Senate Passes Bill To Make Daylight Saving Time Permanent (axios.com) 307
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Axios: The Senate passed a measure that would make Daylight Savings Time permanent across the U.S. The bill -- the Sunshine Protection Act co-sponsored by Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.) and Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) -- was passed by unanimous consent. It would make Daylight Savings time permanent in 2023. If the legislation clears the House and is signed into law by President Biden, it will mean Americans will no longer have to change their clocks twice a year.
Health groups have called for an end to the seasonal shifting of clocks, a ritual first adopted in the U.S. more than a century ago. At a house hearing last week, health experts cited sleep deprivation and health problems as negative effects associated with changing clocks. Nearly two-thirds of Americans want to stop changing their clocks, according to a 2021 Economist/YouGov poll. Axios has learned that Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.) "will be leading a letter to Speaker Pelosi calling for immediate House passage of his bill."
By making DST permanent, legislators are prioritizing more daylight in the evening, which could improve our health and allow for more sunshine during the most productive hours of the day. According to a new study published yesterday, sleeping in the dark may reduce your risk of heart disease and diabetes. "The results from this study demonstrate that just a single night of exposure to moderate room lighting during sleep can impair glucose and cardiovascular regulation, which are risk factors for heart disease, diabetes and metabolic syndrome," said study author Dr Phyllis Zee.
Health groups have called for an end to the seasonal shifting of clocks, a ritual first adopted in the U.S. more than a century ago. At a house hearing last week, health experts cited sleep deprivation and health problems as negative effects associated with changing clocks. Nearly two-thirds of Americans want to stop changing their clocks, according to a 2021 Economist/YouGov poll. Axios has learned that Rep. Vern Buchanan (R-Fla.) "will be leading a letter to Speaker Pelosi calling for immediate House passage of his bill."
By making DST permanent, legislators are prioritizing more daylight in the evening, which could improve our health and allow for more sunshine during the most productive hours of the day. According to a new study published yesterday, sleeping in the dark may reduce your risk of heart disease and diabetes. "The results from this study demonstrate that just a single night of exposure to moderate room lighting during sleep can impair glucose and cardiovascular regulation, which are risk factors for heart disease, diabetes and metabolic syndrome," said study author Dr Phyllis Zee.
Why not stick to standard time? (Score:2)
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People in northern latitudes do not like waking up to and driving to work in darkness for 1/3 of the year. And the decreased visibility causes demonstrable increases in accidents and even fatalities, not to mention depression linked to seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
That is why daylight savings is being chosen.
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So, don't. Convince your boss to start work an hour later.
>And the decreased visibility causes demonstrable increases in accidents and even fatalities, not to mention depression linked to seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
That's all just pure bullshit. There's exactly the same amount of light in a day, whether you're on Standard or Daylight time.
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People in northern latitudes do not like waking up to and driving to work in darkness for 1/3 of the year.
So, don't. Convince your boss to start work an hour later.
No, you convince your boss to start work an hour earlier if you don't like it.
After all, I hear that there's exactly the same amount of light in a day, whether you're on Standard or Daylight time.
Once we stop changing the clocks, you figure out what is going to work for you, and stop worrying about everyone else.
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Daylight savings makes it darker in the mornings and lighter at night. Most people will notice they get more daylight when they come home, where do you think you get that daylight from by waking up earlier, its kind of confusing. so here is a diagram, daylight is +1 since you spring forward:
normal time .: 5,6,7,8,9, ... ....
daylight time: 6,7,8,9,10,
So if you are waking up at 6 you are really waking up at 5 normal time and its darker.
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Re:Why not stick to standard time? (Score:5, Informative)
When I lived on the gulf coast, at the very east edge of central time, winter sunset was around 4:50 PM, which was absolutely brutal... not only did I have to ride home from work in the dark (I got off at 5), but the only daylight available at home on the weekdays was in the morning, which is the least useful time of day for doing anything outside.
Re: Why not stick to standard time? (Score:2)
Yes and no.
It makes more usable daylight. If the sun rises at 6am so what but if it sets at 6pm then you lose hours of outdoor productivity at night after work. However if the sun now rises at 7am but lasts to 70pm you gain that much more time outdoors aftwr work.
The reason for the shifts to begin with was to give more light for evening sports and activities in the spring and fall. Lastly those on the eastern edge of a timezone have big issues of the sun setting early compared the western edge. Which get
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It makes more usable daylight. If the sun rises at 6am so what but if it sets at 6pm then you lose hours of outdoor productivity at night after work.
As someone who regularly gets up before 6:00 am, I disagree. Morning daylight is just as useful as late evening daylight.
I believe the reason originally given was to save on energy, like artificial lighting. But if you need more time in th
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Do you regularly ask ridiculous rhetorical questions that literally nobody would ever ask? Tucker Carlson, is that you?
It shifts those hours of daylight a bit more into the hours that the majority of people are awake.
The question I have is where Canada and Mexico are on this. Seems weird to have to shift your clock when you drive over a border going north or south, rather than east / west.
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It really doesn't for me. If the sun is up, I probably am, too.
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Too easy, people would rather continue to be stupid about how time works. Contrary to the reality of our orbital mechanics.
An alternative if we all chose to operate on some standard world time. People could learn the local noon for the area that they live in, call it a "Midday convention" or something fancy. Base your meal times around that midday, we're already pretty flexible on when we have breakfast and dinner. And some of us already start work at 10am or at 8am or even 6am. There is so much variability
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I, for example, have never had a 9 to 5 job. The closest I've had was 8:30 to 5:00 with a half-hour lunch. Most of the time I've worked 8:00 to 5:30 or so, with an hour for lunch.
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Oddly, this is a second swing at this - it was done back in the 70s and repealed due to everyone's favorite reasoning for regressive change: "think of the children!"
Apparently people were very concerned with kids walking to school in the dark [washingtonian.com], and instead of installing street illumination and people not driving like total assholes at 7:00 in the morning, we reverted back to daylight savings clock shifting for the next 40+ years.
They repealed it the same year it was passed.
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We don't want children waiting for the bus in the dark or walking home in the dark. God forbid parents ask each school board to adjust the schedules according to what is appropriate for their regional needs.
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The Chicago area, under Central Daylight Saving Time, currently has sunrise around 7:00 am and sunset around 7:00 pm. That's about an hour off having noon at 12:00.
But Chicago is at the eastern edge of the time zone. It will only be farther off on the western edge of central time, and people in those areas might not be happy with how late the sun rises in the winter. So let those states go to whatever time zone they want
Re: Why not stick to standard time? (Score:2)
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So have the banks and government buildings in Long Beach open at 5am. And people can go bed at around 8-9pm.
Probably ditch the whole AM/PM thing too because before/after noon is kind of meaningless.
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Not a problem, it can be 4am or 2pm, it makes no difference really. The numbers here are all artificial. People rarely worried about standardizing any of this until rail traffice became common. Just need to know morning, noon (the real noon, not 12:00), afternoon, evening, night, bedtime, dawn, etc. Throw in gloaming if you like.
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Honestly this is dumb, and so is DST (Score:3)
It's so bizarre that instead of just adjusting work/school/whatever hours to open and close later in winter, people prefer to join hands in mass delusion to literally pretend the time is something other than what it is.
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It's so bizarre that instead of just adjusting work/school/whatever hours to open and close later in winter, people prefer to join hands in mass delusion to literally pretend the time is something other than what it is.
What is your suggested granularity?
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Planck time since the Big Bang.
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It should be customary to use Googol Planks. 1 googol plank would be 1.7E49 years. A substantial amount of time, longer than how long it takes subatomic particles to decay (10e40 years) but shorter than the evaporation of the largest black holes (10e100).
P.S. I hope my math is right.
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It was necessary because management is packed with pointy headed morons who all refuse to be the first movers (except when it comes to grabbing credit for other's work).It was actually easier to move the clock out from under them.
These are the same people who for years took losses because they demanded the grocery store be open with one minimum wage cashier on Thankgiving day so they don't miss that pivotal sale of one bag of brown'n'serve rolls. There's no way they could emotionally handle closing a whole
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It doesn't do exactly what i want, it just makes the delusion permanent.
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Because there's some universal law declaring what 8:00 is?
It's all labels, and the idea of time zones is specifically to label reasonably similar periods of sunlight on a spinning body. We'd actually be better off if we just all adopted UTC and got ok with the idea that 7:30a might be dinner for some people, and sunrise for others. Kind of like how the southern hemisphere is fine with summer being in December - they don't shift their calendars around because of arbitrary time period labels.
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In exactly the wrong way. All those business and school hours were developed based on standard time, where 12:00 was a close approximation of noon/midday.
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Even if this is an improvement, I'm not convinced lay people will gain any better understanding of how time works.
DST = MOAR daylight (Score:2)
Extra sunlight! (Score:2)
Ugh (Score:2)
Not only would i prefer this done the other way to favor an earlier sunrise I think a shit ton of parents are going to realize they prefer that too when little Suzy and Timmy have to walk to school in the dark.
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If this becomes enough of a problem, it seems to me the schools could just start school an hour later? IMO, that would be a good move anyway, as lack of sleep is cited as a big problem for school kids.
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43rd parallel in February, it's dark in the morning. If parents have a problem with it,
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The 1970s called and wants it's moronic "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" argument back.
Worst case scenario (Score:3)
This is my personal worst-case scenario. I get that different people have difference preferences, but as someone who's perpetually sleep-deprived it's extremely difficult to wake up in the dark. Mornings in general are already pretty brutal, but this means that during the winter my kid's gotta be at school before the sun comes up. I would have preferred staying on standard time year-round, and as much as I dislike changing clocks twice per year, that's preferable to trying to get up in the dark.
Are there "morning owls" out there who have equivalent difficulty staying awake until sunset? I would have thought that the people who would most enjoy permanent DST would be early risers who would also be fine with the early light.
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FWIW, I'm a morning person. I wake up and am instantly awake and ready to take on the day.
I can also fall asleep instantly and sleep through the night.
The shifting of clocks, either forward or backwards, really messes with this ability. I'd love to see it killed off.
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but this means that during the winter my kid's gotta be at school before the sun comes up
This means nothing of the sort. It just means we're not going to dick around with changing the clocks 2x a year.
If you don't like the start time of your kid's school, petition the school board to change it. Get like-minded parents to make it an issue. There is absolutely nothing that says kids have to get up before the sun rises in this or any other bill.
Plenty of schools are already adjusting start times because they realize that school starts unreasonably early for teenagers based on their typical sleep c
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This is my personal worst-case scenario. I get that different people have difference preferences, but as someone who's perpetually sleep-deprived it's extremely difficult to wake up in the dark.
You need to buy a programmable light that can simulate the early sunrise. It really helped my partner who has a similar problem. I don't have any problems with falling asleep or sleeping with direct sunlight in my face, so I don't mind either way.
Also, in winter we use sun lamps to extend the day by about 2 hours.
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Which is an easier solution to your problem:
1. installing a timer switch in your bedroom that turns on the lights when you need to wake up, thus you are not waking up in the dark;
or
2. Having an entire country of people fuck around with their clocks twice a year, and being disoriented behind the time change for a few days afterward each time.
Insert thinking emoji here.
Also, if the start time of your kid's school is problematic, I suggest talking to the school board about that.
Idiots. (Score:2)
No, DST doesn't do any of that. It doesn't change how much daylight there is, at all. It only changes the time on the clock. Who's the idiot who wrote this blather?
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Obviously, it can't literally cause the sun to shine longer each day!
The point is, there's an assumption that most businesses in America will continue to operate based on the same clock start and end times they always have. If you make that assumption, then you wind up having more daylight around the 5PM typical end of a work day. (And conversely, if people are still waking up when the clock says 6:30 or 7AM in order to get to work by 8 or 9AM, they're still going to have dark outside right up until the t
Excellent (Score:2)
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Our provinces have studied it to death
What results have they found?
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Our provinces have studied it to death
What results have they found?
Same as in the US. Almost no one wants time changes. About 20% want standard time. The remaining almost 80% want DST forever. I am in the 80% group, because I already get up in the dark, and having an extra hour after work to be able to go outside would be nice.
2/3rds of Americans support this (Score:3)
Therefore, it will not be made into law.
Heaven forbid the gov't does something the American people want (for a change)
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The most shocking thing about this story is that it passed the Senate with unanimous consent, which is parliamentarian-speak for "nobody chose this bill to grind an axe on by obstructing and forcing weeks of pointless debate and possible filibuster just to try to draw attention to their own pet issue that is at-best tangentially related." You know, like Rand Paul and Ted Cruz try to do to literally every damn thing that moves.
The fact that none of the usual cranky assholes didn't use this as a publicity st
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Holy shit (Score:2)
I've groused about this for years, but never expected anything to actually change.
Idiocracy (Score:3)
Do people really not understand that this means they'll have to get up an hour earlier six months of the year?
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Why would it do that? Most people's schedules are set by the clock, not the sun. This will have zero impact on my mornings, but it's going to make winter afternoons far more useful and way less depressing.
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Do you really not understand that the hour at which anything happens is just an arbitrary label, and it's the change of that label itself that everyone hates?
Once we're all on that regulated time labeling, everything will still happen in the same sequence, and you don't have to "get up an hour earlier" ever again, because you're going to sleep at roughly the same time, and waking up roughly the same amount of time later.
DST = More Cancer. Standard Time = Health. (Score:3)
https://herf.medium.com/why-st... [medium.com]
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I'm pretty sure scientists have heard of electricity.
"The question is: which schedule should we choose? Legislators in several places around the world appear to favor permanent “daylight time”, but this schedule is associated with more cancer, diabetes, and obesity. There’s a simple reason: for most of us, waking up in the dark is tough on our internal clocks and our sleep.
The consequences of this kind of sleep and light disruption are very serious. Shift work can raise the lifetime ri
Reversal? (Score:2)
In the 1970s — the last time Congress made Daylight Savings Time permanent — the decision was reversed in less than a year after the early morning darkness proved dangerous for school children and public sentiment changed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
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Learn from history does not mean obey. (Score:2)
It is not like things change. Not like kids are far less likely to walk to school and far more likely to bus. Not like more people are in urban areas and not like urban areas have increased street lighting.
Do you know how many times people tried to legalize pot? Legalize gay marriage? Legalize inter-racial marriage?
If you fail once, try try again.
DST works, but not the way we're doing it (Score:2)
Everyone seems to think that Daylight Saving Time should be an all-or-nothing approach, but they fail to think about why DST has become so hated.
In a nutshell - it starts too early, and ends too late in the year in the U.S. Originally DST began in April, after the day had become long enough where shifting the extra daylight hour from the morning to the evening had much less impact on work or school. Starting it in early March means lots of people get to enjoy the next month waking up, going to school, and
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People hate Daylight Savings Time because a huge chunk of people don't understand time zones and think "Daylight Savings Time" means "changing the clocks".
"I hate Daylight Savings Time - I hate how it gets dark early in the winter" is the most commonly said thing about DST. People don't hate DST, they hate Standard Time, but they don't understand time zones, so they complain about the wrong thing.
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You will see. Once people are sitting in their offices next winter looking out into the pitch blackness outside, the sentiment will change real quick.
As OP said, this has been tried before. Both times, people ended up hating it. We just suck at figuring out why we hate it, and we blame the clock change.
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Originally DST began in April
Then someone told Dubya that it would save energy if the week was moved. Thanks, asshole. Now it's ~15 years later, and even more stuff has DST dates baked into it. Regularly updated computer operating systems can adapt, but after a while they're fucked when they can't get updates.
I know how much of a pain in the ass it is specifically because I had to patch something once to use the old dates. The company was starting a trial site in Mexico, and had to use our 10yo product at first because the next genera
Pfft, kids are tougher than they get credit for. (Score:2)
I had to walk a mile in the dark to wait a bus stop at a CHURCH or be last on the bus and get no seat at all (no joke there were literally kids standing or sitting on the floor in the aisles).
There were still plenty of kidnappers, murders, and even worse, Reaganomics lurking in the dark. They'll be fine, if they lived through CV19, they'll be fine on the bus stop in the dark.
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Can't we just be happy that the idiocy of "spring forward, fall back" is finally likely to end? It's been stupid for decades.
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But... it was a plot point in National Treasure (2004)! Future generations wont understand!
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Can't we just be happy that the idiocy of "spring forward, fall back" is finally likely to end? It's been stupid for decades.
Don't you get it? This is the libs trying to get early to bed people to contract Dibeetees!
Just one night of sleeping in any light will do it to yinz!
To the basement Francine! I ain't putting up with no more of this government intervention crep!
8^) 8^/
Re: Great - AZ will be permanently on california t (Score:2)
I am not happy.
It's bad enough in winter mornings already driving to work before there's light.
I would much prefer them to extend real time forever rather than daylight savings, but once this passes it will be too late forever.
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Nothing is forever when the United States Senate is involved.
They already did this once in the 70s and repealed it the same year, because THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!! [washingtonian.com]
We seriously had another Act of Congress and 40+ years of clock changing idiocy because it was far more simple to have everyone adjust every clock in existence twice a year instead of starting school an hour later instead. Or install some street lamps.
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Yeah, me too.
Then again I already use bright heat lamps on a timer to simulate morning sunlight in the winter so I can wake up properly, and it might be nice to still have some sunlight in the evenings in the winter. Going to work just as the sun comes up and then going home just as it sets really is a lose-lose proposition.
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It doesn't solve many problem except that. Time zones are artificial in the first place, just get rid of them completely! Of course this will never happen. So we will have time zones where it is dark when one person wakes up but the sun is quite high up already when another person in the same zone wakes up. What is good for a major city in a zone may be bad for a different major city. Time zones completely throw out the notion of where the sun might actually be in the sky. Now with permanently being o
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Otherwise just look out the window to know what time it is.
Look at you with your fancy offices with those fancy windows.
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Do remember that when it turns out that DST was protecting thousands of lives, mostly of children, from death and maiming in traffic accidents.
Also, when suicides skyrocket in upcoming winters, as it turns out that the north of the continent is suddenly living without access to sunlight for about a third of the year.
But hey... At least you won't have to change the time on that one clock you have that doesn't update time automatically.
What a savings!
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I'm wondering what Canada and Mexico will do. Seems silly to cross the border and have to reset your watch, but I guess there's places where people have been doing that for east / west travel so...
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I'm wondering what Canada and Mexico will do. Seems silly to cross the border and have to reset your watch, but I guess there's places where people have been doing that for east / west travel so...
In Canada, the reason commonly given for not getting rid of the time change is to be in sync with the US.
So I expect we will do the same, at the same time.o
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The legislation is already in place in British Columbia, and we're just waiting for Washington, Oregon and California and then our legislation becomes active. So it looks like next fall is the last time change here in BC.
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>we are basically agreeing to be wrong all of the time
We *already* agree to be wrong all the time. Noon is when the sun is at it's highest point - that only ever agrees with clock time in a very narrow stripe (technically a widthless line) right down the middle of each perfect theoretical time zone (before the boundaries get redrawn to follow political borders, making things even more wrong). Everyone else's clocks strike noon too late or too early.
Now, personally I'd prefer standard time since I'd ra
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We *already* agree to be wrong all the time. Noon is when the sun is at it's highest point - that only ever agrees with clock time in a very narrow stripe (technically a widthless line) right down the middle of each perfect theoretical time zone (before the boundaries get redrawn to follow political borders, making things even more wrong). Everyone else's clocks strike noon too late or too early.
That's assuming a perfectly round orbit around the Sun. As the orbit is somewhat eccentric, even on the stripe down the perfect time zone, noon varies by 20 minutes or so over the year.
Hmm, looking at last years almanac (Canadian edition), it looks more like 31 minutes in Ottawa. Middle of February, add 17 minutes, end of October, subtract 14 minutes to convert sundial time to clock time in the middle of the time zone. Might vary with latitude as well.
Here's an article from NASA which says about 15 minutes
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>. Staying on DST in the winter is pointless because the one hour you gain isn't enough to make any significant difference.
Well, it means you actually have a little sunlight in the evening instead of going to work just as the sun's coming up, and leaving just as it's setting.
More importantly, it means eliminating the insanity of changing the clocks twice a year which is unpleasant for everyone and causes quite a few deaths.
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Yes, this is true. Arizona is in effect being pushed to the Pacific timezone (assuming the bill doesn't address this).
But this outcome is better for Arizona than being pushed ahead an hour. We do NOT want to go ahead permanently. The evenings in the summer are hot enough, and we get enough sunlight already. Summer nights at 8PM would still be 110+! No way...
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The great part is, most electronic devices that can touch the internet will reset to whatever time they think it should be no matter how many times you "correct" them. At least I still have a few dumb clocks around the house. Not so much at work anymore. They all tap an NTP server. I'll probably be playing "time zone roulette" for the foreseeable future.
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Anything that supports NTP should also support the notion of daylight savings time, and if the locale you're in observes it. This is simply a change to the locale to always observe it. It should take about 10 seconds worth of software update to reflect this new scheme.
Of course, we'll soon get a shitload of stories (and dupes, of course - this is Slashdot) of crap IoT devices that the creators of long since ran out of other people's money and abandoned their products that won't be updated, followed by a r
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Hence - "time zone roulette." Trying to guess which time zones have been properly updated and which haven't yet, while trying to find the time you're supposed to be running.
I would hope the major NTP servers get updated quickly, but I've seen that fail here or there in the past.
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Half of my electronic devices will try to auto-adjust for DST anyway, and I'll just have to run around re-setting clocks in either scenario.
Every one of mine that has a DST option/setting supports "Manual" as one of the selections. I use that now because they all were made before the more recent changes to the switch over dates.
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Every clock I have, except for my oven and microwave, already automatically adjusts. This is a software update away from being fixed, and they have 18 months to get that don't-do-anything patch out.
I think we'll be fine.
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It's really too bad that the federal government mandates school start times and local communities can't set the start time whenever they want. Imagine how convenient it would be for northern communities if they could just start school an hour later in the winter if their community wanted them to.
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The irony being that Congress also mandates Daylight Savings Time rules.
California, Oregon, and Washington had all passed legislation previous to this to make PDT permanent, but it wasn't to be enacted until Congress granted a waiver. I guess that is going to happen now.
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I was in 2nd grade the year Nixon kept us on DST into January. It really wasn't a big deal. The kids enjoyed the novelty and especially enjoyed that they got to take entirely unnecessary flashlights to school.
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Or, even better: just have school start an hour later so it's in the exact same window of daylight it is today.
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Big Clock is going to shut this bill down with their extensive lobbying.
You laugh but there's a group of lobbyists that've shut this down every time it's come up.
All from the ski industry.
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We already touched all that code in 2007 to adjust the start and end dates for DST in the US. So everything handling times and dates is 15 years old at most. Yes, people will need to go update their code, but it shouldn't be too hard to do.
Job security for everyone who manages the libraries, I guess.
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Date/time libraries usually depend on system libraries and configuration. There are far more problems with software that handles time the way it is currently done (hour back and forward) than the alternative. Anyone who has ever had to work with time in a computer program knows this is a massive pain in the neck. Twice a year, stuff that runs at 2 am tends to break. People complain about the time shifting portion, but no one thinks about how IT personnel all over the world are rudely awakened from their
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Nope, because any modern implementation usually has a locale definition that tells the operating system whether DST is observed or not, and when it's observed. This is a few simple changes from operating system vendors to those locale definitions, and it's all done.
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