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NSO Group CEO Says Law-Abiding Citizens Have 'Nothing To Be Afraid Of' (appleinsider.com) 117

Posted by BeauHD from the ok-if-you-say-so... dept.
The CEO of NSO Group, whose spyware tools have reportedly been used to target journalists and activists, says that people who aren't criminals shouldn't be afraid of being surveilled AppleInsider reports: Shalev Hulio, 39, recently spoke to Forbes after investigations indicated that NSO Group's Pegasus spyware was used by authoritarian governments to hack and surveil the mobile devices of world leaders, high-profile journalists, and activists. NSO Group says that it sells its tools to governments to help them catch serious criminals like terrorists or gangsters. However, Hulio admitted that it can't control what governments ultimately do with the tools. "We are selling our products to governments. We have no way to monitor what those governments do," he said.

Hulio did note that NSO Group has mechanisms in place to detect when abuse happens so that the company can "shut them down." He says that NSO Group has "done it before and will continue to do so. On the other hand, he said that NSO Group shouldn't be responsible for government misuse. Additionally, Hulio said that the average smartphone has nothing to worry about. While NSO Group's spyware can break into the latest iPhones running up-to-date software, often without any action from the user, it's only aimed at criminals. "The people that are not criminals, not the Bin Ladens of the world -- there's nothing to be afraid of. They can absolutely trust on the security and privacy of their Google and Apple devices," Hulio said.
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NSO Group CEO Says Law-Abiding Citizens Have 'Nothing To Be Afraid Of' More

NSO Group CEO Says Law-Abiding Citizens Have 'Nothing To Be Afraid Of'

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  • fascism (Score:5, Insightful)

    by buanzo ( 542591 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:22PM (#61613923)
    Fascists say that. In any case, the law is never entirely perfect, so a crime not necessarily should be one...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Aubz ( 7986666 )
      Hi Shalev. I have had cameras in your house and office for the past 12 months. Nothing for you to worry about, right, Shalev? You have nothing to hide, right, Shalev?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      Create a new song, I think not, they own it now, not you, they PUBLISHED FIRST. How about patents, NOPE, they patented it first. How about psycho analysis and target manipulation, they can do that. HOW THE FUCK ABOUT, everyone does naughty and stupid things, how about them being published, exposed publicly, especially politicians, extortion much. How about user names and password, we are not entitled to our bank account, you want to access it at will. How about planting evidence, for a fee, want someone des

      • I am not disagreeing with your general dislike of corps. However, who owns what depends upon jurisdiction. Creation or expression is owned by the individual regardless of who publishes or patents. Both of those features give you standing in court. But, if someone can walk in and show evidence (e.g., correspondence, notes, etc) that they were first, you lose. Ca is very protective about this sort of thing. Other states further east, not so much. It depends. That is why any sort of deal involving a co

  • Law abiding⦠(Score:5, Insightful)

    by BytePusher ( 209961 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:23PM (#61613933) Homepage
    Like not having incorrect political opinions or thoughts. Humanity has been here before

    • Re:Law abiding⦠(Score:5, Insightful)

      by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:03PM (#61614073)

      That phrase that law abiding citizens have nothing to fear is exactly the phrase that dictators love to use. The fact that the company would use such a phrase is bizarre, have they been hiding away from the free world for so long that they don't realize how terrible it sounds when they use it? I mean this is an Israeli company, in a country founded after atrocities commited by a dictator against their ethnicity; the irony is quite pungent.

      • The protections of the 4th Amendment and similar, are to stop the king, aka the government, from ripping through your stuff looking for something to tag you with, i.e. hurt their political opponents.

        Keep in mind most powerful people are rich, and have their fingers in many pies. Most can probably be found to be doing something wrong if you look closely enough, like cops who know they can pull you over if they follow you long enough.

        To say, "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" is a profo

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dcw3 ( 649211 )

          Keep in mind most powerful people are rich, and have their fingers in many pies. Most can probably be found to be doing something wrong if you look closely enough, like cops who know they can pull you over if they follow you long enough.

          Most anybody can be found to be doing something wrong. WTF does that have to do with rich or powerful? Having your fingers in multiple pies is called diversification and a risk mitigation method that you'll learn from any basic investing lessons, as well as from your grandmother who told you not to put all your eggs in one basket.

      • They use the phrase 'cause every year new dummies are brought into the world who have not had a proper education wherein you were shown how many, many attempts with assorted "systems" were crappola. E.g., "Trust us, we're from the Guv'mt. "

      • Ironically, for Shalev, the Nazis said that too!

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by noodler ( 724788 )

          Israel is in love with the nazi's. I found out when i realized Breitbart was an israeli company. They bond over the nationalism.

    • There is a problem with his statement.

      Everyone is a criminal in terms of some country's laws.

      Especially since some country's laws are stating that anyone, no matter where you are from, is guilty if you do certain actions even in your own country.

      Examples like Lèse-majesté law in Thailand or China's new laws on HK about National Security (you talk about HK secession online, regardless of where you are in the world, is illegal and you can have action taken on you if you enter their territory). I thi

  • One of the best points in history (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:26PM (#61613953)
    that has been made is that cops will fight tooth and nail to avoid having their body cams on, and Wall Street C-Levels will ruthlessly lobby against oversight, but we're not supposed to worry because we've got nothing to hide.

    It came from a YouTuber named Thought Slime.

    • MOD UP that's an insightful one if I ever saw it
      (of course, those who have sold their souls already have no shame and therefore hypocrisy becomes currency)

    • Re:One of the best points in history (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Brain-Fu ( 1274756 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:35PM (#61614161) Homepage Journal

      I, for one, am afraid that the people spying on me might be evil people who seek to do me harm. Maybe they are also employees of some legitimate organization, but that doesn't mean that they aren't also evil people out to victimize me in some way.

      The people spying on me are strangers. I don't know who they are, or what their motivations are. I haven't had a chance to vet them and I certainly didn't vote for them. I have zero reason to trust them. It would be irrational to simply accept that they are spying on me and I don't have any reason to fear. The only rational response is to fear the spying and seek to minimize it as much as is legally and physically possible.

      • I, for one, am afraid that the people spying on me might be evil people who seek to do me harm. Maybe they are also employees of some legitimate organization, but that doesn't mean that they aren't also evil people out to victimize me in some way.

        The people spying on me are strangers. I don't know who they are, or what their motivations are. I haven't had a chance to vet them and I certainly didn't vote for them. I have zero reason to trust them. It would be irrational to simply accept that they are spying on me and I don't have any reason to fear. The only rational response is to fear the spying and seek to minimize it as much as is legally and physically possible.

        Severely under-rated comment.

        Anyone who wants this sort of access should be required - by international law and treaty - to have the same software installed on their own devices and open to the public for inspection.

        The concept that I should trust someone simply because they trust themselves is utterly mental.

    • No sympathy for cops since they're on the other side of this too. Mind if I search your car?

    • I think you'll find that most cops WANT their body cams on. Absent that evidence, it's their word vs the suspect and the public does so love a good cop lynching.

      Body cams keep cops safe, and they know that.

      • And yet, 100% of Cop unions DEMAND cop control over the on-off switch so I'll stick with NO COP SEARCH WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE attested by a citizen

  • Since when were journalists criminals? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Martin S. ( 98249 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:26PM (#61613955) Journal

    First they came for the journalists,
    I didn't protest because I wasn't a journalist ...

  • Yeah.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by sconeu ( 64226 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:26PM (#61613957) Homepage Journal

    If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.

    -- Richilieu

    Also, wasn't the President of France targeted? (Yeah, I know politician = crook, but not in this context)

  • private dicks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by algaeman ( 600564 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:29PM (#61613965)
    Someone should hire a menacing goon to follow him around for a couple days and just take pictures of him every single place he goes. Since he is not doing anything illegal, I'm sure he'll be fine with it.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      kickstarter it.

  • Totally Fine (Score:3)

    by Dewiltse ( 7747260 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:31PM (#61613975)
    Really? The age old saying of if you're not a criminal, what have you to hide? What have you to look through my stuff without a warrant or permission? It may not be me now looked into now, but it will be someday. This isn't okay.

    • Christians and Caesars Rome, doing something wrong and being persecuted for it. Versus the modern day. Age old indeed.

  • Sure... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GrumpySteen ( 1250194 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:31PM (#61613983)

    You "can absolutely trust on the security and privacy of [your] Google and Apple devices," says the company who brags about being able to break in and get information out of those devices.

  • This has to have been trolling (Score:5, Informative)

    by larwe ( 858929 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:32PM (#61613985)
    To make a statement like this with a straight face, it can only possibly be an A-grade troll. "You're OK if you're not a criminal" is a very poor choice of phrase; it really should read "you might be OK if you're not doing anything which is now, or might in future become, an activity of interest." Everyone with an above-room-temperature IQ knows this; this line has been a cliche for decades. A journalist investigating and exposing corruption in government is doing nothing wrong, but is certainly doing something punishable, if his activities can be detected and a covert response organized.
    • Can we please stop this idiotic habit of calling EERYTHING a troll? People who actually do believe inane shit exist - and even the not-super-inane, but still idiotic. People DO think like this person thing, therefore you cannot reasonably just default to him being a troll.

  • If the Assange case shows us anything (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BardBollocks ( 1231500 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:35PM (#61613993)

    It's that the law does not matter when you're revealing information of very great importance on very big crimes by regional Elites.

    i.e. the customers of NSO.

  • Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

    Make them legally liable if their tools are targeted anyone who isn't a criminal convicted in a court of law and are used to violate privacy, or used to imprison someone, or used in an action that kills someone.
    Make them put 33% of their profits into an escrow account each sale until they get enough to cover that liability.
    Make them get reinsurance to cover higher losses.

    • Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)

      by evanh ( 627108 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:25PM (#61614125)

      Well, "guilty as charged" might be the better title here.

      He's saying NSO can see what is being done with their tools and can act to stop it. But then says they won't act against anything government sanctioned. Eg: A free-ticket against anyone in the press or anyone questioning government actions, like the opposition party say.

      In other words, he's confirming the accusations against NSO are correct.

    • Wise words. The thing here is the surveillance actually becomes an extra judicial punishment. The investigation is the punishment. It can work against criminal justice just as easily as for it, too.

  • Legitimate government (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sphealey ( 2855 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @06:48PM (#61614027)

    Since when is the NSO Group a legitimate government of anything, under any system of political philosophy, that it can arrogate to itself the decision as to who on the Earth will be and won't be spied on? Not to mention bone sawed to death while still alive.

  • Yeah, Ok.

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No! It's the point flying over this guy's head.

    "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."
    - Attributed to Cardinal Richelieu

  • Not even sure how to react to a spokesperson making a statement like this, it implies that we're so gullible and stupid that it's sort of freakish. Then again, in certain parts of the world it's been proven that a large portion of the populace can be made to believe the dumbest conspiracy theories and lies, so in that context it makes sense they'd try it.

  • Let me be the first (Score:3)

    by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:01PM (#61614071) Journal

    Let me be the first to say "Fuck you, you spying fascist cunt."

  • "The people that are not criminals...there's nothing to be afraid of."

    Meanwhile...

    "Pegasus spyware was used by authoritarian governments to hack and surveil the mobile devices of world leaders, high-profile journalists, and activists..."

    So reassuring that the CEO has now confirmed that world leaders, high-profile journalists, and activists are all criminals...

  • Perennial motto of the brain police (Score:3)

    by biggaijin ( 126513 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:15PM (#61614101)

    You don't have anything to hide, right? You don't need to worry that we're watching all the time.

  • worth reading ... (Score:5, Informative)

    by PinkyGigglebrain ( 730753 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:23PM (#61614121)

    'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy [gwu.edu]

    This paper puts some very large holes in the "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" justification used by so many.

    Main paper is a PDF. I tried to find a plain text on the web but failed.

  • You can trust the security of your 'Android' device which hasn't been updated since it was released and the hardware manufacturer denies any knowledge that it ever produced that device. This CEO pants are clearly on fire.

  • Does it feel weird to anyone else that they specifically call out the CEO's age? It's totally irrelevant.

    • If he has nothing to hide, it should be fine for us to know his age. And his exact birthday, eye colour, mother's maiden name....

  • Politics aside, has anyone run the Amnesty mvt too (Score:3)

    by shm ( 235766 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:36PM (#61614163)

    I ran it and it generated tons of logs which might be construed as false positives for intrusion. What was very interesting was that some of the call records and texts went back months.

    And I delete texts almost immediately.

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:52PM (#61614189)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Loved by a few, scorned by the many, arms trade is close to oil trade as an international imperative. Criminals and governments manipulate it out of sight of normal citizens against whom it will be used. The beauty of trading digital weapons is that they require little effort in manufacture, distribution or payment; it's all instantaneous and easy to hide!

  • Hey Shalev Hulio, (Score:5, Informative)

    by fredrated ( 639554 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @07:56PM (#61614215) Journal

    fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

  • Same mentality as "you should use paper walls in your house as only the government can tear em down"

  • The spokesperson's ridiculous statement is less than a half step away from "If you have nothing to hide...". Crap that we've heard from the spy agencies for years.

  • That was when scientists realized they had not asked them selves the question "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should".

    Generally this kind of data gathering is used retrospectively. Laws are built in layers that gradually work around constitutional freedoms. This is why the term "Freedom requires constant vigilance" exists, because freedom is not a privilege, it is a responsibility.

    I've found thinking of freedom from this perspective makes it a lot easier to make a judgement call on things like th

  • Don't mind us looking at you taking a shit on the toilet. You're not doing anything wrong so you have nothing to worry about.

  • No such thing (Score:3)

    by jargonburn ( 1950578 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @10:48PM (#61614527)

    Law-Abiding Citizens

    Have you reviewing all the laws (even just criminal code) applicable to you where you live, work, travel, etc? There are far too many laws on the books that aren't currently enforced and/or are ambiguous (but haven't yet been tested) to say with any reliability that ANYONE is a "law-abiding citizen".

  • Hereâ(TM)s why heâ(TM)s wrong (Score:4, Informative)

    by djp2204 ( 713741 ) on Friday July 23, 2021 @10:49PM (#61614529)

    And its part of a video on why you should never talk to the cops - https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE [youtu.be]

  • ...the bathroom when he takes a piss or shit?

    Does he wear clothes?

    Is there anything wrong with his body that he feels the need to hide it?

    People object to being surveiled not because they are doing anything wrong, but simply because some things are simply private.

    It's not fear that makes people object to being watched, it's because it's rude and treats other people as something less worthy of dignity than whoever is doing the watching. It is dehumanizing and immoral.

    For fuck's sake, it's the exact same reason that slavery was outlawed. I'm not saying that privacy invasion and slavery the same thing, but fundamentally they do share a common trait of treating other people as less than how you yourself would prefer to be treated.

    It's the golden rule, for chrissake. This should be kindergarten shit. Why does this CEO not see this?

  • Rosa Parks (Score:3)

    by aRTeeNLCH ( 6256058 ) on Saturday July 24, 2021 @01:13AM (#61614715)
    Let's not forget Rosa Parks didn't abide by the law. The FBI was trying its darnest to stop Main Luther King. Please comment with your favourite examples.

  • History (Score:4, Insightful)

    by stikves ( 127823 ) on Saturday July 24, 2021 @02:00AM (#61614747) Homepage

    If history is any guide, law abiding citizens have every reason to be afraid. In fact, during times of crisis, regular people are *more* in danger than criminals (who can somehow defend themselves, albeit illegally).

    Also, barring any direct government related stuff, any law abiding citizen would not want others to know: their private business dealings, family matters, travel plans (hello burglars, we will be on vacation next week, also our alarm code is 1234), yes, sure their political leanings, or even the teams they support (maybe that vacation is to a hooligan city).

    So, please spare me the advice "you have nothing to fear", our private stuff is nobody else's business...

  • Am I the only one to find it highly cynical? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Saturday July 24, 2021 @05:02AM (#61614991)

    This, coming from an Israeli company. One should assume that they, if anyone on this planet, know that being law abiding means jack shit if the laws are made to oppress you.

    • Re:Am I the only one to find it highly cynical? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by tinkerton ( 199273 ) on Saturday July 24, 2021 @04:09PM (#61616703)

      'Tested on Palestinians' is in fact their unique selling point. Everybody knows if there is a part of the population you want to keep totally and utterly under control you go to the Israelis. NSO is merely a company for monetizing the government knowhow. And they do have knowhow. They've got these two huge testing/showcase labs, one is the West Bank the other Gaza.

  • If he really believes this he can prove it by flooding his home with webcams all broadcasting live to the Internet
  • Another bozo who has yet to understand the meaning of privacy. I am use he leaves the door of the bathroom wide open when he's taking a shit - after all, he's a law-abiding citizen with nothing to fear.

  • If he cannot be held responsible for governments that abuse his product, then BY DEFINITION, INNOCENT PEOPLE HAVE THINGS TO FEAR!

    You can not hold both those statements without being a fool. If innocent people do not have things to fear, then that means governments are not abusing his product (at least not often). Which means he can be held responsible for it.

  • I swear I've heard that song somewhere before? Were the lyrics in German? Cantonese? I can't quite recall.

  • One brief look into human history, or, say, in the reason something like Human Rights got established, nicely shows how utterly wrong and dishonest that statement is.

  • It would seem that NSO has forgotten history. The Jews were law abiding citizens in Germany and we all know what happened.
    And when they came for me...
  • How many companies, government officials and others have lied about the use of their software to spy on us? That's the business they are in and whether just for fun or for pay they will spy on anybody they want to.
  • with money should buy their tools and target the entire C-Suite, all their consultants and outside contractors. This includes their families and extended families. And anyone they communicate with. Then we will find out about who is honest!

  • Fine, can he publish his credit card details, bank details, all his usernames and passwords ... or does he have something to hide?

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