Lawsuits Accuse Siri, Alexa, and Google of Listening When They're Not Supposed To (yahoo.com) 99
"Tech companies have long encouraged putting listening devices in homes and pockets..." reports the Washington Post. "But some are growing concerned that these devices are recording even when they're not supposed to — and they're taking their fears to the courts." (Alternate URLs here and here.)
On Thursday, a judge ruled that Apple will have to continue fighting a lawsuit brought by users in federal court in California, alleging that the company's voice assistant Siri has improperly recorded private conversations... [H]e ruled that the plaintiffs, who are trying to make the suit a class action case, could continue pursuing claims that Siri turned on unprompted and recorded conversations that it shouldn't have and passed the data along to third parties, therefore violating user privacy. The case is one of several that have been brought against Apple, Google and Amazon that involve allegations of violation of privacy by voice assistants...
The voice assistants are supposed to turn on when prompted — saying "Hey, Siri," for example — but the lawsuit alleges that plaintiffs saw their devices activate even when they didn't call out the wake word. That conversation was recorded without their consent and the information was then used to target advertisements toward them and sent on to third-party contractors to review, they allege... The lawsuits ask the companies to contend with what they do once they hear something they weren't intended to. Nicole Ozer, the technology and civil liberties director of the ACLU of California, said the suits are a sign that people are realizing how much information the voice technology is collecting.
"I think this lawsuit is part of people finally starting to realize that Siri doesn't work for us, it works for Apple," she said.
An Amazon spokesperson told the Post only a "small fraction" of audio is manually reviewed, and users can opt-out of those reviews or manage their recordings. Apple told the Post that isn't selling its Siri recordings, and that its recordings are not associated with an "identifiable individual." And Google pointed out that they don't retain audio recordings by default "and make it easy to manage your privacy preferences."
But there's still concerns. "A Washington Post investigation in 2019 found that Amazon kept a copy of everything Alexa records after it thinks it hears its name — even if users didn't realize," the Post adds. In a 2019 video, Post reporter Geoffrey A. Fowler even spliced together all of Amazon's recordings of his voice, into a spoken-word anthem titled "Your voice now belongs to Amazon. "Eavesdropping is an invasion," Fowler argues in the video, adding that Amazon "is putting its profits over our privacy. It's also a sign of a bold data grab that's going on in our increasingly connected homes."
The voice assistants are supposed to turn on when prompted — saying "Hey, Siri," for example — but the lawsuit alleges that plaintiffs saw their devices activate even when they didn't call out the wake word. That conversation was recorded without their consent and the information was then used to target advertisements toward them and sent on to third-party contractors to review, they allege... The lawsuits ask the companies to contend with what they do once they hear something they weren't intended to. Nicole Ozer, the technology and civil liberties director of the ACLU of California, said the suits are a sign that people are realizing how much information the voice technology is collecting.
"I think this lawsuit is part of people finally starting to realize that Siri doesn't work for us, it works for Apple," she said.
An Amazon spokesperson told the Post only a "small fraction" of audio is manually reviewed, and users can opt-out of those reviews or manage their recordings. Apple told the Post that isn't selling its Siri recordings, and that its recordings are not associated with an "identifiable individual." And Google pointed out that they don't retain audio recordings by default "and make it easy to manage your privacy preferences."
But there's still concerns. "A Washington Post investigation in 2019 found that Amazon kept a copy of everything Alexa records after it thinks it hears its name — even if users didn't realize," the Post adds. In a 2019 video, Post reporter Geoffrey A. Fowler even spliced together all of Amazon's recordings of his voice, into a spoken-word anthem titled "Your voice now belongs to Amazon. "Eavesdropping is an invasion," Fowler argues in the video, adding that Amazon "is putting its profits over our privacy. It's also a sign of a bold data grab that's going on in our increasingly connected homes."
This is how the Cylons invade (Score:2)
Adama: "It is an integrated computer network, and I will not have it aboard my ship."
Re: This is how the Cylons invade (Score:2)
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Probably because they didn't have an integrated computer network aboard the ship.
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No one gives a fuck, get a life.
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It was a key plot point in this episode:
https://en.battlestarwikiclone... [battlestarwikiclone.org]
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As Gomer Pyle once said (Score:2)
"Surprise, surprise, surprise!" [youtube.com]
Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Insightful)
For people who willfully buy such a device for themselves, alright, whatever, they should be aware of the risks. But since this affects everyone around them as well, it's still a concern.
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People don't agree to any EULA when they enter a room where some random eavesdropping device has been placed or when some random person with their eavesdropping phone is around them.
For people who willfully buy such a device for themselves, alright, whatever, they should be aware of the risks. But since this affects everyone around them as well, it's still a concern.
What is amazing about all this the EULAs expressly shift liability (for wiretapping) to the owner of the spy device. By using the spy device you agree it is your responsibility to inform and get consent of anyone that may ever be in earshot.
Re: Hmmm... (Score:2)
What is amazing about all this the EULAs expressly shift liability (for wiretapping) to the owner of the spy device. By using the spy device you agree it is your responsibility to inform and get consent of anyone that may ever be in earshot.
Sorry.
If "Wiretapping" even applies: In the U.S., all but 12 states are "single party" states. That means that only one party to a recorded conversation needs to consent (which the owner of the device did when they signed the EULA). And, if the "recordings" cross state lines (which they will undoubtedly do on the way to-from the Servers), then the Federal rule applies. And the Federal Rule is⦠Single Party.
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If "Wiretapping" even applies: In the U.S., all but 12 states are "single party" states. That means that only one party to a recorded conversation needs to consent (which the owner of the device did when they signed the EULA). And, if the "recordings" cross state lines (which they will undoubtedly do on the way to-from the Servers), then the Federal rule applies. And the Federal Rule isn't Single Party.
The owner may not be a party to the recorded conversation.
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The owner may not be a party to the recorded conversation.
Good luck proving that in Court, even if the owner's voice isn't on the recording; especially occurring in the owner's residence, and the owner expressly consented to any recordings.
Also, thanks to someone, my statement about the Federal Wiretapping Law seems to have been misquoted. The Federal Law is "Single Party".
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Good luck proving that in Court, even if the owner's voice isn't on the recording; especially occurring in the owner's residence, and the owner expressly consented to any recordings.
What is the relevance of the presence of owners voice between two parties who are not the owner? The owner has nothing to do with conversations between people who are not the owner which take place when the owner may not even be present.
People that are not the owner can be in a home. They can be electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, inspectors, carpenters, invited guests (friends, family) by the owner and their spawn. If two people who are not the owner are having a conversation amongst themselves whatever
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Also EULAs are invalid in 90% of the world, so even if you did, it means nothing legally.
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People don't agree to any EULA when they enter a room where some random eavesdropping device has been placed or when some random person with their eavesdropping phone is around them.
As usual, XKCD is well ahead of us. https://xkcd.com/1807/ [xkcd.com]
Innocent. (Score:5, Funny)
Hey everyone, are you listening in on me?
Alexa: No I am not.
Siri: No I am not either.
Googe: Sorry the service you have reached has been disconnected, or out of service.
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Mod parent funnier, typo notwitstanding.
I used to think you [Ostracus] were annoying, but I'm coming to appreciate your wit. But I still don't understand the basketball joke. Maybe it should be "You don't make dunks on your friends..."?
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You can unplug an Amazon Echo Dot when you don't want it listening. But you can't take the batteries out of an iPhone.
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But you can't take the batteries out of an iPhone.
Well, you *can* but ...
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At least on Android I can deny the Google apps the right to use the microphone. The OS complains loudly this could break EVERYTHING, but it just breaks the assistent, as was intented.
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If it is secretly still listening I cannot tell. Maybe it is just playing deaf.
Exactly.
Re: welp (Score:2)
You can unplug an Amazon Echo Dot when you don't want it listening. But you can't take the batteries out of an iPhone.
Even though the âoeHey Siriâ decoding is done exclusively On-Device (and with iOS 15, all speech processing in iOS will be done on-Device), there are several things the User can do to keep Siri from listening when not wanted:
In the Settings App, under the Accessibility/Siri Subheadings, there are the following Options:
1. Type to Siri. When Enabled, this makes you have to Type Siri Requests, Unless you Press and Hold the Home Button.
2. Always listen for âoeHey Siriâ. With this Enabled, yo
Words fail me... (Score:2)
I *might* put a device that accepts verbal input and processes it locally in my home, if I was convinced that it didn't make network connections to "the cloud" except when I wanted it to. I would never put a device in my home the operation of which (including decoding my verbal speech inputs) depends directly on "the cloud."
Although I sympathize deeply with the distress people have at finding their audio from their home unexpectedly retained in "the cloud," at the same time I wonder how they could have th
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With you on that.
By definition the devices are listening 100% of the time, waiting for the cue: "Alexa" "hey whatever device" etc.
I sometimes wonder how the intellectually challenged think these devices work?
I will not have one in, or near the house.
Similar issue with door cameras, you have one but don't realise they're spying on you? rip them out. Now!
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Of course those devices have to listen all the time in order to pick up the cue words at any given time. Devices ought to process that kind of information locally though.
Hence, from what I gather in the articles, the allegation that's being made here is that the devices transmit at least part of what should not be transmitted.
That's the allegations at least. I don't know whether that's true or not.
Occam's Razor suggests that at least mobile devices are not
Re: Words fail me... (Score:2)
Of course those devices have to listen all the time in order to pick up the cue words at any given time. Devices ought to process that kind of information locally though.
I donâ(TM)t know about other platforms; but Apple devices have been processing the âoeHey Siriâ Keyphrase On-Device for several years; since the iPhone 6s, IIRC.
In fact all Apple Devices (including M1 Macs), will be doing all Speech processing On-Board.
Introducing Happy Fuzzy Bear (Score:2)
..the world's smartest bear!
Happy Fuzzy Bear responds to your child's commands and has access to the vast knowledge of the Internet! Just talk to Happy Fuzzy Bear and he will sing nursery rhymes and expand your child's mind with limitless factoids!
Note: Happy Fuzzy Bear needs to be connected to the internet in order to work his magic.
Yeah, when you don't have to press a button to make Happy Fuzzy Bear work, you can assume that everything you say goes out to Fuzzy Land in order to make the bear work. And the
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"Lockdowns are for convicts"
Clueless fuckwit!
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The post you responded to doesn't say that.
Re: Introducing Happy Fuzzy Bear (Score:2)
I take it you are against right to repair, and all for DRM and other public hostile actions by companies to prevent owners from gaining full access to their own devices.
Or maybe you think it's Covid related in which case I had this sig long before anybody heard of Covid, and the meaning has nothing to do with Covid.
The only fuckwit here is you, reacting impulsively and entirely on emotion.
Re: Introducing Happy Fuzzy Bear (Score:2)
I admit I did pharaphrase the sig from someone who used it for years before I did
"Use Linux. Because lockups are for convicts" IIRC.
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I'm not against right to anything, I repair my own devices where possible, and don't buy amy Apple/Samsung/etc. devices that can't be easily repaired.
Your sig simply really offends me, It's Trumpian in the extreme. I don't know your politics, or even nationality, but I can guess you're a Septic from the casual offensive nature of the sig.
That's what I was commenting on.
My sig is simply because Septics use Ass (Equus asinus) for buttocks.
Re: Introducing Happy Fuzzy Bear (Score:2)
"It's Trumpian"
Right, so I must be a MAGA hat wearin' Confederate flag wavin' Capitol coup cheerin' on Trump True Believer(TM).
I guess I need to change my sig from something simple to something very convulted that explicitly conveys "only for devices and media" and try to make it not sound anything remotely Trumpish because somebody might get offended and think I am an Trump loving anti mask/vaxxer.
Or how about I just keep it just tbe way it is because I don't waste time kowtowing to people with tissue thin
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Thin skin? Really?
Mate: Most countries round the world are in some form of lockdown, can you see; now, how your sig can be offensive?
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PS
I'm not a septic... (you probably guessed that) Trump is not generally viewed positively (being polite here) outside the US. So "Trumpian" may not have a resonance with you..
Link to lawsuit (Score:5, Informative)
Can we please all agree to link to the actual lawsuit when posting articles about a particular lawsuit? https://storage.courtlistener.... [courtlistener.com]
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The lawsuits refers to an article in the Guardian which seems to be this one from two years ago: https://www.theguardian.com/te... [theguardian.com]
Let the punnishment fit the crime (Score:2)
If this is found to be true then the court should order that a listening device be put into their board rooms and we all should be able to hear what is said.
If only things were this simple.
how will (Score:2)
how will they hear the wake word if not listening for it? Of course it will wake up and record if it hears a combination of sounds that might be a wake word. If it did not, there would be a class action lawsuit complaining that the devices did not work as advertise.
If they want to sue, how about suing about the ads, the by the ways, and other additional long winded info given without being asked for.
Re: how will (Score:2)
how will they hear the wake word if not listening for it? Of course it will wake up and record if it hears a combination of sounds that might be a wake word. If it did not, there would be a class action lawsuit complaining that the devices did not work as advertise.
Exactly!
What people don't realize, is that in the case of Apple Devices, that "Hey Siri" is decoded On Device.
Also, several controls are available to control Siri's listening. And in iOS 15, All Speech Decoding is done on-Device!
People don't seem to care about privacy (Score:3)
Siri is hardware optimized... (Score:3)
I'd really like to know the *exact* complaint with Siri. The "Hey Siri" feature is supposed to work on a hardware basis that only turns on when it hears "hey siri" and would, to my understanding, obliterate the battery if it were not there. Sure it picks up on TV sometimes when someone says, "I seriously..." blah blah blah but even that is hard to replicate. If they're suing based on those accidental activations, fuck 'em. (Plaintiff, not apple)
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Perhaps the complaint is that Siri is on when you configure it to be off, ever think of that? Or do you think that the complaint is that it works they way it is intended?
Apple offers you the option to turn Siri off. It is not off when you select that option.
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The "Hey Siri" feature is supposed to work on a hardware basis that only turns on when it hears "hey siri"
iPhones, iPads, and HomePods have a chip that recognises that word and nothing else. It's power use is very low because it's so limited. It couldn't be reprogrammed to recognise "Hey, Alexa" although Amazon could quite easily build a very similar chip for that.
It records the last second of sound for that (and throws it away after a second). And when "Hey Siri" is recognised, it can give the last second to the CPU, to analyse the voice, so if multiple people in a room are talking, it can filter out the vo
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This is right. The burden caused by either manipulated or incompetent entities is overwhelming. It's not just banking but everything computing. I spent most of three days fixing issues on numerous computers and devices only to find two brand new issues this morning. A third asks me to verify my login on another device. For goodness sake I just want to login to an existing account from the same location. The amount of tweaking software just to get it to work is getting extreme. Devs need to understand
Lol, easy to deflect (Score:2)
It takes a long time to litigate this. All they have to do is find some guy who uses a racial slur, gets recorded, reviewed and outed by an anonymous hero working for Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Google, whomever- and gets yelled at on twitter as a result- any time during said litigation will work.
Bam! Now anyone opposed to eavesdropping is a racist. Argument won, no lawyers needed.
Easily imagined issue (Score:2)
Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that listening devices can't be heavily abused, and there's been many known cases of random audio going in for testing -
BUT so many people I know acuse their devices of audio spying on them for advertising, and I'm inclined to think they're all wrong.
They'll talk about something, and later see an advert for it, and jump to the conclusion it must be because the device is listening.
Always ignoring the possibilities that:
* They started talking about it because it's in the zeitg
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"Well, people are like that. Maybe one day Google will figure it out based on context clues and let us know without even having to explicitly Google it."
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Right? The other day my mom was telling me about how vaseline worked better than ointment, and I started getting ads...
Oh, never mind.
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The other day my mom was telling me about a person that died of a heart attack, and I started getting ads about preventing heart disease. How does that happen if the microphones aren't on?
Damn it, I just read your post, and I got three ads already.
Re: Easily imagined issue (Score:2)
The other day my mom was telling me about a person that died of a heart attack, and I started getting ads about preventing heart disease. How does that happen if the microphones aren't on?
Quit Trolling.
You are an iOS App Developer, FFS!!!
If you can't think of any other vector for this information to get into your friends and family's browsing/searching orbit, you need to turn in your geek card.
But instead, just admit you, who derives his very living developing Apps for iOS, should just admit you get some sort of perverse enjoyment biting the hand that feedsâ¦
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Funny that the people who bought these.... (Score:1)
... don't realize that they are the product here.
I said this before on a differnt post... (Score:2)
android LineageOS "privacy guard" confirms spying (Score:5, Informative)
Our household has been running the FOSS community version of android for several years, LineageOS ( https://lineageos.org/ [lineageos.org] ). We can 100% confirm that "do no evil" google regularly tries to record unauthorized audio of the environment.
We had started circa 2018 using LineageOS 14 (based on Android 7) with minimal google apps installed. The thinking was to "benefit from the google play store" while using a more transparent phone OS. While most phone vendors disabled the android "PrivacyGuard" feature, it remained available in LineageOS, allowing users restrict what apps could access (e.g. camera, mic, contacts). As described in the 2019-12-11 xda-developers post, "PrivacyGuard offered users advanced permission management controls over what was possible on stock Android".
Thus we learned that "google play services" would attempt to record audio at unexpected times without permission -- the PrivacyGuard feature would display a prompt asking if they should be allowed or not!?!
Phones were wiped and reinstalled with LineageOS, this time without any google apps (these appear now rebranded as Open GApps; good riddance either name). Instead, we used the FOSS f-droid app catalog, ensuring a safer and more transparent phone sw stack.
Probably not surprisingly, circa LineageOS 17 (based on android 10) the PrivacyGuard feature was removed (or "re-engineered" by google).
Perfect example of the current "Surveillance Capitalism" state of things. These corporations (and their leaders) must be held accountable. People must be guaranteed an option to use FOSS solutions for essential digital technologies such as phones.
https://lineageos.org/ [lineageos.org]
https://f-droid.org/ [f-droid.org]
https://www.xda-developers.com... [xda-developers.com]
https://opengapps.org/ [opengapps.org]
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Android 10 has fine grained permissions built in, similar to PrivacyGuard. You can also grant permissions that are only available when the app is open and in the foreground. By default it will automatically remove permissions from apps you have not used in a while.
Google is moving towards doing all speech processing on-device. The Pixel 5 does most of it on-device now, which makes it very responsive but also means that speech samples are not sent to Google. Of course if what it hears triggers a Google searc
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You can also grant permissions that are only available when the app is open and in the foreground
This doesn't work on the "google" app, though, which is what handles the "ok google" hotword processing. You have to completely revoke microphone permissions to get it to stop listening (because listening is its job) and when you do that it also breaks voice detection in other apps like maps, because of course it does. It's obvious that this all-or-nothing approach to disabling hotword detection (an option which, by the way, google has taken out of the settings — but it used to be there) is intended t
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If you disable hotword activation and background music ID it doesn't listen. Music ID causes it to listen but the identification is done on-device.
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I think you misunderstood.
It has a feature where it will identify music playing within earshot automatically and display the details on the lock screen. That is all done on device and nothing is recorded (it actually uses frequency spectrum over time, storing or sending a recording would be a huge waste of bandwidth).
There is a separate feature where if you say "hey google" the phone will wake up and actively listen for a question or instruction. You can turn it off. The detection of they "hey google" part
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I'd like to figure out how to update a VS955 to lineage. The stuff I found out there no longer works. It's years old.
Confused (Score:1)
depositions (Score:1)
I can't wait for the depositions!
Re: Seriously could be interpreted as a Siri blah (Score:2)
You are an idiotic, paranoid nutjob.
For one thing, Honestly, how are you going to hide Ultrasonic anything in an audio broadcast with insufficient bandwidth to even cover the audible spectrum properly?
Citations, please?!?
Now go take some Ivermectin with a nice Bleach chaser!
I am just wondering (Score:1)
How would this slashdot headline change if this was about a Russian cloud company?
The very headline before this one was "Malware Found Preinstalled In Classic Push-button Phones Sold In Russia."
And yet when it's Amazon or Google, the headline is "Lawsuits Accuse Siri, Alexa, and Google of Listening When They're Not Supposed To."
These seem to be about the same topic, wouldn't you agree? It's about technology firms spying on their customers unbeknownst to those customers.
Early adopter one bitten twice shy (Score:2)
So back around 2007 (I think), when I was even dumber than today (hard to believe, I know...), I found this great, free website called Facebook that put me back in contact with some overseas family and long-lost friends. At the time, even most of my colleagues asked, what is this Facebook thing actually about?
FFWD a couple of years, in which FB just became more and more obnoxious, and their spying was gradually exposed. So do you think I am interested in even obtaining a "smart" speaker, "smart" doorbell,
Human contractors transcribing Google Assistant (Score:2)
Kinky sex (Score:2)
In the case of Siri, you can opt-in to have a human listening to things that Siri can't make sense of on its own. So that a human can figure it out, and Siri can learn from it. Only happens when you opt in. Now that is incompatible with the claim that information is sold to advertising companies, because the only things that get recorded are th
Won't go anywhere (Score:2)
The NSA is Amicus curiae in the trial.
How the heck do you think they train (Score:2)
the speech recognition?
Google listening (Score:1)
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I don't want to talk to my computer (Score:2)
I admit I have an aversion to voice activated systems. When I was in hospital for a while, for a throat operation, my boss got me a new mobile phone, so I could keep in touch, mostly by text. One problem with the clever device was voicemail. All you have to do is say your name to access your voicemail. Great. I can't speak, you stupid algorithm. To fix this, all you have to do is phone this helpline. Very funny. Not.
Apart from that, there is an attempt to convey the idea of a Star Trek type of computer, whe
Google Home device commented on my conversation (Score:2)
I was having a discussion with a customer and was telling her that Google collects and tracks your internet and other access. I was saying that I didn't agree to the tracking but that a periodic ad might be allowed. I said that Google goes/went through your Gmail and collects your receipts and puts them on Google's servers. Then all of the sudden Google home interrupted our conversation saying that "Google does not do that". I was freaking shocked. At no time did I trigger Google. They were flat out l
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I think it's more likely the device was pwn3d and whoever did it was fucking with you.
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I think it's more likely the device was pwn3d and whoever did it was fucking with you.
This would also be a good reason not to use such devices.
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No.
This was the assistant voice.
Further I have layers of security covering my network. I have been working on security for several years.
If you are not aware Google and others pay people (employees) to listen to people's conversation, and they have been caught where they admitted it with some draconian justification.
If people actually knew what was going on all together they'd be shitting their pants.
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Even if everything you say is true, why would they volunteer that information to you when they weren't specifically asked? That's why I think it's much more likely to have originated from a third party intent on stirring up shit. It isn't difficult to make an advance recording of the assistant voice, if you know what response you want to send.
what they're probably doing (Score:2)
On a hit, it can send a timestamped recognition ID either right then, or in a periodic digest.
Offline word and phrase recognition is coming (if it's not already there) with the integration of chips specifically designed for AI.
This, combined with Microsoft's always-on anti-virus, can effective
The lawsuit miss one big angle they can use (Score:1)
Those devices are also recording children in the assumed "privacy" of their own home. Are they not using that angle because the devices doesn't have a camera? If it did I know for a fact it would catch my kids either nude or half nude. Doesn't recording of minors even if just audio trigger some kind of law that is supposed to protect children?