling that stuff some people will be begging for a national switchover date, and maybe changing all the clocks, as it's easier.

          "Spring Forward: The Annual Madness of Daylight Saving Time" by Michael Downing has a few examples of the problems when local areas start making time decisions themselves.

          • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, 2022 @08:32PM (#62689052)
            Look at when your Home Depot is open in the winter and in the summer. The only thing DST affects is TV schedules.
          • by billyswong ( 1858858 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @08:39PM (#62689062)

            For single people with flexible hours or working from home it will be fine. It's easy to imagine a family with multiple calendars - Mom is tied to Jefferson County's winter dates, the childminder has their own kid in the Adams County school district with different dates, and Pop works for a bank that has state-wide opening hours and no winter time. After a couple of winters juggling that stuff some people will be begging for a national switchover date, and maybe changing all the clocks, as it's easier.

            So you like big government dictating personal life schedule for everyone? It sounds so communist!

            To a more rational and less lazy family, "after a couple of winters" getting used to the new normal, people will get on with their life. We can mark dates manually on physical calendars in the past. We can mark dates automatically on online smartphone calendars now. A national switchover is unnecessary and fails to account for difference between north and south. Different regions organically want different amount of summer-winter schedule change.

          • It could all be solved by just having some flexibility from employers. Have core hours and flexible start/end times around them. Many businesses in Europe do that and customers are fine with it, they understand that some places finish early on Friday and some staff might not be available until 10 AM.

        • And I wish people will stop with the "oh we can just update all of the firmware to deal with yet another time change." NO! Not only are many devices unable to be updated, and have their firmware in mask rom to boot, but people shouldn't have to deal with fixing clocks or fucked up clocks because some suit thinks calander/time fucking is a "good idea".

          • by Megane ( 129182 ) on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:47AM (#62692718)

            I once had to make a binary change to code when some legacy software was needed for a test deployment in Mexico, because the project for the newer software was behind schedule. It was legacy enough that I couldn't figure out how to get the build system working. (it was 68HC12 code, and the only working debug module had to be borrowed from the production line!)

            The problem was that Mexico is still on the "normal" DST dates, before someone conned Dubya into thinking that a change would somehow save energy. Fortunately the DST code had a year check that had been left in (I think the change was already over by the time it was added!), so I tweaked the high byte of the year comparison, and changed the checksum. Literally two bits were changed.

            What I really dread is when some suit decides that double-DST is a good idea. I think it happened once in the UK, but that was long before computers were in everything. So much software is written with "either it's off, or it's one hour", and it will be a complete disaster.

      • by fustakrakich ( 1673220 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:59PM (#62688928) Journal

        They should just start school an hour later during the winter. Shorten the workday too.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:02PM (#62688934)
        I live in the northern U.S. and in the state where I live they went to "permanent daylight savings time" back in the 1980s. It lasted less than a year. As soon as winter came parents were complaining about their kids having to go to school in the dark and they changed back the following summer.

        Having to change your clock twice a year is an extremely minor annoyance. Just STFU and get on with it. And no, it does not cause "health problems". Your body doesn't know what time it is. If you can't tolerate a 1 hour variation, 2 days out of 365, then you have some sort of medical problem not caused or related to daylight savings time.
      • Contrast that with places further north. In San Francisco the midwinter day is from 7.20am to 5pm, and the midsummer day, without DST, would be from 4.50am to 7.35pm. With permanent DST you would get a midsummer day lasting to 8.35pm (good), but midwinter would be pretty dark until 8.20am, which people will absolutely not like. There is already concern over school students learning less due to their body clock, and permanent DST would make that problem worse in the winter by dragging in students an hour earlier (in solar time).

        DST may make sense in California, where the shift is reasonable.

        But it becomes even less reasonable further north, when the spread betwen summer and winter grows even bigger.

        After all, get to the Pacific Northwest, and in the winter, the sun rises around 7:30-8:30AM PST and sets around 4:30-5:30PM. If you're going to school either you're going to school in the dark or going home in the dark. Pick one.

        In the summer, it rises around 3:30AM PST and sets around 9:30PM PST. So either you wake up to sun or you sleep with the sun still up. Again, pick one.

        DST only makes sense for the narrow band around central California where the sun shifts by about a hour. Once you go north of California, either DST needs to shift more hours, or it really makes no effing difference at all. I mean, if the sun gets up at 3:30AM or 4:30AM in the middle of summer, does it really matter? It's still bright up if you get up at 5AM. And at bedtime, well, it's not making a whole pile of deal - either you're sleeping with the sun still up or it just set.

        In the winter, it'll be dark regardless in the morning, so kids will always be going to school when it's dark. And if you work, it'll be dark in the morning AND evening. DST or no DST, no difference.

        It's why people want flexibility in work hours and work from home - because well, in the winter, day light is precious and it's not nice to be cooped up in the office for the few hours it's light outside. Work in the morning when it's dark outside, do errands when it's daylight, then resume working when it's dark outside.

        Though with DST, you probably might catch a few earlybirds able to go home in with the sun still up.

      • by mjwx ( 966435 ) on Tuesday July 12, 2022 @10:01AM (#62696454)

        It makes sense to scrap DST in Mexico City as it is so far south. In midwinter daylight is from 7am to 6pm, and without DST the midsummer daylight is from 6am to 7.20pm. There's not much point in changing their clocks.

        Contrast that with places further north. In San Francisco the midwinter day is from 7.20am to 5pm, and the midsummer day, without DST, would be from 4.50am to 7.35pm. With permanent DST you would get a midsummer day lasting to 8.35pm (good), but midwinter would be pretty dark until 8.20am, which people will absolutely not like. There is already concern [slashdot.org] over school students learning less due to their body clock, and permanent DST would make that problem worse in the winter by dragging in students an hour earlier (in solar time).

        I agree, Mexico, being that close to the equator doesn't see a big difference between summer and winter in terms of daylight hours. Even in SF it's marginal however on London's latitude, in mid-winter you have less that 8 hours (8 am to 4 pm ish) and in mid summer it's 16+ (4:30 am to 11 pm ish). If we didn't have daylight saving the sun would be up at 3:30 in the bleeding morning in summer (or if we adopted BST year round, not up until 9 am in the winter). So for the variances in daylight, DST makes sense for the UK and similar countries.

      • My city is at approximately 40.4 degrees north. At this latitude, sunrises and sunsets vary greatly.

        Mar 20 07:32 - 19:39 DST => 12h07
        Jun 21 05:57 - 21:01 DST => 15h04
        Sep 22 07:15 - 19:26 => 12h12
        Dec 21 07:47 - 17:04 => 9h17

        If we stick to daylight savings time, sunrises vary from 05:57 to 08:47 and sunsets from 18:04 to 21:01. If we stick to standard time, sunrises vary from 04:57 to 07:47 and sunsets from 17:04 to 20:01. The school bus picks my kids up at 07:24 and drops them off at 14:35. The bus stop is approximate 1 block away. Which strategy for daylight saving makes the most sense for my city? If strictly standard time, my sons walk to the bus in the dark half the school year. If strictly daylight saving time, they have less than 3 hours of sunlight after school for half the school year.

        The town I grew up in was only 21.6 degrees north and did not observe daylight saving time. On the longest day of the year, we had sunlight from 05:50 to 19:17 (13h27 of daylight). The shortest day had sun from 07:05 to 17:54 (10h49 of daylight).

    • End it? They're looking at going to it - year 'round!
    • by clovis ( 4684 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:26PM (#62689152)

      Nope.
      Put all government services, schools, airlines, trains, etc on UTC. Businesses will tag along and eventually people will get used to it.
      Local governments and businesses can set their start the day time to whatever suits their local seasonal sunrise and sunset.

      Those who want to stay on whatever time system they like can keep whatever clocks they want.
      Thanks to the Internet and near universal ownership of phones, anyone can quickly check when that Walmart that's five states away will open.

      • by caseih ( 160668 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @11:06PM (#62689336)

        That's essentially what China does. The whole country is all on Beijing time officially. In western China they just get up a lot later and conduct business a lot later in the "day." I think in reality, such a system solves none of the problems surrounding traditional time zones and probably introduces more. You still have to think about what "time" it is at the other end of the country when conducting business. I don't know how individual cities do it, but if they each chose their standard business hours you'd end up even more "time zones" than the current flawed systems that are in use in north america. Or best case each state, province, or region would pick some standard hours and you'd still end up with de facto time zones.

        To me sticking with standard time for a time zone is the best, and keeping time zones centered on their meridian as much as possible.

        • Similar in Japan, but on a smaller scale. Japan also has different work hours for different jobs, e.g. a lot of retail is 11:00 to 19:00 or 20:00, because people want to shop after work/school.

          My current employer has no fixed hours. There are some scheduled meetings but that's it, otherwise you can work what you like as long as stuff gets done. In practice that means working the same hours as people you need to cooperate with, but there is immense flexibility.

    • "permanent" != "ending"

    • What's taking so long to finally end it?

  • by Arethan ( 223197 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @06:46PM (#62688896) Journal

    Changing to daylight saving time in 1996 "was unpopular and did not generate many benefits for the country."

    No kidding - call me astonished...
    The closer to the equator you get, the less effect the seasons have upon your daylight hours throughout the year. No one is surprised by this "revelation".

    Regardless, daylight savings time has long lost its meaning and purpose within the US -- just kill it, please, so we can all stop kicking this pointless horse.

    • by Miamicanes ( 730264 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:03PM (#62688938)

      Everyone hates the change, but people mostly prefer later sunsets. A sensible compromise would be to permanently split the difference, eg:

      NewEastern = UTC-4.5

      NewCentral = UTC-5.5

      NewMountain = UTC-6.5

      NewPacific = UTC-7.5

      Guaranteed, within a year, most countries in Europe would do the same thing, and most timezones would end up a whole number of hours apart, but an additional half-hour ahead or behind UTC.

      • You might find that breaks some software. Although even now we have some countries on 0.5 or 0.25 step timezones, all the major economies are on integers.

        You could just say screw it and everyone use UTC. Wouldn't take long to get used to getting up at 12:00.

        • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, 2022 @03:49PM (#62691320)

          You could just say screw it and everyone use UTC.

          Works fine for the military.

          Then again, the military generally (no, not always) goes with things that are proven to work, generate the least amount of confusion, and combine it with a sufficient amount of discipline.

          In other words, it will absolutely not work for the general public.

        • by Megane ( 129182 ) on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:57AM (#62692750)

          It wouldn't break "some software", it would break almost all software. Nobody in the era since computers got put into everything has ever used a DST offset other than exactly one hour. The switchover dates might be parameterized, but nothing with a clock that isn't running on a full, regularly updated OS, has a way to change the offset. Even stuff that doesn't know the changeover dates has a "DST on/off" switch that changes by one hour. And do not confuse this with plus half-hour time zones.

          It would be a nightmare that "normie" people can't even begin to comprehend until they've been thrust into it by the morons in DC.

      • Everyone hates the change, but people mostly prefer later sunsets. A sensible compromise would be to permanently split the difference, eg:

        NewEastern = UTC-4.5

        NewCentral = UTC-5.5

        NewMountain = UTC-6.5

        NewPacific = UTC-7.5

        Guaranteed, within a year, most countries in Europe would do the same thing, and most timezones would end up a whole number of hours apart, but an additional half-hour ahead or behind UTC.

        To wit, an actual official time zone:
        Newfoundland = UTC-3.5

        • by Megane ( 129182 ) on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:59AM (#62692756)
          He wasn't talking about time zones, he was talking about DST offsets. They are completely different things. Going from -5 to -5.5 is much different than going from -3.5 to -2.5.
          • by Miamicanes ( 730264 ) on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:35AM (#62692882)

            Actually, I was talking about a compromise between 'abolishing dst' and 'permanent dst' that splits the difference by re-defining 'standard time' as '30 minutes ahead of what it is now' (or, if you prefer, '30 minutes behind present-day DST) & stays there all the time.

            It trades 30 minutes of summer evening daylight for 30 minutes of winter evening daylight, but unlike 'permanent (1-hour) DST', there would at *least* be twilight almost everywhere by 8:30am.

            8:30am+ darkness is the point where voters really get upset. If you insist upon shifting a whole-hour multiple (permanent 1-hour dst), you end up with lots of people experiencing darkness after 8:30am for up to a month per year. Cut the permanent shift in half (to 30 minutes), and nearly everyone gets to have at least predawn twilight by 8:30am for all but maybe 5-10 days per year.

            * More daylight after work: win

            * No clock-changing twice per year: win

            * twilight by 8:30am (all but maybe a week) for 99% of voters in exchange for having at least twilight after work the rest of the year: win.

            Permanent DST is a good idea in general, but a whole hour goes a little too far & prolongs the worst early-morning pain for about a month. Shave it down to 30 minutes, and the worst pain lasts less than a week... and most people have no pain at all.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 10, 2022 @12:21AM (#62689454)

      Regardless, daylight savings time has long lost its meaning

      Obviously, otherwise people would remember it's Daylight Saving Time. Calling it Daylight Savings Time distracts from your message.

      (Kudos for correctly using a hyphenated sentence, an ellipsis, and the correct form of "its" in your post.)

    • by Kerry Boehm ( 4570163 ) on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:58AM (#62692752)
      As with everything, the devil is in the details. You'll find a lot of support for ending DST because who actually likes changing clocks twice a year? It gets a little harder once you get into the specifics. Do you do std or dst all year or something else. Personally I would prefer to keep changing clocks rather than be on standard time all year. The handful of people who still let their kids ride the bus will not like that. For the northern US I've come to the conclusion changing clocks is the least worst compromise. I parallel it to the gun control debate. A majority seems to be in support of some sort of ban but once you try defining what exactly you want to ban it starts falling apart.
  • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:29PM (#62688966)

    We all get to express our set opinions on this again! Normally we only get to do it in early spring and mid-fall...

    I'm a bit disappointed, though. The "UTC everywhere" crowd has really been dropping the ball lately. We need more of your ridic^H^H^H^H^H insightful posts!

  • by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:34PM (#62688972) Homepage

    It's the changeover that messes with people's bodies and causes problems. So here's a modest proposal.

    From March 1 through March 30, move the clocks forward two minutes per day. Everyone will get lots of exercise running around changing them, plus we'll get really used to knowing how to set the clocks on our various devices, which will make us all more tech-savvy.

    From October 1 through October 30, do the reverse: Go back two minutes per day.

    Lots of exercise and no jarring one-hour shift. What could possibly be the downsides??

    All right; all right; I hear some of you nay-sayers saying even two minutes a day is too jarring. FINE. So from Dec 21 through June 21, we move the clocks forward 19.78 seconds per day, and then from June 21 through Dec 21 we move clocks backwards 19.78 seconds per day. We rest on February 29th.

  • by Shag ( 3737 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @07:43PM (#62688984) Journal

    I lived in Hawaii for a while, and at ~20 degrees from the equator, the length of day and sunrise and sunset times didn't vary enough to make daylight savings worth it. Mexico City is at about the same latitude, so this seems like a sensible move for Mexico as well.

  • by bimbo69 ( 9325765 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @08:09PM (#62689022)
    That lost hour of sleep is far more damaging than anyone appreciates. Finally, an end to cartel violence.
  • by Hari Pota ( 7672548 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @08:19PM (#62689038)
    "My cartel member son killed your honor roll son" Mexican bumper sticker
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 09, 2022 @08:21PM (#62689042)

    Come on Canada get your asses in gear eh? When will you join the party?

  • by Virtucon ( 127420 ) on Saturday July 09, 2022 @09:19PM (#62689138)

    Shit, the last time we mucked with the start/end dates of DST it caused a lot of headaches and rushed patches, that was in 2007 here in the US. The idea was to save energy. All I remember was it caused a lot of legacy system patches. It's just one of those downstream effects that congress doesn't take into account when they do this kind of crap. [timetemperature.com]

    If we want to get rid of it, let's do it once and for all!

  • by YuppieScum ( 1096 ) on Sunday July 10, 2022 @02:00AM (#62689576) Journal
    How will a switch to GMT be a good thing for Mexico?
  • by groobly ( 6155920 ) on Sunday July 10, 2022 @10:18AM (#62690422)

    Wake me when it's done. Plans, plans. I plan to make a million dollars tomorrow.

  • by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Sunday July 10, 2022 @11:33AM (#62690612)
    As much as I appreciate the idea of ending the DST nonsense, I am pretty sure the average Mexican would prioritize other topics much higher on the president's to-do list, such as ending the de-facto rule of the narcotics cartels over the country and the terrible acts of violence this results in.

    Ending DST sounds like a very low hanging fruit one could pick.
  • by silverdr ( 779097 ) on Sunday July 10, 2022 @04:39PM (#62691462)
    ditch the anachronism called "time zones" too

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