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Patents Technology

'Project Magnum': Flywheel's Alleged Plot To Steal Peloton's Technology (vice.com) 77

Posted by BeauHD from the potential-partners-to-hated-rivals dept.
em1ly writes: Spin bike maker Flywheel lost a patent lawsuit to rival company Peloton, announcing yesterday that it's shutting down. Motherboard uncovered some wild corporate espionage in the court documents: "At some point before the launch of FLY Anywhere, according to Peloton's lawyers, Flywheel launched 'Project Magnum,' an attempt to 'obtain as MUCH secret intel on Peloton as we can,' according to an improperly redacted document Peloton filed in court. 'Project Magnum was not some extemporaneous side-project [...] but rather a concerted, widespread effort,' one of Peloton's filings adds.

But Project Magnum was, apparently, more haphazard than spy operation. Flywheel created a Google Doc to 'create tabs with the functional areas of info so that the team know[s] to keep adding to it,' one of the documents reads. Much of the conspiracy seems to have taken place over email, judging by discovery that Peloton obtained. Someone at Flywheel named the project after the Magnum PI television series, one of the court documents adds, although the filing does not include the individual's name. The filings do not go into detail on how Flywheel apparently tried to obtain Peloton's secrets, but they do include contours of the project. In a message seemingly written by a former Flywheel CTO who now works at Facebook, he wrote 'Villency could be useful in providing insight related to Project Magnum.' Eric Villency, and his company Villency Design Group, designed the Peloton and SoulCycle stationary bikes..."
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'Project Magnum': Flywheel's Alleged Plot To Steal Peloton's Technology More

'Project Magnum': Flywheel's Alleged Plot To Steal Peloton's Technology

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  • No one cares (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @10:12PM (#59749124) Homepage Journal

    Peloton will be out of business in five years anyway. They are losing money hand over fist along with all the other fake "tech" companies. What difference does it make? The only thing keeping them alive is the low interest rates.

  • What technology? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OverlordQ ( 264228 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @10:12PM (#59749126) Journal

    It's a god damned bike?

    • Yeah, was wondering same thing. There is nothing technically interesting about peloton to steal.
      • Well, they have that screen streaming live video of sweaty people shouting at you to sweat more, but I don't see what you'd need to steal from that.

        Oh, but after checking the court settlement, I guess that's exactly what they were trying to steal. Or at least one feature of it, one that they should have been able to figure out themselves (my italics)- "Peloton's 'at home'/'remote streaming' patented leaderboard technology".

        • Ignoring their underhanded tactics in trying to steal IP, what does peloton's patents entail exactly? A leaderboard? How could they get a patent for this? If would be like the first racing game getting a patent for a leaderboard and now no one else could do it.

    • Exactly, also it's not really corporate espionage if they can just purchase the bike themselves, study it, and study the user interface that comes with the tablet.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It's a god damned bike?

      No, it's a vehicle of corruption. All these corporations are just a means to an end, and the goal is to enrich a few individuals at the expense of many others. If you look at many, if not most, corporations you will see they are engines of exploitation. The greed of the senior people creates an unethical enterprise that will do anything to take money from others. In such a moral morass, sooner or later, anything goes. People think corruption is some abstract, doesn't really affect me, concept. The truth is

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by brunes69 ( 86786 )

      I came to say exactly this.

      Peloton is a bike with an attached tablet that essentially has the equivalent of YouTube live streams on it of some spin classes.

      Is it stilly? Yes. Does it have a niche that makes it a success? Yes.

      Regardless of success I fail to see what technology or "secrets" they could possibly even care to steal.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      'ER' no, believe it or not it is not a bike, it is a super special high performance stationary exercise bike with superb handling and speed for trust babies to keep fit, the kind of product only the spawn of the rich and greedy and pretty but stupid could buy. I'll bet neither of them generate electricity to put that ego to worthwhile exercise. I can understand the cost of high end elliptical trainers but an exercise bike, what ego will pay for.

      • Re:What technology? (Score:5, Funny)

        by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @10:58PM (#59749258) Journal
        It's stationary, there is no 'handling', if you use something like this (and don't have a real bike too) then you're not a 'cyclist', you're a hamster.

        • It's stationary, there is no 'handling', if you use something like this (and don't have a real bike too) then you're not a 'cyclist', you're a hamster.

          I'd bet most people have no desire to be a "cyclist" anyway.
          This is an exercise machine, not a method of transportation for people that like spandex.

          • Re:What technology? (Score:4, Insightful)

            by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Friday February 21, 2020 @01:14AM (#59749530) Journal
            You sound like a hamster.
          • Also it's shitty exercise for the money. Go outside and walk for free.
            • Go outside and ride a real bicycle in the Snow... https://www.strava.com/activit... [strava.com]

              Or heavy rain and freezing cold too... https://www.strava.com/activit... [strava.com]

              There is a reason why most people prefer to stay inside while pretending to ride a bicycle. It is so they don't get any of that yucky outdoors on them.
              • Like I said to someone else here: some people also look for excuses to stay on the couch.
                I know cyclists in, say, Wisconsin have no choice but to use a trainer for their bike in the middle of Winter because no amount of layering will keep you warm, and even a fatbike (big wide balloon tires that look like they should be on a motorcycle) isn't enough to handle some levels of snow and ice. But if you want to buy a dedicated indoor trainer there are better ones than this 'Peloton' and the like. The better one

                • Re: (Score:1)

                  by jjbenz ( 581536 )
                  I used to ride my bike everyday to class when I was in college. One day I crashed and was almost run over by a jeep. I stopped riding my bike in winter after that.
                  • You ride long enough eventually something will happen, that's just part of the game. I literally tell people that if they're going to be Nervous Nellies the whole time they're on a bike and nothing will ever get them comfortable with it that they should just sell their bike and find something else. It's not for everyone.
          • Again... People wear spandex because wearing anything else while riding a bicycle at an average of 20mph for more than 10 minutes would chafe the skin off your inner thighs and backside. Spandex is the only material that moves with you... https://www.strava.com/athlete... [strava.com]

            Put on some burlap underwear and walk around for 30 seconds. You will get the idea.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Entrope ( 68843 )

          That whooshing sound was the joke flying over your head. It's also an exercise bike -- "high performance" is exactly what you don't want, because then you would crash through the picture window their advertisements always show in front of the bikes. Wasn't "super special" a big enough tongue in the cheek to flag it as satire?

          • It's only a joke if it's actually funny, and saying "LOL I was only trolling" afterwards doesn't make it less lame. xD
            Furthermore you'll note the original comment is scored at '1' and mine is scored '5, Funny', so who's the joke on here, really? xD

        • Too many cons:

          Real Bike: Must go outside and risk interacting with stupid people.
          Real Bike: Might get hit by a stupid motorist.
          Real Bike: If I bike a couple miles and get a flat or busted chain I have to fix it on the road or carry the bike home.
          Real Bike: If I bike a couple miles and wipe out or bust my shin I still have to walk home after getting mad and destroying the bike.
          Real Bike: If I get a call and need to be home or somewhere else fast I'm on a bike.
          Real Bike: It's freakn cold or hot outside, snowi

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by jjbenz ( 581536 )
            Biking is a great sport. I wish more people did it. You are correct about stupid motorists, I've seen my share as well as some pretty stupid bicyclists.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      You pay a subscription (!) to log your use of the bike and watch some livestreams of classes. So basically it's a static bike with an iPad glued to it.

      It's not the worst idea in that classes clearly do help motivate a lot of people, but it's the usual Internet of Shit design where none of it works any more because it's all dependent on cloud services that just went bust.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sad_ ( 7868 )

      there is a lot of tech and research that goes into bikes and bike parts.
      just look at the stuff shimano & sram are developing.

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @10:14PM (#59749130)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • BS patents (Score:2, Informative)

    by Dan East ( 318230 )

    And of course its a totally BS patent. Basically streaming video, but while happening to be sitting on an exercise bike.
    https://patents.google.com/pat... [google.com]

    A method for providing cycling classes to remote users comprising providing information about available cycling classes that can be accessed via a digital communication network by a user at a remote location for display at the remote location, receiving from the user a selection of one of the available cycling classes for display at the remote location, and sending digital video and audio content comprising the selected cycling class from a server to a computer associated with a stationary bike at the remote location for display to the user on a display screen associated with the stationary bike. In various exemplary embodiments, the digital and audio content sent to the computer associated with the stationary bike is streamed for display to the user in substantially in real-time. In various exemplary embodiments, the digital and audio content sent to the computer associated with the stationary bike is archived content provided from a database.

    It's beyond my ability to reason how something like that can be considered unique enough to be patented.

    This patent ads the ability to compare your metric against some other metric. Again, I don't see how that could be patented.
    https://patents.google.com/pat... [google.com]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Dude, that's a totally legit patent covering watching YouTube while pedalling a bike.

      I *am* curious why someone thought they needed to steal that "technology".

    • I looked at this Peloton thing. I suppose you could use it for Zwift -- but I have much hate for Zwift as I do anything like this that requires you to pay a monthly subscription fee just to use it in any meaningful way (if you can call being a hamster 'meaningful').
      Ride a real bike outside.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by bblb ( 5508872 )

        Nope, can't even use it for Zwift because it's not actually any kind of smart trainer... all the adjustments are just old school knobs, there's no smart power control.

        • LOL that's even worse. I guess some people will fall for anything.
          You'd have to invest in a heartrate monitor as well just to use it for any meaningful 'exercise' otherwise you have no idea other than RPE what intensity you're working at.
    • Seems to me that if I took a regular stationary bike and bolted a tablet to it so people could play any kind of video, I would be infringing the patent. That can't be right.

      At the same time, how the hell do you steal that? Why would you need to steal that, given that it really is just YouTube strapped to a bike? There's nothing unknown or secret about how that works.

      The settlement doc specifically lists a "patented leaderboard technology", but again, what's to steal about that?

    • It's insane. It would be like a racing videogame getting patents for a leaderboard and competing against others. But since that insanity is here, does that make it a worthy investment as seemingly no one can offer something similar. I also read they are offering yoga as well. Any patents there? Lol.

  • Overpriced stationary bike, with a expensive subscription...marketing to the morons that think this would be cool. I'll bet most don't even use it after 6 months because of the subscription.
    • Cyclist here (training and racing for the last 10 years).
      To be fair: some people are okay with sitting in their house turning pedals. I and many others I know can't fathom that though, stationary-anything is about as demotivating as you can get to us. But I agree with you: idiots will buy this thing, they'll use it for a while, then it'll become just something else to hang clothes on, as it collects dust. Meanwhile they'll forget they let Peloton company have their credit card number, and they'll keep char

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Kinthelt ( 96845 )

        Not everybody lives in a place where it's summer all year long.

        • Neither do I, and I ride outside exclusively, all year 'round. So do many people I know. Guess some people need excuses to stay on the couch.
        • It's a matter of clothing. For example, I rode this morning in 26F and the only thing that was cold was my fingers. How much of that was my gloves vs my Reynaud's syndrome, I dunno. With proper shoe coverings, fleece leggings, wind-proof top, etc., cold weather riding doesn't have to be a big deal.
      • Just to balance the argument a bit, I'll ride outdoors when I can - rode this morning in 26F - but I have a stationary trainer in the basement when the weather just isn't worth the hassle. Mind you, I don't like riding in the basement, but when I know it'll take longer to clean up the bike than to ride it, I'll take staring at the wall for an hour, instead.

    • You are required to buy a 1 year subscription (around $500, I think) at the time you buy the bike. So, you are locked in for a year.

      What makes them unique is that the sessions arenâ(TM)t pre-recorded. And, it Wouk day seem the class instructor sees who is participating as well as metrics on their performance in real time. Thatâ(TM)s why they are able to call out to certain users to motivate them.

      I donâ(TM)t have a Peloton - 3K is bit steep for a bike that doesnâ(TM)t go anywhere. I ha

      • AR wouldn't do that; that's not how augmented reality works. It does an overlay on top of the existing reality, not any replacement. Imagine, say, an engine manual that projects on top of the actual engine, labeling different parts, nuts, valves, etc. Or in a combat zone, outlining movement and showing distances and such. One of the more interesting descriptions can be found in the short story "Great Wall of Mars" [fandom.com]

        • Are CAN WORK in this case. You project information about your ride onto the screen which is showing the user riding a trail, the road, etc.

          The difference is it's NOT VR - an immersive experience would be way cool. In the case of taking a class (or, a virtual ride) being able to see the other riders in realtime and relative positions would be awesome.

          The cost to set something like that up at home would, most likely, be only affordable to those who can afford a Peloton and a NYC skyscraper penthouse anyway.

      • Posting mobile, I see.

  • They want to turn everyone into hamsters (Score:3)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @10:55PM (#59749246) Journal
    'Peloton' isn't an 'exercise bike'. It's a revenue generating machine. You cant' really use the thing without paying a monthly subscription fee for the 'content'. In return you get turned into a hamster on a wheel. You're not 'riding a bike', you're just sitting in your living room turning pedals.

    Don't waste your money on anything like this, everyone. Get a real bike and ride it outside. Much more motivating than staring at a screen and turning pedals like some sort of automaton.
    Live somewhere where the weather makes it impossible to ride in the winter? Get a stationary trainer to put your bike on. Get all the 'indoor' exercise you like when it's below freezing outside, or raining cats and dogs. Then you'll still have a bike when the weather is nice and can ride outside. And you won't have to pay anyone a 'subscription fee' to do any of that.

    • I tried outside once. Wasn't impressed by the resolution.

      • Clean your glasses and try again. Also make an appointment for your optometrist, your prescription probably needs to be updated.

    • Whilst *I* agree with you, I gave up trying to tell 'er indoors what to do. She likes it because there's no excuse for not using it, you get stats on just about everything, so it's easy to keep trying to improve your scores. Some of the content is actually pretty nice - not (to me) as nice as actually riding outside, but nice - and you don't come home covered in mud, soaking wet, swearing about the idiots on the road or having to deal with punctures. If you're not in the mood for cycling, there's yoga and s

    • Or just take a stationary bike and face it towards your TV. Or glue a tablet to the handlebars, search YouTube for "sweaty people yelling", and start pedaling.
    • Hard to ride a bike in snow or in sand.

  • Incoherent (Score:3)

    by jpatters ( 883 ) on Thursday February 20, 2020 @11:07PM (#59749284)

    The summery is incoherent. What espionage? These are patents we are talking about, patents are public, that's the kind of the whole point of patents.

  • Don't buy something that requires some company to be around for your something to work.
    It can be a light switch, video game console, toothbrush, smart doorbell, or... a bike.

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/... [theverge.com]

    E

  • Who the hell are any of them?? (Score:3)

    by BAReFO0t ( 6240524 ) on Friday February 21, 2020 @03:00AM (#59749668)

    And what are they doing on my lawn?

    (Seriously, show of hands, how many here have even heard of this irrelevant nonsense?)

  • This appears to be the worse kind of patent trolling, the Peloton CEO said he âoelightbulb momentâ during a Flywheel class, which as far as I can see it is patenting a leaderboard on the web. That is not novel and and the winning company, Peloton seemed to have nicked the idea the losing company Flywheel.

    Games have had leaderboards for decades and multiplayer arcade games for as long as they've existed, putting that on the web and patenting it is trolling.

  • Unless Peloton gets wise enough to start interfacing with smart trainers and ant+/btle sensors and transforms themselves from a hardware company with a service to a pure service provider that offers a live class/real person alternative to Zwift/TrainerRoad/Rouvy/SufferFest, it's dead in the water. Anyone serious enough about cycling to want what they currently offer already has $5,000-20,000 invested in their own bikes and another $1,000 invested in a smart trainer and is riding on one of those apps or outd

    • Why does everybody keep bringing up "serious cyclists" in this discussion? Peloton's core demographic is upper-middle-class to lower-upper-class women who want a trendy piece of exercise equipment. These are people to whom $2,000 initial/$40 monthly is spare change. They will buy a peloton, use it a few months, and pay the monthly fees for years before they bother to cancel it. It's on Peloton's leadership that they have somehow failed to turn a profit on what should have been easy money.

      • Because the only way they survive is by getting serious cyclists on board.

        • But serious cyclists want to cycle, not use home gym equipment. It's not the same market at all. That's like saying what Nordictrack needs is to appeal to cross-country skiers.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by bblb ( 5508872 )

            Right... cyclists don't want to ride indoors... that's why there's more than 1.1 MILLION cyclists riding Zwift, right?

            You're clearly not a cyclist and clearly don't know what you're talking about. Literally every single cyclist I know owns a trainer for riding indoors. At this moment, my road bike is currently sitting in my living room on my H2 direct drive trainer and has been just about all winter. My only outdoor rides in the last three months have been on my mountain bike.

            The Nordictrack is a great comp

  • This sounds ripe for someone to sell a bike subscription-free (or a ski machine, rower, whatever) and establish a sharing platform whereby "influencers" can host workout events. People can just follow which ever events they like, and still keep track of their session stats, appear in a list of joined-in users etc.

    I'll bet that could spawn some really wierd excercise sessions and provide a captive audience for advertising health products, anti-chafe creams etc.

  • Is slashdot ever going to fix special characters in posts so that we ca read "don't" rather than "dona^(TM)t".

  • Just get a smart trainer for your 11-speed road bike, and a Zwift subscription. Cheaper than a Peloton, and you can take it places.

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