Work-Life Balance: After Cryptographer's Lawsuit, BAE Division Will Retrain HR (std.com) 89
Longtime Slashdot reader mdecerbo writes: Back in 2015, defense giant BAE Systems fired cryptographer Don Davis on his first day of work, after learning he didn't want to work more than 40 hours a week while caring for his dying wife. Davis filed a federal lawsuit, and the Boston Globe suggested that the company should settle it rather than try to defend the "soullessness of the machine."
It's unusual for the public to hear anything about settlements of lawsuits like this; they're usually kept confidential to avoid publicity. So it's remarkable that BAE and Davis have now issued a joint statement that the lawsuit is resolved, with one division of BAE announcing that they will retrain their HR staff about male employees with caregiving responsibilities. Maybe one part of the machine has gotten a little less soulless. Could this become a trend, where tech companies have to actually let employees have some sort of a life?
It's unusual for the public to hear anything about settlements of lawsuits like this; they're usually kept confidential to avoid publicity. So it's remarkable that BAE and Davis have now issued a joint statement that the lawsuit is resolved, with one division of BAE announcing that they will retrain their HR staff about male employees with caregiving responsibilities. Maybe one part of the machine has gotten a little less soulless. Could this become a trend, where tech companies have to actually let employees have some sort of a life?
Could be worse (Score:2, Funny)
My company fires the first person to leave on Friday afternoon as they walk out the door. On Monday morning they fire whoever put in the fewest number of hours the week before.
Get a union! (Score:2, Insightful)
Get a union!
Easier said than done (Score:5, Insightful)
I actually like Michigan for a lot of reasons, but our labor laws are abhorrent. It's not always as easy as "just form a union." At least starting this year we finally have mandatory paid sick time, I guess that's a step in the right direction.
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I don't know where you live, but here in Michigan, we have what's called "at-will employment." That means your employment can be terminated at any time without the company having to give you a reason. While technically, there are probably laws that prevent workplaces from retaliating against union formation, you'd have a difficult time proving that when the company doesn't need to tell you why they let you go. It's a nice little law that makes it difficult to prove discrimination or retaliation in general. For instance, are you a woman? Did you rebuff your boss' sexual advances? Ah, sorry, looks like things just aren't working out, we're going to have to let you go. Oh, no, it had nothing to do with that, what a horrid suggestion! The door's over there, buh-bye.
I actually like Michigan for a lot of reasons, but our labor laws are abhorrent. It's not always as easy as "just form a union." At least starting this year we finally have mandatory paid sick time, I guess that's a step in the right direction.
Yeah that shit always makes me laugh. It's like the construction vehicle carrying stones that has a sign on the back that reads :
"Not Responsible for Broken Windshields"
Or even better the sign at the supermarket that reads :
"Not Responsible for Damage Caused by loose Shopping Carts"
Ummm yeah you fucking are, it's your shopping cart on your property , if it damages my vehicle you sure as shit are responsible.
I put a sign up that reads :
"Not Responsible for Unloading my Weapon Into Your Chest if i Feel Like
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At will doesn't mean you can't see over wrongful termination.
If there was any proof of that sexual advance, and maybe if there isn't, and a woman (probably not a man) is fired soon after, a lawsuit has a good chance of winning.
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Get better employment laws. Why bring a union into this, where you have to pay money and be put into direct conflict with your employer, when this sort of stuff should be solved across the market rather than on an employer by employer basis.
Re:Get a union! (Score:5, Informative)
...Why bring a union into this, where you have to pay money and be put into direct conflict with your employer, ...
Because together you bargain, alone you beg
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I know, landlords should be able to enter their property whenever they want too as well as demand sex as part of the rent.
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Yes, but it's our society so it's our rules. If he doesn't like that he doesn't have to start a company.
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Whoever runs your company is an idiot. Jesus, do you know how much it costs to recruit people? Must be a startup burning through some poor investors' money.
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Recruiting is cheaper if you outsource to a temp agency or similar.
Re: Could be worse (Score:2)
Its really not. Its much cheaper to try and improve existing employees then to cycle in new ones.
Only an idiot would do this.
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My company fires the first person to leave on Friday afternoon as they walk out the door.
So they fire the CEO and managers who leave at lunch to go play a round of golf and don't come back for the rest of the day? Sweet!
Re:Could be worse (Score:4, Interesting)
Man i used to laugh about this too, but it's amazing how many deals are closed on the golf course. I'm talking multi-million dollar handshake and the next monday contracts are being executed.
If you are still young, my advice is to learn how to golf well. If you are old, learn how to be that joker on the golf course to hide your horrible slice.
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Horrible slice? Since when are we supposed to bring knives to the golf course?
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it's amazing how many deals are closed on the golf cours
Some of the most productive hours I've ever put in for The Man were sitting on the pull deck in the eastern carribean, with some kind of drink with a little umbrella in it on my table, facing the ocean.
They won't let me do that a lot though, certainly don't pay me for it. Instead they want me to sit in a little cube in a very loud place, and constantly get interrupted.
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You work for DXC Technology then?
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They hired him for a 9 to 5 then wanted to alter the deal before he even started. So the employer is the one that wanted something for nothing. Talk about a sense of entitlement, his employer apparently didn't even consider the possibility that it might not be feasible for him to offer them free labor.
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do you care about the difference between who's and whose?
really? that was your response?
Trend? No. (Score:5, Insightful)
They fucked up and now will "retrain HR".
From TFL: "The remaining terms of the parties' resolution are confidential." - well, shit.
From TFL: "Applied Intelligence contested Mr. Davis' claims throughout the litigation and has not admitted to any legal violations or other wrongdoing." - well, shit, again.
They are as soulless as they were, and at least as soulless as they will be in the future.
Donating a couple million to a cause, e.g. research for the curing the illness Don Davis' wife suffered from (that's an assumption of mine), or to people who are in the dire situation of caring for a dying family member would have been a sign of improvement. Otherwise, it's just what it always was: company fucks up, someone sues them, they pay that person an undisclosed amount and everything is erased.
Re:Trend? No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Otherwise, it's just what it always was: company fucks up, someone sues them, they pay that person an undisclosed amount and everything is erased.
Which would be just fine if it always happened like that for every victim. They'd soon learn not to be dicks. Sadly, most people either don't sue or lose.
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Rather than say sorry about punishing a made-up thought crime and throwing their volunteers under the bus, Stack Exchange has gone dead silent and appears to prefer a legal fight. ( https://w [gofundme.com]
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> They are as soulless as they were
A company that makes drones that regularly kill children overseas (as well as worse products)? Golly.
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They'll retrain HR to understand that some males have caregiver responsibilities.
They did not say they'll retrain HR to understand that human beings max out at a 24% on, 76% off duty cycle, the later of which includes routine maintenance. You can increase the duty cycle and skimp on maintenance, but it increases the MTBF and decreases output.
Ask not for whom the bell tolls... (Score:5, Insightful)
about male employees with caregiving responsibilities
I don't know whether this is from the company's mouth, but what if I have no "caregiving responsibilities"? What if I'm not taking care of my dying wife, but rather my "dying life"? The clock ticks for everyone. I think we should be working less than 40 hours (if we want), not more.
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Seriously the most offensive part of the summary.
Other men, well, work 'em until they're dead - no worries.
Re:Ask not for whom the bell tolls... (Score:4, Insightful)
with one division of BAE announcing that they will retrain their HR staff about male employees with caregiving responsibilities
Oddly specific really.
Re:Ask not for whom the bell tolls... (Score:4, Insightful)
Possibly they already have a policy about women with care giving responsibilities or simply don't hire women as too often they do care giving and refuse to put in free overtime.
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When I was a kid (early 70's) and needed to be taken home due to a concussion or taken to an appointment, it was my Dad who did it. Perhaps as he was a union worker and my Mom was an office worker.
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This guy - not CEO material.
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Actually, he now has money and time to become a CEO. Much more likely than if he was slowly dying at an open concept desk.
Classic tale of the mule of Tenali Raman (Score:2)
I sued because I felt I was discriminated against for being a caregiver, but I believe that Applied Intelligence wants to further a fair work environment for employees who have caregiving responsibilities. Applied Intelligence's new training program will help build a best-possible work environment for employees who are caregivers in their families, and especially for men who choose non-traditional family roles. I hope this new training will also break down stereotypes. I'm grateful that Applied Intelligence has taken my allegations seriously and has worked with me to resolve the case. The resolution we have agreed to will mean that the employees of Applied Intelligence will receive additional resources on issues of caregiving and family responsibilities. Applied Intelligence worked honorably with me to resolve the case and has shown a demonstrable commitment to making internal changes. I believe Applied Intelligence is committed to protecting its employees who have caregiving and other family responsibilities. I am proud to have played a part in this progress.
This makes it look like, the whole thing, hiring, firing, suing and settling are all well choreographed dance drama to make other employees of the soulless machine think the machine suddenly has a brand new soul installed.
One more reason to move back to Norway... (Score:5, Informative)
I lived in the US almost 30 years ago, as we moved back to Norway I got several offers to work for US companies which would have made me both a millionaire and almost certainly divorced with little contact with my two kids, so I said No, Thank You each time.
Here in Oslo I have a work week of 37.5 hours, me and my wife (also an engineer) have been able to both work all the time, splitting the government-mandated one-year parental leave, and make enough that we've been effectively debt free for many years.
If any Scandinavian HR department even considered a move like BAE's, they would almost certainly figure out at once that it was both politically impossible, and almost certainly illegal, but if they still tried it, they would be sued (and have to pay the full salary for however long the court case would take), and then lose the case.
In many ways, the US is still living in the Dark Ages, which is a big shame since I personally love the country.
Terje
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That helps explain why Norway's tech industry is barely a footnote compared to the Silicon Valley.
Re:One more reason to move back to Norway... (Score:5, Insightful)
So you would accept having no life for the benefit of Silicon Valley?
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And they tend to be filled with blue parrots that are pining for them.
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Yeah, I'm not sure that's something the Norwegians are terribly bothered about, what with the absurd levels of wealth *and* safety net *and* equality that they enjoy. We are talking about a country of 5m people which owns the world's largest sovereign wealth fund, with over $1trn under management.
Re: One more reason to move back to Norway... (Score:2)
They have a population of a little over 5 million. The US is more than 60x bigger. How big do you expect their tech industry to be in comparison? Meanwhile theyâ(TM)re much wealthier than Americans and have a longer life expectancy.
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You are at least partly right, there are less (percentage wise) really driven people in Norway than in the Silicon Valley tech hub, but otoh that is probably true for most of the world. The two companies most of you have heard about are probably Opera and Funcom, but we do have a few more, many of them related to oil exploration. I am the CTO of Open iT, a small international software company that was started 20+ years ago here in Norway, but the founder have moved to Houston to be closer to many of the oil
Re:One more reason to move back to Norway... (Score:4, Informative)
No, it's a European looking down on American employment practices.
Which the US can easily put a stop to, by adopting sensible employment law.
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"In many ways, the US is still living in the Dark Ages, which is a big shame since I personally love the country."
The problem with the Scandinavian systems is that they don't scale to countries the size of the US. Those kinds of saftey systems are doable in a country the size of Norway with 2% of the US' population.
Re: One more reason to move back to Norway... (Score:3)
I hear this argument a lot. Do you have any evidence to back it up? Scaling is generally a solvable problem.
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$(NaturalResources/PricePerUnit) / $NumberOfPeople == $PerCapitaWealth
Do the math
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But similar safety systems are in place in Germany and UK, both with 60-80 million people. So it should be doable in state level if not by federal government.
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Having recently spent some time in Germany I can assure you the people there are not so happy about funding the social infrastructure for folks who arent contributing.
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So have the states run it as independent entitites, with only the basic guidelines, minimums and maximums specified by the federal government. This is already how most services are run now! The only difference is that the standards in the U.S. are way lower. The federal government actually does very little in the day-to-day life of most Americans under the age of 65. Social services that do have federal funding are still mostly administered by the states (the feds just write them a check and give guidelines
FALSE conclusion (Score:1)
Most of Europe is part of a common market (EFTA/EEA) with free travel across borders (Schengen), and most of them share a central bank, making it for most day-to-day practical purposes like the United States, only without a unified military or olympic team, and more languages spoken.
This is more false than true. While true that the ECB exists, it doesn't mean that much in ordinary life. And yes we can TRAVEL without visas but that doesn't mean we have the mobility US citizens have. Canada has no visa with US i think? It's the same thing. Let me reiterate, IT"S NOT LIKE THE US FOR PRACTICAL PURPOSES ! I'm ok with how things are now legally-wise, excepting the western politicians who are retards.
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I don't accept the notion of a "soullessness of... (Score:2)
Re:I don't accept the notion of a "soullessness of (Score:4, Informative)
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To be in the HR department of any company, first you must sacrifice your soul. That is, if you had one to begin with.
Odd law... (Score:2)
Massachusetts has an odd employment law about "False Jobs" making it illegal to layoff in the first few weeks, and also illegal to hire on the same day as an interview. Other laws ban an employer for asking for 7 consecutive days of work, an employee must offer that first.
So, really Forced Overtime in the first week is offensive, and a nice big unemployment claim comes with it.
Been through this. (Score:5, Insightful)
When my wife was diagnosed with a fatal brain tumor (GBM [wikipedia.org]) in November 2005 I told my manager that I'd like to shift to reduced hours and possibly work from home. He seemed a little hesitant, so I said the alternative was that I had more than enough savings to take 12 weeks of unpaid family medical leave, but if I did, they wouldn't hear from me - at all - for 12 weeks. They gave me a laptop w/VPN software and was told to work when I could. I even came into the office a few times. My wife Sue died, literally in my arms, 7 weeks later in January 2006.
Remember Sue... [tumblr.com]
A few years earlier, a co-worker wasn't as fortunate. His wife was terminally ill at home, but he couldn't afford to take off and they wouldn't let him work from home -- an hour away. He would call his wife a few times a day to check up on her. One day she didn't answer the phone and he rushed home to find her dead. He retired a few months later and went to work part-time for a sub-contractor.
Re:Been through this. (Score:4, Interesting)
I was fortunate. I didn't have to make a threat like yours.
When my wife -- coincidentally, also named Sue -- was suffering from ALS, my employer encouraged me to take the time I needed, allowed me to work from home, and was generally supportive in every possible way. RIP, beautiful... 9 March 2013.
I was shocked to find a company that realized that loyalty was a two-way street.
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Thank you for posting the link. She was an amazing lady. I can't imagine your pain.
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May her memory be a blessing for you
Nope, still just as souless (Score:5, Insightful)
As always, they're just upset they got caught.
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And yet it still took nearly three years even to get to a settlement.
More than 40 housr a week (Score:2)
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All employers are happy to over-work their existing employees to increase profits.
chances are (Score:1)
Male employees (Score:2)
Would this include having to look after the sex slaves locked in the cellar? Asking for a friend.
Sorta went through this (Score:2)
Not quite the same as being told on day 1 you aren't working 40 hour weeks, but I
No free overtime (Score:3)
First off, I'm salaried. I don't object to working overtime when the need arises. That should be the exception, not the rule. If getting my job done is requiring every day extra hours then either I'm incompetent and should be fired, or my employer needs to hire more people or to reduce expectations.
Had some new guy come in as the team lead. Before he even had time to figure out what was going on, he made some comment about an ongoing problem that had not been resolved (he only knew because I mentioned it). I explained that I had been working a three man job all on my own and had not had time to deal with it. He said, "I would have had stayed late every night for weeks to get it done." I said, "good for you, but I'm not an idiot". Needless to say, we did not get along. He was "asked to leave". I'm still here.
Before anyone jumps on me, the "on going problem" was not a simple fix and messing it up had the potential to completely bork the production servers.
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I have trouble understanding this salary system. Here the work week is 37.5 hours, I can work more but those extra hours go to my time bank. Once there is 75 hours in balance, they company has to pay overtime if they want me to work extra. And I can spend the hours any time to shorten my days, or take whole days off if asked in advance. Also the time balance can be negative, maximum -75 hours.
In my previous job, the system was the same, but maximum allowed balance was +-150 hours.
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My employer is very flexible when it comes to hours. If I put in a lot of extra hours, there is no issue with me leaving early (or coming in late) on another day. If I work on a weekend, very rare but required about once a year, I take a weekday or two off. It's done on an honor system. If someone abused it, it would probably be noted at review time.
For his dying wife? (Score:2)
If my wife was dying, be prepared to see me maybe 20 hours a week. If that. If not, see ya, everyone is hiring senior security consultants right now.
I don't need people to spend hours in the office, I need people who get shit done. If they can do that in 10 hours or 60 hours, why should I care?
It's a defense contractor, what do you expect? (Score:2)
There's not much room for humanity in a defense business. My experience is that they're all too willing to lie, cheat, bully and steal. I don't work there anymore and won't ever go back to one. Luckily, I got out with my soul intact.
In BC Canada EA lobbied.. (Score:1)
..to strip overtime protections from software workers - successfully, and the horror stories that came out of that..
I'm surprised IT workers haven't unionised.