Trump Administration Announces Overhaul of H-1B Visa Program (mercurynews.com) 181
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Mercury News: The administration of President Donald Trump on Tuesday moved to impose major new limits on use of the controversial H-1B visa, intended for jobs requiring specialized skills and widely used by Silicon Valley technology firms. The new rules are expected to reduce the pool of skilled labor and raise costs for tech companies and other employers. Critics say that could force companies to move some operations outside the U.S.
The announced changes involve new rules from both Homeland Security and the U.S. Department of Labor. Homeland Security said its rule, effective 60 days after it's published in the federal register, would "combat the use of H-1B workers to serve as a low-cost replacement for otherwise qualified American workers." The Homeland Security rule would fulfill a long-running Trump administration promise to revise the definition of which "specialty occupations" are eligible for the visa, according to a draft copy released late Tuesday. Also revised would be definitions of "worksite," "third-party worksite" and "U.S. employer," as well as clarifying how the government will determine whether an "employer-employee" relationship exists. Placements of H-1B workers at third-party sites -- as staffing companies do -- would last a maximum of a year.
The Labor Department's draft rule suggests visa approvals will require specific degrees for job types. If that change is made, it could lead to qualified applications being rejected, [said Sean Randolph, senior director of the Bay Area Council's Economic Institute.] While there are problems around wages paid to less-skilled H-1B holders, including those hired out to big tech firms by staffing companies, "it would be a mistake to tar and feather the entire system with that because what I've seen about how our tech companies here use the H-1Bs, they're very selective, and they're for important niche positions that otherwise a company would have a hard time filling," Randolph said.
The announced changes involve new rules from both Homeland Security and the U.S. Department of Labor. Homeland Security said its rule, effective 60 days after it's published in the federal register, would "combat the use of H-1B workers to serve as a low-cost replacement for otherwise qualified American workers." The Homeland Security rule would fulfill a long-running Trump administration promise to revise the definition of which "specialty occupations" are eligible for the visa, according to a draft copy released late Tuesday. Also revised would be definitions of "worksite," "third-party worksite" and "U.S. employer," as well as clarifying how the government will determine whether an "employer-employee" relationship exists. Placements of H-1B workers at third-party sites -- as staffing companies do -- would last a maximum of a year.
The Labor Department's draft rule suggests visa approvals will require specific degrees for job types. If that change is made, it could lead to qualified applications being rejected, [said Sean Randolph, senior director of the Bay Area Council's Economic Institute.] While there are problems around wages paid to less-skilled H-1B holders, including those hired out to big tech firms by staffing companies, "it would be a mistake to tar and feather the entire system with that because what I've seen about how our tech companies here use the H-1Bs, they're very selective, and they're for important niche positions that otherwise a company would have a hard time filling," Randolph said.
Important, niche positions (Score:5, Insightful)
"They're for important niche positions that otherwise a company would have a hard time filling".
Would that be the same niche as those for skills that we need, but for which we don't want to have to pay the going rate?
Re:Important, niche positions (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. If those positions are hard to fill from the US labor pool, the company should be willing to pay higher salaries. H1B was never meant to be a cheap way to obtain indentured servants from abroad to supplant American citizens at low-level professional positions. However, that's what this has become, leading to an erosion of technology and science education and employment base in the US, and a race to the bottom in terms of salaries. For example, H1Bs comprise sometimes the majority of PhD laboratory technicians and post-docs in Universities, which has led these positions to be the netherworld of employment - no prospects and just high enough salary to survive. H1B should be a vehicle for a company to obtain a particularly valuable employee regardless of their nationality. Frankly, it should come with a $100k or even $150k/year salary minimum.
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:3)
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after all the fees the "recruiters" get.
No that's thinking too small. The people H1B was intended for don't get the "recruiter" treatment. They get white glove treatment, and are hired directly. If you want to kill this modern day indentured crap then cut out the staffing firms. Require a 6 figure salary, require they be direct hires, not temps, contractors or through third parties.
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't even need the salary. If the person is that important, then the removal of that risk hedging and hiding and hand waving alone will fix those salaries and the overall system.
And on top, put the H1B in the hands of the individual so they can easily move and the system is gold! You get the brightest in the world and they end up in the most effective positions at the best rates.
And YES, especially IT should move overseas if feasible. That's better than this twisting of the labor market we do with H1Bs.
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I don't have any mod points. If I had, this:
And on top, put the H1B in the hands of the individual so they can easily move and the system is gold!
would get modded up. Because H1-B holders are indentured to a single company, they cannot receive offers for their services from other companies. They can either accept low-end wages or go back home.
Re: Boot them all out, and Keep America Great! (Score:2)
One problem, everybody is racist to their core.
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Cut out staffing firms hiring H1Bs anyway. I'd say put the salary at top 1% so the number scales up with inflation. The reason they are mass importing this labor is to keep non-valley tech capped at around the $150k it was 5 years ago and not an engineer level $250k+ salary.
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Both the company and employee see value (Score:2)
> Well, the OP didn't say it should cost the company $150k. He said the employee should get $150k. If the company wants to kickback some money to recruiters, who effectively add no value, they shouldn't penalize the workers for it.
I work with a recruiter in the information security industry and highly recommend him to others in my industry. Why? Because he has gotten me two great jobs. The last job was a *perfect* fit, exactly what I wanted, my dream job that I didn't even know existed.
The bosses at th
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Recruiters exist because it is costly to hire and fire someone. People shitting on recruiters have no idea what they are demanding. In their ideal world only mega corps exist who have a quota of people to fire every year.
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, but what's to stop companies from moving some operations overseas and then hiring from the pool in, say, India? There are ways around this restriction that allow them to continue saving money by hiring cheap non-American labor. I don't see how these restrictions will solve the issue. I'm not sure anyone in the White House thought this through. It sounds good as a campaign talking point though, I guess.
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> but what's to stop companies from moving some operations overseas and then hiring from the pool in, say, India?
That's
precisely what they should do. IBM is in the process of becoming an Indian company and if people like their product then it should be even more affordable because the Indian programmers won't have to pay Bay Area rents.
Then customers can honestly assess whether they want to buy American or not.
This will ultimately be good for smaller American companies who can't compete on cost
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, for one thing (and this will not be popular), the problem with hiring from India is that then you have to deal with Indians. While generalities are always dangerous, it is nevertheless very true that there is a distinctly "Indian way" of doing software development. Since this is the *only* way taught in Indian schools, most Indian developers are literally completely lost when they need to deviate from it. That way is capable of doing some ordinary things acceptably well, but as someone who's spent his career in a series of positions on the bleeding edge of technology, I can tell you that such rigidly-thinking developers are worse than useless (actually a serious detriment) when trying to do something new and innovative.
As a for-instance, a few years ago, I was hired as a contract CEO to launch a company and build out the first version of a fairly large and scalable SaaS enterprise app. (We went from zero to $15M/month in under three months.) Its data tables were quite appropriately structured by the needs of the application (which in turn, were almost entirely driven by the human users' workflow needs). As part of the handoff, the owner of the company brought in a dozen-strong (plus managers, of course) Indian outsourcing team to take over development from our (admittedly very talented) team of only two here in the US.
They immediately insisted on "re-architecting" ("architect" is not a verb) the DB to rearrange all the tables to their liking. (Yes, there were places where the tables were not in third normal form - it's not a law, you know...) Performance fell by nearly 99%, and their other "refactoring" of the code to match "Indian way" software dev practices did even more damage to the app's price/performance. (Like most Indian programmers (they're not good enough to be called developers) I've encountered, they could only think in bad Java even though this was a pure Python/JS environment.)
I didn't stay through the destruction of the great product we had built, but the way they were going, I imagine the final product cost 1000x more to run and operate than the one we did using much more capable US talent. (And yes, what we built was perfectly, actually much more readily, maintainable. It was a marvel of clear, direct code, but did not conform to trendy Indian CS norms, hence their need to re-do everything the only way they understood...)
I've never found Indian outsourcing to save money, effort, or time (although Eastern Europe and Costa Rica have been winners), and getting quality product from India is nearly as difficult as getting quality products out of China...
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"As part of the handoff, the owner of the company brought in a dozen-strong (plus managers, of course) Indian outsourcing team to take over development from our (admittedly very talented) team of only two here in the US."
I've seen this myself in two instances. In the first, my team of three engineers in the US was outsourced to a team of 15 in India. In the other case, a team of 5 in the US was outsourced to an Indian team of 30.
In both cases, I'm sure the much larger teams were costing the companies less t
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:4, Interesting)
I've only worked with two indian developers that were any good. The first took a lot of crap from the other indian guys because he was trying to break out of their box. The second is now working with PwC India, and was totally able to figure stuff out and do new things.
The vast majority, though, were as described above. It's fascinating, culturally speaking.
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Your generalities are just plain wrong.
I have worked with really talented Indians, but guess what? They aren't cheap. Good Indians can make as much money as locals whereever they go so to keep them in India means paying them extremely well. The problems you describe are what happens when people try to save as much money as possible during the outsourcing process. When you skimp on the pay, you get all of the drek that the better paying companies didn't want. At best, you get inexperienced, more likely
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No arguments. The production of 200 pages of procedure and repeated rejection of nut crack requests for years over minute non-functional deviations from said procedure. Objections met with some very formal sounding rationalization delivered with withering disdain. - UK, from the pub.
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:5, Interesting)
It will change once companies discover the uncharted territory called LATIN AMERICA which is also full of talent. And within the same timezone. And culturally much more similar to america.
Honestly I never understood america's obsession with hiring people from really remote places having plenty of them in their own backyard.
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Not sure if Mexico counts under your scenario, but my company has had a lot of work performed by Mexican developers and never had an issue. Maybe the reason they aren't used as often is that they cost 2/3rds as much as a non-Silicon Valley US developer's cost, rather than 1/10?
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Re: Important, niche positions (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, but what's to stop companies from moving some operations overseas and then hiring from the pool in, say, India? There are ways around this restriction that allow them to continue saving money by hiring cheap non-American labor. I don't see how these restrictions will solve the issue. I'm not sure anyone in the White House thought this through. It sounds good as a campaign talking point though, I guess.
There is nothing to stop companies from moving overseas and polluting and hiring child laborers either. Is that a reason to relax labor laws and environmental regulations here?
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Actually there is. For example EU rules mean they can't just outsource pollution or do things like give bribes even in other countries. People have gone to jail for doing it.
Back to employment, often there are reasons why work has to be done in that country, e.g. privacy rules or controls of technology export. For employees though it often comes down to "soft" skills like good communication and teamwork or being in the same timezone.
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There is nothing to stop companies from moving overseas and polluting and hiring child laborers either. Is that a reason to relax labor laws and environmental regulations here?
The examples you give are deceptively similar to this situation, but the differences that make them completely unrelated is the core motivation and the result for each. All have the result of restricting onshore industries and reducing US jobs, but that isn't always a bad thing. Reducing pollution is deemed more important, and our society would rather not exploit our children. In each case we are getting a significant benefit, whether it is clean air and water or children having a childhood.
Limiting immigra
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The problem is that H1B isn't immigration. It's "guest" workers. The immigrant shares the concerns of their native coworkers, the "guest" just has to stick it out long enough to take their relatively large compensation back home to their real life. H1B lends itself to an employer policy of Burn 'em and churn 'em.
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The problem is that H1B isn't immigration. It's "guest" workers. The immigrant shares the concerns of their native coworkers, the "guest" just has to stick it out long enough to take their relatively large compensation back home to their real life
H1B visas are part of the US path to citizenship. It is considered a "dual intent" visa, which allows them to pursue immigration while still holding the visa. Every H1B worker I have ever known well (around a dozen) was trying to get sponsored for their green card and become a citizen.
There is plenty wrong with our immigration system, and H1B visas in particular, but like many of this administration's plans they are just trying to get rid of a troublesome issue without having a better option available first
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I think most large companies have learned by now the problems with offshoring - mainly that you have to rely on overseas management and employees.
The last company I worked with thought they could save lots of $ by sending a data-entry project overseas, but forgot that their U.S. team had experience dealing with real estate data and the contract team didn't, and so ended up with a lot of useless data.
When dealing with a geographically distributed programming team, the US workers don't want to be on a 2AM conference call.
The H1B program has reduced interest in U.S. students to go into computer science/tech fields, because the salaries are artificially reduced. If salaries are higher, there will be more workers.
We're told again and again how wonderful the free market is, but in this case, large tech companies have been convincing the government to break it.
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So nothing at all should be done, right? You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. This is a good first step, and really, we don't know how a lot of companies will respond to this.
I suspect the companies that are willing to offshore already have. That's certainly the case where I work. And let's not forget, there have been more than a few cases where offshored positions were brought back to the US, because the offshore employees weren't living up to expectations.
If you're right, then obviously, something
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Those operations are already moving overseas, just not with those corporations. Overseas competitors are catching up fast and in many of those countries, quality of life is catching up fast as well. Working in China seen as not realistic, well, that was true but working in Hainan in China https://www.google.com/maps/@1... [google.com] far more realistic.
Recruiting is likely to turn a turn in the other direction with regard to China, India and Russia, offering interesting life styles with quality income for the most cre
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In the US the corruption and family/caste based nepotism is somewhat blunted, there it won't be ... I don't think the US has much to fear.
Re: Important, niche positions (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is much bigger than just the impact of pushing wages down for American workers. Indian workers probably exercise chain migration even more extensively than those coming across the southern border do: it's not unusual in my neighborhood here in Austin, for instance, to find that an Indian worker who came here originally on an H1B has now moved their entire family here from India. This common practice is not without costs and permanent impacts on American taxpayers that go well beyond just depression of tech wages...
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Sure, but what's to stop companies from moving some operations overseas and then hiring from the pool in, say, India?
Most development today is done for the purposes of supporting operations. Developing software is a very specialized skill and most developers are not doing it. They are supporting services which bring in the money. It's possible to support these services remotely, but there is a lot of friction. Lawyers don't want their paperwork to be offsite. Doctors don't want patients' data outside of the enforceable jurisdiction. And so on. When it comes to services that people actually pay for, they want a cert
"Public Option" that lets you "buy in" is lockup (Score:2)
"Public Option" that lets you "buy in" is lockup it may be very poor in some places but will cover stuff the ER will not.
80K min pay + COL on W2 (Score:2)
80K min pay + COL on W2
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H1-B is explicitly a "guest" worker system. It' built around bringing people here just long enough to Burn 'em and churn 'em. I'm fine with actual immigration, but H1-B isn't it.
We need to fully replace H1-B with real immigration.
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But one of the reasons for limited number of graduates is the race to the bottom in terms of salaries offered. People who are capable, intelligent, and hard working will tend to gravitate towards the higher paid occupations as a whole. Certainly there are exceptions, and people who prioritize their occupation over their lives, but the pool of available graduates for any occupation is going to expand and enhance when they are compensated well for their work in the future. At least in biomedical research the
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For that matter, the cost to BE a graduate is a driving factor. If you're going to go that far into debt, you're going to need some assurance that you will be able to pay it back with the pay you'll get after graduation.
If you want to requite that your candidates pay their own way for education, you either pay enough to make that worth while or you will only get the dumbest of the "smart" candidates.
Consider, in the "old days", few schools even had a CS program. You hired people into Jr positions (perhaps r
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Increasing the salaries doesn't make new people appear. The unemployment rate in the software industry is 1%-2% and the unemployment rate in the computer industry actually *dropped* during the pandemic [forbes.com] while the overall unemployment rate increased. My employer can't fill the software positions fast enough. They are moving to outsourcing - not to move jobs overseas, but to augment the teams.
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It should be higher, the low six figures range is the favorite target for H1Bs just to keep wages stagnant. It is all about keeping the people they call engineers from making doctor/lawyer/engineer salaries ($250k+) outside the valley.
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"They're for important niche positions that otherwise a company would have a hard time filling".
Would that be the same niche as those for skills that we need, but for which we don't want to have to pay the going rate?
Some article I read years ago equated it to "I've looked everywhere and I just can't find a Ferrari for $10,000".
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but for which we don't want to have to pay the going rate?
This is an interesting argument. I happen to work for one facility where they couldn't get the interest to fill a position locally. So they H1-B'd it, with some expert from Germany.
It's not all about "the going rate". When you arbitrarily put a border up around the workforce the going rate market gets skewed, sometimes in the most bizarre ways. I remember working for one company who employed an air-conditioning technician I knew from school. The guy dropped out in grade 10, I stayed in school, worked hard,
They pay the going rate (Score:2)
The bigger benefit to H1-Bs isn't even the abuse. The economy is so bad you can generally abuse most workers, and if you're not
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It is lot more complex than either statement.
There are a lot of jobs that people can do, but will choose a different one, even if the pay is higher.
I can do Tech Support, I wouldn't do it though, even if I was paid more than my current job. Because payment isn't the only factor in what you do for your work.
We need to keep in mind factors like Career Advancement, Spending 20 years on Tech Support, even if getting paid a lot for it, doesn't really give you too many career paths out, unless you take a steep pa
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Yup, that is the niche. But isn't 'the going rate' that they target. H1B's usually get paid somewhere at least in the ballpark of the going rate if at the lower end of the going rate and they will usually still hire an American (although tribalism and bias towards importing more labor becomes an issue as imported labor advances in the ranks and makes hiring decisions).
The issue is flooding the labor pool to keep the current rate where it is. If you are making the same money this year as a couple years back
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You're twisting the GP's words.
Heck, if you well and truly can't find someone in the US to do a job, then by all means, get a H1-B applicant. But you're going to have to prove you can't find anyone, and prove that the skill set requested is absolutely necessary to the job. If you say you need a Java dev to be able to speak Swahili, you better prove that dev is working with folks in Kenya, and why the Kenyans can't speak English. And then you also absolutely do need to pay said H1-B applicant the going rate
we need to stop this under H1-B (Score:2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
also an open job board with no rejects? so they ca (Score:2)
also an open job board with no rejects? so they can't set the job board to reject MOST US workers.
Re:Important, niche positions (Score:4, Insightful)
To some degree yes. I have nothing against people in India, China or anywhere else wanting to find a better life, but I do I think RIGHTLY expect my own government to adopt policies that good for the majority of my fellow citizens.
Its not about holding foreigners back, its about looking out for our own first. Good people should give alms to the less fortunate, but not when it means taking food from the mouths of their own children. Same applies to governments.
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We are not talking about some foreign military or colonial adventure here.
Nobody is talking about our government trying to take anything from India or China, or deny them access to clean water etc. Even if we were discussing further diverting the Rio Grande for US consumption and Mexico's expense or something you might have point.
The fact that Sandra, might presently enjoy access to certain things that Sampath does not; does not mean justice is automatically served by taking for Sandra to give to Sampath.
also OT pay so the going rate for 80+ hour work is (Score:2)
also OT pay so the going rate for 80+ hour work is = to an US person pay not we can't find an US person willing to work 80+ hours for 40K
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because who cares about Indians and Chinese people wanting to find a better life in a foreign country. right?
I have not found the altruism or charity angle to be a good argument for those who are worried about other groups taking their jobs or suppressing their wages. But it isn't necessary to use those arguments since there are plenty of reasons to encourage immigration which help the host country.
For one, wages and jobs in the US may be depressed more if companies are forced to offshore work instead of bringing cheaper workers onshore. Or point out those immigrants and their children start new companies at great
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People who have to return back to their own countries after a predetermined time do not open new businesses here.
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H-1Bs are not immigrants. They are foreign workers brought into the country to fill a supposed "shortage" in the labor pool. In reality they are used primarily to drive down salaries of domestic workers. People who have to return back to their own countries after a predetermined time do not open new businesses here.
I have worked with dozens of H-1B coworkers and have worked closely enough with at least a dozen of them to talk about their specific immigration situation. Every single one was hoping to get a green card and become a citizen. The only reason most of these workers aren't becoming citizens quicker is because of our laws, not because they don't desire to become permanent residents.
Would've been nice if this happened 4 years ago (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm sure it's just a coincidence that there's an election in 30 days and that these rules won't be quietly undone if he wins. Trump has a long history of "Buy America, Hire American" at his resorts and golf courses, right?
They did clamp down on the program 4 years ago. There are lots of articles on how it would destroy the tech industry and was anti-Indian and such.
Dude I read /. daily (Score:4, Insightful)
Again, Wake me when he undoes the Obama executive order allowing spouses of H1-Bs to work and when he mandates government entities buy American. Both of these he can do with a stroke of a pen, both came up on the campaign trail in 2016 so I know he is (or was) aware of them and neither of them have been done.
Hell Bernie Sanders campaigned on the "buy America" one during the Democratic primary.
AGAIN? he did; this is election BS (Score:3)
He didn't fix it last time... This is mostly repeating the SAME stuff that worked before and expecting people to be as stupid as he is.
Note: He slowed H1 heavily (not H2 he exploits,) early on. We had like 6% wage increases I think it was... only good thing he did...(although one could argue normal market forces did most of that.) Then a year or 2 later one of his corrupt friends revamped and automated the process making it easier to scale up and abuse it so it's a bigger potential threat now. So we can b
Re:Would've been nice if this happened 4 years ago (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that there's an election in 30 days and that these rules won't be quietly undone if he wins. Trump has a long history of "Buy America, Hire American" at his resorts and golf courses, right?
I wonder when he'll clamp down on H2B's or at least not employ them in his company and pay a living wage to US workers? I'm sure he'd just say he's smart not to do that.
Be sure to get out and vote...
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I can't imagine this was his decision. The man is on several unapproved medications, antivirals, uppers, downers, steroids and was last seen panting on a balcony like a dog in a hot car. It's not even really clear which white house staffers are still able to stand without holding onto a railing. Just saying, who's pushing these fucking buttons at this point?
Changes like this are usually a while in coming.
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I can't imagine this was his decision. The man is on several unapproved medications, antivirals, uppers, downers, steroids and was last seen panting on a balcony like a dog in a hot car. It's not even really clear which white house staffers are still able to stand without holding onto a railing. Just saying, who's pushing these fucking buttons at this point?
Changes like this are usually a while in coming.
Tends to happen when you have to drag Change through a Swamp.
Re:Would've been nice if this happened 4 years ago (Score:4, Insightful)
Trump has been trying to fix the H1B program for years, but your friends have been blocking any reform. The Red and Blue Gangs live on Big Tech money. You have been hoodwinked in thinking that Greed is partisan, or that either political gang still Represents any working American.
-- www.fuckyou.com/politics
FTFY, since you haven't been paying attention. Your country works for Big Tech now. Wake up.
I keep hearing this (Score:3)
Step in the right direction, years overdue (Score:5, Informative)
I've seen both side of this situation. I've been the person going into another country for a while as an expert where there truly was a shortage of available expertise in a given field. I did this work for about half a year while I trained up some people and then I went back home. That was the kind of the thing that the H1B was meant to be.
It was never intended to be a program to allow employers to suppress wages of entire industry. Unfortunately that is what it exactly the tool it has become used for. I've worked in the industry long enough to see entire departments staffed entirely by H1B's. There are buildings where speaking English is enough to draw attention. More companies that I care to think about have used the H1B to replace as many Americans as possible with cheap labor.
Unfortunately there has been very little enforcement of H1B visa fraud or the employers that abuse them. What's really needed is enforcement against the employers that have abused the program for decades.
Let's forget those that come here on these programs. It is well known that they are often mistreated by their employers and can be called on to work 10 or 12 hour days. It is not uncommon for them to 60 hour weeks with little to no recourse until they become permanent residents or go back to their home country.
What a lot of people don't consider is that they typically come from either India or China, both of which are inherently corrupt. The result of this is that for many of them they will spend a fair portion of their salary as bribes to individuals who helped them get their jobs. In many places that extends all the way through getting their citizenship.
The remaining money they have often goes back to their home country in the form of remittances. In other words very little of the money paid to an H1B worker stays in the US, rent, food, utilities, transport and taxes are often the limit. The idea that the H1B worker helps the US economy is absurd. Their employer is likely dodging US taxes as well (think Apple, Facebook etc.).
Don't forget that there are other visa programs that also allow in cheaper labor at the expense of the American worker. Protecting American jobs includes protecting the jobs of those who have immigrated here legally. For example, I recall a couple occasions where I've even seen Indian immigrants who came over on H1B visas that worked hard, converted to a permanent resident status and even earned their US citizenship lose their job to fresh new H1B workers.
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I don't agree that guest workers should be temporary. I've been one, still would be if not for brexit, and one of the major attractions was that I could bring my family and settle down. If you really want highly skilled people you have to make it attractive to them, so either telephone number salaries or you have a path to citizenship and a life with their family.
Also if they are settling they won't be sending money home, or at least not as much.
Of course that includes not mistreating them, and they should
Poorly written article (Score:2)
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nor reasons etc
Election.
You don't need a well written article to tell you the sun will rise tomorrow either do you?
No problem for Trump (Score:2)
His businesses use H-2Bs, not H-1Bs.
These policies will simply be used for selective enforcement, to prevent his corporate critics from getting H-1Bs. There will be no improvement, only more abuse. In fact, I'm willing to make a bet, although it's only a dollar because I'm cheap. Any takers?
I think Trump had a positive impact on this. (Score:2)
Re:I think Trump had a positive impact on this. (Score:5, Interesting)
The tech companies want the world -- total border transparency for hiring and moving capital, but keeping elite employees and principal intellectual property and "HQ" in a top Western democracy so they can get the advantages of patent protection and civil courts capable of enforcing legal action in a meaningful way.
Personally I think the tech companies should be brought to heel using this -- paying taxes and not abusing immigrant labor allowances is the price they pay for the ultimate backing of the US government to enforce their patent protections and provide a legal system with meaningful enforcement of its actions.
If they want to not be beholden to this, they're free to see how much better the costs are when dealing with Indian corruption, Chinese political meddling or an inability realistically enforce their rights in civil court.
Let's see how long that keeps (Score:3)
Promises made this close to an election are basically worthless.
A somewhat contrarian perspective (Score:5, Interesting)
So I know that a lot of people on Slashdot are generally against the H1B system, rightfully so given how badly it's been abused.
I did want to share a perspective though that there really was an initial problem the H1B system was trying to solve, a shortage of qualified candidates for some roles (which are well paid and compensated).
We have a couple of H1Bs. They were hired in direct competition against all comers, and were truly the best candidates for us (not just due to technical background, but previous experiences, "social fit" etc). They are by far not the cheapest paid, and fall in the middle to high end of our distribution. The preference actually was to hire domestic candidates if we could find them. This is what I think the original purpose of the H1B program was.
The current bureaucratic process is a kafkaesque nightmare. DHS folks are really not qualified to judge jobs and backgrounds. As an example: Why is a PhD in stats or physics working as a "Machine Learning Scientist." That is not an appropriate degree for the role. Really?
The H1B process has been wholly abused. But there was a legitimate and enduring need that it had tried to solve.
The two quickest and easiest ways I've heard to solve this (which are not part of the current proposed "solutions") are:
1) Run the H1B process as an auction not a lottery. You want a foreigner, pay for them. If their background, experience, etc are something you truly need, your dollars will speak for themselves. Will significantly mitigate the cheap body shop problem.
2) Allow more mobility so that H1B workers are not so explicitly tied to an employer which lends itself to abuse.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
So I know that a lot of people on Slashdot are generally against the H1B system, rightfully so given how badly it's been abused.
I did want to share a perspective though that there really was an initial problem the H1B system was trying to solve, a shortage of qualified candidates for some roles (which are well paid and compensated).
We have a couple of H1Bs. They were hired in direct competition against all comers, and were truly the best candidates for us (not just due to technical background, but previous experiences, "social fit" etc). They are by far not the cheapest paid, and fall in the middle to high end of our distribution. The preference actually was to hire domestic candidates if we could find them. This is what I think the original purpose of the H1B program was.
The current bureaucratic process is a kafkaesque nightmare. DHS folks are really not qualified to judge jobs and backgrounds. As an example: Why is a PhD in stats or physics working as a "Machine Learning Scientist." That is not an appropriate degree for the role. Really?
The H1B process has been wholly abused. But there was a legitimate and enduring need that it had tried to solve.
The two quickest and easiest ways I've heard to solve this (which are not part of the current proposed "solutions") are:
1) Run the H1B process as an auction not a lottery. You want a foreigner, pay for them. If their background, experience, etc are something you truly need, your dollars will speak for themselves. Will significantly mitigate the cheap body shop problem.
2) Allow more mobility so that H1B workers are not so explicitly tied to an employer which lends itself to abuse.
"Hired in direct competition against all comers"?. You didn't say the locals weren't qualified, just that the H1-B's were better for "reasons". If you couldn't hire the H1-B's you would have taken the best candidate available. If the H1-B's are so special why are they paid "middle to high end of our distribution"? They are rock stars, the cream of the crop, possessing super-skills. They should be the highest paid people around, not by your company standards, but by the standards of the industry they ha
Re: (Score:2)
The two quickest and easiest ways I've heard to solve this (which are not part of the current proposed "solutions") are: 1) Run the H1B process as an auction not a lottery. You want a foreigner, pay for them. If their background, experience, etc are something you truly need, your dollars will speak for themselves. Will significantly mitigate the cheap body shop problem. 2) Allow more mobility so that H1B workers are not so explicitly tied to an employer which lends itself to abuse.
If they could easily change jobs wages would go up and h1B's would be less attractive since there is an initial cost to get the visa. You could also severly limit the number of visas given to a company; especially the consulting bodyshops.
I've worked some very talented H1B's and if the cost gets high enough then the best will be the only viable candidates.
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1) Run the H1B process as an auction not a lottery. You want a foreigner, pay for them. If their background, experience, etc are something you truly need, your dollars will speak for themselves. Will significantly mitigate the cheap body shop problem.
Wait, so that money goes somewhere that is not the employee? That's totally fucked up. It would incentivize lots of H1B (since now there's money for the government) with low pays. H1B have a prevailing wage determination. Which I must say it's quite high at least for certain skils.
IMHO a reasonable solution is
- Employee must work at the H1B petitioner offices (no subcontracting)
- Employer must guarantee at least one year of employment (i.e. you better be sure you want that employee, no sending him hom
Re: (Score:2)
I'm glad somebody mentioned the prevailing wage. If low wages are really an issue, then why hasn't this been raised? Perhaps also tack on to that mandatory relocation expenses for bringing in people from out-of-country, and something held in escrow to ensure they can be repatriated if things don't work out, although I haven't considered much how changing employer would help. There should be some friction and sufficiently high requirements that the system isn't abused, rather than Trump's approach which j
H-1B vs Education and Training. (Score:2)
I've long thought that the H-1B program has been used to bring in cheap labor and avoid investing in education and training of existing employees who have been and would like to continue to be, loyal to a company who takes care of them. I may be old-school and outdated, but I can't be alone in wanting to work for a company that I can be loyal to and know they're loyal to me. Part and parcel to that loyalty is continuing education and training.
When a company doesn't invest in employees with ongoing trainin
Good move for the rest of the world. (Score:2)
This is a good change (Score:4, Insightful)
I've said this before but it bears repeating.
My wife came over in 1993 as an RN on an H1A visa. She worked for a staffing agency who found a job for her first in Houston, then in New Hampshire (where they worked as "techs" in a nursing home), and finally at a nursing home in Nashville. She was still there when I met her in 1998.
The fantasy version of this is that the nursing home couldn't possibly find Americans to fill their many job positions so they just had to get foreign workers with unique skills. The reality version is that Americans weren't stupid enough to work in their shitty nursing home for $13/hour. Had they advertised the jobs at market rates they would have found workers.
The other aspect that some people touch on is that it's not just financial. An H1B worker is an indentured servant. As an American - especially in a field such as healthcare or technology - if I don't like the job or I'm treated badly I can just go apply for another job. The H1B worker doesn't have this option. They can quit their job - sure - but when they quit they have to get on a plane and go back to their country of origin.
You might think the immigration people don't care since we have millions of illegal aliens in the country already, but they tend to be more aggressive with folks like this who are "in the system". My wife's employer forgot to file some paper one time and the government was already threatening to put her on a plane back to the Philippines.
In my wife's case, she had to borrow around $5000 from family members in order to even come to the US. The agency made them pay upfront. At the time, that represented a couple of years of salary for a nurse in the Philippines. It's pretty easy for a young single person to pay that off even making $13/hour in the US. Had she had to return home the debt would have set her back 10 years.
I've looked at it from the employer's side. As an employer, I would have to swear (literally) that it's not possible to find qualified workers in the US so I have no choice but to go overseas. This is such obvious bullshit for most jobs. There's nothing particularly "skilled" about working as an RN in a nursing home. If there was then there's no way my wife with a few years of nursing experience would have qualified. She is very skilled in certain areas now nearly 30 years later - but she wouldn't be interested in working for the rough equivalent of medical-industry minimum wage in a nursing home.
When we got married I encouraged her to job hunt and get a better job. She didn't have to worry about being sent home at that point. Four years later, she still had friends working at the shitty nursing home. Imagine my (lack of) surprise when this happened:
https://www.foxnews.com/story/... [foxnews.com]
"Eight Killed in Fire at Nashville Nursing Home"
Anyway, the H1B system badly needs overhauled. It's been used in the medical and tech industries for years to suppress wages. I'm sure you can find an example of some guy who really had unique qualifications and yada yada yada. Fine. Do you think the same system should be bringing fresh-out-of-college nurses to the US? Do you think if we cut that off maybe wages would rise and more Americans would be interested in becoming nurses? (the answer is "yes" if you're scratching your head)
This also has an impact in the Philippines. At one point, girls were paying for experience as nurses so they could come to the US. You read that correctly. I'm not sure if it's still going on, but it's messed up. You can read about Filipino nurses online, here's a good writeup:
https://news.berkeley.edu/2019... [berkeley.edu]
Even with getting the cheapest staff they could find and treating them like dirt they still understaffed the nursing home. The state would warn them when a "surprise inspection" was coming, so they would staff the home legally for about a month, then drop it back to less-than-legal staffing after the inspectors left.
Really great news for Canada... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
This is great for us in Canada.
I hate to be the cause of "Reductio ad Hitlerum", but back in the 1930, someone said "Hitler is my best friend. He shakes all the trees and I collect all the apples".
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Yup! I just see all of them big tech companies heading to Canada. Yup, gunna happen so fast. Everyone wants to be in Canada.
You have no idea what are you talking about. If you want to have a bunch of foreign nationals taking your jobs in Canada go ahead. I've seen it, worked it, and somehow survived it in. Funny how an entire team of 20 or so people, of the same nationality just show up to do coding. Really? There are not alot of other coders all over the US that are just as qualified, or maybe too
Probably not a good time to do this... (Score:2)
From a state university, reality is different (Score:2, Interesting)
I see all the time on slashdot tales of "the indian h1b working in tech are useless, drag salary down for the rest of us, get abused by employers because they can't move to a different company easily, and are paid $15/h".
I teach at a $local state university. I see a lot of foreign students in our graduate programs. I see a lot of local students in our BS and MS programs. And what I see looks nothing like the reports I see on slashdot.
1) Bad salary.
All the foreign MS students I advise get jobs immediately (o
Seems like (Score:2)
Seems like a very roundabout way to escape Melania and the prenup when ADX Florence is right around the corner for him.
No point arguing any further (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Well, maybe, but since there was nothing in TFA about what is specifically in the new rules nor in any of the /. discussion so far, I'll reserve judgement until I see how the rules work in real life.
Re: (Score:2)
You mean the economy where the richest people in the US got even richer from government bailouts, the income equality only got bigger, and citizens were left to fend for themselves in massive job loss during the Covid crisis?
I'll agree Bush/Obama were bad presidents, but Trump has been the worse in history.
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Not the question.
Did you total tax go up or down? Was your Withholding less your rebate or Withholdint + additional tax paid, more or less before the changes.
Rebates don't indicate anything at all.
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Fine the economy is not the stock market. You don't have to be a "freaking tax expert" to take a prior w2 look at the YTD FED TAX Withheld box and either add or subtract the additional amount owed or refund you got when you finally filed that year. What you are telling me is you are complain about being hurt by TCJA without even understanding if you personally paid more or less taxes under it.
That is just silly. My guess is you paid less. Sure you got back less at the end of year in refund, but that is be
Re: Negative framing (Score:2)
It's actually worse. The Nobel Peace prize winning President Barak Obama who campaigned in 2008 on anti-Iraq war platform somehow managed to greenlight three new wars (Libya, Syria, and Yemen) setting up the middle east on fire and paving the ground for the rise of ISIS in the middle of on-going civil wars in Iraq and Syria. During the Syrian civil war his administration transferred advanced anti-tank weapons to the so-called moderate rebels who were actually genocidal Alqueda affiliates. His administration
Re: (Score:2)
Syria, Libya, and Yemen all had civil wars that did not need and did not receive any "greenlighting" from the US. The only one we had significant involvement in was Syria, and that was basically the US pursuing ISIS from Iraq into Syria. Trump has had more to do with Yemen than Obama, through his
Re:FInally some good news... (Score:4, Insightful)
Or maybe he wanted to make a decent wage, but the company is only willing to pay slave wages, so they found a H1-B applicant willing to work for peanuts?
Re: (Score:3)
I can tell you first hand that H1B's don't perform the work they're hired for and it is ALWAYS up to someone like me to come along and do it all over again the correct way. Maybe that need doesn't arise right away, but at best you're just kicking the can down the road with this program. A little something you and the rest of corporate America need to learn, especially about the Indian an Chinese culture is that they know exactly what they're worth. You've bought into this idea that you're somehow doing thes
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