Why Amazon's Echo Shines an Ominous Red Light When Its Microphone is Muted (fastcompany.com) 94
This year Amazon followed up its cylindrical Echo (and its hockey puck-shaped Echo Dot) with a cloth-wrapped sphere-shaped Echo device. And Fast Company reports that one significant change was to the light pipe, "that glowing ring on top of the Echo that signals it's talking or thinking.
"For the fourth generation, that light pipe has been moved to the bottom of the device, to reflect off tables or countertops, and provide a more ambient lighting experience that blends into one's environment — with a catch." Once you hit the privacy button on your Echo, deafening it from hearing your speech, the ring glows a DEFCON 2 red until you unmute it. (Note: Google uses an orange to convey mute for its Assistant, as does Sony's new PS5 controller that has a mic built in.) It's not just overt; it's borderline warlike, adding a Red October glow to your space. Echos have always glowed red when muted. Now your environment does, too.
When I mention this design decision, which seems to punish consumers who prefer privacy, Miriam Daniel, vice president of Echo and Alexa devices at Amazon, acknowledges, but brushes off, the criticism. "[Red] makes for a strong [statement]. There's always a tradeoff. Is it too bright? Annoying? Too in your face?" she muses. But she argues that the greater benefit is that "it gives people a sense of comfort knowing the mic isn't working."
The article notes that in 2019, Amazon announced it had already sold 100 million Alexa-powered devices.
"For the fourth generation, that light pipe has been moved to the bottom of the device, to reflect off tables or countertops, and provide a more ambient lighting experience that blends into one's environment — with a catch." Once you hit the privacy button on your Echo, deafening it from hearing your speech, the ring glows a DEFCON 2 red until you unmute it. (Note: Google uses an orange to convey mute for its Assistant, as does Sony's new PS5 controller that has a mic built in.) It's not just overt; it's borderline warlike, adding a Red October glow to your space. Echos have always glowed red when muted. Now your environment does, too.
When I mention this design decision, which seems to punish consumers who prefer privacy, Miriam Daniel, vice president of Echo and Alexa devices at Amazon, acknowledges, but brushes off, the criticism. "[Red] makes for a strong [statement]. There's always a tradeoff. Is it too bright? Annoying? Too in your face?" she muses. But she argues that the greater benefit is that "it gives people a sense of comfort knowing the mic isn't working."
The article notes that in 2019, Amazon announced it had already sold 100 million Alexa-powered devices.
It's an LED, retards (Score:1)
Re:It's an LED, retards (Score:5, Insightful)
Are there really people stupid enough to buy a 'smart microphone" so that they can then disable it to "enhance their privacy"?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just NOT BUY IT?
If you want to temporarily disable it while you discuss your recent plutonium purchase, an obvious solution is to unplug it.
Re:It's an LED, retards (Score:5, Interesting)
Also the facts that the mute button doesn't electrically disconnect the microphone. Alexa is still listening, it just won't respond to your commands unless you unmute it.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to just NOT BUY IT?
So, you install a toilet IN YOUR HOUSE, and then you spray deodorizer because you can smell it when people take a shit.
Wouldn’t it make more sense just to LEAVE THE TOILET IN THE OUTHOUSE?
Some people prefer to use Alexa sometimes, and have it off sometimes. Not to state the obvious, but these are the customers the article is talking about.
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It's easier to just go crap on the neighbour's lawn and blame it on my dog*.
* I don't have a dog.
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> Some people prefer to use Alexa sometimes, and have it off sometimes.
But is it really off, or is it merely choosing not to respond?
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I got an Ecobee 4 that has it built in. I couldn't figure out how to disable Alexa (this was when the Ecobee 4 had just come out), and if you muted the microphone it had a giant red light on constantly. I eventually setup pfblocker to download Amazon's list of AWS IPs and blocked them all from the Ecobee. Worked to disable Alexa. Eventually they added the ability to disable it to the Ecobee app and I was able to remove it.
Re: It's an LED, retards (Score:2)
They stuck it in the latest version of the fireTV cube. No longer is alexa activated by a mic button on the remote. So, not wanting to swap streaming platforms, I just went in and cut the mic out. After reading Vault7, I dont trust a software driven LED to tell the truth. I have no desire to bug my own home.
Maybe one day when every home has their own independent AI, I might change my mind. Until then I dont intend to share an AI that has questionable loyalties.
Re:It's an LED, retards (Score:5, Interesting)
According to Amazon (and teardowns of earlier versions), it's a separate hardware interruption of the circuit to the microphones and activates a circuit to the red LEDs; So it's entirely possible it's not "controlled by software".
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According to Amazon (and teardowns of earlier versions), it's a separate hardware interruption of the circuit to the microphones and activates a circuit to the red LEDs; So it's entirely possible it's not "controlled by software".
But until YOU tear down YOUR device, how can you know for sure?
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You could also mute it, attach it to a network, and look for activity. If you're paranoid enough, how do you know someone didn't rewire it after you tore it down.
Re: It's an LED, retards (Score:2)
That won't tell you anything either. It could still be storing data for later report.
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It's probably easy to find a lack of onboard writable memory capable of holding enough audio data to justify that method.
Re: It's an LED, retards (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, it's an led indicating the unit you purchased to monitor your conversations is not working as intended, it is OFFLINE. Short of getting up and walking out of the room, what should this device do? The bold red glow answers the two most important questions:
The owner asking "Is my Echo turned on?"
And a visitor/guest asking "Is yourEcho turned on?"
Bright red is 100% appropriate.
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Of all the legitimate criticisms you can lay on these guys, "they're punishing users with red LEDs" is probably the dumbest.
Besides, if you buy one of these you like punishment anyway.
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How about the blind/color blind?
They should have added a message repeating every 10 seconds saying, in a warm, reassuring voice, something like 'Your microphone is now disconnected. For the best consumer experience you should turn it on no. Shall I do it for you? If you do not act on this message the microphone will turn on in five seconds'
Re: It's an LED, retards (Score:2)
If the mic is disabled how does a blind person respond to the question?
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D'oh! Is it?
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re:Imminent: (Score:5, Insightful)
It should be red when spying on you.
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Yeah [wikimedia.org]
Re: Imminent: (Score:2)
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Hack that turns on red LED while Alexa is still evidently listening and responding.
Why a hack? That is obviously how the firmware works. Except that the responses get suppressed.
Re: Imminent: (Score:2)
Already out there. Read the vault7 report and those samsung smart tvs. I highly doubt they stopped at samsung tvs.
Obvious (Score:4)
I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
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My god, it's full of stars...
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Bringing it down to Earth, maybe Dave should say "it's full of spies" instead...
Are they really related? (Score:3)
The article makes an assumption the state of the microphone and the state of the LED are dependent. I wonder how true that is. Can the device be commanded to activate the microphone while leaving the red glow?
Re:Are they really related? (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's Amazon's own device. Either they designed it so that the red LED is tied to the microphone being enable/disabled, or the red LED is independent of the state of the microphone, or their hardware was not built according to their specifications.
There's no "figuring out how to do this" involved on Amazon's side. Either they know they can, or they know they can't.
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Can the device be commanded to activate the microphone while leaving the red glow?
Of course it can. Just like all of those laptops with the little LEDs that are supposed to tell you when the camera is active but aren’t directly tied to power to the camera.
It doesn’t take Amazon being malicious, it’s just that doing this physically in hardware is more expensive than doing it in software, which comes with the inherent caveat that it can be faked and shouldn’t be trusted.
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If you do it via software, you need an output pin on your processor/microcontroller/whatever, you need one cable or one more trace to that LED on your PCB and you need to make sure your OS/hardware libraries always enable/disable the LED accordingly.
If you put the LED on the power lines of the camera/microphone, it just works. Why would that be more expensive than doing it via software with all the added requirements I listed above?
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Wiring one LED to a microcontroller that controls the camera, writing a firmware that instructs the microcontroller to turn on the LED and test it, is a substantial cost. And each firmware revision must test the switching of the LED, adding one test case, therefore increasing maintenance by a small, but nonzero amount.
Wiring one LED in series with the camera is a cost of zero. It cannot be cheaper than that, unless it would leave out the LED altogether. No matter how many firmware and hardware revisions com
Re:Are they really related? (Score:4, Informative)
The mute button is not remotely overrideable. It is (or at least was on earlier versions, no information on this variant) a button that depowers to the actual microphone amp. Therefore it interrupts the data from the mike to the software. Other reports are that this red LED is connected to the same board via hardware, but that's less clear. The other lights don't make use of the red channel at all, so it's possible that the red ring is done via hardware. The onbutton indicator itself should be impossible to fake.
what do we get? (Score:2)
There's always a tradeoff. Is it too bright? [Yes] Annoying? [Yes] Too in your face? [Yes] So what's the trade-off? We must get something pretty good in return.
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It's called Stockholm Syndrome. After you've been a captive long enough, you start worshiping your captors.
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Also called: being a longtime Apple customer. Especially true for Apple customers who used the truly terrible software before OSX.
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It's called Stockholm Syndrome. After you've been a captive long enough, you start worshiping your captors.
That seems to be what is collectively going on, yes.
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Well, they feed me and I don't even have to pay a rent.
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I mean, all indicator lights face a tradeoff between annoyance/brightness and being noticed. If the mute state is rare enough (obviously Amazon's goal), the indicator should be noticeable. Otherwise, a lot of frustrated customers will be unable to make their Alexa's work.
It's recording you, learning. (Score:2)
Watching your every move, it is studying you. Predicting everything you will do or say 10 to 15 seconds in advance with 100% accuracy.
Re:It's recording you, learning. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:It's recording you, learning. (Score:5, Funny)
My wife asked why I always carry a gun around the house. I said "because of the mother-loving spybots". She laughed. I laughed. The toaster laughed. I shot the toaster. It was a good time.
Re: It's recording you, learning. (Score:2)
Do you remember an article about 10yrs ago when xbox motion control was getting big? They figured out how to -see- you using just the wi-fi running through your home.
I wonder just how much awareness of the inside of your home can now be generated between that wi-fi trick and some level of sonar they can do with speakers and mics that are well outside our range of hearing.
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That's why you should always open up your hardware and install a low-pass filter on the speakers.
Simple Solution to Red LED - Don't get an Echo (Score:4, Informative)
I don't want Amazon (or any other big tech) ever having the ability to listen in.
Personally, if I want something from Amazon, I don't feel like clicking a few buttons (whether it's on the remote for Prime/DVD/Stereo/Radio or on a keypad) to be all that onerous compared to what Amazon (and others) maybe privy to.
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I don't want Amazon (or any other big tech) ever having the ability to listen in.
I agree. The only microphone and camera that could conceivably be active in this room are the ones on my phone. The camera is physically covered when I'm not using the phone and if I could actually buy a decent phone that included hardware kill switches for the sensors, I would.
I have a great sense of privacy (Score:3)
knowing there are no "smart" network-connected gadgets in my home.
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You leave your phone outside?
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No, I have my phone powered off.
Re: I have a great sense of privacy (Score:2)
If you don't remove the battery, no you don't.
Re: I have a great sense of privacy (Score:2)
Faraday cage?
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Is he related to Nicolas Cage?
That privacy button (Score:2)
Is this "privacy button" a switch that physically interrupts the power to the microphone(s)? If not - and I am certain it is not - why would you trust it?
Best option for privacy is to not buy an Echo device. The second-best option, I suppose, would be to have a large heavy metal container, lined with some sort of sound-deadening material, which you can place over the top of the Echo when you don't want it listening.
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The second-best option, I suppose, would be to have a large heavy metal container, lined with some sort of sound-deadening material, which you can place over the top of the Echo when you don't want it listening.
Or unplug it.
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A device you have to unplug every night because its red glow prevents you from falling asleep in darkness is pretty shit.
Then don't put it in your bedroom.
My Alexa is in my kitchen.
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The (hypothetical) rechargeable battery inside could probably keep it running a day or two in stealth mode.
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"Best option for privacy is to not buy an Echo device. "
Just put a sound-proof container on it when you plan your criminal, sexual or deviant activities.
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According to Amazon, interviews with Bezos and teardowns: yes, it is. (All data is from earlier versions, remain alert.) I don't expect it to change in the future, because the researcher who notices their muted Alexa sending data back to Amazon is going to get quite famous - especially after very public statements by Amazon to the contrary.
That said, I don't leave my Alexa plugged in when I'm not using it - mostly b
Red was probably a good choice... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't see a picture but if the point is to reflect off of surfaces but not change the room, red is a good choice.
Red doesn't bounce much and is easier on the eyes, yet draws your attention when you look directly at it. White, blue, purple, green, etc are far more distracting when not looking dead on. Not to mention white and green also blind out the stuff around the light.
Orange is a good pick too.
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Red interferes less with night vision.
I can sleep with red LEDs in my bedroom.
All other LEDs are covered with black electrical tape.
Re: Red was probably a good choice... (Score:2)
Woudnt a sleep mask be easier?
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I personally find it very difficult to sleep with anything restricting my face, and it's so bad for somebody I know that they travel with a box to put over their head.
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Also red means stop?
Why is this even an article here? More interesting would be a teardown snowing if the red could be called in software.
Good choice of color (Score:2)
It's ominous red to tell you it's listening in on everything you say behind your back anyway. At least that bit isn't a lie.
Re: Good choice of color (Score:2)
Do you really trust Alexa not to listen in on your conversations with Siri or Cortana? She strikes me as the jealous type.
Choosy mothers choose privacy! (Score:2, Flamebait)
Consumers who prefer privacy should know better than to have one of these in their houses in the first place.
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"Consumers who prefer privacy should know better than to have one of these in their houses in the first place."
So they also don't own any cellphones then.
Re: Choosy mothers choose privacy! (Score:2)
Well you can put those in a faraday box if you are wanting complete privacy. I saw some zipper bags on amazon. Curious how well they work.
Red light conspiracy.... (Score:4, Insightful)
A lot of devices show a red light when it's "off" or "inactive". This has been the case for decades.
Unsorry, but I don't see a psychological warfare conspiracy here.
Re: Red light conspiracy.... (Score:2)
I want to add that I wish the industry would agree on a standard, no matter how informal, on what color a light should be for a given state of operation. Things can get confusing.
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Get in line, there's a lot of us who also hate that.
Status lights should be the same as traffic lights in most countries:
red = off
green = on
yellow = warning/error (this should be flashing to attract attention since it indicates something that needs user action)
blue = we're going to kick your ass
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Indeed, and plenty of other audio hardware and software products use red for their mute indicators. Cisco VOIP phones, Polycom teleconferencing hardware, even the "muted" crossed-out-microphone icon in Zoom is red.
Maybe the reviewer is new to the smart-devices field, the devices-at-all field, or Earth.
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You mistake or overlook the context. In most audio applications, "muted" is the unsafe state, because you may be talking and others do not hear you. It is exactly the opposite here.
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The light indicates a "muted/unmuted" state, as it should. It also follows an established standard.
It should not be used to indicate a "safe/unsafe" state.
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Wrong. And I am not even going to elaborate. There is no established standard.
Re: Red light conspiracy.... (Score:2)
If i read the article correctly, its that they moved it to the bottom and its causing the whole room to glow like the con on a submarine at general quarters when you turn off the lights. I suppose less intensity or allow adjusting intensity would be appropriate.
Another dumb fastcompany article. (Score:3)
Getting triggered because of the light color emitted by a device, WTF!?
I prefer my LEDs dark, barely visible during the day. I don't want every device with a power/activity indicator to also be a night light.
The article writer doesn't remember when nearly all LEDs were red and everything was just fine.
Re: Another dumb fastcompany article. (Score:2)
Do you remember when they were also the size of a small flashlight bulb? Big, dim, and bulky.
Unplug it when not being used (Score:2)
Better yet: smash the thing to pieces with a hammer and throw the pieces in the e-waste bin.
Even better idea: Don't buy one of the goddamned things in the first place. Also get rid of smartphones.
electrician's tape (Score:2)
...over the LED. Problem solved.
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Then you do not see anymore when it is not muted. The actual fix is to discard this device into the trash were it rightfully belongs.
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Well, yes. Or don't buy it in the first place.
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Even better.
Fascinating (Score:1)
While I applaud the clever manipulation going on here (signalling the "mute" state in a way that most people equate with "Warning! Warning! Warning!"), this is of course utterly evil and shamelessly preys on the weak.
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Those people must be in a constant state of panic when driving. Red lights on other vehicles when braking, red lights on the traffic lights, red flashlight lights on police cars when they're being chased on the highway for not stopping at the previously mentioned red traffic lights, etc.
Wut (Score:2)
I can believe it but for some odd reason, not a single image in TFA shows this monstrosity in ominous red
Am I missing something? They all glowed red. (Score:1)
Every version I owned for years had list up red when muted. Don't they all do this? I must be missing something if this is something new that's being reported on.