Apple Pre-Installed Apps Would Be Banned Under Antitrust Package (bloomberg.com) 185
Apple would be prohibited from pre-installing its own apps on Apple devices under antitrust reform legislation introduced last week, said Democratic Representative David Cicilline, who is leading a push to pass new regulations for U.S. technology companies. From a report: Cicilline told reporters Wednesday that a proposal prohibiting tech platforms from giving an advantage to their own products over those of competitors would mean Apple can't ship devices with pre-installed apps on its iOS operating platform. "It would be equally easy to download the other five apps as the Apple one so they're not using their market dominance to favor their own products and services," the Rhode Island Democrat said. The proposal is part of a package of bipartisan bills that would impose significant new constraints on how tech companies operate, restricting acquisitions and forcing them to exit some businesses. The House Judiciary Committee will mark up the five bills in a hearing next week, Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York, the committee's chairman, said.
what about the webkit lockin as well? (Score:5, Interesting)
what about the webkit lockin as well?
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Re: what about the webkit lockin as well? (Score:2)
You could easily make a browser with a different engine compatible with iOS by bundling it in the app. The only reason you donâ(TM)t see this is Apple policy, not any technical reason.
Re: what about the webkit lockin as well? (Score:2)
Re: what about the webkit lockin as well? (Score:2)
I don't trust that though.
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this raised an eyebrow and in case anyone wonders, it's true:
2.5.6 Apps that browse the web must use the appropriate WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript.
https://developer.apple.com/ap... [apple.com]
i had no idea! apple, so much entertainment! how they disrespect their high paying customer base is really hilarious. in a cringey way.
Sounds kinda dumb (Score:2)
Unless the App Store is one of the apps that doesn't come pre-installed.
I guess the good news is you could select some better alternative and wouldn't have to waste the space on apps you don't want, and can't uninstall.
kinda dumb (Score:2)
This is stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm rabidly anti-Apple, but I think this whole business is misguided.
The point of antitrust law is to serve the interests of customers.
Many customers have demonstrated that what they want is a walled garden. They should be allowed that choice.
Re:This is stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I see, people don't complain that there is an email app, or a web browser pre-installed with their phone. In fact those are actually useful.
The major complaints I saw were:
- You cannot install 3rd party apps outside the store, like emulators or any other category Apple does not allow the users to have
- You have to go though Apple payments, even for established alternatives. Sure, this gives the opportunity to ask for refunds from a single place, but alternatives can be possible
- You cannot modify hardware, they make it extremely difficult just to fix the battery or replace the screen
Basically anti-consumer and anti-competitive stuff.
If they take away the capability of just buying an iphone, and using it minimal fuss, it would actually be harmful.
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If you have a Mac, you can install second person apps, whether or not Apple has approved them.
You can similarly distribute your app as a linkable module to other people who have a Mac for them to install on their own devices using their own credentials. You could even provide automated scripts for the end user so that virtually all of the process is automated
And there's exactly shit all that Apple can do about it.
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If you have a Mac, you can install second person apps, whether or not Apple has approved them.
This is called "tying" and its one of the main things anti-trust deals with. Its illegal. Thanks for pointing out Apples illegal activities.
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Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
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They should be allowed that choice. (Score:2)
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You do have a choice, don't buy an Apple phone.
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I rather agree with you, but there should be increased regulation with increase in market share. Red lines are foolish, but when a company crosses, say, 20% of the market share it should start being regulated, with increased regulation as the capture of the market increased, Anything over, say, 75% of the market should be regulated as a public utility. And this "market" could be geographically segregated. (E.g., if only one ISP is available on a block, that should count as a monopoly. That's a bit tric
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Have they demonstrated that they want a walled garden, or have they demonstrated that they will accept a walled garden?
Re:This is stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Not competition for its own sake. What would be the point of that? It's competition that furthers the interest of consumers. As you can find out very quickly from a search, eg "The premise of the antitrust laws is that consumers benefit when there is full and fair competition."
https://www.abc-amega.com/wp-c... [abc-amega.com]
And you can tell how broken this idea is, because it *substantially increases friction* for consumers, which is not in their interests. You might want to make it easier for them to discover alternatives, but requiring them to faff around with their device with a whole bunch of extra steps before they can get value from it is a shitty solution.
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A first time phone user as in smart phone, who perhaps has not even a background in computing, would not even know what software to download.
What is an email client? What stands Firefox for (or safari for that matter)? How to find a pocket calculator?
The only thing that makes half assed sense is if for every standard app an icon is installed, and when you tab it, it sends you directly to the app store into a section focused on that type of app.
However, I as a customer expect a full working phone, when I wra
Re:This is stupid (Score:5, Informative)
Funnily enough, many people have got better things to do with their lives than figure out downloading an email app, a calendar app, etc when they get a new phone. Of course, YMMV, but that says more about you than them.
I’m perfectly aware of the concept of imperfect solutions — I’m arguing that the proposition is clearly worse for consumers than today’s model, and that no amount of twattering about why hundreds of millions of consumers need to “invest short term pain” for “long term gains” alters that.
Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
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Now this feels suddenly like a more constructive disagreement. I much prefer it to the grumpier other parts of the thread.
I agree long-term matters. I don’t agree that Apple could reasonably be described as having a monopoly, because I don’t think that it’s reasonable to define a market in terms of a single vendor’s phones. There is meaningful choice in the market, because Android doesn’t work the same way and the barriers to switching are not excessively high nor artificial.
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I also don't agree that Apple has a monopoly. However, I do think they have enough of a share to harm the market, and for anti-trust legislation to kick in - especially since there is really only one viable alternative. If Windows Phone had done better maybe things would be different.
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I'm a lazy clown who's so apathetic that I can't grasp the concept of long-term gains for short-term discomfort.
As someone that provides technical support for a living, it's not about being lazy. Apathetic might be accurate, but has a more negative connotation. People don't care about things they're not interested in. They just want them to work. I don't do my own car repairs. I don't swap to performance parts or anything. Sure, installing an app isn't as labor intensive as installing a new exhaust or something. But, it still requires people to actually know what they're doing and be able to make informed decisions t
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It’s hilarious that you blather on about laziness while making a lazy assumption that you know that my comment was driven out of my personal laziness. This was not the case. I was thinking of the hundreds of millions of end users who could not give two hoots that you are so very very proud of having learned Linux, because they want to use their phone to call family members, and connect with friends, and to check their calendar, and to take photos, and a thousand other ordinary and sometimes amazing th
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This is the likes of Spotify complaining that they can't compete.
Follow the bribe or baksheesh that the good politician took, and you can bet your bottom piaster that one Mark Zukerberg was the provider of the provender.
Remember, The Facebook empire is pissed at Apple for not allowing them to sell your Data to groups like Cambridge Anal.
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"Sometimes the government is there to protect the mob from itself. People are very good at working against their own interests due to short-sightedness or active manipulation by a bad actor."
That is the last thing the government should be in the business of. People should be responsible for themselves. We don't need a nanny government bubble wrapping everything and bureaucrats deciding what's in everyone's best interest. Give them that power, and suddenly they're also deciding who you vote for (or protect
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Unless the OS actively stops or impedes you from installing another program for X purpose there is no antitrust in my eyes. I remember Quicktime crying crocodile tears over how WMP being bundled with Windows cut into their userbase, when the simple truth is that Quicktime offered nothing that made it worth using over WMP.
Apple however makes third-party app installs a pain in the ass, and as such I consider it a problem.
Re:This is stupid (Score:4, Informative)
Apple however makes third-party app installs a pain in the ass, and as such I consider it a problem.
I have an iPhone. If I want to install a 3rd-party app, I open the App Store, select an app, and click "Get". What is so painful about this?
Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
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Thats an app store app. 3rd party would be a program i made that is not in the app store but otherwise would run. In android its called side-loading and you have to enable trust third party apps.
I would consider a 3rd-party app to be one that is not made by Apple. But hey... semantics.
Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
Im the first person
You're the second person
Earlier today he was in the third person
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Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
And I-donâ(TM)t-know posts here regularly.
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As a developer, I have no problems installing any app I created using XCode. Distributing to lots of people is an issue, installing my own code on my own device is simple.
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Thats an app store app. 3rd party would be a program i made that is not in the app store but otherwise would run. In android its called side-loading and you have to enable trust third party apps.
I can go outside the play store and install apps. I do it all the time. It is so easy that the idea that you can't is one of those fake memes. But regardless, this had facebooks stench all over it, Zuk is royally pissed at Apple's reluctance to allow Facebook to weaponize your personal Data, Now I get it that some people hate Apple because reason. .s Just remember that supporting this effort is support for outfits like Cambridge Analytica, an the rampant data harvesting that is going on right now on Face
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I have an iPhone. If I want to install a 3rd-party app, I open the App Store, select an app, and click "Get". What is so painful about this?
I have an iPhone. I installed Google Maps. What's so painful about that? ... every time I click on an address link from Apple Contacts or Outlook, rather than taking me to the address in Google Maps, it instead prompts me to install Apple Maps.
I think it's a clear-cut case of Apple using their dominance on the platform to unfairly bolster their mapping app.
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I have an iPhone. I installed Google Maps. What's so painful about that? ... every time I click on an address link from Apple Contacts or Outlook, rather than taking me to the address in Google Maps, it instead prompts me to install Apple Maps.
I think it's a clear-cut case of Apple using their dominance on the platform to unfairly bolster their mapping app.
The original discussion was about whether Apple was stopping or impeding you from installing and using another app in place of a built-in one. While I can see how you would like to have Google Maps more tightly integrated with other apps, that is really taking it to another level. You have the choice of installing and using Google Maps, and I presume that when you are in the app, it functions as designed.
Re: This is stupid (Score:2)
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That was their decision to not be in the App store
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Apple however makes third-party app installs a pain in the ass, and as such I consider it a problem.
Seriously only a 14 year old would say that (I'm not calling you a child, I literally mean someone who has never lived in a pre-iPhone era). Anyone who has ever used a computer before iPhones were on the market would laugh at this assertion. The iPhone was literally the introduction of the easiest system ever created to install an app. Far easier than apt or rpm is on Linux, and orders of magnitude easier than what came on the PC or god forbid smartphones (yes they existed before the iPhone) before that.
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Apple however makes third-party app installs a pain in the ass, and as such I consider it a problem.
Seriously only a 14 year old would say that (I'm not calling you a child, I literally mean someone who has never lived in a pre-iPhone era). Anyone who has ever used a computer before iPhones were on the market would laugh at this assertion. The iPhone was literally the introduction of the easiest system ever created to install an app. Far easier than apt or rpm is on Linux, and orders of magnitude easier than what came on the PC or god forbid smartphones (yes they existed before the iPhone) before that.
It's just the innate need of many humans to hate something with a spittle mouthed passion. The ease with which I install programs on my Apple devices has ma hardly using the play store at all.
Then again, in the Ford versus Chevy aspect of these arguments, the truth is the first casualty. Or maybe OP cant figure out how to do it.
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Backwards (Score:2)
You got it backwards. The structuralist argument is that a monopoly is illegal if it has an inflationary effect on prices. IE, only if it effects the consumer directly. Otherwise, you are reading tea leaves as to whether or not a monopoly is abusing it's position or not.
Anyways, it predated Regan by a few years. The primary supreme court case was in 1977, and circuit decisions went back to the early 70's, at least.
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Antitrust law is the wrong place to look at improving competition in mobile.
FCC regulations are the major barrier to entry.
Look at the issues Purism has had with the Librem 5, and Pine64 with the PinePhone.
We make all these regulations that privilege established players, then try to fix it in another layer of the stack.
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There is competition. People can choose something other than iPhone. The iPhone is a vendor specific closed system. There should not be laws that prevent a closed system from being operated the way the vendor wants. Antitrust law exists to prevent a company from forcing competitor's hands and having a closed system doesn't do that. If anything the company should be looking at Android. Android not being a closed system nor a 1st party OS should not come with Google apps preinstalled on anything other than Pi
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Apple is selling the platform to consumers. The App Store is a big part of that platform. There were alternatives before the iPhone which did not have the App Store model. There have been alternatives since with and without. The App Store model seems to be winning in the minds of consumers.
camera ? (Score:2)
As I understand it, Apple's recent phones come with sophisticated circuitry, some kind of AI and really amazing software for camera operation. Should they give equal opportunity for users to instead install camera software without these advantages?
I'm sure the other phones are similarly equipped for optimal camera performance within their particular environment. Again, what outside company can make better camera software?
Sure, an outside company can make addon software to 'enhance' or modify photos. None ca
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There are fairly advanced alternative camera apps for Android phones.
Dedicated digital camera companies most certainly CAN compete with a cellphone manufacturer. Don't write off the likes of Sony in digital imaging software.
Re: camera ? (Score:2)
Now do Android (Score:2)
I'd love to get rid of a shit-ton of apps that I'll never use on my Android devices. Yes I can root and remove them but they shouldn't be there to begin with; it's all bloatware.
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Look into Android One phones.
YES! (Score:3)
Samsung shitware is designed by South Koreans who have North Korean empathy levels. All software not pure Android or necessary driver blobs should be optional since Samsung shovelware devours hdd space which works against installing other software in addition to it.
A major focus of custom ROMs is debloating because IRREMOVABLE BLOAT IS PART AND PARCEL OF VENDOR LOCK.
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Now try Samsung. They have all of Android's, plus their own that you can uninstall, but magically reinstall whenever you do!
Yeah, um, not the same thing (Score:2)
This isn't the same thing as Microsoft's attempt to own the internet. Nobody is forcing you to use any one of those apps. Microsoft wanted to integrate Explorer into the OS. Safari et al are not integrated into iOS.
Re:Yeah, um, not the same thing (Score:4, Informative)
Depends on your definition of "integrated." Webkit is indeed a part of iOS, and all browsers are required to use as their engine. No competitive html engines are allowed. Safari is just a user interface. This is of course orthogonal to the proposed legislation because they seem ignoring this fundamental, underlying issue with iOS and Apple's requirements for third-party app publishing. This is what the lawmakers should be looking at, not the "apps" that are bundled.
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All it's going to do is make Apple produce a flashscreen at setup saying "Download the Apple experience!" and the user will be forced to wait a further ten minutes before they can use their phone. If you want to go after walled gardens, you don't make them ship a phone denuded of usability and force users to download what they expect, you look at the rules that make the walled garden what it is.
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This isn't the same thing as Microsoft's attempt to own the internet. Nobody is forcing you to use any one of those apps. Microsoft wanted to integrate Explorer into the OS. Safari et al are not integrated into iOS.
Even if it was the same thing, Microsoft didn't lose that fight, they integrated it with the OS as tightly as they wanted, whether anyone liked it or not. Windows 98 did ship with IE and Active Desktop after all. It was literally their argument, that since it was an integral part of the OS, they couldn't unbundle it.
I vividly remember my desktop background crashing daily, *shudder*
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I vividly remember my desktop background crashing daily, *shudder*
Why didn't you just disable active desktop?
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Not only is the browser preinstalled, and non-removable, you can't even use a third party browser that uses its own HTML/CSS/JavaScript engines. All other browsers are basically just skins of Safari.
Could you imagine if Microsoft tried to do that with Windows and Internet Explorer?
Re: Yeah, um, not the same thing (Score:2)
Why is this news? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is proposed legislation from a member of Congress with zero chance of passing the Senate and only a marginal chance of passing the House. Might as well comment on a proposed bill ending the second law of thermodynamics to get free electricity.
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Might as well comment on a proposed bill ending the second law of thermodynamics to get free electricity.
You know, if you could phrase that as "deregulation" and supporting Texas independence from Federal interference, you might get Senator Ted Cruz to put forward a bill like this.
SLOT is illegal and unconstitutional. (Score:2)
How can you call yourself and American, and supporter of Freedom, if you support a law that denies people Free Energy!
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Might as well comment on a proposed bill ending the second law of thermodynamics to get free electricity.
To be fair, if there was such a proposal, it would certainly get posted on slashdot. Probably multiple times.
Like the ipad's calculator (Score:5, Informative)
All I wanted was a simple calculator. But instead of being able to just use a simple calculator supplied by apple, I had to waste a considerable amount of time weeding out obnoxious adware, rentable software, "My first ipad app", and other garbage, before just giving up and using "Numbers." You'd think that hp48 clones and the like would dominate-- but no...
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I don't understand why Apple didn't preinstall its iOS calculator app like they do in iPhones. Same for weather and others.
If I buy a phone... (Score:2)
...it should be mine to do with as I please. That includes changing the operating system, connecting to whichever repositories I want & installing & removing whatever software I want, when I want. If I don't want bloatware, restrictive software, or surveillance on it, it should be easy to remove it. I should have root access & be able to reconfigure system files & settings to suit my personal needs & interests, e.g. make my phone secure & private. I should also be able to have it rep
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This is a stupid read of the bill. (Score:3)
The bill in question is the American Choice and Innovation Online Act HR 3816. And in particular this comes from Sec. 2 (a)(1-2)
(a) Violation.—It shall be unlawful for a person operating a covered platform, in or affecting commerce, to engage in any conduct in connection with the operation of the covered platform that—
(1) advantages the covered platform operator’s own products, services, or lines of business over those of another business user;
(2) excludes or disadvantages the products, services, or lines of business of another business user relative to the covered platform operator’s own products, services, or lines of business; or
And the reason this is a dumb read because there exists an Affirmative Defense.
(c) Affirmative defense.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Subsection (a) and (b) shall not apply if the defendant establishes by clear and convincing evidence that the conduct described in subsections (a) or (b)—
(B) was narrowly tailored, could not be achieved through a less discriminatory means, was nonpretextual, and was necessary to
Apple could absolutely include a calendar, they just couldn't tie it to their cloud service. That is, you get to pick you CalDAV server. Same for contacts, same for a majority of other apps. The only rub would be the App Store and that would require
SEC. 4. Bureau of digital markets.
(a) Establishment of bureau.—As soon as practicable, but not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Federal Trade Commission shall establish within the Commission a bureau of digital markets for purposes of enforcement of this Act.
This bureau that hasn't been created to determine if a replacement for the App Store could be made. So like Epic, if they jumped in there, then yeah, Apple would have to pull the App Store's advance functions and leave a core function that allowed other stores to be installed (or whatever way this bureau determined, I'm just making stuff up at this point because this department doesn't exist). The point being is that if there's only one way to do it, then Apple has a defense. The thing Apple can't do is prevent actively a new way of doing things to be done. And it's up to this bureau to figure out how to transition from one to many ways, and to do so "fairly".
The point being is this is some Bloomberg taking an anthill and blowing it up to planetary size. There's absolutely room to grow on this bill, but if they went ahead with this version, it's not a bad thing. Additionally, this bill is one of FIVE different bills out there to start breaking up these companies. And so it's very clear that Congress doesn't have an unified vision of how to break these companies up yet, the fact that almost 70% of Congress across the aisle supports breaking Google, Amazon, Apple, Facebook, and so on up should have those companies start moving into how to plan for the inevitable. Because as soon as Congress can agree to any one of these bills, they've got votes to move it to the President's desk post-haste and make it veto proof.
Phone App (Score:2)
Am I going to buy a âoephoneâ that canâ(TM)t make phone calls nor SMS if they donâ(TM)t let Apple bundle the Phone app?
Its a phone (Score:2)
So, you expect me to buy a phone that has no phone app? If it has no apps, which would include an app store app of some kind because there is no side loading on the iPhone, how am I to install anything?
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
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What is "free" about Apple products? I don't know what you are referring to.
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Unlike most people I'm willing to pay for quality software. And with Apple I'm pretty sure I'm paying for hardware and software, especially since I cannot replace iOS.
Does this legislation define what an "App" is ? (Score:2)
I think in the big picture, the definition of an "App" is rather ambiguous.
Original iPhone Concept (Score:3)
Part of the vetting done by the App Store was about battery-life, and background processes. Apps were (originally) not allowed to run anything in the background. The iPhone always had background processes, but they were limited in order to maintain battery life. The problem worrying Apple was: Suzy installs some Awesome! app that runs constantly in the background, draining the battery and wasting bandwidth. Two weeks later, Suzy realizes that her phone is sluggish, and needs recharging twice per day. But Suzy doesn't realize the problem is that Awesome! app; she blames the iPhone, and Apple. At the time, this was a common problem on Windows PCs.
Today, it might be reasonable to relax those strict rules, and allow side-loading. But they were originally intended to protect Apple customers, and Apple's reputation.
It's the wrong problem (Score:2)
Removing the default apps is an action to encourage non-tech savy to install alternative things in the market (as presumably tech savy people will investigate stuff themselves).
But show a non-tech savy person 5 different photo apps and they'll have a damn hard time picking the best one.
Like that version of EU windows that asked which browser you want. I'm sure that question made almost no sense to non-tech people, and tech people would have just instantly used IE to download Firefox/Chrome/etc anyway.
I woul
Fascinating (Score:2)
https://www.statista.com/stati... [statista.com] Occams razor tells me that Facebook, who is really pissed that Apple is trying to limit FB's weaponized data sales, is greasing the palm of our elected criminals.
How Apple would implement it (Score:3)
1. Most people now upgrade their iphone to a new one. A handy feature at the end of the initial setup is the icloud restore of all your apps and their config data. This would now also download the Apple apps.
2. If you install a new iphone from scratch, the last screen will be: do you want to install Appleâ(TM)s base software packages now so you can start using your phone immediately? Yes, or in a corner of the screen skip.
Many people, myself included would choose for the base Apple apps. They work well without ads. Imagine having to sort through numerous calculator apps to find a neat and free one that does not show ads and will not try to datamine me.
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Windows 3.1 had a pre-installed calculator.
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Re: Tabula Rasa (Score:2)
At least it didn't have Reversi!
Well except maybe in Nebraska...
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AFAIK many countries already ban Google from bundling their apps with GMS on Android, I suppose it was only a matter of time before that started applying to Apple.
Re: Tabula Rasa (Score:2)
And it's never prosecuted in reality.
I hate preinstalled Facebook app.
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And the OS. I'd rather have Linux, and not pay for the Apple OS, but last time I checked (well, it's a decade or so ago now) they made decent hardware.
Re: Tabula Rasa (Score:2)
Apple hardware is really overrated. "You're holding it wrong" and butterfly keyboards is only the beginning.
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Apple hardware isn't overrated, their engineering can be at times. Cooling has always been an Apple problem. GPU issues and surface-mount components frying, solder problems, etc. Not arguing that. But the *package* is unimpeachable. The MacBook Air is the gold standard for ultraportables. The MacBook Pro is arguably so for portable workstations. I work in a school district. We have thousands of them, and even after years of use they are still just as usable as the day they were pulled out of the box, and th
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Re: No apps = no app store? (Score:2)
Thereâ(TM)s what? A million and a half apps in the App Store? Thatâ(TM)s going to be one hell of a list. With no pay to play I take it?
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I assert that that should be possible. Of course, MSDOS wouldn't install without a host OS, but that shouldn't be Apple's problem. I could run a MSDOS clone on Linux if I felt like it, but that involves using a host OS. To get it to run on a modern system, you'd need to rewrite large parts of it, and it's proprietary to MS, so you'd need to get them to do it.
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You should be able to. At least in theory.
FreeDOS is open source. You could build it yourself inside of XCode and install it on your own device using your own credentials.
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There's at least several apps for that on Android.
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At least on Android, as soon as you configure.a new device, it checks for updates and refreshes most of the apps.
There is nothing green about factory images as the core apps are out of date by the time you log in to the app store.