As Debate Drags on In Europe, the Fate of Daylight Saving Time Remains In Limbo (go.com) 89
Why didn't the European Union drop its annual observation of Daylight Saving Time? ABC News reports:
[I]n 2018, the European Parliament voted to end the practice after a poll of 4.8 million Europeans showed overwhelming support for scrapping it. Critics of the ritual have pointed to scientific studies showing the negative physical and psychological effects of switching back and forth to mark daylight saving time. "The time change will be abolished," the European Commission's then-president, Jean-Claude Juncker, told German public broadcaster ZDF in 2018. "People do not want to keep changing their watches."
Although the decision was supposed to take effect in 2021, the coronavirus pandemic has delayed its implementation, pushing it to the bottom of the political agenda for many countries. The fate of daylight saving time in Europe remains unclear.
Member states of the European Union are also struggling to agree on which time to adopt.
"We agree on the time change, but we are stuck on whether to stay on summer or winter time," Karima Delli, a French member of the European Parliament, told French broadcaster BFM TV in 2019. "We have a real problem." While Germany is calling for summer time, Greece and Portugal want to keep switching between the two. Forcing all member states to implement the same time would be complicated, as some would get less daylight than others. So the European Commission, tasked with executing the decision from Parliament, has asked countries to align with their neighbors. But even that would be tricky.
For instance, since the U.K.'s withdrawal from the European Union in 2020, the island nation is no longer concerned with the European Parliament's decision on daylight saving time. Yet neighboring Ireland, a European Union member state, will be impacted by a change to the current system, potentially complicating border crossings...
Only about 70 countries in the world still observe daylight saving time, but many are reconsidering it.
Although the decision was supposed to take effect in 2021, the coronavirus pandemic has delayed its implementation, pushing it to the bottom of the political agenda for many countries. The fate of daylight saving time in Europe remains unclear.
Member states of the European Union are also struggling to agree on which time to adopt.
"We agree on the time change, but we are stuck on whether to stay on summer or winter time," Karima Delli, a French member of the European Parliament, told French broadcaster BFM TV in 2019. "We have a real problem." While Germany is calling for summer time, Greece and Portugal want to keep switching between the two. Forcing all member states to implement the same time would be complicated, as some would get less daylight than others. So the European Commission, tasked with executing the decision from Parliament, has asked countries to align with their neighbors. But even that would be tricky.
For instance, since the U.K.'s withdrawal from the European Union in 2020, the island nation is no longer concerned with the European Parliament's decision on daylight saving time. Yet neighboring Ireland, a European Union member state, will be impacted by a change to the current system, potentially complicating border crossings...
Only about 70 countries in the world still observe daylight saving time, but many are reconsidering it.
An semi-interesting investigation (Score:4, Interesting)
It would be interesting to go back over the past 20+ years of Slashdot and log who has submitted these biannual "let's whine about daylight saving time" stories to the site - I'm wondering if we'd see the same two or three people, over and over.
I'm too lazy to do it myself; but hey - I came up with the idea, someone else can do the legwork.
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Re:An semi-interesting investigation (Score:4, Informative)
It would be interesting to go back over the past 20+ years of Slashdot and log who has submitted these biannual "let's whine about daylight saving time" stories to the site - I'm wondering if we'd see the same two or three people, over and over.
I'm too lazy to do it myself; but hey - I came up with the idea, someone else can do the legwork.
Almost all posted [slashdot.org] by msmash and Editor Dave. The exceptions seem to be other editors like BeauHD posting where there was an actual change rather than just whining. When there's a poster involved it seems to be an "anonymous reader" or a "New submitter". More than 10 years back and there's lots of Solskill and timothy posts. If you go back to 2005 you can find an actual CmdrTaco story but again it's about an actual legal change and it's one of the few from a real reader.
To be honest I thought you were bullshitting, but looking at it, clearly over the the years Slashdot has become the secret platform of a group of anti-DST fanatics, pretending to do advertising. The fightback starts now. How about double DST?
Specific, not generic [Re:An semi-interesting...] (Score:2)
It would be interesting to go back over the past 20+ years of Slashdot and log who has submitted these biannual "let's whine about daylight saving time" stories to the site
Almost all posted [slashdot.org] by msmash and Editor Dave
This particular story actually has content. It's not whining about DST per se, but is about the European Union's inability to do implement something that they already agreed to do..
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My State also has agreed to stop changing the clock and stay on DST. But only once two neighboring states also do it, and the Federal government agrees.
So it is a lot like the situation in Europe.
Re: An semi-interesting investigation (Score:1)
And there, friends, is more insight about how Donald Trump got elected than you will find in 5 years of incessant news coverage asking the question.
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anti-DST fanatics
DST forever!!!
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> I'm too lazy to do it myself; but hey - I came up with the idea, someone else can do the legwork.
At least you get the patent.
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Oh, someone will probably just claim prior art...
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I remember the days before DST. It was less disruptive.
I remember why they started DST in the USA -- to save the children! The dozen of so that were run over waiting a the school bus stops in the morning. Personally, I preferred to drive to work in the dark if I could drive home in the sunlight but I wasn't rich and powerful and in charge or had an ego so big that I wanted to force other people to do what I wante
I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
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I don't get all the debates about which time to adopt. Just pick one
If only there was a way to put it in the middle... (shrug)
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So they can invade Poland?
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Yep. If they change it by 30 minutes then nobody will feel like they "lost" the debate.
(or "won" it - nobody likes a gloater)
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I don't mind the change from summer to winter time, with an hour of extra sleep. I just hate the switch to summer time.
So what I would propose is: keep the yearly switch from summer to winter time, abolish the changeover in the spring, but change the definition of the second so that it's slightly shorter, adding up to an hour per year.
Just a thought.
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If you change the second, you have to change the meter too, so that SI units still work...
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Exactly. Or just not bother with timezones at all.
Because if you look at the timezone map, it's really just the political map in the end. China spans 3 timezones, yet officially the entire country is one timezone.
The only reason we have timezones is well, "tradition". It's tradition we work 9-5. It's tradition that the sun is overhead at noon.
In the end, it's really just an arbitrary number with no relation to anything. Especially with daylight saving time. We just end up calling 12 noon an arbitrary time o
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From what I remember, there were no time zones before the popularization of trains. At that time, every town can run their own local clock which can follow their local mean solar time. But starting with train rails connecting them all, the train companies need a somewhat unified time across towns or train schedule doesn't make sense.
China using only one official time zone is an indication of the governance there is more centralized. USA spanning many shows the governance is less centralized so individual
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Printed signs on doorways don't change themselves. Sure, you could print "summer time" and "winter time" on them, but that's messy.
Why is it so hard for you to deal with a simple change of the clocks? It's automatic on about 99.999% of digital devices.
This is all just a bunch of whining.
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Interesting)
So for clocks, I had to manually adjust:
- clocks of microwave, oven (5 years old)
- clock of car (7 year old ford focus)
- old analog clock in livingroom (No data)
- Clock of ventilation unit (5 years old)
- Heating thermostat (5 years old)
The only clocks I did not have to change are computers and smartphones.
But that's not the reason I want to get rid of the summer and winter time. That is maybe 5 minutes of work.
It takes me a week to adjust to getting up earlier or later. My kids are annoying at mornings and evenings for a few days, and I have little advantage of it and we have lived without it before. Let's do this.
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> I don't get all the debates about which time to adopt. Just pick one
There are two camps:
A) Noon should be closest to solar apogee in an area.
B) DST gives me an extra hour of sunlight in the day.
It's hard to care except B is so pathetically stupid. The public schools are the top cheerleaders for it "because football".
> a winter and summer schedule
Most of the stores I shop at do this. I check online before I go.
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So next EU meeting on the topic: which is which. Proposal by Germany: heads is summertime , tails: wintertime. Proposal by Hungary: just the opposite. Once that's finished, we can
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DST was promoted in the USA "to save the children!". There were around a dozen deaths of school children waiting at bus stops. Of course, after DST was instituted, some of those deaths shifted to the afternoon times. Of course, the nonsensical "B" option was supported by the Governments' officials.
Doing away with DST is the best choice IMHO but because it actually makes sense, I doubt it will ever happen.
If Europe does succeed in going back to the
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because football
never heard that excuse before.
It was the only part of the debate he got right!
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"There are two camps:
A) Noon should be closest to solar apogee in an area.
B) DST gives me an extra hour of sunlight in the day.
It's hard to care except B is so pathetically stupid."
Thank you for stating this so plainly. The measurement of time is a human construct that is based around a plainly observable fact about the solar cycle - there is a point at which the sun is at its zenith. We called this the "meridian", and then started measuring hours (24 per day) before the meridian (Ante Meridian) and after
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It all sounds so smartish until you learn about time zones and find out that solar zenith is not, and will not again be, a part of the system.
And then you realize that the only important factors are standardization, convenience, and subjective satisfaction with the result.
Let's NOT give up the tie of the time measurement to the sun's zenith
Nobody is going back to local time, so it is completely irrelevant and merely part of your own subjective insistence on being in control. The obviously more reasonable argument is that society has lots of activities based around the time
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This system is nothing more and nothing less than a constant, biannual reminder of these things:
- the government can freely change something fundamental as "what time is noon"
- the will of the constituents is completely irrelevant, unimportant and has no influence on the government *at all*
- "wrong" government regulations will never be corrected, even if it costs little and saves lives
- petitions, science, lawsuits, protests are ineffective even against such a relatively irrelevant thing
The entire thing's p
Re: I don't get it (Score:2)
Personally I'd prefer to do away with "savings" time, and redo timezones so they were based purely on longitude in a way where Noon meant the sun is directly o
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DST is the time we follow in summer in most of the US.
So without DST, the sun would rise an hour earlier in the morning, and set an hour earlier in the evening. So by the end of July, the sun would set around 8pm instead of 9pm in much of the US. Sunrise would be around 5am instead of 6 am.
So if you want to have more daylight
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I don't get all the debates about which time to adopt. Just pick one, it is just a number. Just offset your schedule accordingly. You could actually work with a winter and summer schedule, if your job and family schedule allows it.
For some people that might work. But most will have to deal with office hours, public-transport timetables, daycare hours, and so on. Unless some (but not all) organizations also decide to shift their hours twice a year, in which case it will be great fun to adjust.
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Just offset your schedule accordingly
Picking the correct time is important so that everyone's schedule aligns equally. It's easier to set a clock than to re-write 10s of millions of work contracts, reprint millions of opening hours signs, changing local ordinances for when school should start and stop...
Oh you mean you own schedule? Must be nice being a social recluse and not interacting with others.
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Anyone can get up an hour earlier and go to bed an hour earlier too. The opposite isn't possible, because your boss needs you at your desk at some particular time. So winter time gives people the most choice.
If you ask people "do you want more daylight in the evening", everybody says "yeah, that's what I want, because I'm an evening person, not a morning person". But if you ask those same people "do you want to get out of bed an hour earlier every day", the answer is a universal "hell no, because I'm an eve
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DST makes you get up and go to bed an hour earlier (so it seems like the sun goes down later). If you don't change the clock but just go to bed an hour earlier, the effect is exactly the same.
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DST makes you get up and go to bed an hour earlier
That changes the "timekeeping" hour and minute you go to bed. You still go to bed in the same phase of the day. Daylight isn't changed, nor is the fact that evening is when daylight disappears.
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Right after the changeover to DST, we have to get up when it's still dark out, while a few days earlier it was light already when we got up. So we really do get up an hour earlier. And obviously, we also go to bed an hour earlier in order to be able to get up so early. So I don't understand what you mean with "you still go to bed in the same phase of the day". The same phase of the work day, the same time on the clock, but not the same time of the natural day.
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I don't get all the debates about which time to adopt. Just pick one, it is just a number. Just offset your schedule accordingly. You could actually work with a winter and summer schedule, if your job and family schedule allows it.
So... your proposal is to do DST, but in a messier and less consistent way? People would still have to make semi-annual adjustments to their sleep schedule, but now everyone wouldn't do it at the same time, not everyone would do it, and everyone would have to keep track of what hours any given organization is working.
In what way is this better?
Dupe of the story DIRECTLY PRECEDING this one (Score:1)
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It's almost as if you believe that Slashdot is anything other than clickbait these days.
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Slashdot is the same now as it was 20 years ago. We're here to argue about things none of us read.
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Ability of our rulers to do anything? (Score:2)
What is definitely astonishing me is what this says about the (in-)ability of our rulers to *do* anything. Their unique purpose as politicians is to discuss, agree and implement simple to more complicated topics. If they are not able to implement something as trivial, how can we expect them to do anything else?
Excuses as "the coronavirus pandemic has delayed its implementation" just adds more ridicule.
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It is because since the introduction of summer / daylight-saving to time zone, politicians put too much politics into what time should one use, instead of basing it on actual science and geography.
It is not that time zone can be really free of politics, as a country spanning just a little bit wide from east to west need to decide between using one single time zone for simplicity and splitting into 2 time zones for accuracy. However, choosing the single hour? Come on, do a census and generate statistics f
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This is the bigger issue now. Rewriting and updating software so time does not change automatically.
Two back-to-back headlines? (Score:2)
Wow, you really feel strongly about daylight saving time, eh?
Overwhelming support? (Score:1)
That poll conducted back in 2018 had an insane amount of observer bias. Most people didn't hear the poll including 99.4% of Europeans who didn't vote in it. Yet in Germany an activist group got their like minded outraged angry army to all vote.
The majority of Europeans responded with "There was a poll"? "Does anyone actually care"?
Now back in reality the issue here is that Europe is big and yet for some reason spans a single timezone. Sunrise and Sunset work very differently in Portugal, Greece and Norway,
Re: Overwhelming support? (Score:2)
The most eastern part of Spain is east of the most eastern part of UK, and most western part of Spain is west of the most western part of UK.
Re: Overwhelming support? (Score:2)
Also, there isn't actually a single timezone. Portugal and Ireland use the same as UK (GMT/BST).
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In fact the longitude range of UK is all within that of Spain.
That's actually what I meant. The most western point of the UK is east of the most western point of Spain. Eastern points weren't actually relevant to my point which was that the UK's +0GMT timezone actually lines up with the mainland's +1GMT.
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Now back in reality the issue here is that Europe is big and yet for some reason spans a single timezone.
No it does not. Why would it?
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No it does not. Why would it?
Because I'm not German and don't spend my time pedantically reading the post while missing the point?
If you think the western point of Spain and the eastern most point of Poland belong in the same timezone, that's your logical failing, not mine.
Less pedantry and more sticking with the point.
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If you think the western point of Spain and the eastern most point of Poland belong in the same timezone, that's your logical failing, not mine.
What has that to do with the fact that the EU has no unified time zone?
If Spain and Poland want to be in CET, that is their choice. Spain and Poland are both big. They as well could split their country into two time zones.
So: no idea what your point actually is supposed to be.
They're idiots. (Score:4, Informative)
No, they wouldn't. There are seasonal variations depending on latitude, but that's got nothing to do with DST.
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"as some would get less daylight than others." No, they wouldn't. There are seasonal variations depending on latitude, but that's got nothing to do with DST.
Objectively "less" total, of course not, but whether you want time changes, and if not, which time you'd like to stay on, is certainly affected by whether you are on the western or eastern edge of a time zone,and also by your proximity to the pole.
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Things can be adapted to whatever timezone it is. People can get used to shifting everything. The question is if they want to for the sake of a common time zone.
I also wonder if this would make sense for the US. China has done it, it is all in the same timezone.
Jean-Claude Juncker started the abolishment of DST (Score:2)
Now that he's no longer relevant, nobody's going to finish it. A highly non-representative survey with a participation of less than 1% of the population was used as pretense of public demand, but respondents were mostly from Germany, which is in the middle of the timezone and would technically be fine with any solution. Other countries on the western and eastern edges of the timezone however will not stand for it. We are going to keep switching back and forth between standard time and summer time because a
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Incorrect in the last part.
Finland, that has the furthest east point in mainland of Europe of EU countries(and one of the most eastern countries in EU total, with only Cyprus being more east in total I think) was actually the country to originally push the thing.
There was a Citizensâ(TM) initiative to have the parliament to change the law so that there is no daylight savings time. But the parliament concluded that it is based on an EU rule and thus urged the Government to try to get that changed EU w
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The respondents to the EU survey mostly wanted to abolish standard time and keep DST all year round. Either way doesn't really matter to Germany, as it is in the middle of the time zone and not far enough north to be majorly affected. The countries further west and east, especially those further north have much stronger preferences, and their preferences are opposed to each other. The twice-annual changing of the clocks is what enables these countries to have the same timezone. Germany's opinion on this bas
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Either way doesn't really matter to Germany, as it is in the middle of the time zone and not far enough north to be majorly affected. The countries further west and east, especially those further north have much stronger preferences, and their preferences are opposed to each other.
I don't think time zones work the way you think they do.
As per this map [wikipedia.org] showing the legal winter time's (as dictated by each country's adherence to its time zones) discrepancy from local time (as dictated by the sun at its highest point), your argument could just as well be made for France, Spain, Italy, UK, or Poland, as they're also southerly countries just as much "in the middle" of their time zone.
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EU does not have a unified timezone.
And Germany switched back to wintertime already a week ago ...
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EU does not have a unified timezone.
Yes, it does, with very few exceptions.
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No it has not. Google it if you are to dumb to know it.
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to dumb
I would tell you to look up the meaning of the word "exception", but I'm not sure you'd get it.
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And I would look up what "unified" means in your place.
There is no unified timezone with a few exceptions.
There are 3 (or 4?) time zones. And that's it.
Because DST makes sense... (Score:2)
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...and in the post-Facebook world people like to moan about minor inconveniences without taking into account the reasons behind their existence.
This has nothing to do with the status of Facebook, and we've been bitching about DST for at least 20 years on this site, roughly every six months.
More importantly, it isn't that we don't know why it exists, it's that we don't care about any of those reasons. I personally don't care what timezone we're in, but I don't want the timezone to change twice a year for no reason that matters to me.
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Keep summer time (Score:2)
I like the extra light during summer.
It is wonderful.
The extra darkness in winter is how it should be too.
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So get up later.
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Yep.
Sounds great.
School and work schedules of course should conform to my wishes!
just pick one (Score:2)
Look, we need to stop fucking with the clocks twice a year. It clearly causes a lot of issues for humans to adapt to the change.
We already have a situation where lots of places are in different time zones, we already deal with time conversions. We do not all have to have the same time on our clocks. So just pick one that is best for your geography and be done with it.
Re: just pick one (Score:2)
People taking trips to other timezones shows they are adjusting fine. A trip to the UK or to Finland from the Netherlands takes almost no time to adjust, and that's an hour difference, and people very willingly do so.
The minor inconvenience DST causes is well worth the benefits, for many people. With DST, at June 21, here the sun rises at 5:11 and sets at 21:58. The sun rising at 4:11 and setting at 20:58 would just mean everyone sees a full hour less daylight.
And keeping summer time would mean at December
A simple solution? (Score:2)
I've been saying ever since abolition of DST was put on the table that we should simply split the difference and set the clocks to a half-hour between Standard Time and Daylight Saving Time. I don't care one way or the other, so long as changing the clocks twice a year just goes the fuck away; but surely for those who do care which time is chosen, the half-way point is a compromise that most could accept.
the poll was crap (Score:1)
The poll was only answered by Germans, and likely a group opposing clock changes pushed their members to answer the poll. Most other people from Europe did not know of the existence of the poll.
So, that's why, basically.
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The poll was for sure talked about, and that probably means answered too, in Slovenia.
But the poll was stupid: it only asked "do you want to keep changing the time or do you want to have just one time". Imagine you lived in a retirement home and the breakfasts always alternated: porridge one day, bread and butter the next. Now the poll was "do you want us to stop this and just make it the same every day"? Well I can't answer that if you don't tell me which one you'd pick!
Dumbass Stupid Trash (Score:1)