Amazon Tried To Coerce Ecobee Into Collecting Private User Data, the WSJ Reports (theverge.com) 53
Amazon tried to use its power to coerce Ecobee into using its smart home products to collect user data by threatening Ecobee's ability to sell its products on Amazon, according to a report from The Wall Street Journal. The Verge reports: As of now, Ecobee's products can still be purchased on Amazon, but the WSJ claims that negotiations between Ecobee and Amazon are ongoing. According to the WSJ, the online retail giant asked Ecobee to share data from its Alexa-enabled smart thermostats, even when the customer wasn't actively using the voice assistant. Ecobee reportedly refused to have its devices constantly report back to Amazon about the state of the user's home, including data on which doors were locked or unlocked and the set temperature. The reasoning being that enabling its devices to report this data to Amazon would be a violation of its customer's trust.
Ecobee may have also been concerned that Amazon wanted the data to build competing products. The retail giant has a reputation for taking non-public sales data and using it to develop products -- something that's come up in antitrust investigations in the US and EU. Amazon has also been accused of using this sales data to directly copy and compete with other companies using its Amazon Basics brand.
Ecobee may have also been concerned that Amazon wanted the data to build competing products. The retail giant has a reputation for taking non-public sales data and using it to develop products -- something that's come up in antitrust investigations in the US and EU. Amazon has also been accused of using this sales data to directly copy and compete with other companies using its Amazon Basics brand.
Woh? (Score:2)
It's not OK, of course but... Who?
Re: Woh? (Score:5, Informative)
Ecobee is likely the second largest smart thermostat maker after Nest. Their special sauce is every thermostat also has a remote temperature and motion sensor and you can add more, to make a sensor network to optimize power use in your HVAC. They also make other Smarthome products.
Re: Woh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Their special sauce is every thermostat also has a remote temperature and motion sensor and you can add more, to make a sensor network to optimize power use in your HVAC. They also make other Smarthome products.
Which is why I went with Ecobee. As with many home, the thermostats are located in teh hallway, which is probably the worst in terms of controlling temperature for occupied spaces. Ecobee’s design senses what rooms are occupied and adjusts the HVAC system’s output accordingly; which is how HVAC systems should have been designed anyway.
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I hope it can sense people who are asleep and not moving. I once stayed at a "green" hotel. Every few hours I had to sit up in bed and wave my arms to keep the A/C running. My "green" office light can't detect me working at my desk. If I want to keep the lights on I have to pick up my trash can and wave it around. I disabled the ceiling lights and use a floor lamp on dark days. I'm probably saving power, since I rarely turn it on.
From looking at my data it appears to register room occupied periodically while asleep; I’m guessing the normal sleep movements will trigger it as it isn’t always showing “occupied” but does so at periodic intervals.
Years ago I worked in an office with “smart” switches and would have to wave my arms periodically to keep the light on. My office had a glass wall so if someone was walking by and saw me waving they’d stop in
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Which is why I went with Ecobee. As with many home, the thermostats are located in teh hallway, which is probably the worst in terms of controlling temperature for occupied spaces. Ecobeeâ(TM)s design senses what rooms are occupied and adjusts the HVAC systemâ(TM)s output accordingly; which is how HVAC systems should have been designed anyway.
I never understood what people expect to gain with this considering there is only a binary choice of the thing being on or off or high/low if you are lucky. There is no way to heat or cool individual rooms with most forced air HVAC systems.
Temperature averaging at multiple locations is helpful to avoid oscillations yet beyond that system design to account for losses and airflow is what matters not how fancy the controls are. People are more sensitive to change in temperatures rather than absolute temperat
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The difference between the temperatures can be used to keep the circulation fan on until the difference is reduced to some specified level. Or, so the minimum/maximum temperature can be the setpoint for heat/AC, for instance.
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I never understood what people expect to gain with this considering there is only a binary choice of the thing being on or off or high/low if you are lucky. There is no way to heat or cool individual rooms with most forced air HVAC systems.
Temperature averaging at multiple locations is helpful to avoid oscillations yet beyond that system design to account for losses and airflow is what matters not how fancy the controls are. People are more sensitive to change in temperatures rather than absolute temperature. Keeping a uniform temp throughout the structure and throughout time even at a lower setpoint is better than screwing with controls that can't accomplish jack to begin with.
For me it is the ability to keep a room warm when occupied. With doors shut the air circulation is reduced to the point where there can be a significant temperature delta, this allows the occupied rooms to be at a desired temperature rather than have the HVAC turn off when the main sensor registers the desire temperature. In addition, not all places have one signal zone for HVAC, they can have multiple separate zones of have the ability to isolate an area based on demand. With occupancy sensors, unused a
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For me it is the ability to keep a room warm when occupied. With doors shut the air circulation is reduced to the point where there can be a significant temperature delta,
The problem with this is it fails to address the underlying issue. It does not address the temperature differences.
When someone leaves the occupied room with the doors closed they feel hot.
When someone enters the occupied room even at the desired temperature they feel cold.
People are uncomfortable as they move about the building.
Issues with doors closed is sometimes missing or improperly sized returns.
this allows the occupied rooms to be at a desired temperature rather than have the HVAC turn off when the main sensor registers the desire temperature.
People are far more sensitive to changes in temperature than absolute temperature. Failure to prioritize
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For me it is the ability to keep a room warm when occupied. With doors shut the air circulation is reduced to the point where there can be a significant temperature delta,
The problem with this is it fails to address the underlying issue. It does not address the temperature differences.
Which is irrelevant in my situation. As long as the occupied room is comfortable the relative temperature differences are of no concern.
this allows the occupied rooms to be at a desired temperature rather than have the HVAC turn off when the main sensor registers the desire temperature.
People are far more sensitive to changes in temperature than absolute temperature. Failure to prioritize uniform temperatures leads to an uncomfortable building regardless of what the set point happens to be or how fancy the control loop of the on/off switch.
That depends on how the building is used. Not every building has people constantly moving from area to area; hence such a setup fits their needs at a cost a lot less than redoing HVAC systems.
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There is no way to heat or cool individual rooms with most forced-air HVAC systems.
"Smart" heater registers are available. They have booster fans to deliver heated/cooled air to individual rooms.
They can be built-in, or you can easily add them to an existing system. Just unscrew the old register from the floor/wall and screw on the replacement.
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"Smart" heater registers are available. They have booster fans to deliver heated/cooled air to individual rooms.
They can be built-in, or you can easily add them to an existing system. Just unscrew the old register from the floor/wall and screw on the replacement.
Smart is properly sizing supply and returns to provide uniform coverage throughout the structure. Stupid is cutting corners by applying band aids.
Attempts to block and or force air thru HVAC system is a bad idea. Forced air heating systems are calibrated by installer and designed to operate within a specific static pressure range. Fucking around without doing appropriate TR and SP measurements will damage the equipment. Too little static pressure increases HX wet time leading to premature failure. Too
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Ecobee’s design senses what rooms are occupied and adjusts the HVAC system’s output accordingly; which is how HVAC systems should have been designed anyway.
That would add a fair amount of complexity (and cost). Used to work at a small business where our location was in a small office building with one furnace. Each unit did have their own thermostat and could control their own heating and cooling but it was controlled by a (complex) damper system. Physically it wasn't that complex, but the control/electronic side of it was.
Re: Woh? (Score:2)
Re: Woh? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Sadly, there's no incentive for any of these companies to REALLY care about privacy. The fact that there are billions of people willing to have their personal data sold by Facebook, Amazon, Google, Twitter, etc is a testament to the fact that the average person doesn't give a shit or just doesn't know any better.
This is definitely about dollars, not protecting customer privacy.
Best.
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the average person doesn't give a shit
Why should they?
What bad thing is going to happen to them if Amazon knows the temperature of their kitchen?
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So your internet going out only limits your ability to control it with alexa/smartphone-app.
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Nest works the same way. You won't be able to use the app to set it, but you can still do everything from the thermostat itself, including scheduling.
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It works fine when the internet goes out. It just stops getting weather information and you're not able to remotely control it. It remembers the schedule you have set and you can always walk up to it and adjust it.
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Ecobee is likely the second largest smart thermostat maker after Nest. Their special sauce is every thermostat also has a remote temperature and motion sensor and you can add more, to make a sensor network to optimize power use in your HVAC. They also make other Smarthome products.
Too early. I was thinking Jollibee [wikipedia.org] when I read Ecobee.
Need. Coffee. Now.
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Ecobee is likely the second largest smart thermostat maker after Nest. Their special sauce is every thermostat also has a remote temperature and motion sensor and you can add more, to make a sensor network to optimize power use in your HVAC. They also make other Smarthome products.
Series parallel resistor networks date back to the 1800s and the savings claims are more marketing scam than reality.
You need substantial and sustained setbacks to see any meaningful savings and with energy efficient HVAC equipment (GSHP) such control strategies are counterproductive and will end up costing you money. Further in some climates it is dangerous to setback temperatures into the low-mid 60s with 90% as resulting condensation will literally rot out the secondary heat exchanger which is the prim
Due to competition, not privacy (Score:4, Insightful)
Ecobee is now also in the Smarthome / Home Security market. This service makes money for them.
Amazon also has a paid for enhanced security service as part of Alexa Guard.
If Ecobees data was all flowing to Amazon then why would I ever buy Ecobees security plan when Amazon's is cheaper.
This has a lot more to do with making money than protecting privacy.
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its a ruse... none of it protects you.... IF you are home and its a home invasion, you are already dead or raped by the time authorities arrive, and the criminals are long gone.
Home security cameras don't protect you? Tell that to the two dead FBI agents [cbslocal.com]
Re:jail? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh you sweet summer child... do you still think corporations are subject to the same laws as normal people?
Even if this was a crime, corporations can't be put in jail or executed. The best you could hope for is a fine and they'll happily write that off as a cost of doing business and keep committing the crime if it's profitable.
Not Surprising (Score:2)
What to do. What to do. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm trying to think of a way in which people can register their disgust with Amazon's policies and actions. Something quick and simple which would make a powerful statement. Something which doesn't cost a single penny to do and requires no effort.
Any ideas? I'm going up empty.
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I'm trying to think of a way in which people can register their disgust with Amazon's policies and actions. Something quick and simple which would make a powerful statement. Something which doesn't cost a single penny to do and requires no effort.
NOT buying things from Amazon is quick, simple, free and requires no effort. It's not as if they're usually even the cheapest.
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^^This^^
Not only is it usually not the cheapest, but I've found that deliveries are starting to exceed promised timelines and I've been bitten by fake merchandise several times in the past year or so. I have found Walmart's ecommerce site to be more reliable for deliveries, though they don't have nearly as much of a selection. Walmart is almost always cheaper (assuming they have what I want) as well.
The smart home devices (alexa and google assistant) were fun toys for a while, but we ultimately removed th
Re:What to do. What to do. (Score:5, Interesting)
A lot of people think Amazon or Walmart are shipping what they purchased. Often, they aren't. Even if you see the stupid prime badge, it still might be us with seller-fulfilled prime.
I totally agree that there are other venues that are sometimes better, but it is good to be aware that there is more nuance. It is funny when a customer tells us they are going to buy elsewhere, and we see their name pop up on another one of our many stores. Yeah, you really stuck it to us!
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It's pretty confusing. I really dislike how Amazon makes it hard to tell what is being shipped from the amazon warehouse versus private seller. i know it's possible, but I don't want to deal with 3rd party shippers. The reason I use amazon is because everything works fast. Just yesterday I accidentally ordered something which turned out to be 3rd party shipped even though I clicked the prime toggle.
On the flip side, even the reverse is now happening. I suspect amazon did this to compete with shopify. I went
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Good for ecobee (Score:3, Insightful)
And Yet Ecobee Has Your Data (Score:2)
and that is OK. And selling it to gosh knows who. Protected by gosh knows who.
someone with deep pockets should step in (Score:2)
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Amazon's web app isn't very good. They don't need it to be because they're primarily a warehousing and shipping company. A nonprofit website doesn't help. Aggregating all the WooCommerce sites is an interesting approach, but shipping is hella expensive on low-cost goods at retail.
Amazon just joined my evil doers list (Score:2)
GoogleFacebookAmazon
ChinaJapanNKorea
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https://www.urbandictionary.co... [urbandictionary.com]
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How did Japan get on your list?
Don't let them connect the dots (Score:1)
Long time Ecobee user here.... (Score:2)
And I *just* bought the new Ecobee 4 that has the Alexa functionality built into it. To be honest, I wish I hadn't. The implementation of Alexa in the Ecobee 4 is really basic. It lacks the ability the Echo devices all have to detect WHERE a voice command is coming from when you have more than one of them in use. So saying, "Alexa, what's the temperature?" will often result in BOTH the thermostat and a nearby Echo Dot trying to respond at the same time, OR the thermostat you're closest not not respondin
Well, that's a smoking gun! (Score:1)
FUCK YOU, Amazon. They need to be taken down.
Hmm... (Score:2)
This seems like great data to have stored in the cloud. /s