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Bitcoin Government United States

New York Closes In On Bitcoin Mining Crackdown (cnbc.com) 97

Posted by BeauHD from the get-ready dept.
A New York bill that would ban new bitcoin mining operations is "swiftly making its way through the state capitol in Albany," reports CNBC. Some industry insiders fear that the bill, which calls for a two-year moratorium on certain cryptocurrency mining operations that use proof-of-work authentication methods to validate blockchain transactions, could have a domino effect across the U.S. From the report: Lawmakers sponsoring the legislation say they are looking to curb the state's carbon footprint by cracking down on mines that use electricity from power plants that burn fossil fuels. For two years, unless a proof-of-work mining company uses 100% renewable energy, it would not be allowed to expand or renew permits, and new entrants would not be allowed to come online. [...] At this point, the State Assembly has passed the bill, and it is now under consideration by the Democratic-controlled State Senate, which will soon vote on the measure. If it passes, it will land on the desk of Governor Kathy Hochul, who could sign it into law or veto it. "If it passes, it would make New York the first state in the country to ban blockchain technology infrastructure," explained Perianne Boring, founder and president of the Digital Chamber of Commerce. "New York will be left behind, losing to other states at best, and at worst, other more progressive nations," says Galaxy Digital's Head of Mining Amanda Fabiano. "New York is setting a bad precedent that other states could follow."
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New York Closes In On Bitcoin Mining Crackdown More

New York Closes In On Bitcoin Mining Crackdown

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  • Thus securing the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. Oh wait that was when we were still a republic and individuals were secure from the mob.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by msauve ( 701917 )
      You're free to mine all you want, if you do it yourself (i.e. off the grid). "Liberty" does not include using public infrastructure without restriction. Ask the people in California who would like to water their lawns.
      • So sorry if this posts ForFuckâ(TM)sSake

      • Public infrastructure? Last I heard Con Edison was a private public company. (well a listed company but privately owned).

        And using California as an example is ridiculous.
        Here's an aerial shot of Beverly Hills

        https://external-content.duckd... [duckduckgo.com]

        Want to say they aren't watering lawns? Those laws only apply to the unconnected and poor people.

        • Ruining lakes with thermal pollution is public nuisance.

          • That would be a problem of the power company not the end user. Unless you think they are water cooling their rigs by immersing them in lakes?

            • yes some bitcoin operations are doing exactly that, using lakes to cool the gear

              • How interesting you are not wrong. You aren't correct but you aren't wrong.
                There is a coin mining company does just that.ATLAS Holdings https://www.atlasholdingsllc.c... [atlasholdingsllc.com]

                The funny thing is they aren't affected by this law, as they also bought a power plant and it's not the rigs that are cooled by the lake water but the power plant.

                So you aren't wrong, there are miners that cool their power plant with lakewater.

                You aren't right though, what's more you are omitting to the point of being a liar.

                • In the case of Atlas Holdings, there is actually 3 nearby Universities/Colleges that use the same lake to cool their datacenters that are emitting heat at a much greater rate for decades. Which doesnâ(TM)t matter because the lake freezes every winter and winters in the area are getting colder.

                • good guess but try again. miners are taking half or more of power in areas and red lining power plant's water cooling.

      • Re:Isn't it nice we defeated the Soviet Union (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:17PM (#62507954)

        "Liberty" does not include using public infrastructure without restriction

        Liberty Includes having same access to Public Infrastructure as others -- meaning if you would be allowed to buy that Electricity to run Netflix servers or to crunch numbers for finding Mersenne primes or other scientific research; the government should Not be able to stop you choosing to use your systems to conduct Crypto "mining" instead, And it's certainly outside their role to decide "which kind of coins your number crunchers may process, and on which blockchain".

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by msauve ( 701917 )
          Bullshit. Equal access != use it however you want. If you have a driver's license, you can drive on a public roadway. But it doesn't mean you can violate traffic laws, which may require vehicles meeting NHTSA/DOT regulations, and disallow F1/NASCAR vehicles.

          • Re:Isn't it nice we defeated the Soviet Union (Score:4, Insightful)

            by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:08PM (#62508130)

            Bullshit. Equal access != use it however you want.
            Wrong... Of course it does. ...you can drive on a public roadway. But it doesn't mean you can violate traffic laws
            They can regulate the manner in which people drive: they cannot regulate the REASON for which you drive.

            For example, They cannot pass a law that says you are allowed to drive down a road to go buy groceries, but driving down the same road to go buy beer is Illegal.

            In the case of electricity, the code says how conductors are sized based on load. The government can require a suitable design to connect to the grid for safety reasons, they could limit the size of your installation or how much power people are allowed to use in theory...

            What they should not be able to say is you are allowed to build out X infrastructure on your private property capable of safely receiving this number of kilowatts as an industrial datacenter site, But only if your computers are not going to be doing X.

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by msauve ( 701917 )
              >They cannot pass a law that says you are allowed to drive down a road to go buy groceries, but driving down the same road to go buy beer is Illegal.

              Sure they can. The books are full of laws saying "Whoever does X with the intent Y...". Are you claiming California can't prohibit watering lawns while allowing toilet flushing? Legal citations needed, not bullshit unsupported claims.

            • The bill is about limited resources and pollution. There are plenty of precedents for limiting uses of resources need for other purposes.

              California has rationed gas when it was a limited resource. You can only fill your cars on even days if your car tag ends in an even number, etc.
              California has rationed water when it was a limited resource. You can use water for cooking and bathing, but during a drought you can't use it for watering your lawn.

              In NY electricity is a limited resource IF they have to burn

            • They can regulate the manner in which people drive: they cannot regulate the REASON for which you drive

              You're obviously not old enough to remember the oil shock of the 1970s when they tried that exactly. When they noticed it's pretty hard to check people's intent without a lot of effort, instead we got tempo limits.

        • Liberty Includes having same access to Public Infrastructure as others

          Indeed. You cannot use electricity provided by the state to mine bitcoin, just as others can't either. The access should be the same for everyone.

      • Yeah, buy your own coal-fired power plant, you hoodlums...

      • Why didn't I think of this? No electricity for them there gays.

        I guess another win for the NYC banking fat cats. Lord knows, they need all the help they can get.

      • " "Liberty" does not include using public infrastructure without restriction."

        Yes, it does.

        And it is not "public" infrastructure, it is privately owned electrical infrastructure that SHOULD be a matter of, "If you have the money to buy something, you can buy it." What we have here is more galloping socialism / communism controlling every aspect of citizens' lives. This sort of authoritarianism should not be permitted.

        The only restriction on such activity should be the buyer's monetary limitations.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by whitroth ( 9367 )

      The mob? Gee, you'd better capitalize that, the Mob, or Guido will show up at your door discussing how nice your knees are.

      And let's see, NY wants to crack down on crypto, created explicitly for the purpose of not paying taxes and money laundering, and in doing so, is a massive drain on the power grid, at a time when we're desperate to cut emissions. I can see how that's sooo naughty. Why, they might catch you, and either force you to pay the taxes you've been cheating on, or send you to jail.

      • Desperate to cut emissions ?

        You have a very low threshold for desperation, but don't despair, if you are lucky there will be a nuclear winter on the way.

  • Good. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 )
    Electricity is heavily subsidized. So is water and yes these guys use water to cool their data centers. And no they don't just recycle the water that's difficult and expensive and only the largest and best run Data centers do that.

    Large parts of the country are facing electricity and water shortages the last thing we need are parasites using the limited resource all offering little or no benefit to the community in exchange.

    • Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by lsllll ( 830002 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @07:53PM (#62507880)
      What you said doesn't make sense. No part of the U.S. is currently facing electricity shortage. And water is not scarce in NY. It may be in CA, but you're not gonna get the NY water shipped over there anyway. And to your closing sentence, does that mean everything I do must benefit the community in exchange? This is the price you pay for living in a free, capitalistic country. Money buys things, be it water, electricity, a Hummer, or a private jet. The ONLY thing you can do is prorate the water/electricity usage more steeply. This is just politicians virtue signaling. Obviously all cryptominers need to do is switch their electric supplier who says the electricity comes from renewables, which means others will just use non-renewable electricity.
      • Consistent rolling blackouts during heavy weather events. Events that are happening more and more often. Arizona and New Mexico are both talking about the prospect of similar rolling blackouts within the next 5 to 10 years.

        As for water yeah you're right New York doesn't have to worry about it but Texas does and they're dragging as many Bitcoin miners as their corrupt politicians can into their state. Better to nip that in the bud as quickly as you can before they get established and bribe all of your po
        • Bitcoin mining is one of the easiest use cases for smart metering / adapting usage based on real time power cost. People at home/work are loathe to turn off ac in the peak of summer, but crypto farms pausing mining for a couple hours wouldn't be a big deal.
          • not when they've got money to lobby for better rates with. You've got to remember how corrupt politics is.

            • Did you just argue that because politics is corrupt and miners can bribe politicians, we need to give the politicians power to control the industry? ::Applause:: ::Applause:: ::Applause:: ::Applause::

              That deserves a standing ovation.

              • The GP made the point that we could mitigate the damage Bitcoin miners do to the electric grid by charging them higher rates based on the fact that their Bitcoin miners. This would prevent them from using a lot of electricity during high demand times in theory.

                My point was that once they're established in your market they're going to immediately start lobbying for lower rates and they're going to get it. It's called regulatory capture. You can Google it it has a long and storied history.

                If Bitcoin m

                • They are a commercial user. If the politicians are setting their rates you live in a screwed up state.

        • The Texas grid was designed to operate with basically no safety margin, because that is what their particular economic and legal incentives encouraged.

          Here is an interesting podcast about it: https://99percentinvisible.org... [99percentinvisible.org]

      • No part of the U.S. is currently facing electricity shortage.

        By currently are you saying "today at 2pm" or are you being a dishonest git? The problems facing energy supply in the USA including the rolling blackouts used to manage electricity shortages in summer periods over the past 5 years have made international news (and has made USA the laughing stock of the first world).

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by lsllll ( 830002 )
          You are the one being a dishonest git. California had its first rolling blackout in 2020 after 19 years [politico.com]. Back then it was because of the Enron energy crisis. In 2020 it was a heat wave. But let me put it to you this way. California's population was almost 34mil in 2000 and almost 40mil in 2020 [wikipedia.org]. Now, the population of Illinois, for the same period went from 12.4 to 12.8 [wikipedia.org]. Either Californians are fucking like bunnies, or people are moving in to California, both of which would stress ANY public utility.

    • Large parts of the country are facing electricity and water shortages the last thing we need are parasites using the limited resource all offering little or no benefit to the community in exchange.

      I feel the same way about marketing, sales, lawyers, call centers, commercials, big data stalking firms, ad networks...etc They are all parasites that waste limited resources and offer little or no benefit to the community in exchange.

      What if others deem YOUR endeavors a waste of limited resources? Are they justified in making YOU stop?

      • A lot of that is outlawed in more sane societies. I get on average zero sales calls per year, for example. And yes, that is a net win for society, and I love those laws being around.

        Your endeavor needs to take the environment, and therefore also the time of other people, into account, or stopping it is justified.

        • A lot of that is outlawed in more sane societies.

          No it isn't.

          I get on average zero sales calls per year, for example.

          Good for you.

          And yes, that is a net win for society, and I love those laws being around.

          Where specifically is marketing, sales, lawyers, call centers, commercials, big data stalking firms and ad networks outlawed? North Korea?

      • What if others deem YOUR endeavors a waste of limited resources? Are they justified in making YOU stop?

        Yes. Yes they are. If what I do is determined to be to the detriment of the public, I should be required to stop doing it.

        • Yes. Yes they are. If what I do is determined to be to the detriment of the public, I should be required to stop doing it.

          Owning a computer is a waste of limited resources.

          We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

          Look in the mirror.

    • Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @01:31AM (#62508346)

      Electricity is heavily subsidized.

      Then we should end the subsidies rather than regulating how it is used.

      So is water

      Subsidies make scarce resources look artificially cheap, leading to waste. Water subsidies are why California grows five million tonnes of rice in the desert.

      California Rice [calrice.org]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        If you remove the subsidies and let the market set the price, many people won't be able to afford water and electricity.

        Water and electricity are things people can't live without, and there are monopolies on distribution. Attempts have been made to create markets by allowing customers to choose a supplier, but they don't really work.

        • "Some people are poor therefore we need to give cash money to the richest corporations and people in the country" is certainly a take.

          Water and electricity are not significant portions of people's budgets. Housing, food, and heating (depending on climate) are, and we don't have massive subsidies approaching the same level that we subsidies water and electricity (especially renewable energy).

          Even if it was, the solution you're looking for is a per-person credit, write-off, rebate, or prebate. There's problem

        • If you remove the subsidies and let the market set the price, many people won't be able to afford water and electricity.

          Then give money to the poorest 10% rather than giving cheap electricity to 100%.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            Experience has shown that any kind of means-tested benefit tends to not be taken up by everyone who needs it, and often the criteria exclude certain people accidentally too.

    • Electricity is heavily subsidized. So is water and yes these guys use water to cool their data centers. And no they don't just recycle the water that's difficult and expensive and only the largest and best run Data centers do that. Large parts of the country are facing electricity and water shortages the last thing we need are parasites using the limited resource all offering little or no benefit to the community in exchange.

      Of course if it wasn't subsidized there'd be no problem (and BTC mining probably wouldn't be profitable too). But instead, here we have another example of socialism valiantly fighting problems that are simply not present in normal systems.

    • Yes, & only banning them from using fossil fuels would just offset the fossil fuel use to other consumers. They just need an outright ban on access to public services to reduce the demand/strain on the whole system. If they want to mine crypto, they can build their own infrastructure to do it. If they want to play with highly risky financial instruments, they can insure it for the possible outcomes rather than looking to the govt to bail them out (& yes, I think the banks that take such risks should

    • Nobody just uses city water to cool data-centers, there just isnâ(TM)t a big enough water pipe for that to happen. Within a water cooled datacenter you use 1.5-2â manifolds PER rack. If you just let the water run through instead of cycling and re-cooling it youâ(TM)d need a massive amount of water both in and out. And electricity isnâ(TM)t subsidized, it is very well paid for.

  • Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @07:38PM (#62507836)

    Why ban? Just charge them extra for the electricity, and use that money on clean energy projects. How daft are politicians?

    • Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by SlashDotCanSuckMy777 ( 6182618 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:01PM (#62507902)

      What you suggest could happen: "Just charge them extra for the electricity, and use that money on clean energy projects."

      What would actually happen: "Just charge them extra for the electricity."

    • once the miners are established they'll start bribing politicians and get their rates cut.

      It's like any other invasive species, you can't get rid of them once they infest your city and state.

    • Why ban? Just charge them extra for the electricity, and use that money on clean energy projects. How daft are politicians?

      There's a reason reduce, reuse and recycle are words used in that order. It's far more efficient and better for the climate long term to *reduce* the energy demand than simply stipulate that if you use a ton of it we may put a windfarm up in your yard in 5 years.

  • The article leads with "Lawmakers sponsoring the legislation..." Not lawmakers, but People Crushers. This is a completely pointless act that will be useless to is declared cause within 5 years due to new energy tech, making the state of New York even more of a state to economically avoid than it is now. Too bad Albany isn't running a competitive clown show; they'd be kicken' it.
    • New York is a liberal state. They love control and telling people what to do. It's who they are.

      • Every law, is money in a politician and or bureaucrat's pocket.

      • And republitards love telling people what they can't do, like have abortions, or have gay sex, or dress differently, or be black. The list of things that republitards find objectionable is actually kind of long.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by imidan ( 559239 )

      a completely pointless act that will be useless to is declared cause within 5 years

      But, if you RTFS, you will see that the law is for a moratorium that lasts only 2 years...

      • They're way too busy lamboing to the Moon and not HFSPing* to read.

        *As in - they're NOT having fun staying poor, not NOT having fun staying poor.
        I know, I know... it's stupid and confusing, but that's cripple for ya.

  • Sounds like unconstitutional government overreach (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:00PM (#62507898)

    They're literally trying to regulate which math equations you would be allowed to use computers to present a solution to and which ones you wouldn't.

    I'm pretty sure the US constitution prohibits abridging free speech; discriminating against the kind of math equations you are disseminating is a particularly egregious action outside the lawful authority of government..

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ranton ( 36917 )

      They're literally trying to regulate which math equations you would be allowed to use computers to present a solution to and which ones you wouldn't.

      Kind of like when they literally regulate whether you are allowed to wave your hand in the air, whenever there is a knife in that hand and you are waving it at someone. I literally don't have freedom over my own body!

      Anything can be deconstructed into something silly if you want.

    • You can do math all you want if it is powered by 100 percent renewable energy! They are also not restricting you from grabbing a paper and pencil and doing your math that way. If you get to work right now, you might compute a block in your lifetime.

      They are regulating energy use, which is not protected under free speech; covering the world in black smoke is also not protected under free speech.
    • with access to the (heavily subsidized) power grid?

      And what's with all these shmucks who trot out "Freeze Peach" every time they're told they can't do whatever the hell they want no matter what the consequences? I especially love them because they're all for state's rights up until it interferes with whatever it is they personally want to do, or what they want to make other people do.

      I wouldn't even call them hypocrites. They don't think enough about anything to be hypocrites. It's pure double think

    • You say "math equations" as if the result is something useful. The USA regulates all manner of wasteful activities especially those used with public infrastructure.

      Honestly fuck your freedoms.

    • It is unConstitutional, but not necessarily in the way you think. All PoW mining falls under the (potential) regulation of the Feds since it requires communication over the Internet with nodes that are likely located in other states besides NY (and possibly in other countries!). It is beyond the power of the State of New York to specifically regulate such activity

  • These are initiatives that currently have no value outside of increasing the profitability of crime
  • Nobody wants to mine BTC in New York anyway when they can head to a red state where energy is 1/2 the price. I mean, sure you can't get a decent bagel, but come on.

    • Re:Waste of time (Score:4, Funny)

      by evil_aaronm ( 671521 ) on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:44PM (#62508236)
      Energy is half the price because NY, CA, and the other productive states subsidize the welfare red states.

      • Yes, but you know what would happen when we stop doing that, those unwashed, uneducated and superstitious masses from the south would migrate north and take our jobs.

        Let's rather pay them to stay where they are. What purpose do you think development aid is for?

      • Source? Because people had a conniption when Trump canceled the state tax credit, both NY and CA suddenly were talking potential bankruptcy, then COVID came, they were once again the biggest takers. If theyâ(TM)re so productive, why do they need handouts?

        If theyâ(TM)re so productive and provide everyone welfare, why are people moving out?

        • I'm providing this, but I suspect you don't care about facts.

          https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by guruevi ( 827432 )

            Yep, the top 30 links is all media propaganda and opinion pieces. Luckily the government publishes stats:

            2014, federal aid to the states accounted for roughly 31 percent of all state general revenues

            California is the top state of federal money received with ~$43B, Texas, the next runner up receives about half that at $23B even though Texas is nearly 60% larger.

  • The State of New York can't regulate activity specific to the Internet that requires access to systems located in other states/countries. That's the purview of the Federal government.

  • Well, isn't that convenient for the people who are already mining? Any bets on who's behind this?

  • You have a crappy algorithm that uses more $$ in electricity then mining real gold would cost. So you try to hit with the Springfield will be left behind without a monorail argument.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by ebvwfbw ( 864834 )

      You have a crappy algorithm that uses more $$ in electricity then mining real gold would cost.
      So you try to hit with the Springfield will be left behind without a monorail argument.

      Oh man does it take more than mining real gold. Last I looked it's $23,000 per block. It's really stupid to keep it around. They should just shut it down world wide tomorrow. Anyone with money in it - Tough. Rug pulled out from under them.

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