Report Claims America's CIA Also Controlled a Second Swiss Encryption Firm (courthousenews.com) 100
Long-time Slashdot reader SonicSpike brings this report from AFP:
Swiss politicians have voiced outrage and demanded an investigation after revelations that a second Swiss encryption company was allegedly used by the CIA and its German counterpart to spy on governments worldwide. "How can such a thing happen in a country that claims to be neutral like Switzerland?" co-head of Switzerland's Socialist Party, Cedric Wermuth, asked in an interview with Swiss public broadcaster SRF late Thursday. He called for a parliamentary inquiry after an SRF investigation broadcast on Wednesday found that a second Swiss encryption firm had been part of a spectacular espionage scheme orchestrated by U.S. and German intelligence services.
A first investigation had revealed back in February an elaborate, decades-long set-up, in which the CIA and its German counterpart creamed off the top-secret communications of governments through their hidden control of a Swiss encryption company called Crypto.
SRF's report this week found that a second but smaller Swiss encryption firm, Omnisec, had been used in the same way.
That company, which was split off from Swiss cryptographic equipment maker Gretag in 1987, sold voice, fax and data encryption equipment to governments around the world until it halted operations two years ago. SRF's investigative program Rundschau concluded that, like Crypto, Omnisec had sold manipulated equipment to foreign governments and armies. Omnisec meanwhile also sold its faulty OC-500 series devices to several federal agencies in Switzerland, including its own intelligence agencies, as well as to Switzerland's largest bank, UBS, and other private companies in the country, the SRF investigation showed.
The findings unleashed fresh outrage in Switzerland, which is still reeling from the Crypto revelations.
The first compromised cryptography company "served for decades as a Trojan horse to spy on governments worldwide," according to the article, citing news reports from SRF, the Washington Post and German broadcaster ZDF. "The company supplied devices for encoded communications to some 120 countries from after World War II to the beginning of this century, including to Iran, South American governments, India and Pakistan.
"Unknown to those governments, Crypto was secretly acquired in 1970 by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency together with the then West Germanyâ(TM)s BND Federal Intelligence Service."
A first investigation had revealed back in February an elaborate, decades-long set-up, in which the CIA and its German counterpart creamed off the top-secret communications of governments through their hidden control of a Swiss encryption company called Crypto.
SRF's report this week found that a second but smaller Swiss encryption firm, Omnisec, had been used in the same way.
That company, which was split off from Swiss cryptographic equipment maker Gretag in 1987, sold voice, fax and data encryption equipment to governments around the world until it halted operations two years ago. SRF's investigative program Rundschau concluded that, like Crypto, Omnisec had sold manipulated equipment to foreign governments and armies. Omnisec meanwhile also sold its faulty OC-500 series devices to several federal agencies in Switzerland, including its own intelligence agencies, as well as to Switzerland's largest bank, UBS, and other private companies in the country, the SRF investigation showed.
The findings unleashed fresh outrage in Switzerland, which is still reeling from the Crypto revelations.
The first compromised cryptography company "served for decades as a Trojan horse to spy on governments worldwide," according to the article, citing news reports from SRF, the Washington Post and German broadcaster ZDF. "The company supplied devices for encoded communications to some 120 countries from after World War II to the beginning of this century, including to Iran, South American governments, India and Pakistan.
"Unknown to those governments, Crypto was secretly acquired in 1970 by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency together with the then West Germanyâ(TM)s BND Federal Intelligence Service."
black box, suckers (Score:5, Insightful)
imagine not using an open source cryptography system
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wow, your tin foil hat news site sure is more exciting than the ordinary real news.
Re: black box, suckers (Score:5, Insightful)
Brings new light on the huawei situation too... You can't trust a black box commercial system for anything important. The US suspects china of using huawei for spying because it's exactly the thing they have done themselves. Only the CIA were smart enough to infiltrate supposedly neutral third parties.
Either you develop a system in house from scratch using appropriately vetted and qualified personnel, or you take an open source system and ensure it gets thoroughly reviewed in house by appropriately vetted and qualified personnel.
The open source approach is a lot less work, especially if several rival countries are doing the same thing. A system approved for use by one country could well have backdoors implanted by that country, but a system approved for use by usa/russia/china/iran is far less likely to have any backdoors.
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Interesting)
You can't trust a black box commercial system for anything important
Note that this is something we've known for a long time, at least as long as I've known about cryptography, and yet somehow people keep making the same mistake.
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, because the people making the purchasing decisions don't understand these things, and/or are unduly influenced by a vendor trying to sell them something.
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Informative)
You can't trust a black box commercial system
Huawei provided source code to at least several governments.
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but its doubtful the source they are giving for inspection is the source they are running....
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Informative)
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is the whole point of China. I think people don't get this. When it comes to international markets, capitalists values trump all for China. This is because China realizes economic dependency by a foreign nation means security from that nation being too absurd which includes any type of physical conflict, political pressure, etc. This is generally referred to as Chinese "soft power". Once China controls a large portion of your supply chain, they can use economic pressure against you to obtain it's objectives. By providing source code and insight into the ease of building the software, they want everyone to consume their hardware and in turn that dependency which is the real power. There is no need to listen in on the line when they can cripple your ability to maintain your infrastructure... this kind of "small fry" mentality is exactly why America is falling behind and China maintains a steadfast path towards achieving it's objectives.
Likewise there is a very big difference between the internal objectives of the Chinese states and the outward objectives. The nature of these objectives seems to at least go back to Mao's awareness that true communism cannot exist instantaneously within global capitalism. China thus uses this rather sound strategy to build it's economic dominance while raising the quality of life for the Chinese people. Likewise the degree China would uses it's "soft power" to for "nation building" outside China is an open question. It's clear this can be used to pressure against support for certain things (e.g. three Ts) and that it considers all Chinese dissidents effectively still Chinese citizens but it still seems unclear how much it would affect the average American's lifestyle. The assumption here is the power that Chinese gaining will corrupt, as the idiom goes.
Either way, westerners seem to often fail to understand the real nature of Chinese global economics and in an attempt to undermine their growth often seek what is little more than baseless slander to turn markets away from their goods...
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Avoiding becoming dependent on foreign goods is a perfectly sensible strategy precisely because of the reasons you've highlighted. Even in the absence of backdoors (and indeed there is no evidence of backdoors in huawei equipment), you don't want to become dependent on a single supplier as that might allow that supplier and/or the country they are based in to have unwanted leverage over you.
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Except the numerous occasions then Huawei stole Cisco source code? It's difficult to have confidence in the safety or reliability or source code you didn't write and dare not expose publicly. Examples include:
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/S... [wsj.com]
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You surely mean "example". There aren't multiple examples of Huawei stealing Cisco's source code. All reports are from an incident close to 2 decades ago.
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How is this an exception to what i said?
Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Interesting)
The Chinese literally can't do anything right in your eyes, can they? No matter what it is you will find some way to twist it into an evil conspiracy to dominate the world.
This is just normal capitalism. Apple isn't run by Pinky & The Brain, they are not trying to take over the world by making everyone dependent on an iPhone. They are trying to make as much money as possible. Occasionally that even results in good behaviour, like their focus on privacy.
As for interdependence, it's worked out great in Europe. What finally stopped centuries of wars was the EU, economic union that make armed conflict impossible. It goes both ways too, China's economy is dependent on us.
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I didn't say China was doing anything wrong or that it was an evil conspiracy. In fact I agree with you, this is just normal capitalism.
Likewise I agree about the interdependency between China and the US economy and in general it can improve value in supply chains. Tesla is clearly looking to utilize it. Apply utilizes it. Many think China will be replaced by other markets like Vietnam in a race to the bottom but I think this underplays again the first point, China shows wisdom at the long term aspects of g
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As long as it's a dictatorship controlled by the CCP, I tend to agree with him.
In democracies you don't have ruling party, which can order any corporation to do its bidding.
What I wonder about is why people choose to forget, that it's a communist country? That's kinda important.
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When it comes to international markets, capitalists values trump all for China.
When it comes to China, authoritarianism trumps all. Their economic policies are predictable; everyone makes deals they think will benefit them the most. As long as the world fails to hold them to account, they will continue to get away with whatever they can, just like everyone else. The fundamental problem is that human greed leads others to enable them so that they can get a piece of that sweet slave labor profit.
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Sorry, typical american idiot.
"China" simply wants to be left alone, that is all.
But you push them into a corner they don't want be in and don't belong into. Obviously they push back.
No idea where this China hatred is coming from, recent 10 years. Why can you not let them find their own way?
During the end of cold war, west Germany approached east Germany via negotiants, whole Germany approached Russia via negotiants.
It worked. Why the funk you want to make a country, you can not compete with anyway, your en
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I don't hate China. I actually love and hope to spend the rest of my life in China.
I don't really have a response to the rest of your comment.
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My understanding is that whereas Huawei have indeed shared source code with various governments and customers, they've been having trouble with the reproduceability of their builds, such that it was difficult for the reviewers of the provided source code to determine whether the binaries had indeed been built from that source code (and from nothing else besides).
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Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Interesting)
Hence the qualifying statement "appropriately vetted and qualified personnel".
Governments most definitely are able to hire such coding teams, and the cost isn't going to be prohibitive for critical systems, especially if you're sensible and keep the systems as small as possible.
The only alternative to auditing existing code yourself, is writing new code from scratch which is likely to be even more time consuming.
Your examples show malware that was detected, the mere fact that these things were detected quickly shows that processes are working. I'm far more concerned about compromises or malware that hasn't been detected.
Also while source being available doesn't mean that someone has looked at it, it only means that someone could have. The alternative with closed source is worse, you know that no independent security researchers have looked at it. Any researchers who have looked at it (if any) are likely under NDA, and the source could have been acquired via nefarious means and distributed to blackhat groups.
So it's in a better position, not perfect but still better. Unless you can find a better alternative, we have to take what's available.
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Re: black box, suckers (Score:4, Informative)
So in other words "Unless you are the head of a country which has the unlimited resources to vet these millions of lines of code the FOSS hypothesis is based on bullshit" because again you show NO EVIDENCE to back up your assumption that every bit of code in the ecosystem you are looking at has been properly vetted.
Oh shit, shut the fuck up immediately. The value proposition of FOSS has never been "that every bit of code in the ecosystem you are looking at has been properly vetted" and by moving the goalposts there you are being a disingenuous douchebag.
The idea is that many eyes have more chances to catch bugs than proprietary software, where the code is often looked at by only a couple people, and more importantly can only be looked at by a couple people. The proposition of FOSS is that if you want and/or can afford to, you can fix the problems with it yourself. If it is critical to your business then you can hire some talent to do the work, even if you don't have the skills yourself.
We know there are long-lasting holes in FOSS because we find them. But closed-source software is a black box. We can poke at it with tools designed to analyze binaries, but we can't do the same kind of analysis which would be possible with the sources. It's safest to assume that it has the same kinds of holes in it, but nobody finds and fixes them because it is not of commercial relevance. They're on to the new thing. But the people who do know how to analyze binaries for security faults are still doing their thing, and still finding security holes in that software through all the usual means like fuzzing, injection, etc.
In short, we know that the FOSS model pays dividends specifically because we see its failures, and see them corrected. And we have reason to believe that it produces better results because of what we know of the closed source development process, which is not fundamentally different except that less people have eyes on the code. And also in short, you are grossly mischaracterizing the argument to make yourself sound more intelligent than you really are.
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Where did i claim that "every bit of code in the ecosystem you are looking at has been properly vetted" ?
I claimed that source code being available gives you the opportunity to audit the code if you have the motivation and resources to do so. This is an undeniable fact, and relevant to this article. Did the crypto companies provide customers with the source code to their backdoored products?
I even advocated that governments should perform their own reviews of the code irrespective of what existing checks ha
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I don't think you ever worked for government funded projects. They are ALWAYS under-budgeted, over-budget and cut costs everywhere possible. I'm involved with dozens of government projects today, Windows XP, Windows 7, is the order of the day. A few weeks ago I had to rescue a floppy drive that still gets used daily (so it wore out). Today, I had a heated argument with one pointy haired team lead who blamed me for Adobe Creative Suite no longer activating, they literally did not budget in the last 10 years
Re: The Kraken has been released! Nice DISTRACTION (Score:2)
Wow it's sure nice when somebody both poops (swastikas) and pees ("Trump 2020") on a /. discussion (not). =\
Never mind. (Score:2)
How many Swiss companies are NOT owned by the CIA (Score:2, Informative)
I mean really, after WW II, we must gone over there and said "Look, we know you guys got all that stolen jewish gold. You can keep it, just do a little bit of work for us on the side...
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Please don't make baseless accusations against Swatch [swatch.com].
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Am I the only one that noticed that all the fucking trumptards on this site post anonymously ?
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While I understand the initial reasons for anon posting, times are different, /. needs to stop anon posting. Sure, jackholes can still make bots, using dummy accounts and whatnot, but it's a lot more work than if they allow anon posting.
Re:The DNC is probably owned by China, so... (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdot doesn't actually allow anonymous posting. You have to log in. So the admins can find out who you are. You can choose to hide your identity from the community. If someone has a substantive complaint, Slashdot management can handle it.
times are different
Have we really descended to the level of the PRC? Where everyone has to protect their social credit score in fear of retribution at the hands of the collective? I thought we still had until Jan 20.
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The whole social credit score thing is such a meme. Have you been to China? No? Do you know anyone in China? No? Exactly. You refer to something that's as beta as something like Tesla fully autonomous driving or like UBI in western countries. It's just an idea people are toying with and it's not even that bad.
Do you know in San Francisco you can get banned from public transportation. That's what social credit score means. It means if you are fucking asshole, you might lose your privilege to use social servi
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[2013] The Bay Area Rapid Transit system, which serves San Francisco and Oakland, will be able to ban people for several offenses. The San Francisco Chronicle runs down the list of what could get someone banned: — Arrested or convicted for a misdemeanor or felony on a train or BART property [list snipped]
What does it take to get banned from a transit system? [washingtonpost.com]
I guess if those are the types of offenses you categorize as making someone an asshole, then yes, they can get you a temporary ban. But anyone that takes a dump on th
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He is defending and promoting the censorship of opposing voices to his own, I'm sure that murdering those that don't agree with him is okay too.
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For doing something specific relating to that area; how many people have been banned from BART because they questioned government policy? It is no way similar to being anything from mildly inconvenienced to denied anything approaching a normal life if "the state" decides you're a problem. The OP was wrong to talk about social credit as though it was some widespread practice at the moment, but pu
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but punishing citizens for not being blindly loyal to the state by restricting their access to services is incredibly widespread in China
And how do you know that, when you actually never have been in China?
Re: The DNC is probably owned by China, so... (Score:2)
exactly. they don't know this and they cannot cite a single example. I am sure their inability to cite an example is something they would blame censorship. The whole thing is a group monkey dance.
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exactly.
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Have you been to China? No?
Taiwan. But I guess that's not China. So ...
Do you know anyone in China? No?
In Hong Kong and from Hong Kong. But that's not China either ...
Do you know what's happening to Falun Gong or the Uhigers? How difficult it is to move around anywhere in China without facial recognition or having to use a smart phone app just to get around?
or like UBI in western countries.
There it is. Big meanie won't give me money. Thinks that there is nothing wrong with a bit of character building that associating with other people to produce goods or services of mutual value to both facilitat
Re: The DNC is probably owned by China, so... (Score:2)
Falun gong proposes that cancer can be cured with exercise. it's a dangerous ideology for a superstitious people.
Uyghurs, oh right, "there it is". Do you know what's happening to Hui Chinese? Oh nothing? But China hates all Muslims right? Maybe Uyghurs did something to get treated different. Oh that's right they rallied for independence and had other terrorist individuals. You can not argue about the nature of the Chinese system in any meaningful way by ignoring most the facts.
Oh good job parroting HK
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Oh good job parroting HK and Taiwan aren't China.
You don't really get sarcasm, do you? So we will keep this simple, with sort words for your benefit. I know people from Hong Kong. I know people from Taiwan. And I've been there. For all intents and purposes, I know enough Chinese people to be well informed about what goes on there.
Falun gong proposes that cancer can be cured with exercise. it's a dangerous ideology for a superstitious people.
Christian Science proposes that disease can be cured with prayer. It's a dangerous ideology for a superstitious people. But you don't see us trying to suppress the belief. They might be nuts, but that's their right. President Xi
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And why did that got modded Flaimbait? He is perfectly right.
Re: The DNC is probably owned by China, so... (Score:2)
I broke the cardinal rule on any American dominated forum, "don't try to have a reasonable debate about China"...
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Ha ha - Likely!
No idea why Americans want to suddenly style China as the enemy.
China stayed out of the so called "cold war" for more than 50 years, now some American idiots want to draw them into a new one.
Simple question, who has the better interner and cellular phone? Answer: it is no the US. (Many reasons for that, so some might take it with a grain of salt :P )
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Americans want to make China the enemy for what I think are two main reasons. First it is Asian markets that have gutted most of our manufacturing jobs. Second of all the Asian markets, China is the one with the least political ties to us which holds to the philosophy of communism (which is a double win). Both of these undermine the superiority of America and American ethos.
As for the first one, we did this -- our executives off-shored these jobs. Tangentially I think China understands the pitfall we submit
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Nice summary, thank you.
However that attitude has to change. There is only one planet. And it gets virtually smaller :D every day.
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However that attitude has to change. There is only one planet. And it gets virtually smaller :D every day.
I completely agree. It's why through a series of events, I went from being a tech worker whom originally supported sciences, to living in China doing simple English education. The ultimate goal to explore better lesser known aspects of Chinese culture and to see how they approach this concept of a "one planet", especially as global concerns for climate increase. China's position on this matter will be key and it will be interesting to see how they grow their economy while being a more green economy.
Hopefull
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Good luck!
My goal is Thailand (very different to China).
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Why can conservatives not understand the difference between the government and a private company? They claim to be all about the free market and little government, but when it actually happens they get upset and confused.
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Why can conservatives not understand the difference between the government and a private company?
Why can't the liberals? Look at all the mandates for social programs and requests for data that they impose upon private companies. My company will contract with which ever sole proprietors it wants to provide transportation services. It will buy power from the cheapest producer that can generate from whatever fuel source is legal in their jurisdiction. It will allow employees the possession and carrying of any legal device that has no material effect on our bottom line while they are on our premises. It wo
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It will buy power from the cheapest producer that can generate from whatever fuel source is legal in their jurisdiction.
Sure asshole. Thanx for the information. I will never make business with you. Probably not even tollerate you at my table for a "friendly" dinner.
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I will never make business with you.
Enjoy your Greyhound bus trip across the country to make that business meeting. Because you're not going to fly.
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Not in a Boing 737 MAX :P
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While I understand the initial reasons for anon posting, times are different, /. needs to stop anon posting.
Have we really descended to the level of the PRC? Where everyone has to protect their social credit score in fear of retribution at the hands of the collective? I thought we still had until Jan 20.
Anonymous posting has been more trouble than it has been worth as long as I've been aware, which has been for most of the time that Slashdot has been called Slashdot. Its primary use is trolling. There have been some quality AC comments here and there, but it's hard to imagine that they would not have been left if AC posting didn't exist, since throwaway email addresses have been so easy to get for most of this site's operational history. It's true they're a bit harder to come by now (ones which aren't asso
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Rs are the ones who have been shouting for "accountability", not Ds.
Just wait until your company gets dragged into a House hearing and you get grilled by AOC over why you won't toe the line to their version of truth.
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And by which law could that be even remotely possible? Troll?
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The CIA has picked their side (Score:1)
and it's not with the We the People. They've done this election meddling in many other countries and our own now. You only have to understand the plan of the World Economic Forum & how it will shoe-horn the pathway for Agenda 21, 30 & 50. Lockstep is what they've chosen for us. Just read the Rockefeller plans https://principia-scientific.c... [principia-scientific.com]
Big tech, Big Pharma, Big Retail have been chosen to crush citizens and turn them into peasants who own nothing, rent everything and wil be 'happy'. Same thing
Very, very (25 year) old fishpaper (Score:4, Informative)
Re: Very, very (25 year) old fishpaper (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Very, very (25 year) old fishpaper (Score:4, Informative)
Even reading the headline would prevent this reading comprehension failure.
The news is not about crypto which as both you and the article say was widely known.
This news is about omnisec, a smaller competitor to crypto.
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Cryptome has long been derided as cooky conspiracy theorists by the mainstream media and many on this site. The fact that the alternative media has been more and more proven to be right about everything from Facebook and Twitter, censorship, the NSA and CIA spying even domestically is scaring the pants off the establishment since a lot of people are now getting their primary news there.
There is a growing rift between those that believe the mainstream media and the supposed fact-checkers (which recently got
Straightforward answer: (Score:4, Interesting)
"How can such a thing happen in a country that claims to be neutral like Switzerland?"
Money. That is why it happened. There was money in it, and they happily took the money and looked the other way.
Neutrality is not necessarily noble or virtuous: It may just mean that the neutral party wants to avoid the conflict. Does anyone believe that Sweden and Switzerland would have remained "neutral" if Hitler had won the war? They were very lucky to sit back and sell weapons and financial services to the warring countries in WWII and come out of the war rich and free. Any claim of "virtue" for being "neutral" hypocritically ignores the sacrifice of thousands of lives of the Allied forces and mountains of treasure that was expended defeating the fascists.
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Money.
Doubtless the trade in these companies funded the families of some of Switzerland's leading lights today. No curiosity for this will emerge however. That part isn't interesting. Only howling about the CIA and the US is interesting, and perhaps getting a series of recurring apologies out of Biden et al.
Give the money back if it's all so hideously wrong. Put your money where you claim your virtue is.
One guess whether that's going to happen.
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I was just pointing out that the US was neutral until Pearl Harbor.
Then you are mistaken.
The US are the main reason behind the Pacific war. They forced UNO (had a different name then) to block Japan from all petrol trade. Hence Japan invaded China/Manchuria and expanded from there. (Simplifying).
The whole World War II, may it be Europe or the far east: was orchestrated by the USA. The first weapons Hittler had available, and especially Trucks: all from USA. Also the Hollerith machines from IBM used as "mec
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Given the police state the CIA has turned the world into, would it really have been that bad if the Axis had won?
It would have been bad immediately for Jews. Worse than it was already, I mean. And then over time it would have been bad for everyone who wasn't white, and then anyone who wasn't German, and then eventually anyone who wasn't a blond German with blue eyes who could prove their descendance from someone with two umlauts in their name.
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The Jews got hunted because:
a) they were an easy pray
b) many of them had valuables to confiscate
There never was a "only blue eyed and blond" idea.
90% of the Germans, or nordic, are neither blue eyed or blond and certainly not both.
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There never was a "only blue eyed and blond" idea.
No, but that's where "let's blame all of our problems on some external group and hunt them to the ends of the earth" leads. They didn't get that far, because their leaders were a bunch of wackos.
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They didn't get that far, because their leaders were a bunch of wackos.
True, unfortunately many "leaders" are like that.
If be laughing if it turns out ... (Score:2)
... they're also running Threema, my favorite independent crypto messenger. LOL!
Espionage (Score:2)
So this is basically espionage for foreign countries. Shouldn't the employees of the Crypto company and members of the Swiss intelligence service be trialed for espionage?
Technically (Score:2)
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That is "Crypto AG" (Score:2)
If you just write "Crypto", nobody will understand you. Also, this has been pretty much known back when I studied cryptography about 30 years ago, although nobody had hard proof back then.